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Post by cloud9 on Mar 31, 2019 12:34:38 GMT
By expressing honest criticism, unpopular opinions, and solutions that somehow pisses you off that I'm not a kiss-ass "fan"? I don't care about your sensitive feelings. I meant what I said and I said what I meant. There's a block button. I suggest you use it. It's not about being a "kiss-ass" fan. You don't like the games. Period. You're not a fan, kiss-ass or otherwise.
I don't need to block you, or anyone, but what I said was the truth. Or are you denying that you hate all BW games?
I don't have to explain myself to you. Other than that, you are free to think about me as you please.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 21:35:24 GMT
I disagree. That's a great scene. I think it's a terrible scene. Ryder waiting off camera to enter stage left, Drack immediately spilling his guts about everything, Lexi not locking down the examination room, during a patient examination, so that nobody enters while she is working. Like, imagine just strolling in the examination room, right on time for Kallo Jath's colonoscopy. That's right, now you're scarred for life. The entire scene is so obviously staged, it's like someone wrote a screenplay when they were sixteen, got rejected, but somehow thought this scene was so good, that he switched it up, added aliens to the mix and called it a day. It's amateurish. It's so bad it's comical. It's not only that, it's clear that the person who wrote this, did not want to write a scene for video games, or anything video game related, but was simply not talented enough to make it big anywhere else, that this is the best writing job he can get. And you can bet, he hates it.
AFAIK, examinations rooms are not locked on purpose. They don't even want you locking the bathrooms when you're in them... in case assistance has to be called in ASAP (e.g. patient has a heart attack and a crash cart needs to be rushed in, etc.), so I would consider that to be a pretty silly criticism of the game.
Camera angles are often a little buggy/janky in most games I've played. For example, I can't count te number of times my view of my own PC has been completely obscurred by an NPC's armor in Fallout 4 and even noticed it in TW3. I've even had it happen in RDR2. ME1 had it. As did ME2 and ME3... as well as instances where NPCs would look the wrong way... or even have it so their heads would spin like in The Exorcist. I'm not a programmer, so I don't know the bug that causes it, but certainly Bioware is not the only company plagued by such issues.
I'm not sure where you get "Ryder waiting off camera." Lexi summons Ryder with an email saying she's concerned about Drack. The cut scene triggers when Ryder opens Lexi's door. Drack also hardly spills everything immediately. You're also off based about Drack spilling his cuts immediately. He clearly hesitates telling Lexi first that it's OK. She cuts in and gives him heck and tells him to fight smart. Clearly, how Drack is able to perform on the battlefield is a concern for Ryder, so Ryder inquires about what's wrong and Drack provides the details.
If you're going to criticize a scene based on a YouTube video (since you've obviously not played the game through that part), then at least watch a complete video...
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2019 22:51:56 GMT
I suppose Bio could have whipped up a curtain for the scene, but I don't think the ROI is there.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 31, 2019 23:49:19 GMT
AFAIK, examinations rooms are not locked on purpose. They don't even want you locking the bathrooms when you're in them... in case assistance has to be called in ASAP (e.g. patient has a heart attack and a crash cart needs to be rushed in, etc.), so I would consider that to be a pretty silly criticism of the game.
Camera angles are often a little buggy/janky in most games I've played. For example, I can't count te number of times my view of my own PC has been completely obscurred by an NPC's armor in Fallout 4 and even noticed it in TW3. I've even had it happen in RDR2. ME1 had it. As did ME2 and ME3... as well as instances where NPCs would look the wrong way... or even have it so their heads would spin like in The Exorcist. I'm not a programmer, so I don't know the bug that causes it, but certainly Bioware is not the only company plagued by such issues.
I'm not sure where you get "Ryder waiting off camera." Lexi summons Ryder with an email saying she's concerned about Drack. The cut scene triggers when Ryder opens Lexi's door. Drack also hardly spills everything immediately. You're also off based about Drack spilling his cuts immediately. He clearly hesitates telling Lexi first that it's OK. She cuts in and gives him heck and tells him to fight smart. Clearly, how Drack is able to perform on the battlefield is a concern for Ryder, so Ryder inquires about what's wrong and Drack provides the details.
If you're going to criticize a scene based on a YouTube video (since you've obviously not played the game through that part), then at least watch a complete video...
There has to be some privacy in the examination room. Secondly, if someone's going for a check up and needs a crash cart, you're probably doing something wrong, or its too late to be bothering with a routine examination. Also, hospital locks. Not like the locks you have at home, much easier to open, dashing three feet to unlock it and right back isn't going to kill your patient, he can probably take those 3 seconds unassisted, not to mention, you're gonna need to jump out and call for help. Not to mention future doors/locks. A simple voice command would probably do.
The camera isn't janky, the setup of the scene is like it was cobbled up hastily together. Like you're in a Hollywood soundstage and if you move the camera a little bit, you're gonna see the buffet and Larry chomping on some snacks. I don't know who Larry is, it just sounds like a Larry thing to do. The point is, it's static and comes off as fake, which is why you don't see movies put that little effort in scenes like these. In a 3D cutscene, where all the props are readily available, there no need for sound, lighting crew etc. to hide, in order to set it up like this, is poor execution.
So Lexi breaks doctor/patient confidentiality protocol and informs Ryder to drop by, just in time to see Drack and as he walks in, nobody acknowledges he is already in there, both Lexi and Drack go on as if he's not there and Scott still doesn't understand what's going on, after a whole minute of exposition. What a complete idiot. Not to mention Drack isn't even upset that his doctor betrayed his trust and called Ryder in there. This is why I keep saying Andromeda's characters don't react the way normal people would.
To tell you the truth, I don't remember that part at all, granted I didn't play Andromeda that much, because I didn't like it, so I probably never made it to it. But no, thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 0:32:22 GMT
AFAIK, examinations rooms are not locked on purpose. They don't even want you locking the bathrooms when you're in them... in case assistance has to be called in ASAP (e.g. patient has a heart attack and a crash cart needs to be rushed in, etc.), so I would consider that to be a pretty silly criticism of the game.
Camera angles are often a little buggy/janky in most games I've played. For example, I can't count te number of times my view of my own PC has been completely obscurred by an NPC's armor in Fallout 4 and even noticed it in TW3. I've even had it happen in RDR2. ME1 had it. As did ME2 and ME3... as well as instances where NPCs would look the wrong way... or even have it so their heads would spin like in The Exorcist. I'm not a programmer, so I don't know the bug that causes it, but certainly Bioware is not the only company plagued by such issues.
I'm not sure where you get "Ryder waiting off camera." Lexi summons Ryder with an email saying she's concerned about Drack. The cut scene triggers when Ryder opens Lexi's door. Drack also hardly spills everything immediately. You're also off based about Drack spilling his cuts immediately. He clearly hesitates telling Lexi first that it's OK. She cuts in and gives him heck and tells him to fight smart. Clearly, how Drack is able to perform on the battlefield is a concern for Ryder, so Ryder inquires about what's wrong and Drack provides the details.
If you're going to criticize a scene based on a YouTube video (since you've obviously not played the game through that part), then at least watch a complete video...
There has to be some privacy in the examination room. Secondly, if someone's going for a check up and needs a crash cart, you're probably doing something wrong, or its too late to be bothering with a routine examination. Also, hospital locks. Not like the locks you have at home, much easier to open, dashing three feet to unlock it and right back isn't going to kill your patient, he can probably take those 3 seconds unassisted, not to mention, you're gonna need to jump out and call for help. Not to mention future doors/locks. A simple voice command would probably do.
The camera isn't janky, the setup of the scene is like it was cobbled up hastily together. Like you're in a Hollywood soundstage and if you move the camera a little bit, you're gonna see the buffet and Larry chomping on some snacks. I don't know who Larry is, it just sounds like a Larry thing to do. The point is, it's static and comes off as fake, which is why you don't see movies put that little effort in scenes like these. In a 3D cutscene, where all the props are readily available, there no need for sound, lighting crew etc. to hide, in order to set it up like this, is poor execution.
So Lexi breaks doctor/patient confidentiality protocol and informs Ryder to drop by, just in time to see Drack and as he walks in, nobody acknowledges he is already in there, both Lexi and Drack go on as if he's not there and Scott still doesn't understand what's going on, after a whole minute of exposition. What a complete idiot. Not to mention Drack isn't even upset that his doctor betrayed his trust and called Ryder in there. This is why I keep saying Andromeda's characters don't react the way normal people would.
To tell you the truth, I don't remember that part at all, granted I didn't play Andromeda that much, because I didn't like it, so I probably never made it to it. But no, thanks.
... jump out and call for help? Docs around here push a button inside the room and I've never noticed them locking a door... and some clinics here and virtually all hospital emergency rooms are so overcrowded, I had seen them examining patients in alcoves along the hallways separated by only a curtain. Quite often really ill patients have to wait in those hallways for 20 or more hours before they can be admitted (i.e. before someone else gets released to free up a bed).
Also, Lexi is the only doc they have on the ship, it's not like there's any different place to go regardless of whether you have a sore muscle or are having a symptoms of a heart attack. While maybe this never occurs in your neck of the woods... it does in mine and I'm betting I live closer to where Bioware is than you do.
I found the scene quite acceptable; that is, I've seen a lot worse in other games. Probably the difference is that I did enjoy Andromeda... so I'm not looking for exaggerated excuses to criticize it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 0:53:20 GMT
... jump out and call for help? Docs around here push a button inside the room and I've never noticed them locking a door... and some clinics here and virtually all hospital emergency rooms are so overcrowded, I had seen them examining patients in alcoves along the hallways separated by only a curtain. Quite often really ill patients have to wait in those hallways for 20 or more hours before they can be admitted (i.e. before someone else gets released to free up a bed).
Also, Lexi is the only doc they have on the ship, it's not like there's any different place to go regardless of whether you have a sore muscle or are having a symptoms of a heart attack. While maybe this never occurs in your neck of the woods... it does in mine and I'm betting I live closer to where Bioware is than you do.
I found the scene quite acceptable; that is, I've seen a lot worse in other games. Probably the difference is that I did enjoy Andromeda... so I'm not looking for exaggerated excuses to criticize it.
Where do you live that hospitals and clinics are like that?
One doctor for an entire arc? I mean, it's only what? Ten thousand people? I'm sure she can handle them.
Here's the thing; even my favourite game has flaws and I am willing to admit them and point them out, because I want the developer to improve, because I want better games. All games have flaws and it's up to us to give the needed feedback. Games don't just magically end up good, nor do they end up good if we blind ourselves to their faults. This scene is lazy, it is lazy from the direction, to the delivery, to the dialogue, it is, like I said, approaching an otherwise very interesting issue, with the subtlety of a garbage truck hitting a lemonade stand. It could be done so much better and be more impactful and poignant, but most of all, realistic. Because Drack's issue is a real issue, there are people that joined the military and didn't return home intact. Even people without any military association have had to deal with shit like that. But it's fine for you, so let's leave it at that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 1, 2019 1:46:17 GMT
One doctor for an entire arc? I mean, it's only what? Ten thousand people? I'm sure she can handle them. Come on, it’s obvious that the ship they were talking about was the Tempest not the Hyperion. So ten people not ten thousand (each ark holds twenty thousand btw).
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 4:25:22 GMT
I can't follow this argument. Why would Lexi have locked the door? In some alternate universe where she was giving Kallo a colonoscopy, sure. But she wasn't doing that, and knew she wasn't.
And the "Ryder waiting off camera stage left" bit is a bit weird. He hasn't come in the door when the scene starts. Did they need to put the door in-frame? If so, why?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 7:33:59 GMT
... jump out and call for help? Docs around here push a button inside the room and I've never noticed them locking a door... and some clinics here and virtually all hospital emergency rooms are so overcrowded, I had seen them examining patients in alcoves along the hallways separated by only a curtain. Quite often really ill patients have to wait in those hallways for 20 or more hours before they can be admitted (i.e. before someone else gets released to free up a bed).
Also, Lexi is the only doc they have on the ship, it's not like there's any different place to go regardless of whether you have a sore muscle or are having a symptoms of a heart attack. While maybe this never occurs in your neck of the woods... it does in mine and I'm betting I live closer to where Bioware is than you do.
I found the scene quite acceptable; that is, I've seen a lot worse in other games. Probably the difference is that I did enjoy Andromeda... so I'm not looking for exaggerated excuses to criticize it.
Where do you live that hospitals and clinics are like that?
One doctor for an entire arc? I mean, it's only what? Ten thousand people? I'm sure she can handle them.
Here's the thing; even my favourite game has flaws and I am willing to admit them and point them out, because I want the developer to improve, because I want better games. All games have flaws and it's up to us to give the needed feedback. Games don't just magically end up good, nor do they end up good if we blind ourselves to their faults. This scene is lazy, it is lazy from the direction, to the delivery, to the dialogue, it is, like I said, approaching an otherwise very interesting issue, with the subtlety of a garbage truck hitting a lemonade stand. It could be done so much better and be more impactful and poignant, but most of all, realistic. Because Drack's issue is a real issue, there are people that joined the military and didn't return home intact. Even people without any military association have had to deal with shit like that. But it's fine for you, so let's leave it at that.
Alberta, Canada - Same province as Bioware's HQ. A change in government policy several years ago has resulted in shortages of clinics, doctors and hospital beds. You can google it and I'm sure a number of newspaper articles will come up.
As alanc9 pointed out... Lexi is NOT giving Drack a colonoscopy. She's obviously running a series of scans that are not very invasive. Drack still has his armor on. How many times in Star Trek have we seen people enter Bones' med bay while he was scanning/examining patients, hun? Also, I don't think Lexi says anything that violates doctor patient confidentiality, including what might have been overheard by Ryder before opening the door and entering the room. Nothing specific is revealed until Drack reveals it himself.
Also, I've "admitted" to several flaws in ME:A. You can read through my posts here if you want. I don't, however, feel the need to exaggerate things or misrepresent reality just to make the flaws seem worse than they really are... let alone make a bunch of clearly wrong assumptions about the scene itself. It was obvious from your first post that you had not even considered the possibility of Lexi having asked Ryder to come to her lab. You're still failing to recognize the nature of the examination in progress as Ryder enters the lab. You failed insisted that Drack just immediately spilled his guts to Ryder when he clearly needed some prompting from Lexi to do so. You failed to consider that how well Drack can perform in combat is a direct concern and responsibility of Ryder's.
It's not a perfect scene, but I HAVE seen far worse in lots of video games. Anything at all can ALWAYS be done better. Trashing it utterly and not being even fully aware of the entire sequence of events, as you have done, is NOT (IMO) constructive criticism.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 12:24:39 GMT
Alberta, Canada - Same province as Bioware's HQ. A change in government policy several years ago has resulted in shortages of clinics, doctors and hospital beds. You can google it and I'm sure a number of newspaper articles will come up.
As alanc9 pointed out... Lexi is NOT giving Drack a colonoscopy. She's obviously running a series of scans that are not very invasive. Drack still has his armor on. How many times in Star Trek have we seen people enter Bones' med bay while he was scanning/examining patients, hun? Also, I don't think Lexi says anything that violates doctor patient confidentiality, including what might have been overheard by Ryder before opening the door and entering the room. Nothing specific is revealed until Drack reveals it himself.
Also, I've "admitted" to several flaws in ME:A. You can read through my posts here if you want. I don't, however, feel the need to exaggerate things or misrepresent reality just to make the flaws seem worse than they really are... let alone make a bunch of clearly wrong assumptions about the scene itself. It was obvious from your first post that you had not even considered the possibility of Lexi having asked Ryder to come to her lab. You're still failing to recognize the nature of the examination in progress as Ryder enters the lab. You failed insisted that Drack just immediately spilled his guts to Ryder when he clearly needed some prompting from Lexi to do so. You failed to consider that how well Drack can perform in combat is a direct concern and responsibility of Ryder's.
It's not a perfect scene, but I HAVE seen far worse in lots of video games. Anything at all can ALWAYS be done better. Trashing it utterly and not being even fully aware of the entire sequence of events, as you have done, is NOT (IMO) constructive criticism.
What you described sounded more like a warzone's infirmary, on a busy day, than a hospital. I had no idea, honestly, since I had heard nothing about it and it severely damages my opinion of health care in Canada. I am really sorry to hear that.
Thank God it's not a colonoscopy. And yes, that did happen in Star Trek quite often. A show from the 1960s. And it worked for the 1960s, since the tech back then was much worse, TV shows had a much smaller budget and setting up the props, lighting and audio devices, required time and effort from a large number of people and on a per episode basis. Constraints that none of which are applicable to a video game, much less a triple A one, in 2017. It's cool if you wanted to imitate the style, as an homage, but the standards of video games have shot up so high in the past decade, that it just ends up lacking, amateurish and lazy, instead.
It is good that you have admitted to several of Andromeda's flaws, it shows that you have a mind open to criticism and are willing to debate it, as you are currently doing. That in itself, speaks volumes about the quality of the person that you are and I'm saying this in all honesty, you are a rare person to come by and I appreciate you, your courage to speak, defend and argue your opinion here with me, as well as the patience to handle my wise ass and lame attempts at colonoscopy jokes.
I am not failing to recognize the nature of the examination, it is exactly because I recognize the nature of the examination that I have a problem with how Ryder walks in, how nobody acknowledges him being there, for an entire minute, until he steps into the shot and I also did not fail to recognize that Drack spilled his guts to Ryder. The resistance he displayed was tantamount to Anakin Skywalker trying to hold back from decapitating Count Dooku and Palpatine telling him "do it" exactly once. And maybe it's because Drack isn't a trained jedi knight, so he is weak willed, or maybe he has some sort of internal struggle, but that isn't in any way portrayed here, neither in a visual queue, nor in the delivery of Drack's VA and nowhere in the game, till the point that I dropped it, did I get the impression that Drack was a cowardly, weak willed Krogan. Neither of which could be explained away or rectified by further exposition, but is a very basic flaw at how this scene is approached in itself.
And it's not that the scene is incorrigibly bad, it's okay. It's serviceable, but lazily put together and served for easy drama. It fails to realize why it is so important and why a more subtle approach would be more impactful. It gets the point across, but it is in no way, as smilesja put it "one of the most emotional scenes in the game. Not just the game but in the series" to quote him directly. It could be, it has the potential to be, but Drack has to earn it, the writing has to support it and the director needs to know how to execute it. On the other hand, the vision for this scene might have been entirely different in the first place, but due to Frostbyte problems, this is how it turned out in the end. Which I can understand completely, but dude, they have to do find a solution to that, it is killing them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 13:09:42 GMT
Alberta, Canada - Same province as Bioware's HQ. A change in government policy several years ago has resulted in shortages of clinics, doctors and hospital beds. You can google it and I'm sure a number of newspaper articles will come up.
As alanc9 pointed out... Lexi is NOT giving Drack a colonoscopy. She's obviously running a series of scans that are not very invasive. Drack still has his armor on. How many times in Star Trek have we seen people enter Bones' med bay while he was scanning/examining patients, hun? Also, I don't think Lexi says anything that violates doctor patient confidentiality, including what might have been overheard by Ryder before opening the door and entering the room. Nothing specific is revealed until Drack reveals it himself.
Also, I've "admitted" to several flaws in ME:A. You can read through my posts here if you want. I don't, however, feel the need to exaggerate things or misrepresent reality just to make the flaws seem worse than they really are... let alone make a bunch of clearly wrong assumptions about the scene itself. It was obvious from your first post that you had not even considered the possibility of Lexi having asked Ryder to come to her lab. You're still failing to recognize the nature of the examination in progress as Ryder enters the lab. You failed insisted that Drack just immediately spilled his guts to Ryder when he clearly needed some prompting from Lexi to do so. You failed to consider that how well Drack can perform in combat is a direct concern and responsibility of Ryder's.
It's not a perfect scene, but I HAVE seen far worse in lots of video games. Anything at all can ALWAYS be done better. Trashing it utterly and not being even fully aware of the entire sequence of events, as you have done, is NOT (IMO) constructive criticism.
What you described sounded more like a warzone's infirmary, on a busy day, than a hospital. I had no idea, honestly, since I had heard nothing about it and it severely damages my opinion of health care in Canada. I am really sorry to hear that.
Thank God it's not a colonoscopy. And yes, that did happen in Star Trek quite often. A show from the 1960s. And it worked for the 1960s, since the tech back then was much worse, TV shows had a much smaller budget and setting up the props, lighting and audio devices, required time and effort from a large number of people and on a per episode basis. Constraints that none of which are applicable to a video game, much less a triple A one, in 2017. It's cool if you wanted to imitate the style, as an homage, but the standards of video games have shot up so high in the past decade, that it just ends up lacking, amateurish and lazy, instead.
It is good that you have admitted to several of Andromeda's flaws, it shows that you have a mind open to criticism and are willing to debate it, as you are currently doing. That in itself, speaks volumes about the quality of the person that you are and I'm saying this in all honesty, you are a rare person to come by and I appreciate you, your courage to speak, defend and argue your opinion here with me, as well as the patience to handle my wise ass and lame attempts at colonoscopy jokes.
I am not failing to recognize the nature of the examination, it is exactly because I recognize the nature of the examination that I have a problem with how Ryder walks in, how nobody acknowledges him being there, for an entire minute, until he steps into the shot and I also did not fail to recognize that Drack spilled his guts to Ryder. The resistance he displayed was tantamount to Anakin Skywalker trying to hold back from decapitating Count Dooku and Palpatine telling him "do it" exactly once. And maybe it's because Drack isn't a trained jedi knight, so he is weak willed, or maybe he has some sort of internal struggle, but that isn't in any way portrayed here, neither in a visual queue, nor in the delivery of Drack's VA and nowhere in the game, till the point that I dropped it, did I get the impression that Drack was a cowardly, weak willed Krogan. Neither of which could be explained away or rectified by further exposition, but is a very basic flaw at how this scene is approached in itself.
And it's not that the scene is incorrigibly bad, it's okay. It's serviceable, but lazily put together and served for easy drama. It fails to realize why it is so important and why a more subtle approach would be more impactful. It gets the point across, but it is in no way, as smilesja put it "one of the most emotional scenes in the game. Not just the game but in the series" to quote him directly. It could be, it has the potential to be, but Drack has to earn it, the writing has to support it and the director needs to know how to execute it. On the other hand, the vision for this scene might have been entirely different in the first place, but due to Frostbyte problems, this is how it turned out in the end. Which I can understand completely, but dude, they have to do find a solution to that, it is killing them.
Star Trek also continued to interrupt the docs in their med bay during examinations through the sequels (Star Trek TNG and Voyageur). I'm pretty confident it was not considered serious because of the non-invasive scanning technology they used... again, which Lexi is also using something similar. It's not like Lexi is in the middle of replacing Drack's parts... she's simply scanning them and perhaps recalibrating them. There's nothing for Ryder to have seen that's invasive.
You may want to read the thread currently discussing the Frostbyte engine. I was originally convinced that Frostbyte was the problem with the facial animations, but there are others participating in the thread right now who seem quite knowledgeable about now different tools are used and then later tied into Frostbyte that is causing me to wonder about that. I still believe, however, the Bioware has no real choice but to use Frostbyte since it is EA's engine. However, I do expeect that as they continue to gain experience using it, things will continue to improve in each subsequent game.
I also wouldn't describe any of the developers who make these complex games "lazy." I think the devs put a tremendous amount of energy into making them and each one is taking longer and logner to produce as the games themselves are so much bigger and so much more complex than they were when ME1 was released.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 14:22:30 GMT
Star Trek also continued to interrupt the docs in their med bay during examinations through the sequels (Star Trek TNG and Voyageur). I'm pretty confident it was not considered serious because of the non-invasive scanning technology they used... again, which Lexi is also using something similar. It's not like Lexi is in the middle of replacing Drack's parts... she's simply scanning them and perhaps recalibrating them. There's nothing for Ryder to have seen that's invasive.
You may want to read the thread currently discussing the Frostbyte engine. I was originally convinced that Frostbyte was the problem with the facial animations, but there are others participating in the thread right now who seem quite knowledgeable about now different tools are used and then later tied into Frostbyte that is causing me to wonder about that. I still believe, however, the Bioware has no real choice but to use Frostbyte since it is EA's engine. However, I do expeect that as they continue to gain experience using it, things will continue to improve in each subsequent game.
I also wouldn't describe any of the developers who make these complex games "lazy." I think the devs put a tremendous amount of energy into making them and each one is taking longer and logner to produce as the games themselves are so much bigger and so much more complex than they were when ME1 was released.
TNG usually did it in cases where the afflicted one was usually in the presence of those visiting the infirmary, or where carried in there by them, or crew members close enough to the afflicted to warrant them being there, so they were usually already privy to the situation. Or, like many people in recovery, had visiting hours. Also, I don't think any of those scenes had the gravity Drack's scene intended to have. Not an excuse, for sure, but there were a lot more scenes like that shot, not all with the same importance, makes sense they wouldn't be as impactful or as expertly shot. Still, though, usually better shot and delivered than in TOS.
I don't know if the specific scene was intended to look like that from the start, or there was a different vision for it. Maybe they couldn't get it to work as originally intended or other problems piling up that considerably reduced the amount of work/time they could allocate to these scene that prevented it from making it better, i.e. dedicating the writing/animating/scene building polish that would elevate the scene.
To make it perfectly clear, I do not intend to diminish the work put in these games, there are reports of people not even going home on weekends for the "crunch time" of development. Jason Schreier's article about the team doing their best to keep the game from breaking down left and right, clearly puts that into perspective. It's not that they intentionally did a lazy job, most likely. It's all they could get away with working. It comes off as lazy, compared to how other games approach similar issues though and due to Ben Irving's interpretation of transparency, "things that were true at the time, become not true" and expect everyone else, including reviewers, to be okay with it, when other games either do deliver on their claims, or don't make Bioware's ridiculous and unfeasible claims in the first place. So why should Bioware become exempt?
And speaking of, if Ben wants to talk transparency, where was the transparency when the things promised got cut? That's not very transparent of you, Ben. Just saying. And, frankly, if Bioware was more open with the problems of their development cycle, we would have been more understanding and a lot less critical of their work. But being open about how troubled your development is doesn't sell copies. I think the solution lies elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 14:59:15 GMT
Star Trek also continued to interrupt the docs in their med bay during examinations through the sequels (Star Trek TNG and Voyageur). I'm pretty confident it was not considered serious because of the non-invasive scanning technology they used... again, which Lexi is also using something similar. It's not like Lexi is in the middle of replacing Drack's parts... she's simply scanning them and perhaps recalibrating them. There's nothing for Ryder to have seen that's invasive.
You may want to read the thread currently discussing the Frostbyte engine. I was originally convinced that Frostbyte was the problem with the facial animations, but there are others participating in the thread right now who seem quite knowledgeable about now different tools are used and then later tied into Frostbyte that is causing me to wonder about that. I still believe, however, the Bioware has no real choice but to use Frostbyte since it is EA's engine. However, I do expeect that as they continue to gain experience using it, things will continue to improve in each subsequent game.
I also wouldn't describe any of the developers who make these complex games "lazy." I think the devs put a tremendous amount of energy into making them and each one is taking longer and logner to produce as the games themselves are so much bigger and so much more complex than they were when ME1 was released.
TNG usually did it in cases where the afflicted one was usually in the presence of those visiting the infirmary, or where carried in there by them, or crew members close enough to the afflicted to warrant them being there, so they were usually already privy to the situation. Or, like many people in recovery, had visiting hours. Also, I don't think any of those scenes had the gravity Drack's scene intended to have. Not an excuse, for sure, but there were a lot more scenes like that shot, not all with the same importance, makes sense they wouldn't be as impactful or as expertly shot. Still, though, usually better shot and delivered than in TOS.
I don't know if the specific scene was intended to look like that from the start, or there was a different vision for it. Maybe they couldn't get it to work as originally intended or other problems piling up that considerably reduced the amount of work/time they could allocate to these scene that prevented it from making it better, i.e. dedicating the writing/animating/scene building polish that would elevate the scene.
To make it perfectly clear, I do not intend to diminish the work put in these games, there are reports of people not even going home on weekends for the "crunch time" of development. Jason Schreier's article about the team doing their best to keep the game from breaking down left and right, clearly puts that into perspective. It's not that they intentionally did a lazy job, most likely. It's all they could get away with working. It comes off as lazy, compared to how other games approach similar issues though and due to Ben Irving's interpretation of transparency, "things that were true at the time, become not true" and expect everyone else, including reviewers, to be okay with it, when other games either do deliver on their claims, or don't make Bioware's ridiculous and unfeasible claims in the first place. So why should Bioware become exempt?
And speaking of, if Ben wants to talk transparency, where was the transparency when the things promised got cut? That's not very transparent of you, Ben. Just saying. And, frankly, if Bioware was more open with the problems of their development cycle, we would have been more understanding and a lot less critical of their work. But being open about how troubled your development is doesn't sell copies. I think the solution lies elsewhere.
Bioware is certainly not exempt from criticism... but effectively calling them lazy is, don't you think, a level beyond that? Your tone has changed significantly throughout this thread, so perhaps go back a reread your OP and second posts with eyes open to see how they unnecessarily exaggerate the issue with the scene and how unfair to the devs those posts actually are. As for transparency, I believe the level of memes and other forms of exaggerated criticisms have contributed to the devs not wanting to participate in open discourse with the fans. It's exhausting to have to defend every hard choice they have to make to, as you now admit, just to get some things to work... and then do it over and over again individually to each and every fan who tweets or posts the same criticism. It takes away time that is probably better spent just working on the game itself. A Bioware PR rep recently stated as much in an article.
If things are going to improve in the relationship between devs and fans, I think it's up to the fans to change how they approach criticizing the devs with a view to be more encouraging... or at least refraining from continually blowing things out of proportion in addition to at least occasionally showing some understanding regarding the technical challenges in developing a "just a game."
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Post by Iakus on Apr 1, 2019 15:01:11 GMT
TNG usually did it in cases where the afflicted one was usually in the presence of those visiting the infirmary, or where carried in there by them, or crew members close enough to the afflicted to warrant them being there, so they were usually already privy to the situation. Or, like many people in recovery, had visiting hours. Also, I don't think any of those scenes had the gravity Drack's scene intended to have. Not an excuse, for sure, but there were a lot more scenes like that shot, not all with the same importance, makes sense they wouldn't be as impactful or as expertly shot. Still, though, usually better shot and delivered than in TOS.
I don't know if the specific scene was intended to look like that from the start, or there was a different vision for it. Maybe they couldn't get it to work as originally intended or other problems piling up that considerably reduced the amount of work/time they could allocate to these scene that prevented it from making it better, i.e. dedicating the writing/animating/scene building polish that would elevate the scene.
To make it perfectly clear, I do not intend to diminish the work put in these games, there are reports of people not even going home on weekends for the "crunch time" of development. Jason Schreier's article about the team doing their best to keep the game from breaking down left and right, clearly puts that into perspective. It's not that they intentionally did a lazy job, most likely. It's all they could get away with working. It comes off as lazy, compared to how other games approach similar issues though and due to Ben Irving's interpretation of transparency, "things that were true at the time, become not true" and expect everyone else, including reviewers, to be okay with it, when other games either do deliver on their claims, or don't make Bioware's ridiculous and unfeasible claims in the first place. So why should Bioware become exempt?
And speaking of, if Ben wants to talk transparency, where was the transparency when the things promised got cut? That's not very transparent of you, Ben. Just saying. And, frankly, if Bioware was more open with the problems of their development cycle, we would have been more understanding and a lot less critical of their work. But being open about how troubled your development is doesn't sell copies. I think the solution lies elsewhere.
Bioware is certainly not exempt from criticism... but effectively calling them lazy is, don't you think, a level beyond that? Your tone has changed significantly throughout this thread, so perhaps go back a reread your OP and second posts with eyes open to see how they unnecessarily exaggerate the issue with the scene and how unfair to the devs those posts actually are. As for transparency, I believe the level of memes and other forms of exaggerated criticisms have contributed to the devs not wanting to participate in open discourse with the fans. It's exhausting to have to defend every hard choice they have to make to, as you now admit, just to get some things to work... and then do it over and over again individually to each and every fan who tweets or posts the same criticism. It takes away time that is probably better spent just working on the game itself. A Bioware PR rep recently stated as much in an article.
If things are going to improve in the relationship between devs and fans, I think it's up to the fans to change how they approach criticizing the devs with a view to be more encouraging... or at least refraining from continually blowing things out of proportion in addition to at least occasionally showing some understanding regarding the technical challenges in developing a "just a game."
I guess we're just confused and needs more "clarity and closure"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 15:26:16 GMT
Bioware is certainly not exempt from criticism... but effectively calling them lazy is, don't you think, a level beyond that? Your tone has changed significantly throughout this thread, so perhaps go back a reread your OP and second posts with eyes open to see how they unnecessarily exaggerate the issue with the scene and how unfair to the devs those posts actually are. As for transparency, I believe the level of memes and other forms of exaggerated criticisms have contributed to the devs not wanting to participate in open discourse with the fans. It's exhausting to have to defend every hard choice they have to make to, as you now admit, just to get some things to work... and then do it over and over again individually to each and every fan who tweets or posts the same criticism. It takes away time that is probably better spent just working on the game itself. A Bioware PR rep recently stated as much in an article.
If things are going to improve in the relationship between devs and fans, I think it's up to the fans to change how they approach criticizing the devs with a view to be more encouraging... or at least refraining from continually blowing things out of proportion in addition to at least occasionally showing some understanding regarding the technical challenges in developing a "just a game."
I guess we're just confused and needs more "clarity and closure" The bottom line is whether or not the fans actually want the level of hostility between fans and devs to grow or diminish... or whether they want to continue to drive the devs into communicating more or less. Escalating the memes, rants, etc. and carrying on over ME3 for all this time hasn't worked, has it... and it's been, what, 7 years now, since ME3?... but by all means, just carry on. Don't let an unwilling to "blink" prevent you from defeating yourselves.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 1, 2019 15:35:09 GMT
I guess we're just confused and needs more "clarity and closure" The bottom line is whether or not the fans actually want the level of hostility between fans and devs to grow or diminish... or whether they want to continue to drive the devs into communicating more or less. Escalating the memes, rants, etc. and carrying on over ME3 for all this time hasn't worked, has it... and it's been, what, 7 years now, since ME3?... but by all means, just carry on. Don't let an unwilling to "blink" prevent you from defeating yourselves. You're conveniently skipping over this important detail:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 15:41:48 GMT
The bottom line is whether or not the fans actually want the level of hostility between fans and devs to grow or diminish... or whether they want to continue to drive the devs into communicating more or less. Escalating the memes, rants, etc. and carrying on over ME3 for all this time hasn't worked, has it... and it's been, what, 7 years now, since ME3?... but by all means, just carry on. Don't let an unwilling to "blink" prevent you from defeating yourselves. You're conveniently skipping over this important detail: How did Bioware make any "ridiculous and unfeasible claims" about Drack's scene under discussion? I never heard them make any representations about it at all. It certainly wasn't material shown before the game's release that was later cut... so, equate that with the claim that the scene is arbitrarily and just assumed to be "lazily constructed."
As I recall, one of the more common complaints made here and on the old BSN prior to ME:A's release is that they weren't communicating hardly any details at all about the game and how it was progressing.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 17:59:23 GMT
Bioware is certainly not exempt from criticism... but effectively calling them lazy is, don't you think, a level beyond that? Your tone has changed significantly throughout this thread, so perhaps go back a reread your OP and second posts with eyes open to see how they unnecessarily exaggerate the issue with the scene and how unfair to the devs those posts actually are. As for transparency, I believe the level of memes and other forms of exaggerated criticisms have contributed to the devs not wanting to participate in open discourse with the fans. It's exhausting to have to defend every hard choice they have to make to, as you now admit, just to get some things to work... and then do it over and over again individually to each and every fan who tweets or posts the same criticism. It takes away time that is probably better spent just working on the game itself. A Bioware PR rep recently stated as much in an article.
If things are going to improve in the relationship between devs and fans, I think it's up to the fans to change how they approach criticizing the devs with a view to be more encouraging... or at least refraining from continually blowing things out of proportion in addition to at least occasionally showing some understanding regarding the technical challenges in developing a "just a game."
I hear you. I am still calling the execution lazy and unimaginative. Andromeda in general is one of the worst written Bioware games I've ever played and there is no excuse for its writing quality. On the other hand, I believe it to be a problem from bleed of talent Bioware has had over the years, the new talent wanting to make its own path perhaps(?), engine problems and missteps from upper management, as well as a lack of transparency. I am guessing there are reasons behind these scenes being "lazily" put together and it runs deeper than just artistic vision, but we don't know that, it was never communicated to us and it was definitely not marketed as such. As a final product, Andromeda was subpar, to say the least and completely unworthy of a $60 price tag. Not to mention the ludicrously priced special editions. But that is neither the Bioware I want, nor the one I know. And the public will stomach only so much things that are true and that become untrue because of transparency.
By the way, and this goes out to Ben Irving of Bioware, where was that supposed transparency when those true things became not true? Not communicating that to the fanbase wasn't very transparent of him. Sorry, but I'm not going to get over that statement of his any time soon.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 18:54:09 GMT
I am not failing to recognize the nature of the examination, it is exactly because I recognize the nature of the examination that I have a problem with how Ryder walks in, how nobody acknowledges him being there, for an entire minute, until he steps into the shot and I also did not fail to recognize that Drack spilled his guts to Ryder. The italed is simply false. Ryder isn't in the room until he steps into view. The door mechanism sound can be heard. I think you're confused because the scene jumps back in time about a minute from where you left off with Ryder. I'm not sure what's left of your argument after this. Does it reduce to "Lexi should have locked the door," or is there something more? If it's the former, I'll just reiterate that the procedure Lexi's performing doesn't require this.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 19:16:11 GMT
I am not failing to recognize the nature of the examination, it is exactly because I recognize the nature of the examination that I have a problem with how Ryder walks in, how nobody acknowledges him being there, for an entire minute, until he steps into the shot and I also did not fail to recognize that Drack spilled his guts to Ryder. The italed is simply false. Ryder isn't in the room until he steps into view. The door mechanism sound can be heard. I think you're confused because the scene jumps back in time about a minute from where you left off with Ryder. I'm not sure what's left of your argument after this. Does it reduce to "Lexi should have locked the door," or is there something more? If it's the former, I'll just reiterate that the procedure Lexi's performing doesn't require this. Thanks for entirely dismissing my argument about dialogue, camera placement, voice acting, realism and immersion with just that one line. It's like we weren't even having this discussion, at all. And yes, doctor/patient confidentiality means, unless you want to break that trust and also make yourself liable to a lawsuit, that Lexi should also have locked the door. In this one instance, though, since it was pointed out, Lexi did in fact ask Ryder to come in, just to break that doctor/patient confidentiality. Which doesn't make it right, only more stupid.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 1, 2019 19:27:58 GMT
As captain of the Tempest by being the Pathfinder, Ryder has an exception to the doctor-patient privilege if certain situations are met. For example, if someone is fit for duty which certainly feels close to what is being discussed. Also once they arrive, Drack literally waves the privacy by saying he doesn't mind. We also know that Lexi takes such things seriously, since for example when asking about the crew she says she’ll tell us what she can without breaking it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 19:31:24 GMT
Bioware is certainly not exempt from criticism... but effectively calling them lazy is, don't you think, a level beyond that? Your tone has changed significantly throughout this thread, so perhaps go back a reread your OP and second posts with eyes open to see how they unnecessarily exaggerate the issue with the scene and how unfair to the devs those posts actually are. As for transparency, I believe the level of memes and other forms of exaggerated criticisms have contributed to the devs not wanting to participate in open discourse with the fans. It's exhausting to have to defend every hard choice they have to make to, as you now admit, just to get some things to work... and then do it over and over again individually to each and every fan who tweets or posts the same criticism. It takes away time that is probably better spent just working on the game itself. A Bioware PR rep recently stated as much in an article.
If things are going to improve in the relationship between devs and fans, I think it's up to the fans to change how they approach criticizing the devs with a view to be more encouraging... or at least refraining from continually blowing things out of proportion in addition to at least occasionally showing some understanding regarding the technical challenges in developing a "just a game."
I hear you. I am still calling the execution lazy and unimaginative. Andromeda in general is one of the worst written Bioware games I've ever played and there is no excuse for its writing quality. On the other hand, I believe it to be a problem from bleed of talent Bioware has had over the years, the new talent wanting to make its own path perhaps(?), engine problems and missteps from upper management, as well as a lack of transparency. I am guessing there are reasons behind these scenes being "lazily" put together and it runs deeper than just artistic vision, but we don't know that, it was never communicated to us and it was definitely not marketed as such. As a final product, Andromeda was subpar, to say the least and completely unworthy of a $60 price tag. Not to mention the ludicrously priced special editions. But that is neither the Bioware I want, nor the one I know. And the public will stomach only so much things that are true and that become untrue because of transparency. By the way, Ben Irving, where was your transparency when those true things became not true? Not communicating that to your fanbase wasn't very transparent of you. Sorry, but I'm not going to get over that statement any time soon. That comes down to personal preferences. I disagree in that I found the game a whole lot of fun despite it's flaws and was intrigued by the story as far as it progressed in the game and would love to see where that story goes next. I enjoyed every minute of the combat and found driving the nomad a lot of fun as well. The nomad was certainly a huge, huge improvement over the mako and even the hammerhead (which I personally enjoyed more than mako). It felt like a game to me... not some dark and dire morality-based diatribe and was, IMO, refreshingly different than the OT.
Furthermore, I'm not Ben Irving... I have no idea why you're addressing him in the second person within posts in which you are quoting and responding to me.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 19:46:44 GMT
That comes down to personal preferences. I disagree in that I found the game a whole lot of fun despite it's flaws and was intrigued by the story as far as it progressed in the game and would love to see where that story goes next. I enjoyed every minute of the combat and found driving the nomad a lot of fun as well. The nomad was certainly a huge, huge improvement over the mako and even the hammerhead (which I personally enjoyed more than mako). It felt like a game to me... not some dark and dire morality-based diatribe and was, IMO, refreshingly different than the OT.
Furthermore, I'm not Ben Irving... I have no idea why you're addressing him in the second person within posts in which you are quoting and responding to me.
Again, I am happy that you liked Andromeda, had fun with it, you should also direct your thanks for the Nomad to the NFS team, that did all the work for the driving and handling, but I'm no satisfied with its level of polish, consistency and tone. I think it is a major step back overall and I have no interest in seeing where anything in Andromeda goes from here, pretty much like DA2/DA:I ruined any interest I had in THEDAS.
My complaints towards Ben Irving of course aren't directed at you, those are for the real Ben Irving. I don't know what's going on through that man's head, but that whole post about transparency, if you've heard about it or read it, is just surreal. The man is either lying through his teeth or is severely disconnected from reality. I just needed to get it off my chest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 19:53:37 GMT
That comes down to personal preferences. I disagree in that I found the game a whole lot of fun despite it's flaws and was intrigued by the story as far as it progressed in the game and would love to see where that story goes next. I enjoyed every minute of the combat and found driving the nomad a lot of fun as well. The nomad was certainly a huge, huge improvement over the mako and even the hammerhead (which I personally enjoyed more than mako). It felt like a game to me... not some dark and dire morality-based diatribe and was, IMO, refreshingly different than the OT.
Furthermore, I'm not Ben Irving... I have no idea why you're addressing him in the second person within posts in which you are quoting and responding to me.
Again, I am happy that you liked Andromeda, had fun with it, you should also direct your thanks for the Nomad to the NFS team, that did all the work for the driving and handling, but I'm no satisfied with its level of polish, consistency and tone. I think it is a major step back overall and I have no interest in seeing where anything in Andromeda goes from here, pretty much like DA2/DA:I ruined any interest I had in THEDAS.
My complaints towards Ben Irving of course aren't directed at you, those are for the real Ben Irving. I don't know what's going on through that man's head, but that whole post about transparency, if you've heard about it or read it, is just surreal. The man is either lying through his teeth or is severely disconnected from reality. I just needed to get it off my chest.
Would you please then go back and edit your posts to take those comments directed towards him out of the second person.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 1, 2019 19:59:58 GMT
Again, I am happy that you liked Andromeda, had fun with it, you should also direct your thanks for the Nomad to the NFS team, that did all the work for the driving and handling, but I'm no satisfied with its level of polish, consistency and tone. I think it is a major step back overall and I have no interest in seeing where anything in Andromeda goes from here, pretty much like DA2/DA:I ruined any interest I had in THEDAS.
My complaints towards Ben Irving of course aren't directed at you, those are for the real Ben Irving. I don't know what's going on through that man's head, but that whole post about transparency, if you've heard about it or read it, is just surreal. The man is either lying through his teeth or is severely disconnected from reality. I just needed to get it off my chest.
Would you please then go back and edit your posts to take those comments directed towards him out of the second person. Sure, but is it not clear enough when I say his name, that I am addressing him, not you? I'm pretty sure nobody's going to mistake you for him. So hold on, I'm editing it to clarify it as we speak.
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