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Post by colfoley on Jan 25, 2021 1:48:36 GMT
Wow. There goes my ability to write during lunch like I should be. But that was an interesting read. I actually like what he said about fan desire becoming fan demands. I have observed that is pretty much the number 1 problem with fandom in general and I phrase it as 'expectations are the death of fandom' but I do like this enough where I might adopt it. I almost had a heart attack when they mentioned that they have a thing in dev that will take 2 years to work on....but then of course they whole million typewriter monkey effect is well in effect there. So by that logic I am sure the game will be out next week. Big beards not being face scannable (?) is a bit...off putting as a man who sometimes has a big beard. Not that I mind mind you since I never create me but I suppose that rules out using 'prisoner Oliver' as my basis for my DA 4 character About crunch and scope. In the wake of Cyberpunk and everything else this is probably some of the more interesting comments in the entire thing. I have a theory, or at least several theories about the whole situation that is going to be hard to prove but the more I read about this sort of thing the more I think I am right. But either way I think at least from this commentary that Bio/ EA is in a good head space about this sort of thing. That the idea should be to keep things reasonable, not put in anything too weird mechanically, and focus on editing. Afterall its better, in my mind, to have only aim for England and hit it...rather then aiming for the moon and ending up in the sun. Is it weird that I'm kinda hoping for DA2 2.0? Like, after the massive scope of DAI I'd like a more intimate setting with more personal ties again. Based on everything I would be more then a little surprised if this ends up happening. DA4s plot is going to be very high level in a lot of ways. Still we can hold out hope that some of it will be down to earth and we will still get good characer moments. Inquisition still had a lot of great character moments.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 25, 2021 1:53:52 GMT
Oh man, this is so bad.
"On characters which are quantum (i.e. characters which can die or which can have similar end-states as death in previous games): their being quantum makes it really hard for the devs to work with those characters in subsequent games. The devs naturally aren’t going to put as much effort into characters which could have died previously. A character can have had an amazing appearance throughout/role in a previous game, but if there is a risk of something happening to them and of them being removed [effectively] from the plot, it just doesn’t make sense to have them as a major character in a subsequent game. If a character can, say, sacrifice themselves in some glorious ending, the devs have to make sure that if they use them again, in worldstates where the character didn’t do that, the character is kind of ‘muted’, as the devs don’t want to disrespect the players who made a different choice."
Which completely defeats the purpose of having the choice in the first place. The point of choice is the consequence. All this does is inflict the consequence and remove the choice. Just pick a canon that they're dead and move on, then. It's preferable to this middling shit. You can get away with it in DA, because they're all expendable and replacable, but it doesn't work for ME.
And then this
"If we kept our Wardens as the PC throughout all 3 games, at the end they would be so powerful that it’d be a bit like “Let’s just do [thing], I’ve killed gods before, whatever”. He thinks it’s good that they have fresh characters each time in DA in order to reset that power level. Some people want more Commander Shepard in the next Mass Effect and he feels like, ‘what else could you possibly want / what else could that character possibly do after 3 games?"
You don't have to do something bigger. You have to do something smarter. Also, you absolutely can depower a character. It's called wear and tear. People go through stuff, they get changed, not always for the better, both physically and mentally. Obviously the "mentally" part Bioware in ME didn't get down at all, because they focused on the completely wrong subject for Shepard, but you absolutely can do the physical. Too many past injuries keeping characters down, age, etc. Have Shepard's cybernetics fail, have injuries be persistent, make him vulnerable. The best fight in the entire Trilogy, was the one wit Tela Vasir, another spectre, not a Reaper. There's plenty of people at Shepard's level and that he beat one, doesn't make him unbeatable.
The fuck are ... these people are hacks. Genuine hacks. Do you think James Bond, after 25 movies, is a god trampling down on everyone in his way? We know he's going to win, of course, but the challenges are unique, some greater, some smaller, most of them good and some of them are great even. Jon, you're basically making your company out to be creatively bankrupt. At least the writing staff. This is unbelievable.
James Bond is literally an entirely different situataion. Different medium for starters and entirely different means of telling a story. James Bond is, until the Craig years, entirely episodic. His powerlevels and character would almost entirely reset from movie to movie in as much there was almost nil continuinuity between them (mostly in vague references in Easter Eggs). Dragon Age...is a tightly interwoven series with each entry building on the other so if the Warden was the protag...basically Jack Bauer ...through killing the Archdemon, stopping the Arishock/ being at the start of the mage war, beating Corypheus his powers would be through the roof...as would his fame. And this is actually a problem with RPGs too because despite series occasionally having the same character carry over between games its always off putting when you get an experience reset and have to start over, like with ME 1 to ME 2 and the Witcher series. Its very video gamey.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 25, 2021 2:17:37 GMT
And this is actually a problem with RPGs too because despite series occasionally having the same character carry over between games its always off putting when you get an experience reset and have to start over, like with ME 1 to ME 2 and the Witcher series. Its very video gamey. I don't think anyone cares. Even so, in Baldur's Gate 1 vanilla, you reach as high as level 7? 9? Just don't make leveling such a big deal? Or depower. Win comes at great cost to the hero's condition, effectively resetting him. Or give him a small boost into the next game, like imported characters start at level 10 and carry some better equipment. It's not that hard. Work on XP reward scaling so that doesn't become an issue in the long term. Fixed.
Edit: Not to mention, if your problem is with the leveling mechanic itself, why would anyone be playing this? How does changing the character one would need to level fix the leveling problem? Don't want to level up the old character? Here's a new one then, now you've no excuse. No. That's not how it works. If I don't want to level a character, I don't want to level any character. What his name is, is entirely irrelevant and if I leveled that character in the previous game, is entirely irrelevant the moment I don't even get the choice of not leveling any character, returning or new, in the next one. Why am I playing this game? Why am I playing literally any AAA game? They all have leveling mechanics now. If I don't want to level anyone up anymore, I will either stick with a game whose character I've already maxed out, or play a game that doesn't have leveling. This isn't even an excuse.
And even so, what's the story with returning characters? Why should anyone need to level up Varric a third time? Varric should be one shoting Gods and be at level 150. It's video gamey, because it's a video game and if it weren't a video game, chances are you wouldn't be bothering with it. So yes, it should be video gamey.
His powerlevels and character would almost entirely reset from movie to movie in as much there was almost nil continuinuity between them (mostly in vague references in Easter Eggs). It matters little when you've watched 25 movies and even a battle in space, of all places. Dragon Age...is a tightly interwoven series with each entry building on the other so if the Warden was the protag...basically Jack Bauer ...through killing the Archdemon, stopping the Arishock/ being at the start of the mage war, beating Corypheus his powers would be through the roof...as would his fame. What you achieve in game is not indicative of powerlevel. First of all, none of these fights felt particularly difficult. I can't speak for Corypheus, because I never made it that far, but the Archdemon was hardly the hardest dragon we defeated. I'd say it was pretty weak. We had other fights in the game, with no dragons, that were far harder than that. In fact, most minions we fought trying to get to the Archdemon gave me more trouble in comparison. I can absolutely see more dangerous individuals existing around doing things that our heroes need to thwart. I honestly don't understand this "power level" obsession people seem to have. This isn't dragon ball and our heroes are all mortals. It's not my fault Bioware's writers forgot it. Different plot doesn't have to mean bigger every time. By comparison, ME2's scope was smaller than ME1's and it is better for it, in every way. I think it is clear that Bioware no longer know what they are doing and, as such, should not be left doing what they want.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 25, 2021 3:50:45 GMT
Well, this'll make more than a couple of people happy... "On hair: BW are using the new hair technology in the latest version of the Frostbite engine, so they’ll see what they can do!"
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 25, 2021 3:56:51 GMT
Alas, by the sound of it, there won't be any flying mounts...
"A comment in chat asked about a flying mechanic (griffons). Jon’s response is that flying is such a heavy gameplay mechanic that you can’t put it in a game without everything in the game being built about it (see Anthem)"
... or underwater adventures.
"On the underwater concept art: it should not be interpreted as a promise of gameplay."
Still, if this holds, it'll be a pretty chunky game.
He doesn’t know how big DA4 is going to be but said “let’s ballpark and say like most games it’ll be somewhere between 70 and 100 GB”
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 25, 2021 4:05:55 GMT
Studio sizes:
There’s currently ~350 staff in Edmonton, ~200 in Austin and more elsewhere.
I remember "Anthem" being settled on just days before their first trailer, so that'll give you some idea how late in the process titles can be settled on. It was "Beyond" prior to that.
"On the title situation (two): names are the last thing they worry about because names have to go through legal before being approved. Every name, including character names, has to be checked in case it’s a famous person, or associated with something bad, or offensive in a different language due to localization etc"
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Post by colfoley on Jan 25, 2021 4:15:44 GMT
Alas, by the sound of it, there won't be any flying mounts... "A comment in chat asked about a flying mechanic (griffons). Jon’s response is that flying is such a heavy gameplay mechanic that you can’t put it in a game without everything in the game being built about it (see Anthem)"... or underwater adventures. "On the underwater concept art: it should not be interpreted as a promise of gameplay."Still, if this holds, it'll be a pretty chunky game. He doesn’t know how big DA4 is going to be but said “let’s ballpark and say like most games it’ll be somewhere between 70 and 100 GB”Thanks for the reminders. On no flying mounts...probably more thank the Maker then a dissapointment. Inquisition's mounts were very meeehhhh so I'm not that unhappy to hear that flying mounts probably won't be in there. I still wouldn't take this to mean there won't be...I wouldn't bet on it either...but I think his overall advice is good about treating this as a matter of theme rather then indicitive of specific gameplay. And the theme I get from the concept art has been adventure, city scapes, heady politics, maybe heists. I know *whistles* So it was written, so it shall be.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 25, 2021 4:29:06 GMT
Alas, by the sound of it, there won't be any flying mounts... "A comment in chat asked about a flying mechanic (griffons). Jon’s response is that flying is such a heavy gameplay mechanic that you can’t put it in a game without everything in the game being built about it (see Anthem)"... or underwater adventures. "On the underwater concept art: it should not be interpreted as a promise of gameplay."Still, if this holds, it'll be a pretty chunky game. He doesn’t know how big DA4 is going to be but said “let’s ballpark and say like most games it’ll be somewhere between 70 and 100 GB”Thanks for the reminders. On no flying mounts...probably more thank the Maker then a dissapointment. Inquisition's mounts were very meeehhhh so I'm not that unhappy to hear that flying mounts probably won't be in there. I still wouldn't take this to mean there won't be...I wouldn't bet on it either...but I think his overall advice is good about treating this as a matter of theme rather then indicitive of specific gameplay. And the theme I get from the concept art has been adventure, city scapes, heady politics, maybe heists. I know *whistles* So it was written, so it shall be. Personally, even more than a flying mount, I was kinda hoping for a flying base or one of the flying aravels we saw in the concept art. But I'm glad he's tempering expectations now, so we don't get too many heady ideas from the concept art.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 25, 2021 7:46:56 GMT
Thanks for the reminders. On no flying mounts...probably more thank the Maker then a dissapointment. Inquisition's mounts were very meeehhhh so I'm not that unhappy to hear that flying mounts probably won't be in there. I still wouldn't take this to mean there won't be...I wouldn't bet on it either...but I think his overall advice is good about treating this as a matter of theme rather then indicitive of specific gameplay. And the theme I get from the concept art has been adventure, city scapes, heady politics, maybe heists. I know *whistles* So it was written, so it shall be. Personally, even more than a flying mount, I was kinda hoping for a flying base or one of the flying aravels we saw in the concept art. But I'm glad he's tempering expectations now, so we don't get too many heady ideas from the concept art. I'm not sure what he can do at this point honestly other then temper expectations. I mean I am just sitting here wondering how I am even going to put out my thoughts on this but so much of the commentary I am seeing around here just seems...wildly reaching. Very assumptive. Its not really speculation its just making claims about the game based on a line in the trailer here or a picture there when the vast majority of the stuff we have seen in concept art.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jan 25, 2021 10:06:42 GMT
"Only real way to reduce crunch is to reduce scope, and have a more focused experience, playing to their strengths and not going outside their comfort zone" Sounds like a good plan to me Yes, comfort zone Bioware is best Bioware.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 25, 2021 10:08:28 GMT
"Only real way to reduce crunch is to reduce scope, and have a more focused experience, playing to their strengths and not going outside their comfort zone" Sounds like a good plan to me Yes, comfort zone Bioware is best Bioware. Does Bioware know what their strengths and comfort zone is anymore though.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 25, 2021 11:28:29 GMT
Does Bioware know what their strengths and comfort zone is anymore though. It's Button - Awesome. Always has been.
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Post by biggydx on Jan 25, 2021 15:20:16 GMT
They say reducing scope, yet the game seems to span half a continent. Implications unpleasant. The cities could just be there own hub worlds.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 25, 2021 18:04:27 GMT
Does Bioware know what their strengths and comfort zone is anymore though. It's Button - Awesome. Always has been. Given that the idea behind that was a more exciting gameplay, I don’t think they really accomplished that in DA. One of the big problems for the next game is the combat identity and what direction they’d go for. in regards of the full scope of those informations, while I don’t share the same negative views as a few others stated in the thread, there were some problematic stuff. The scope of the game in particular, given the seemingly big and country-spawning story the game would be set in. And while I was neutral on the whole Inquisitor-New PC situation, it’s ironic how the tidbit of having a recurring protagonist mentioned a depowerment...which they did, quite naturally and not as ‘forced’ as Shepard’s in ME2, with Trespasser. That was a perfect way to have the Inquisitor ‘weaker’ for DA4. I’d say on this topic, howewer, that I don’t completely disagree with the view shared. While I do think it’s possible to have a following game with a less grave threat to face, as long as it’s written in an interesting manner, it’s also harder to sell. But I also don’t think that an IP can’t go on without the same protagonist. It doesn’t mean you can’t use him/her after something like the Reaper Wars for ME, of the Blight in DAO, but the opposite is also true. Bioware’s problems in recent years aren’t based on the new protagonists, or at least, not for their core problems. A MEA with Shepard as a protagonist wouldn’t have made the game better or worse, overall, even if the party would’ve had also old squadmates in it. On returning characters, I get the reasoning behind it, although I’d say ME3 did a good job with some of the replacements, expecially with Wrex/Wreav and the different outlook on the krogans. It’s one advantage of having a new protagonist, though, that you don’t necessarily have to focus a lot on old characters, and have them with cameos and semi-important roles. It is in general, however, a problem that games with save-importing features have. TW3 was similar in this regard.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 18:18:38 GMT
They say reducing scope, yet the game seems to span half a continent. Implications unpleasant. The cities could just be there own hub worlds. So be like DA2 where it’s like “Okay we saw one city. Cross that country off the list.”? That’s one thing I dread.
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Post by biggydx on Jan 25, 2021 18:20:29 GMT
The cities could just be there own hub worlds. So be like DA2 where it’s like “Okay we saw one city. Cross that country off the list.”? That’s one thing I dread. I would guess that you would have quests specific to these locations as well. Probably even a player "home base", whatever that turns out to be.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 25, 2021 19:21:56 GMT
Given that the idea behind that was a more exciting gameplay, I don’t think they really accomplished that in DA. One of the big problems for the next game is the combat identity and what direction they’d go for. Looks like more of the same like DA:I, but I assume there will be some improvements. This middling combat system is a huge downgrade, in my opinion, over Origins'. For PC at least. I know there are quite a few people playing on consoles and prefer this to what was the console offerings of that title, but even as I replayed Origins on a friend's PS3, during my stay in Edinburgh in 20...11? Or was it 2013? Anyway, I'm getting off track. Point is, the combat alternatives Bioware has since developed have not been up to par with the original system, at least on PC. As I played DA2 on my own PS3, I can say that I remember feeling more limited in its combat system, than any other game I have ever tried playing. And that was not fun. I’d say on this topic, howewer, that I don’t completely disagree with the view shared. While I do think it’s possible to have a following game with a less grave threat to face, as long as it’s written in an interesting manner, it’s also harder to sell. I disagree. ME2's mission was a downgrade in importance to galactic peace at every turn to ME1 and it is the best received game of the franchise. I don't understand people's obsession with going bigger at every turn. That's how you get things like Death Star>Bigger Death Star> Death Star that kills 5 planets in a single shot, from across the galaxy> Fleet of Death Star like ships. If you consider it unsustainable for the protagonist, it is more unsustainable for the franchise. You can't have a new protagonist doing smaller things, if the franchise needs to go bigger every time. If that is the case, arguably, Mass Effect is over. If you actually need to go bigger than the Reapers, the franchise is done. But I also don’t think that an IP can’t go on without the same protagonist. It doesn’t mean you can’t use him/her after something like the Reaper Wars for ME, of the Blight in DAO, but the opposite is also true. Bioware’s problems in recent years aren’t based on the new protagonists, or at least, not for their core problems. A MEA with Shepard as a protagonist wouldn’t have made the game better or worse, overall, even if the party would’ve had also old squadmates in it It is a problem with public perception, though. As you say, there is not a one single thing that's brought us here. But at this point, there's little that can be done to reverse this situation. Andromeda proved that a game can't stand on the name Mass Effect alone. For whatever reason, something chopped off its legs. We can argue it, from troubled development to the alt-right. However, when a game that faces similar controversy (Cyberpunk 2077, The Last of Us 2) about crunch and rushed development and internal problems, initial sales are through the roof and once the audience settles in, then the sales start tanking. ME:A did not have a strong start. And part of that is the brand damage that the studio has suffered, it is the treatment of the fanbase by the studio, it is the killing blow that ME3 dealt to the franchise. And the franchise could have moved on from Shepard before, but ME3 made sure people get stuck in that past. Unless you do something to rectify it, this will remain a dead franchise. And what Bioware is currently doing, will not save the title. And I am really looking forward to see the market penetration the sequel to Bioware's best selling title ever will enjoy. It is in general, however, a problem that games with save-importing features have. TW3 was similar in this regard. Baldur's Gate 2 did it best.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 19:32:00 GMT
So be like DA2 where it’s like “Okay we saw one city. Cross that country off the list.”? That’s one thing I dread. I would guess that you would have quests specific to these locations as well. Probably even a player "home base", whatever that turns out to be. Don’t really see how that addresses what I was talking about?
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Post by biggydx on Jan 25, 2021 20:09:54 GMT
I would guess that you would have quests specific to these locations as well. Probably even a player "home base", whatever that turns out to be. Don’t really see how that addresses what I was talking about? Maybe I miss interpreted? I thought you were getting at there not being anything to do in said cities. What do you think they should do with these cities (so I know what you're looking for)?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 20:27:02 GMT
Don’t really see how that addresses what I was talking about? Maybe I miss interpreted? I thought you were getting at there not being anything to do in said cities. What do you think they should do with these cities (so I know what you're looking for)? No, I'm worried they'll just focus on the cities and then write off the rest of the country. Like how they did Kirkwall, then ignored the rest of the Free Marches. I think they should do less nations so they can focus on them more. So instead of all of northern Thedas, just do Tevinter and Qunandar (with Seheron since both say it's there's). ut instead it seems "Okay here's Antiva City. Screw the rest of Antiva." or "Okay here's Weishaupt. Screw the rest of the Anderfels." and so on.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2021 20:53:48 GMT
Maybe I miss interpreted? I thought you were getting at there not being anything to do in said cities. What do you think they should do with these cities (so I know what you're looking for)? No, I'm worried they'll just focus on the cities and then write off the rest of the country. Like how they did Kirkwall, then ignored the rest of the Free Marches. I think they should do less nations so they can focus on them more. So instead of all of northern Thedas, just do Tevinter and Qunandar (with Seheron since both say it's there's). ut instead it seems "Okay here's Antiva City. Screw the rest of Antiva." or "Okay here's Weishaupt. Screw the rest of the Anderfels." and so on. That’s my concern as well and everything we’ve seen so far makes me think we’ll be seeing a handful of cities and nothing in between. I don’t see how they could do Minrathous, Antiva City and Nevarra justice while also having the resources to do their associated countrysides justice
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 21:06:35 GMT
No, I'm worried they'll just focus on the cities and then write off the rest of the country. Like how they did Kirkwall, then ignored the rest of the Free Marches. I think they should do less nations so they can focus on them more. So instead of all of northern Thedas, just do Tevinter and Qunandar (with Seheron since both say it's there's). ut instead it seems "Okay here's Antiva City. Screw the rest of Antiva." or "Okay here's Weishaupt. Screw the rest of the Anderfels." and so on. That’s my concern as well and everything we’ve seen so far makes me think we’ll be seeing a handful of cities and nothing in between. I don’t see how they could do Minrathous, Antiva City and Nevarra justice while also having the resources to do their associated countrysides justice I don't even see how they can do all those capitals justice. But yeah as someone who has enjoyed their natural maps more than their urban ones this doesn't bode well. Doesn't help that it is with some nations I wanted to see the most. Add that to them being wasted in a game that's already a giant middle finger to me.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 21:07:51 GMT
And while I was neutral on the whole Inquisitor-New PC situation, it’s ironic how the tidbit of having a recurring protagonist mentioned a depowerment...which they did, quite naturally and not as ‘forced’ as Shepard’s in ME2, with Trespasser. That was a perfect way to have the Inquisitor ‘weaker’ for DA4. Exactly. There is the perfect opportunity to explain why they are Level 1 again: they have to learn everything again with the new limb.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Jan 25, 2021 22:15:28 GMT
No, I'm worried they'll just focus on the cities and then write off the rest of the country. Like how they did Kirkwall, then ignored the rest of the Free Marches. I think they should do less nations so they can focus on them more. So instead of all of northern Thedas, just do Tevinter and Qunandar (with Seheron since both say it's there's). ut instead it seems "Okay here's Antiva City. Screw the rest of Antiva." or "Okay here's Weishaupt. Screw the rest of the Anderfels." and so on. That’s my concern as well and everything we’ve seen so far makes me think we’ll be seeing a handful of cities and nothing in between. I don’t see how they could do Minrathous, Antiva City and Nevarra justice while also having the resources to do their associated countrysides justice Smaller hub worlds maybe? Some of the fans have asked for a return to this style of format, and maybe that's a viable alternative. I also think it depends on how large these cities are going to be (i.e. traversable landscape). I can understand the concern, but we've already seen in-game assets of a mountainous region, a snow-covered wilderness, and some kind of fort covered in red lyrium. So we at least know we're going outside of these cities to some degree.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 25, 2021 22:21:41 GMT
That’s my concern as well and everything we’ve seen so far makes me think we’ll be seeing a handful of cities and nothing in between. I don’t see how they could do Minrathous, Antiva City and Nevarra justice while also having the resources to do their associated countrysides justice Smaller hub worlds maybe? Some of the fans have asked for a return to this style of format, and maybe that's a viable alternative. I also think it depends on how large these cities are going to be (i.e. traversable landscape). I can understand the concern, but we've already seen in-game assets of a mountainous region, a snow-covered wilderness, and some kind of fort covered in red lyrium. So we at least know we're going outside of these cities to some degree. Probably only in one nation, while the others are treated as an afterthought.
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