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Post by colfoley on Apr 15, 2022 19:31:12 GMT
Speaking of character creator's I must point out that I just found out that Dragons Dogma has one of the best ones out there. Right up there with ME2 and MEA.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 15, 2022 19:32:27 GMT
I think it's a matter of perspective, though. I think that every DA game had political themes in them, at least from my perspective.
It could be I was too young to notice, then.
Then I got older, and honestly, I feel MUCH, MUCH older than I really am at times. Not exactly good when trying to accept new order of things. Then you add in the fact my country hasn't really been hit with all the new stuff yet... I perfectly identify with Homer's father in that scene at times. Although... I never was "with it" when I think about it.
given the current state of global affairs if it seems like I am with something I begin questioning my position.
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Post by Serza on Apr 15, 2022 19:57:40 GMT
It could be I was too young to notice, then.
Then I got older, and honestly, I feel MUCH, MUCH older than I really am at times. Not exactly good when trying to accept new order of things. Then you add in the fact my country hasn't really been hit with all the new stuff yet... I perfectly identify with Homer's father in that scene at times. Although... I never was "with it" when I think about it.
given the current state of global affairs if it seems like I am with something I begin questioning my position.
I guess it's about finding your groove and never leaving it...
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 15, 2022 20:04:09 GMT
Is this a tweet from one of the team? I ask because if they are then it is interesting they refer to the "old" character creator, which suggests we could be getting a new, better one in DA4. Obviously, if this is just a fan, then ignore me. Could be one that’s worse though. MEA and Anthem were downgrades of DAI for example. They might have been a downgrade, but I was happier with the outcome when using the character creator in Andromeda and Anthem over anything from Inquisition.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 15, 2022 20:09:21 GMT
The thing a lot of people seem to forget is that a game that has no queer characters, no characters of colour, not much in the way of female characters etc. is every bit as political as a game that does. The politics of those games is to uphold the idea that white men are the most important, interesting, and impactful people there are, the natural heros of every story, and all the rest of us chumps better sit back and accept this glaringly obvious truth. I'm pretty old and tired of those politics, myself. I'm tired of politics period.
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Post by Serza on Apr 15, 2022 20:18:50 GMT
The thing a lot of people seem to forget is that a game that has no queer characters, no characters of colour, not much in the way of female characters etc. is every bit as political as a game that does. The politics of those games is to uphold the idea that white men are the most important, interesting, and impactful people there are, the natural heros of every story, and all the rest of us chumps better sit back and accept this glaringly obvious truth. I'm pretty old and tired of those politics, myself. I'm tired of politics period.
Yeah. Unfortunately, Iolanthe does have a point there, too...
It's just... yeah, fuck politics...
I'm especially wary because I got called out on YouTube recently for apparently "being racist" after I argued that the changes to Captain Keyes in the show (they made him a black man) are wrong on principle. I just think they screwed up, because beyond that change, they don't seem to have done Keyes a lot of justice. Didn't even realize after I specifically said changing SGT Johnson would be no less wrong, and that it's really sad because their motivations were clearly political, when an established and beloved character could have given them what they were after. Especially if done true to the character in the lore.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 15, 2022 20:28:21 GMT
I'm tired of politics period.
Yeah. Unfortunately, Iolanthe does have a point there, too...
It's just... yeah, fuck politics...
I'm especially wary because I got called out on YouTube recently for apparently "being racist" after I argued that the changes to Captain Keyes in the show (they made him a black man) are wrong on principle. I just think they screwed up, because beyond that change, they don't seem to have done Keyes a lot of justice. Didn't even realize after I specifically said changing SGT Johnson would be no less wrong, and that it's really sad because their motivations were clearly political, when an established and beloved character could have given them what they were after. Especially if done true to the character in the lore.
I think for me that kind of 'race bending' sailed when they changed Nick Fury's race for me. With Captain Keyes specifically though I think even though it is a seperate timeline they are trying to do this thing where a lot of these people are trying to become the characters we know and love but aren't there yet. I think Chief will become more Chief like and Keyes will become more fond of him as the series and the season goes on. As far as politics in fiction in general...I just think politics is so ingrained in our society it is hard to not deal with and hard to not have fiction comment on it. But the key is to make such things general and not specific. Its ok to say 'that group of quasi religious fascists is evil, go get them!' But then if you say...I mean this is a horrible example since DA would be stretching like hell if they ever did it but if you said 'well this group called x and they are from our reala world and they are super evil' that would be crossing a line. In short let your audience draw their own conclusions and relate their own experiences about the stories you are trying to tell...leave the real world out of it.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Apr 15, 2022 20:28:28 GMT
Gender wasn't even really binary in that sense back Medieval times, it was generally based on Aristotle's idea that women were "unfinished men", a being that never attained its perfect form. Hence why women didn't "deserve" higher power as they were considered to lack the faculties for it. There are even tales recorded of women performing immense physical feats and... turning into men. Literally. Whether that's just a myth or these people were non-binary/trans is hard to say, but it does tell us a bit about their mindset. It wasn't really until the 18th century that gender started to evolve into the binary way of categorizing it as we have been used to up until today. Rousseau for example promoted the idea of the genders "complementing" each other very hard (and as it happened, women's role was not that of having any influence outside the home). When the French Revolution happened an awakening started to happen, where if the societal order could be questioned and uprooted... what was to say the same couldn't happen for women? Some started to petition for equal rights, but inevitably it was decided that women having self determination was a threat against the state, and many of the women who had tried advocating for it were imprisoned and/or executed (see Olympe de Gouges). There are many interesting texts written during this time, some that are still very much valid today.
Anyway, small history lesson aside, the point is that gender has not been a stable concept and not as we imagine people were thinking about it. Besides, there are hundreds of other inaccurate features presumed to be Medieval in these games that are not actually Medieval, so I see no harm in them exploring these issues to some extent (as long as it doesn't become the main thing, I'd read an academical paper for that).
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Post by colfoley on Apr 15, 2022 20:33:54 GMT
Gender wasn't even really binary in that sense back Medieval times, it was generally based on Aristotle's idea that women were "unfinished men", a being that never attained it's perfect form. Hence why women didn't "deserve" higher power as they were considered to lack the faculties for it. There are even tales recorded of women performing immense physical feats and... turning into men. Literally. Whether that's just a myth or these people were non-binary/trans is hard to say, but it does tell us a bit about their mindset. It wasn't really until the 18th century that gender started to evolve into the binary way of categorizing it as we have been used to up until today. Rousseau for example promoted the idea of the genders "complementing" each other very hard (and as it happened, women's role was not that of having any influence outside the home). When the French Revolution happened an awakening started to happen, where if the societal order could be questioned and uprooted... what was to say the same couldn't happen for women? Some started to petition for equal rights, but inevitably it was decided that women having self determination was a threat against the state, and many of the women who had tried advocating for it were imprisoned and/or executed (see Olympe de Gouges). There are many interesting texts written during this time, some that are still very much valid today. Anyway, small history lesson aside, the point is that gender has not been a stable concept and not as we imagine people were thinking about it. Besides, there are hundreds of other inaccurate features presumed to be Medieval in these games that are not actually Medieval, so I see no harm in them exploring these issues to some extent (as long as it doesn't become the main thing, I'd read an academical paper for that). Thank you for the history lesson quite interesting...I think Aristotle would fit in with the Qun at least in this case. And its not really surprising. Dragon Age is highly anachronistic even with the standard fantasy video game tropes. I think the broad strokes history is there but the societal norms and relations seem a bit like how we view the world today. Which as someone who is trying his hand at writing medeval fiction and wanting to tell the story in a certain way I am discovering it is more and more of a bitch to actually do so since medeval standards were so whack...well no I should say I am aiming more for 17th century but even then.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 15, 2022 20:34:53 GMT
To be honest, this political war on both sides has become nauseating. While we're bickering over "culture war" nonsense worse things are transpiring. But enough of that let's get back to Dragon Age.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 15, 2022 20:35:48 GMT
I'm tired of politics period.
Yeah. Unfortunately, Iolanthe does have a point there, too...
It's just... yeah, fuck politics...
I'm especially wary because I got called out on YouTube recently for apparently "being racist" after I argued that the changes to Captain Keyes in the show (they made him a black man) are wrong on principle. I just think they screwed up, because beyond that change, they don't seem to have done Keyes a lot of justice. Didn't even realize after I specifically said changing SGT Johnson would be no less wrong, and that it's really sad because their motivations were clearly political, when an established and beloved character could have given them what they were after. Especially if done true to the character in the lore.
Yeah, people like throwing out words like racists or misogynist. I remember being called a slew of those types of ideas when I said that I don't think they should gender swap James Bond for it wouldn't make a good female character and instead make a new 00 agent that is female. Its a crazy land out there, but then again I did get death threats when I posted on a couple of forums that I didn't think Mass Effect 3's ending was underwhelming, but not as bad as the commentary around it to be.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 15, 2022 20:44:35 GMT
Yeah. Unfortunately, Iolanthe does have a point there, too...
It's just... yeah, fuck politics...
I'm especially wary because I got called out on YouTube recently for apparently "being racist" after I argued that the changes to Captain Keyes in the show (they made him a black man) are wrong on principle. I just think they screwed up, because beyond that change, they don't seem to have done Keyes a lot of justice. Didn't even realize after I specifically said changing SGT Johnson would be no less wrong, and that it's really sad because their motivations were clearly political, when an established and beloved character could have given them what they were after. Especially if done true to the character in the lore.
Yeah, people like throwing out words like racists or misogynist. I remember being called a slew of those types of ideas when I said that I don't think they should gender swap James Bond for it wouldn't make a good female character and instead make a new 00 agent that is female. Its a crazy land out there, but then again I did get death threats when I posted on a couple of forums that I didn't think Mass Effect 3's ending was underwhelming, but not as bad as the commentary around it to be. I'll be honest, I think writers are using a person's skin color to shield themselves from criticism. It's pretty sad that they see black people like that but I'm beginning to think it's the truth.
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Post by Serza on Apr 15, 2022 20:49:29 GMT
To be honest, this political war on both sides has become nauseating. While we're bickering over "culture war" nonsense worse things are transpiring. But enough of that let's get back to Dragon Age.
Please.
I have heard concerns elsewhere regarding the current leadership of the project. Regarding the experience side, mind you.
I'm hoping they're incorrect - and as far as I can tell, so does the person voicing the concerns in the first place - but they exist nevertheless.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Apr 15, 2022 20:51:00 GMT
Thank you for the history lesson quite interesting Thank you, I'm quite rusty but I did once write my bachelor thesis in history on republicanism and female identity during the French Revolution, so I did pick up some stuff about the Medieval times for background research (honestly, I'd love to delve more into it!). It always amuses me to hear people scream about some element of a game being removed because "it would be less authentic" and here I am knowing that shit wasn't even a thing during Medieval times anyway.
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Post by Serza on Apr 15, 2022 20:52:24 GMT
Yeah. Unfortunately, Iolanthe does have a point there, too...
It's just... yeah, fuck politics...
I'm especially wary because I got called out on YouTube recently for apparently "being racist" after I argued that the changes to Captain Keyes in the show (they made him a black man) are wrong on principle. I just think they screwed up, because beyond that change, they don't seem to have done Keyes a lot of justice. Didn't even realize after I specifically said changing SGT Johnson would be no less wrong, and that it's really sad because their motivations were clearly political, when an established and beloved character could have given them what they were after. Especially if done true to the character in the lore.
Yeah, people like throwing out words like racists or misogynist. I remember being called a slew of those types of ideas when I said that I don't think they should gender swap James Bond for it wouldn't make a good female character and instead make a new 00 agent that is female. Its a crazy land out there, but then again I did get death threats when I posted on a couple of forums that I didn't think Mass Effect 3's ending was underwhelming, but not as bad as the commentary around it to be.
Yes. We're right back, but that is why I like the Spiderman approach. Miles Morales is a brand new character that has nothing to do with Peter Parker, except being his protege of sorts.
Yeah, people like throwing out words like racists or misogynist. I remember being called a slew of those types of ideas when I said that I don't think they should gender swap James Bond for it wouldn't make a good female character and instead make a new 00 agent that is female. Its a crazy land out there, but then again I did get death threats when I posted on a couple of forums that I didn't think Mass Effect 3's ending was underwhelming, but not as bad as the commentary around it to be. I'll be honest, I think writers are using a person's skin color to shield themselves from criticism. It's pretty sad that they see black people like that but I'm beginning to think it's the truth.
I tried to argue that is also racist. Ironically - while we talk about it, it will never really go away, but if we stop, it may fester again.
Didn't we say back to DA, though?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2022 20:58:59 GMT
Gender wasn't even really binary in that sense back Medieval times, it was generally based on Aristotle's idea that women were "unfinished men", a being that never attained its perfect form. Hence why women didn't "deserve" higher power as they were considered to lack the faculties for it. There are even tales recorded of women performing immense physical feats and... turning into men. Literally. Whether that's just a myth or these people were non-binary/trans is hard to say, but it does tell us a bit about their mindset. It wasn't really until the 18th century that gender started to evolve into the binary way of categorizing it as we have been used to up until today. Rousseau for example promoted the idea of the genders "complementing" each other very hard (and as it happened, women's role was not that of having any influence outside the home). When the French Revolution happened an awakening started to happen, where if the societal order could be questioned and uprooted... what was to say the same couldn't happen for women? Some started to petition for equal rights, but inevitably it was decided that women having self determination was a threat against the state, and many of the women who had tried advocating for it were imprisoned and/or executed (see Olympe de Gouges). There are many interesting texts written during this time, some that are still very much valid today. Anyway, small history lesson aside, the point is that gender has not been a stable concept and not as we imagine people were thinking about it. Besides, there are hundreds of other inaccurate features presumed to be Medieval in these games that are not actually Medieval, so I see no harm in them exploring these issues to some extent (as long as it doesn't become the main thing, I'd read an academical paper for that). And that’s just European history. There have been some cultures that have had ideas like this long before, such as some Native American tribes.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 15, 2022 21:17:54 GMT
elle tchi 💙💛 @elenatchiisometimes i boot up DAI to remember the old character creator and woof those hairstyles still hurt me 😭 (it might also be a "fashion was different back in 2014 thing, like some of the mullets look actually kinda good in 2022 🤔) *drinks for hair* At no point in human history has a mullet looked “good”. Although, it stuff like this gives rise to hope we may have fewer iterations of bald/closely shaved, this time around.
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N5
blep mlem mlem
ratlobster banger
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Post by Solas on Apr 15, 2022 22:26:36 GMT
Dragon Age isn't a medieval world, it's a fantasy - swords and sorcery, dragons and magic - world with some medieval influences, aesthetic and set dressing. The nations and cultures in it draw on multiple sources outside of 'classic' (or whatever you want to call it) North/north Western medieval Europe. And the technology levels and so on shown by the various nations and cultures in the setting aren't even consistent, they're all over the shop - Ferelden is a medieval backwater (with even more 'older-style' cultures within it which are considered even more backwatery by the regular Fereldans, like the Avvar). Fereldan is 'classic' medievally and Orlais considers them to be primitive barbarians and references that a lot. Meanwhile the dwarves have explosives, the Qunari have gunpowder, there are anachronisms all over the shop and the Tevinters are living in floating-building neon-light magipunk77. And again it is a fantasy world - we can run around with sparkle FX and oversized Final-fantasy style swords, leap from the top of a building and not die, magically change shape, teleport into other dimensions between worlds, we can create a dark magic super god baby by having sex, NPCs can fall at our feet, we can change appearance by looking into a magic mirror and kill hundreds of people. Trans people have existed at many periods throughout human history irl, in all echelons of society. the idea that they wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't exist or - gasp - mention it in a fantasy game where magic can do heaps of stuff and we can backflip the killing stroke onto an ogre and then go kiss our ancient god magic elf boyfriend - I mean..?? "I can accept wish fulfillment sexy elf gf who I'd never have a chance with irl and having magic sex to save my life but I draw the line at a trans character having a convo about it"? not to mention that BioWare as a company and their games have always been - rightly or wrongly, successful at it or not - known for their progressive views and topics covered in their games, this isn't a new or different thing for them, and this series has always had 'political stuff' in it. back in the day it was Fox news wigging out about lesbian blue alien sideboob in ME1 and men having meltdowns because they accidentally went into Zevran's tent and had gay sex or because Anders flirted with them once, now folks wig out because a blog post has pronouns and there might be some trans characters who mention it in the next game. so the wheel turns! the DA games are still full of dark stuff that people consider 'gritty' or whatever, even the more recent ones - blood rituals, slavery, genocide, more genocide, body horror, giant multi-boob monsters, sexy demons, magic 'conversion therapy', poverty, brainwashing, cults, racism, factions doing 'ends justifies the means' heinous acts, the corruption of power, political machinations between factions and rulers.. truly Idng this lol. and like if this stuff isn't your cup of tea nobody is gonna make you play DA4, there are lots of other fantasy RP type games out there, I've got my eye on the new witcher project for example. also Krem is a man.
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Post by necrowaif on Apr 15, 2022 22:33:35 GMT
HOLY WALLS OF TEXT, BATMAN Dragon Age isn't a medieval world, it's a fantasy I prefer the term “quasi-medieval.” It’s true that there are a lot of differences between Thedas and, say, a thoroughly medieval setting like Kingdom Come: Deliverance. But at the same time, it’s still very much a backwards setting. You can get lashes for poaching on a noble’s land. You can get hanged for deserting your post or left to starve in a gibbet for murder. They still believe in balancing the humours and think you can treat mental illness by drilling holes in a person’s head. So yes, there are gay and lesbian people, just as there are transgender and genderfluid people. But there’s no transition therapy and there’s no one with the luxury of demanding everyone use their preferred pronouns without getting pelted with rotten vegetables. In any case, I’m not even that worried about the presence of LGBTQA2+ people in the game, unless it’s done to excess. I’m more concerned about the narrative being guided by modern politics and Dragon Age losing what little edge it has.
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
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Post by mousestalker on Apr 15, 2022 22:37:45 GMT
I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences.
/rant
*Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 15, 2022 22:40:45 GMT
Bit paragraph o’ doom there, Solas. Have mercy; I’m on mobile. lol
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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ღ The Untitled
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Just here for the cosplay
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Apr 15, 2022 22:40:57 GMT
elle tchi 💙💛 @elenatchiisometimes i boot up DAI to remember the old character creator and woof those hairstyles still hurt me 😭 (it might also be a "fashion was different back in 2014 thing, like some of the mullets look actually kinda good in 2022 🤔) *drinks for hair* At no point in human history has a mullet looked “good”. Although, it stuff like this gives rise to hope we may have fewer iterations of bald/closely shaved, this time around. In all fairness, there were hairstyle mods out really quickly. Why was 'City of Heroes' the peak of character customization? Why don'y games invest more resources in that? I wanna play with my pixel dolls, darnit!
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guest@proboards.com
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2022 23:15:21 GMT
I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences. /rant *Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement. What demands to be inclusive? They have people there already who represent a vast array of genders, sexualities, and ethnic groups - if the people in BioWare want to make a game or a story that represents and resonates with them as who they are as people I don't really see the problem. It just might not be appealing to the sort of bigots who get their undies in a bunch at the very simple request to acknowledge another person's correct gender after openly being given that information to use.
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http://bsn.boards.net/threads/recent/143
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 15, 2022 23:42:34 GMT
"I can accept wish fulfillment sexy elf gf who I'd never have a chance with irl and having magic sex to save my life but I draw the line at a trans character having a convo about it"? Lies. Sexy elf girls fulfill my wishes in real life ALL THE TIME. Yep.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 16, 2022 0:10:39 GMT
I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences. /rant *Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement. Hear hear. Which so far BioWare has been pretty *fine* in this regard. Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug*.
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