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Post by necrowaif on Apr 16, 2022 0:27:52 GMT
Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug*. I agree. But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? That’s my fear.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 16, 2022 0:29:40 GMT
But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? Then that would get real old real fast. I mean that is a complete hypothetical though and so while it is certainly possible do we really see BioWare being that extreme about it?
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Post by smilesja on Apr 16, 2022 0:30:18 GMT
I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences. /rant *Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement. What demands to be inclusive? They have people there already who represent a vast array of genders, sexualities, and ethnic groups - if the people in BioWare want to make a game or a story that represents and resonates with them as who they are as people I don't really see the problem. It just might not be appealing to the sort of bigots who get their undies in a bunch at the very simple request to acknowledge another person's correct gender after openly being given that information to use. You'd be surprised how many people demand themselves in certain media and then yell at them if they ignore their wishes.
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Post by necrowaif on Apr 16, 2022 1:05:08 GMT
But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? Then that would get real old real fast. I mean that is a complete hypothetical though and so while it is certainly possible do we really see BioWare being that extreme about it? I have no idea. I hope not. But none of that matters anyway because what will really destroy this franchise is NOT BRINGING THE INQUISITOR BACK! Am I right, folks?
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Post by Beerfish on Apr 16, 2022 2:11:41 GMT
Hear hear. Which so far BioWare has been pretty *fine* in this regard. Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug Whatever the intent, I liked both of those characters quite a bit in the game. I felt they were good, interesting well fleshed out characters. BioWare did a nice job with both characters and their story arcs imo.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 16, 2022 2:32:18 GMT
Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug*. I agree. But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? That’s my fear. Well instead of fearing what has never happened, look at what they have done in these regards for I doubt they are going to change that drastically.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 16, 2022 2:51:55 GMT
Then that would get real old real fast. I mean that is a complete hypothetical though and so while it is certainly possible do we really see BioWare being that extreme about it? I have no idea. I hope not. But none of that matters anyway because what will really destroy this franchise is NOT BRINGING THE INQUISITOR BACK! Am I right, folks? You mean: NOT BRINGING BACK MY WARDEN?!
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 16, 2022 3:28:04 GMT
I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences. /rant *Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement. Who is demanding what, and since when has BioWare succumbed to such demands? I’m not sure what your definition of inclusivity is in this sense, but being that the lead writer is part of the trans community, I can only assume that they would write such characters because they want to, not because anyone demanded it. That’s how it’s always been. How do you think Dorian came to life? I’m not seeing where your fears are coming from because I’ve never seen story be sacrificed like that in a BioWare game, for anything.
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Post by The Elder King on Apr 16, 2022 3:44:47 GMT
I think it's a matter of perspective, though. I think that every DA game had political themes in them, at least from my perspective. I just do not want political preaching and being told what to think. I alluded previously that I did not think Krem was presented overbearingly, so I suppose I should not worry much. However some Bioware employees are somewhat vocal about politics on Twitter, so I wonder anyway.
I just hope the game is presented as "moral-neutral" rather than with an obvious political slant (progressive, conservative, green, libertarian, fascist etc) ...sort of like the mages versus templars tend to be presented Former BioWare employees that were in charge in previous games share and are vocal about their politics as well, in the same way of current ones. In this regard, nothing is changed, other then the fact that Twitter and social medias became much more prominent in the last decade. I don’t think that there is really something akin the mage-Templar conflict that is going to be relevant in the next game. Siding with either the Imperium or the Qun is more about picking between two bad teams, to me. I guess the only thing that might resemble picking a moral side from what we know is a hypothetical plot where a revolution would happen in Tevinter to turn the country to be more decent, which, as I said before, it could make sense, setting wise. It also depends on how the plot is approached and executed. Again though, some of the people in charge were in charge for Trespasser, where they didn’t turn the Qun in a sympathetic organization, have one of your companion betray you if you opted to make him remain in the Qun, and revealed more about the past of the elves, which were as bad as any other major countries in Thedas. As well as writing some short stories with plenty of dark elements. I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences. /rant *Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement. Hear hear. Which so far BioWare has been pretty *fine* in this regard. Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug*. I think Dorian and Sera’s reception is emblematic on the fact that no matter what they’ll do, someone will react negatively. Both characters received their share of criticism, actually, and they were planned and written from two different perspectives, as Dorian’s plot centered about his sexuality, and Sera’s didn’t, at all. Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug*. I agree. But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? That’s my fear. I don’t get, though, why do you think there’s the chance of this happening. This would mean that they’d discuss the sexuality, gender or race of basically all the characters you’d encounter in the game. I don’t honestly see that happening.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 16, 2022 5:17:02 GMT
I'm pretty sure the Quartering will have hundreds outrage videos ready as soon as Bioware reveals a gay character In Dragon Age.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 16, 2022 6:09:50 GMT
I'm pretty sure the Quartering will have hundreds outrage videos ready as soon as Bioware reveals a gay character In Dragon AGe. Pretty sure they will assume the first character BioWare announces they will automatically call them "special interest character".
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 16, 2022 8:08:02 GMT
A couple of posts have been removed.
While the discussion related to BioWare and their propensity towards inclusion politics in games it was - tenuously - ok. But outright discussion of general trans issues and the like aren’t permitted here. Nor is referring to trans people as having a mental illness going to be tolerated even a little. ProBoards Terms of Service prohibit posts that express hate or intolerance for certain groups, so don’t do that.
Leave the discussion regarding gender and gender politics there, thanks.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 16, 2022 8:19:06 GMT
That was the point I was making in my post; until the dialogue option pointed it out to me I'd never thought Krem was anything else.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 16, 2022 8:51:33 GMT
I can only assume that they would write such characters because they want to, not because anyone demanded it. That’s how it’s always been. How do you think Dorian came to life? I’m not seeing where your fears are coming from because I’ve never seen story be sacrificed like that in a BioWare game, for anything. You are absolutely right about this. DG did a whole piece about how Dorian came to be. When he pitched his idea for him, the rest of the team objected that in Thedas nobody really cares about whether you are gay or not and even in Tevinter they don't have a problem if you are discrete about it. DG responded that is the point with Dorian, he doesn't want to be discrete, pretending to be one thing in public and another behind closed doors. So the rest of the team said that would work with the setting and the rest is history. It wasn't just a case of one person wanting to put it in and everyone just going along with it. I think we can trust the team to give us a good mix of characters, with interesting backstories and a variety of opinions. If you want an idea, just read Tevinter Nights. There are LGBT characters there but that is just incidental to the stories being told, apart from giving context to why they might be in a particular situation in life. As for the team giving their preferred pronouns, that is something that is found in companies everywhere now and no indication of anything other than conforming to company policy on the matter.
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Post by Solas on Apr 16, 2022 10:03:20 GMT
sry gervaise that wasn't in response to you someone else was sayin otherwise about him
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Post by Sartoz on Apr 16, 2022 13:32:45 GMT
Gender wasn't even really binary in that sense back Medieval times, it was generally based on Aristotle's idea that women were "unfinished men", a being that never attained it's perfect form. Hence why women didn't "deserve" higher power as they were considered to lack the faculties for it. There are even tales recorded of women performing immense physical feats and... turning into men. Literally. Whether that's just a myth or these people were non-binary/trans is hard to say, but it does tell us a bit about their mindset. It wasn't really until the 18th century that gender started to evolve into the binary way of categorizing it as we have been used to up until today. Rousseau for example promoted the idea of the genders "complementing" each other very hard (and as it happened, women's role was not that of having any influence outside the home). When the French Revolution happened an awakening started to happen, where if the societal order could be questioned and uprooted... what was to say the same couldn't happen for women? Some started to petition for equal rights, but inevitably it was decided that women having self determination was a threat against the state, and many of the women who had tried advocating for it were imprisoned and/or executed (see Olympe de Gouges). There are many interesting texts written during this time, some that are still very much valid today. Anyway, small history lesson aside, the point is that gender has not been a stable concept and not as we imagine people were thinking about it. Besides, there are hundreds of other inaccurate features presumed to be Medieval in these games that are not actually Medieval, so I see no harm in them exploring these issues to some extent (as long as it doesn't become the main thing, I'd read an academical paper for that). Thank you for the history lesson quite interesting...I think Aristotle would fit in with the Qun at least in this case. And its not really surprising. Dragon Age is highly anachronistic even with the standard fantasy video game tropes. I think the broad strokes history is there but the societal norms and relations seem a bit like how we view the world today. Which as someone who is trying his hand at writing medeval fiction and wanting to tell the story in a certain way I am discovering it is more and more of a bitch to actually do so since medeval standards were so whack...well no I should say I am aiming more for 17th century but even then.
Truth is, telling a story from a medieval perspective won't wash with modern audiences. Hm.. maybe it can be seen as really funny.
Example: 1- It rains cats and dogs. Peasants lived in huts with thatched roofs. Cats slipped and fell from the rasters when it rained.
2- Carry the bride over the treshold I believe the word is derived from Old English Tresh which is the straw that peasants put in front of the door entrance And tresh means "to stamp on", which is appropriate since the reason for doing so is to clean their foot wear when it was muddy outdoors.
3- Why do brides carry flowers? Again, back in y 'ol days, peasants took a monthly bath and spring was the time for a bath and marriage. You know where I'm going with this, right? To mask her pungy scent she carried flowers.
Creating a game with medieval settings.. bows, swords, castles, Lords, Kings for today's audience requires some artistic freedoms, I think. But, not so much that non white characters fit in a Viking Saga setting, for example. Yet, you will still find idiots that complain about the lack of inclusivity. .. yeah. Remember though, we've been conditioned by hollywood movies about medieval life.
Dragon Age 4 ought to be interesting.DA:O and DA2's settings was medieval. DA:I's Orlais was around 17th century France. Tevinter, from the concept images, is more punklike 18th century. Minrathous, if done right, will be an interesting place to explore. However, its society and culture may be more restrictive than anywhere else in Thedas.
Hm... I wonder what Bio will shoot for?
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Post by Sartoz on Apr 16, 2022 14:45:55 GMT
I hate to bang on the same old refrain, but Bioware needs to ignore demands to be inclusive and just tell a great story. Box checking leads to bland characters and boring plots. If the characters are all gay, that's fine. If they are all straight, that's fine as well. Just make the best game possible and make me care about each character. Make me worry about their safety and happiness. Don't be afraid to kill them. It's the unwillingness to have real consequences that makes box checked characters dull*. Keep us uncertain as to the outcome of each encounter. Give us deep stories and actions with real, logical consequences. /rant *Characters that are there to fulfill some outside requirement typically come equipped with plot armour. s they can't be harmed, they are boring.If there isn'=t any risk or danger, then there isn't any excitement. What demands to be inclusive? They have people there already who represent a vast array of genders, sexualities, and ethnic groups - if the people in BioWare want to make a game or a story that represents and resonates with them as who they are as people I don't really see the problem. It just might not be appealing to the sort of bigots who get their undies in a bunch at the very simple request to acknowledge another person's correct gender after openly being given that information to use.
Game studios exist to sell a successful product... to make money.. to continue to exist and make more money... etc. Bio can make a game that resonates internally but I bet a chocolate donut to a dollar it will be a fiasco.... 'cause there are many more people with different views out there than people working at Bio. But, as you say, they are free to do that.
What I find interesting, though sad, is that those that comnplain about a lack of inclusivity, themselves don't include those with a different view and called them names. Hm... Do these fall into a tribal group? Social media is full of examples. Sadder still, is a lack of intellectual discussions at our universities about social studies for fear of being called racists, homophobists, or plain phobists by any other name.
Very likely, the same people that quickly labels others for their views cannot conceptualize nor are capable of verbalizing their stance on the subject. Labeling them is so much easier.
Pity that public education curriculum lacks a primer on the subject of rational reasoning. Even then, people today are just too lazy to think.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 16, 2022 14:46:20 GMT
Both Dorian and Krem didn't feel especially check boxy to me and even the tertiary character in Andromeda was pretty tertiary so *shrug*. I agree. But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? That’s my fear. You realize that Dragon Age had racial politics as a plot point as shown in the City Elf Origin. I mean I remember one of the major themes of the Witcher 2 is race relations and racism in general.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 16, 2022 18:29:39 GMT
I agree. But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? That’s my fear. You realize that Dragon Age had racial politics as a plot point as shown in the City Elf Origin. I mean I remember one of the major themes of the Witcher 2 is race relations and racism in general. Those racial politics were portrayed fairly even handedly and different enough, so as to not hit "too close to home." Bioware has not done this, but a fair number of Bioware employees have occasionally had some snarky posts insinuating the entiire stupidity of the "other political side" ... so the concern is whether Bioware might include some sort of "Gillette" portrayal within the game, full of insults and stereotypes toward the entirety of the "other side".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 16, 2022 18:39:38 GMT
What I find interesting, though sad, is that those that comnplain about a lack of inclusivity, themselves don't include those with a different view and called them names. Hm... Do these fall into a tribal group? Social media is full of examples. Sadder still, is a lack of intellectual discussions at our universities about social studies for fear of being called racists, homophobists, or plain phobists by any other name.
Very likely, the same people that quickly labels others for their views cannot conceptualize nor are capable of verbalizing their stance on the subject. Labeling them is so much easier.
Pity that public education curriculum lacks a primer on the subject of rational reasoning. Even then, people today are just too lazy to think. How and why should they be including those? The people you're griping about them not including are certainly not returning the favor, and instead treating them as subhuman and persecuting and punishing them in every way they can. Heck, with you mentioning public education the side you're supporting won't even let them be talked about in school, while their own can be only in a positive light. You can't be welcoming to someone who thinks you shouldn't exist, be lesser than them, should burn in hell, etc.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 16, 2022 18:56:16 GMT
What I find interesting, though sad, is that those that comnplain about a lack of inclusivity, themselves don't include those with a different view and called them names. Hm... Do these fall into a tribal group? Social media is full of examples. Sadder still, is a lack of intellectual discussions at our universities about social studies for fear of being called racists, homophobists, or plain phobists by any other name.
Very likely, the same people that quickly labels others for their views cannot conceptualize nor are capable of verbalizing their stance on the subject. Labeling them is so much easier.
Pity that public education curriculum lacks a primer on the subject of rational reasoning. Even then, people today are just too lazy to think. How and why should they be including those? The people you're griping about them not including are certainly not returning the favor, and instead treating them as subhuman and persecuting and punishing them in every way they can. Heck, with you mentioning public education the side you're supporting won't even let them be talked about in school, while their own can be only in a positive light. You can't be welcoming to someone who thinks you shouldn't exist, be lesser than them, should burn in hell, etc. Stereotyping and demonizing of Sartoz ... nice
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 16, 2022 19:05:45 GMT
I hope the entire DA4 cast is gays and lesbians so that it doesnt feel like a checkbox.
Well actually make sure we have at least one twink , one bear, and one gymbro.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 16, 2022 19:16:30 GMT
I agree. But what if we took Dorian’s side quest and repeated it 100 times throughout the game, making the plot a never ending series of conversations about sexuality, gender and modern racial politics? That’s my fear. You realize that Dragon Age had racial politics as a plot point as shown in the City Elf Origin. I mean I remember one of the major themes of the Witcher 2 is race relations and racism in general. Universalist, “racism is bad; people who commit racism are doing bad things” is a message that 98% of Americans have believed since King. It’s a good moral, being shown thru allegory, that we pretty much all agree with, even if we quibble over whether the narrative portrayed it well. Modern, twitter-verse, “all white people are racist and I have a white tears mug”, “anti-racism” is much less of a universally accepted social more. As long as they give me a valid option to argue or tell a character preaching at me that I disagree, I’m cool. And so far, barring one hiccup that I can think of, I haven’t felt like I was being judged by Dragon Age characters. Unless I did something that obviously went against their moral code, but then I can always offer my own justification or try to placate them. (This is of course barring intentionally evil(ish) playthroughs where u may just punch them.) I’m not being preached at, I’m being treated like a difference of opinion has occurred. My agency as a person has been respected. Hopefully the trend continues. But, given trending progressive opinions regarding opposing views across a lot of social media, it’s not crazy to worry that a team that is obviously, purposefully, publicly signaling which side of politics they are on in a community update letter may have some trouble with that kind of objectivity. Then again, they may not. We’ll see.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 16, 2022 19:24:33 GMT
I hope the entire DA4 cast is gays and lesbians so that it doesnt feel like a checkbox. Well actually make sure we have at least one twink , one bear, and one gymbro. One twink, one bear and one gymbro sounds good (like a blues song) ... as long as there is one heterosexual romance and one playersexual romance for each binary sex (total four).
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 16, 2022 19:37:10 GMT
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