BioWare @bioware "We are the Dalish: keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path. We are the last of the Elvhenan, and never again shall we submit." -The Oath of the Dales
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How would you guys feel if there were missions that were meant to retell the backstory events of our companions? I ask because I'm wondering if just getting setting and character background information through a dialogue wheel might get to exposition heavy (and boring - possibly). Environmental story-telling is also another way to handle characters or a settings history as well. Maybe a poor sap who's body got burned to death during a raid on a village, and the character escaped by setting said individual on fire. If you revisit that place, and have said companion with you, they'll make a quick remark about how said event happened and why they did it.
Like a playable prologue to their Companion quest? Where you play as the companion? That could be a lot of fun.
Sounds like DLC revenue stream ... ie Leliana's Song ...
John Epler @eplerjc: Having been in this industry for a while, one thing has proven out, time and time again. Success belongs to the team, and failure belongs to leadership. No game is a one-person show, or even close.
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
I recall Betrayal at Krondor where you mostly played Jimmy the Hand, but for a couple of chapters you played other characters in the story. It worked well and was a great game at the time. But the central theme was the story, not the character. Bioware builds itself on character and dialogue, so I'm not sure that would match their core strategy.
David Gaider @davidgaider If a future sequel of, say, Dragon Age or Mass Effect required making a previous decision canon, would you be upset?
[ ] Yes, it’d ruin the games
[ ] Yes, if it’s not MY canon
[ ] Not if the story was cool
[ ] It’s a new game it’s fine
Option 5: If internal consistency and rules are preserved. There are a lot of cool & new things you can do in a new game but, if they come at the price of established rules of how the world works and upend consistency, you run the risk of making the audience ask themselves why bother getting invested in the setting/characters/story if a cool & new idea would take precedence over what was previously established. Consistency and rules are just as important as keeping a story fresh and exciting.
Otherwise, it heavily depends on what specific decision we're talking about. If it's something that was always in the players' hands, it won't end well. Videogames pride themselves on interactivity, RPGs more than most, and taking that interactivity away is probably not the best solution.
I'm also curious that it's Gaider asking this.
Last Edit: Apr 18, 2022 20:31:18 GMT by Grog Muffins
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"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." 21 Feb 2019 at 6:59am - It has not been forgotten. It will not be forgiven. We've now met seven times... Revenge is ice cream - Serza, April 2020 Also known as Mike, David, Scott or Bruce
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I recall Betrayal at Krondor where you mostly played Jimmy the Hand, but for a couple of chapters you played other characters in the story. It worked well and was a great game at the time. But the central theme was the story, not the character. Bioware builds itself on character and dialogue, so I'm not sure that would match their core strategy.
Oof.
Right in the memory feels.
Man, I loved that game.
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." 21 Feb 2019 at 6:59am - It has not been forgotten. It will not be forgiven. We've now met seven times... Revenge is ice cream - Serza, April 2020 Also known as Mike, David, Scott or Bruce
If I were more conspiracy-minded, I’d say he’s asking to question because if any of the devs ask it, that inspires a million articles theorizing what BioWare may be plotting.
Also, that jet fuel can’t melt steel beams. It’s all explained here in this pamphlet.
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I don't really want anything canonized, to me it would invalidate your whole play-through. Hence why I was positive to the general idea of MEA as it would let everyone start new without things being rewritten.
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I don't really want anything canonized, to me it would invalidate your whole play-through. Hence why I was positive to the general idea of MEA as it would let everyone start new without things being rewritten.
Well, there is a difference between "would be upset" - which is what he asked, and "would be happy", right?
I don't think huge numbers would be 'happy' about it. I wouldn't be. I think that number would still actually be in the minority, in terms of total people who've played and finished the game where the decision in question was made, but it would be a non-trivial number. But 'upset' about it is taking it up a notch.
Would I want a particular decision - especially a major one - to be made canon? No.
Would I be actually upset that it had? Also no.
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." 21 Feb 2019 at 6:59am - It has not been forgotten. It will not be forgiven. We've now met seven times... Revenge is ice cream - Serza, April 2020 Also known as Mike, David, Scott or Bruce
I don't think huge numbers would be 'happy' about it. I wouldn't be. Would I want a particular decision - especially a major one - to be made canon? No.
I think the most important part regardless who big the decision is can they explain it if event doesn´t end the way the playerbase have thought?
Also personal stories which won´t involved death like Dagna is something there the player shouldn´t have the last word because it would be absurd if some random stranger tell that you shouldn´t follow your dream.
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I don't think huge numbers would be 'happy' about it. I wouldn't be. Would I want a particular decision - especially a major one - to be made canon? No.
I think the most important part regardless who big the decision is can they explain it if event doesn´t end the way the playerbase have thought?
Also personal stories which isn´t involve death like Dagna is something there the player shouldn´t have the last word because it would be absurd if some random stranger tell that you shouldn´t follow your dream.
Yep - as mentioned on another topic, implementation matters.
Using Leliana as an example. Some players killed her. "Well, she was just dreadfully injured, but survived. Deal with it." "But...I cut off her head." ..... "That was a random animation seen in maybe 10% of cases....so....sorry?"
So that was tongue in cheek, but where the decision leaves clear ambiguity (that doesn't make any sense, but you get the idea), that is definitely easier and cleaner. Using something like the MET endings, though, they'd sort of just have to bite the bullet if that is what they're going to do.
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." 21 Feb 2019 at 6:59am - It has not been forgotten. It will not be forgiven. We've now met seven times... Revenge is ice cream - Serza, April 2020 Also known as Mike, David, Scott or Bruce
I recall Betrayal at Krondor where you mostly played Jimmy the Hand, but for a couple of chapters you played other characters in the story. It worked well and was a great game at the time. But the central theme was the story, not the character. Bioware builds itself on character and dialogue, so I'm not sure that would match their core strategy.
Betrayal at Krondor was my first video game and I absolutely loved it. I tried it a second time less than a year ago, but only made it to Chapter 7. Unfortunately, I had mistakenly sold off a magic item component in Chapter 6, and also somehow lost all my lock picking keys. In Chapter 7, I was "trapped" in one section of the map, unable to sell excess inventory at a town, and unable to use locked chests to temporarily hold excess inventory to sell later. Given that I was previously already tired of returning to town constantly in the game to sell excess inventory (in previous chapters), I decided to quit. Inventory management was the one thing I did not like in Betrayal at Krondor when I played it the second time.
By the way, Jimmy the Hand was only in 4 of 9 chapters, but Owyn and Gorath were in 7 of 9 chapters.
John Epler @eplerjc: Having been in this industry for a while, one thing has proven out, time and time again. Success belongs to the team, and failure belongs to leadership. No game is a one-person show, or even close.
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I recall Betrayal at Krondor where you mostly played Jimmy the Hand, but for a couple of chapters you played other characters in the story. It worked well and was a great game at the time. But the central theme was the story, not the character. Bioware builds itself on character and dialogue, so I'm not sure that would match their core strategy.
Betrayal at Krondor was my first video game and I absolutely loved it. I tried it a second time less than a year ago, but only made it to Chapter 7. Unfortunately, I had mistakenly sold off a magic item component in Chapter 6, and also somehow lost all my lock picking keys. In Chapter 7, I was "trapped" in one section of the map, unable to sell excess inventory at a town, and unable to use locked chests to temporarily hold excess inventory to sell later. Given that I was previously already tired of returning to town constantly in the game to sell excess inventory (in previous chapters), I decided to quit. Inventory management was the one thing I did not like in Betrayal at Krondor when I played it the second time.
By the way, Jimmy the Hand was only in 4 of 9 chapters, but Owyn and Gorath were in 7 of 9 chapters.
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." 21 Feb 2019 at 6:59am - It has not been forgotten. It will not be forgiven. We've now met seven times... Revenge is ice cream - Serza, April 2020 Also known as Mike, David, Scott or Bruce
Betrayal at Krondor was my first video game and I absolutely loved it. I tried it a second time less than a year ago, but only made it to Chapter 7. Unfortunately, I had mistakenly sold off a magic item component in Chapter 6, and also somehow lost all my lock picking keys. In Chapter 7, I was "trapped" in one section of the map, unable to sell excess inventory at a town, and unable to use locked chests to temporarily hold excess inventory to sell later. Given that I was previously already tired of returning to town constantly in the game to sell excess inventory (in previous chapters), I decided to quit. Inventory management was the one thing I did not like in Betrayal at Krondor when I played it the second time.
By the way, Jimmy the Hand was only in 4 of 9 chapters, but Owyn and Gorath were in 7 of 9 chapters.
John Epler @eplerjc: Having been in this industry for a while, one thing has proven out, time and time again. Success belongs to the team, and failure belongs to leadership. No game is a one-person show, or even close.
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
By the way, Jimmy the Hand was only in 4 of 9 chapters, but Owyn and Gorath were in 7 of 9 chapters.
I'm not surprised my memory Betrayed me. It was a long time ago. I sometimes wish somebody would remake it, but then I realise they'd turn it into some crappy action game and I'm happy to leave it as a good memory.
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It depends what you mean by this. If you mean something like Jack's personal mission in ME2 or Dorian's in DAI then I'm fine with that. Going somewhere and having it trigger a companion either positively or negatively, allowing you to discover more about them that they hadn't previously revealed, is a good way of revealing information that doesn't just rely on static face to face dialogue. Likewise, may be you discover a letter or something that refers to them or someone they had previously mentioned and you can choose either to keep it to yourself or use it to open up further conversations with them or seek out the writer of the document to discover more.
I'm thinking of allowing the player to experience a point in time in the companions life (before they came into your company). They could be recounting an event in their life that was pivotal for them. I use this as an example because I worry that the reliance on dialogue wheels for exposition dumps gets too stale at some point; especially for elaborate responses from your companions. Having a dedicated mission, where you can play as said character, not only allows you to be in their shoes, but also affords an opportunity to utilize unique gameplay mechanics for said character; spicing up the general gameplay loop.
David Gaider @davidgaider If a future sequel of, say, Dragon Age or Mass Effect required making a previous decision canon, would you be upset?
[ ] Yes, it’d ruin the games
[ ] Yes, if it’s not MY canon
[ ] Not if the story was cool
[ ] It’s a new game it’s fine
David Gaider @davidgaider I ask because there was talk, back in the day, as to whether choices in an RPG were better intended for reactivity *within* a game as opposed to *between* games. The latter is super difficult to maintain in a satisfying way over multiple titles... which is why few games do it.
Naturally, when it comes to Dragon Age and Mass Effect specifically, the fact they've already done it perhaps means that ship has sailed... once the promise of continuity between games has been made, it's probably difficult to go back on it without making many fans angry.
I do wonder, however, whether a *new* title would have that expectation. If an RPG has choices - especially choices that lead to multiple endings - do you, as a player, automatically expect that any follow-up should honor those choices? No matter what the developer says?
I imagine the answer for most would be "no" -- again, most games don't do this, for good reason. Then again, perhaps BioWare's games have created an ideal expectation as to what an RPG (or, at least, an ongoing RPG world) *should* be. It's an interesting question.
Personally, I remember how difficult to was to let go of the Old God Baby being a major plot thing, as it existed in a quantum state that was too expensive to have the divergence I'd originally imagined. I also feel for the Mass Effect developers wrestling with the ME3 endings.
I've always felt there's a big difference between following through on choices in a *satisfying* way. The fans imagine these huge divergences we can't deliver on... so we ultimately end up disappointing most even as we limit our options. So is such continuity *really* worth it?
The answer to that question likely rests with the individual fan. I doubt there's consensus, and the poll reflects that. 20% of the fan base being upset makes for a VERY loud reaction, especially online where every tweet is like a missile fired. So it remains a pickle, I guess.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Read this thread hoping you had a magical answer I had heretofore not considered, but thanks for the pickle.
David Gaider @davidgaider If a future sequel of, say, Dragon Age or Mass Effect required making a previous decision canon, would you be upset?
[ ] Yes, it’d ruin the games
[ ] Yes, if it’s not MY canon
[ ] Not if the story was cool
[ ] It’s a new game it’s fine
For me, personally, I guess it would depend on which choice(s) and how many. I'm sure I'd be fine if they were relatively minor.
But if I were BioWare, I would be *VERY* hesitant to do this. Especially given how the fandom reacts to even small choices being overridden.
Yeah it would depend about on which choices and how major/minor they were to me.
For example if they made the dark ritual canon, deleting my Amell's sacrifice, deleting romanced Alistair's choice to sacrifice himself to save my Aeducan etc, that WOULD upset me.
By comparison: if they decided to make it canon that the warden gave Bevin his family sword in Redcliffe because they're having Sir Bevin show up as a major character in future games, this I wouldn't mind so much. Even though not all my characters gave him the sword it's a fairly minor decision in an optional side quest.
"You are required to do nothing, least of all believe. Shut one's eye tight or open one's arms wider, either way one's a fool." - Flemeth
By the way, Jimmy the Hand was only in 4 of 9 chapters, but Owyn and Gorath were in 7 of 9 chapters.
I'm not surprised my memory Betrayed me. It was a long time ago. I sometimes wish somebody would remake it, but then I realise they'd turn it into some crappy action game and I'm happy to leave it as a good memory.
David Gaider @davidgaider If a future sequel of, say, Dragon Age or Mass Effect required making a previous decision canon, would you be upset?
[ ] Yes, it’d ruin the games
[ ] Yes, if it’s not MY canon
[ ] Not if the story was cool
[ ] It’s a new game it’s fine
Option 4 for me. Call it the disinformation game where truth goes out the window in wartime.... standard practice. Besides, a new game, a Tevinter setting and no old characters gives the writers room to create the story without baggage. It's not a continuation of DA 1-2-3.
Continuing the series with DA4 and retconning some decision(s) can be upsetting but if done well I'll choose option 3. Now, we all are expecting a continuation of the DA saga because Baldy and Varric are in it. However, if our favorite story teller wakes up from a vivid dream where some decision were not truly made, ... well, that should mitigate the issue.
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Corinne Busche 🏳️⚧️ @corinnebusche I eagerly await this moment every play through, just to scream “he had the fucking audacity!”
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Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Normalize naming weapons weird stuff, like a maul called The Point or daggers called Patience and Professionalism.
Corinne Busche 🏳️⚧️ @corinnebusche We would then have to place that maul as a quest objective in the world, so you could, ya know, get to The Point @patrickweekes
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes The point sailed over their head...
Personally, I remember how difficult to was to let go of the Old God Baby being a major plot thing, as it existed in a quantum state that was too expensive to have the divergence I'd originally imagined. I also feel for the Mass Effect developers wrestling with the ME3 endings.
I've already given my thoughts on this subject on the dedicated thread but it is interesting he specifically referenced the OGB as that was the one that immediately sprang to my mind. Also, he does seem to assume that the next ME game will create problems with establishing a canon from the ME3 endings. Is that simply because, like us, he has seen the trailer and assumes this is the case or has he heard more from someone on the inside?
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Read this thread hoping you had a magical answer I had heretofore not considered, but thanks for the pickle
I've mentioned PW having to inherit a half finished story over on the dedicated thread. I don't think our previous decisions should have caused him too many headaches but could he be thinking more about how they will continue the franchise if we are allowed to make a world changing decision at the end of DA4?
I'm thinking of allowing the player to experience a point in time in the companions life (before they came into your company). They could be recounting an event in their life that was pivotal for them.
As I explained in my previous post, I don't mind if they do this as a flashback whilst they are recounting their story to our PC, so our character is actually informed by the narrative, but I don't want it to simply inform me as a player with my character left in ignorance. As I explained before, the problem I have with it is getting inside the head of a companion and essentially experiencing their emotions first hand because that is not the sort of RPG I want to play. I want to immerse myself in my own character and have them interact and understand their companions as I would in real life. If they wanted to issue a separate, optional, DLC as they did with Leliana that is different. That was purely for people who wanted to know more about Leliana's past life but did not impact on her interaction with the HoF in game.
I don't know much about other games people mentioned where they do this, apart from the Witcher which is dealing with established characters from the books, so none can ever be said to be truly your own and you are playing a part rather than creating a character. If they were to go with a dual protagonist, with the other being the Inquisitor, that would be okay but, otherwise, I would rather stick to playing my character and not jump around into the heads of my companions to find out about them.