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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2020 11:54:19 GMT
Yeah, if I have one complaint about the recent stuff it’s how they seem to have gotten rid of the grey of the Qunari and replaced it with just being morally black. My guess is so that it’ll be easier to sympathize with Tevinter after painting them as bad for three games, but that gives me concerns about how that conflict will be handled in DA4. Ah but remember they make it clear the Qun is now split between two factions, with only one group being depicted as the bad guys and being opposed by the other. I think there are clear hints there where that is heading. Likewise with Tevinter where they have the Lucerni, headed up by Dorian and Maevaris, who are the Tevinter good guys attempting some sort of reform (though not necessarily where slavery is concerned), and the corrupt hardliner elements at the opposite extreme who will be the Tevinter bad guys, including probably those who were and may still be committed to the ambitions of the Venatori.
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Post by ClarkKent on Apr 28, 2020 12:48:58 GMT
It truly feels like that way. I feel like Dragon Age has for so long painted Qun as oppressive bad guys that when DA4 comes around and we MAYBE get some kind of '' wait a minute maybe it's not ALL bad '' it's not going to feel genuine. I think it may be something along the lines of the Antaam being the bad guys that need to be stopped but the Ben-Hassrath will working with us to do so. In that way they hope to keep the grey area thing going.
It is an absolute nonsense of course and reminds me of how the Dalish started to be depicted as the bad guys in Masked Empire, which takes some doing when you consider they were being compared with Celene, Gaspard and Briala. Then in DAI they started to introduce all sorts of illogical thinking on their part, such as their attitude to mages, which made them seem worse than the Circles and Chantry. Finally culminating in JoH in placing the blame for the fall of the Dales fully on the shoulders of the Dalish leadership when previously it had been open to doubt and making them collectively seem like idiots with the revelations in Trespasser about their own history, of which apparently they were in total ignorance.
So it does not bode well for the Qun and how their culture is going to be mangled from how it was previously depicted. Mind you I always wondered what happened to their wonderful armour as described in Origins and felt that the Qunari statues and furniture that were depicted in the DLC Spoils of the Qunari did not really fit with the practical culture that had previously been described. After all it was more ostentatious and overblown than that of Orlais. On a somewhat related note. I kinda hate how every faction in Thedas is always embroiled in some kind of civil war between the good 'relatable' guys of the faction and the evil irredeemable guys- basically all the time. It feels like a very manufactured way of having our protagonist kill a load of guys and not feel very bad about it.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 28, 2020 15:12:04 GMT
I think it may be something along the lines of the Antaam being the bad guys that need to be stopped but the Ben-Hassrath will working with us to do so. In that way they hope to keep the grey area thing going.
It is an absolute nonsense of course and reminds me of how the Dalish started to be depicted as the bad guys in Masked Empire, which takes some doing when you consider they were being compared with Celene, Gaspard and Briala. Then in DAI they started to introduce all sorts of illogical thinking on their part, such as their attitude to mages, which made them seem worse than the Circles and Chantry. Finally culminating in JoH in placing the blame for the fall of the Dales fully on the shoulders of the Dalish leadership when previously it had been open to doubt and making them collectively seem like idiots with the revelations in Trespasser about their own history, of which apparently they were in total ignorance.
So it does not bode well for the Qun and how their culture is going to be mangled from how it was previously depicted. Mind you I always wondered what happened to their wonderful armour as described in Origins and felt that the Qunari statues and furniture that were depicted in the DLC Spoils of the Qunari did not really fit with the practical culture that had previously been described. After all it was more ostentatious and overblown than that of Orlais. On a somewhat related note. I kinda hate how every faction in Thedas is always embroiled in some kind of civil war between the good 'relatable' guys of the faction and the evil irredeemable guys- basically all the time. It feels like a very manufactured way of having our protagonist kill a load of guys and not feel very bad about it. Luckily my moral outlook is even more black and white than BioWare's, so I kill the "good" bad guys anyway and still don't feel very bad about it.
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Post by witchcocktor on Apr 28, 2020 15:44:37 GMT
Can't wait for the '' I want to change Qun for the better!! '' companion in DA4.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 4, 2020 18:32:28 GMT
Just realised something else about Three Trees to Midnight (a memory had been nagging at me and finally the penny dropped), Bas-Taar should never exist under that name. According to World of Thedas, a book I wonder why we ever bothered buying the number of times they have contradicted the lore in it since, they do not call recently conquered people "Bas", that term is reserved for foreigners who are not under the control of the Qun.
The term used by the Qunari for recently conquered peoples who have not yet been indoctrinated into the ways of the Qun is "Kabethari", a term that means "simple people".
Once they have been successfully indoctrinated then the term used about the newly converted is "viddathari".
I wish PW would take the trouble to read the lore books properly before he ruins it with his narratives. Was there no peer review process here to check the lore or are they simply not bothered about consistency anymore?
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Post by necrowaif on May 4, 2020 19:11:22 GMT
But Gervaise, if he didn’t use the name Bas-taar, how would he make the totally unnecessary and kind of lame Bas-taard joke?
I'm gonna go lie down now.
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Post by Iddy on May 5, 2020 13:09:26 GMT
Is there hope for a Qunari protagonist in DA4? Or do you guys think it is impossible to make that work?
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Post by phoray on May 5, 2020 13:14:25 GMT
Is there hope for a Qunari protagonist in DA4? Or do you guys think it is impossible to make that work? Could be one of the Antaam that didn't like how that branch has gone crazy. Could be another Ben Hassrath ordered to be involved. And where there is more Qunari, there is more Tal Vashoth. Or even a captured Qunari turned slave, then freed. so ya, I think it's possible. I'm still hoping for the Universal Origin of the PC being a slave. and the Prologue being the staging of a rebellion that gets the attention of the higher ups.
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Post by vertigomez on May 5, 2020 14:56:13 GMT
Is there hope for a Qunari protagonist in DA4? Or do you guys think it is impossible to make that work? Definitely possible. Just like playing anything but a non-mage human in DAO or DAI, the protagonist will have some kind of special immunity (Grey Warden, being the only one who can close the Rifts...) that'll let them walk around as a qunari or elf or whatever in Tevinter. We could start as a POW or a slave or a spy or a defector. All they'd have to do is sprinkle in the same "euugghh oxman heATheN!!1" we got from everybody in the Winter Palace (and elsewhere.... but mostly there) and voila, qunari protagonist who gets to move around largely unhindered. Hell, we could start the game off in Seheron for all we know. There are plenty of Qun-loyal Qunari and Tal-Vashoth up there.
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Post by phoray on May 5, 2020 15:58:50 GMT
vertigomezUgh, I hope they put in more effort than that to make the Qunari experience different. Dwarf was "short human" and Qunari "tall human" in DAI, but at least they were last minute add ons. I expect more from a game that made us wait 7 years.
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Post by Iddy on May 5, 2020 17:12:38 GMT
vertigomezUgh, I hope they put in more effort than that to make the Qunari experience different. Dwarf was "short human" and Qunari "tall human" in DAI, but at least they were last minute add ons. I expect more from a game that made us wait 7 years. I don't understand the high expectations. Back in DAO, it also boiled down to "ugh, elf" and "ugh, mage". You didn't have limitations imposed due to background, except perhaps becoming the Queen of Ferelden.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 5, 2020 17:15:59 GMT
Is there hope for a Qunari protagonist in DA4? Or do you guys think it is impossible to make that work? If it’s the Inquisitor, then there’s no issue.
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Now stealin' more kidz.
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Post by Buckeldemon on May 5, 2020 17:21:54 GMT
Dwarf was "short human" and Qunari "tall human" in DAI, but at least they were last minute add ons. I expect more from a game that made us wait 7 years. You forgot pointy-eared face-tattoed human with the option to ask "Who is Mythal?"
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Post by phoray on May 5, 2020 17:22:02 GMT
I don't understand the high expectations. Back in DAO, it also boiled down to "ugh, elf" and "ugh, mage". I got to bring up my specific background of being an elf during multiple personal camp conversations with Leliana, Alistair, and Zevran. I was excluded from marrying Alistair. As a MAge Elf, I got even more lines. I could intimidate while explicitly referencing my ability to cast fire balls to coerce people to do what I wanted. In DAI, a mage elf often had 5 choices instead of the basic 3. With all the perks (history, they spy stuff), you could have many as 7 choices. But there wasn't a Dwarf and Qunari Picture Option at any point. The qunari mage got the same mage option as a human or elf. And dwarf didnt even have that. Outside of a war table mission and a conversation with Josephine when she inquired about your past there was...nothing? even worse than nothing? because Iron Bull would say you weren't even a real qunari, so you had no idea what you were talking about.
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Post by phoray on May 5, 2020 17:23:47 GMT
You forgot pointy-eared face-tattoed human with the option to ask "Who is Mythal?" To be fair, there was only a few mis steps with the elf. But there are somewhere between 5-10 elf specific lines given to an Elf-quisitor. 0 for the dwarf and Qunari. and yes, I feel like the difference between 0-2 and 5-10 is a big difference. Part of what I loved about Dragon Age Orgins is that what gender and race I were constantly came up.
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Post by vertigomez on May 5, 2020 17:38:59 GMT
vertigomez Ugh, I hope they put in more effort than that to make the Qunari experience different. Dwarf was "short human" and Qunari "tall human" in DAI, but at least they were last minute add ons. I expect more from a game that made us wait 7 years. My hope is definitely that race choice will be more impactful and well-integrated than in DAI. Hopefully multiple races are part of the process from the beginning, and not slapped on hastily at the last minute. Not that I didn't appreciate the effort in DAI.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on May 5, 2020 17:59:27 GMT
I don't understand the high expectations. Back in DAO, it also boiled down to "ugh, elf" and "ugh, mage". You didn't have limitations imposed due to background, except perhaps becoming the Queen of Ferelden. That wasn't really the point. Yes, there were only a few limitations because of race but we also had the origin stories that meant that each location we visited could have specific connection with that race or class of Warden. That for me was what made the whole thing so interesting. There were lots of race specific conversations and/or plotlines that you actually got involved in that were personal to you, unlike DAI when all we got were a few lines from Josephine and the war table missions, then when your clan got massacred no one batted an eyelid, even your PC. Anyway, there's no point in nostalgia at this point, we are unlikely to ever get that sort of personal involvement again, unless they pull another Hawke on us and give us only one race and background. In any case, the setting that I got so immersed in is being gradually chipped away so that it is no longer the game I loved. The Qunari are a case in point. They were interesting because they not only looked different but they had a totally different philosophy by which they lived that was as alien to us in the real world as it was to the people of Thedas. The whole point of the Qun seemed to be that they created a fairer society for all (except mages) but at the expense of personal freedom. Nevertheless, the marginalised people of Thedas often saw the Qun as a way out of their downtrodden existence where they were constantly exploited by the ruling elite, so didn't need conquering as they joined up willingly. The strength of the Qun was in its unity, the whole society working as a single organism, combining mind, body and spirit and everyone being valued because they all had an important role in it, whether farmer, baker, soldier or priestess. Even mages are pitied and honoured for the struggles they must face in order to keep themselves from possession and the rest of their community safe. Now it is being eroded bit by bit. You know I always thought Iron Bull was being rather dishonest when talking about how the mages of our Inner Circle would fair under the Qun. Knowing what I did, I thought he was being rather selective with his information considering all foreign mages are routinely given qamek. Now it is clear that they were already thinking about altering this fact and so Bull was just voicing the truth about how the Ben-Hassrath would treat foreign mages depending on how willing they were to accept the Qun and how useful they might prove to be.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 5, 2020 18:35:55 GMT
Another thing that ignores previous history regarding the Qun. It is being alleged that the reason the Antaam has made such inroads into Tevinter is that it is no longer being "held back" by the priesthood. This ignores the fact that the Qunari formerly conquered half of Thedas when they were united as Mind, Body and Spirit. There are varying reasons why they were ultimately pushed back. - List item 1
- List item 2
- List item 3
- List item 4
- List item 5
Now we are to understand that a disunited Qun is going to be as successful as that original push, even though there should be no element of surprise (if Tevinter agents were doing their job properly) and everybody knows they are there. I can understand thinking the time was right for renewing their attack on Tevinter mainland after a break of 30 years, because their agents would have reported the disunity in Tevinter after Corypheus, but why would this not have the blessing of the priesthood when the Arishok has always been responsible for military strategy? Why would the Arishok start a major military campaign without the backing of the Mind and Spirit since success would be based on having good supply lines maintained, so they are kept fed and equipped, keeping up morale and dealing properly with conquered peoples, so they are more willing to accept the Qun over their former leaders. It is much easier to keep control when the local population aren't constantly undermining you.
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Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
Posts: 15,023 Likes: 35,825
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Apr 24, 2024 13:28:59 GMT
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https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on May 5, 2020 20:36:17 GMT
Myself and Most Holy Mother Superior Petrice will rid this land of the horned devils and send them back to whatever evil lands they came from across the sea.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on May 5, 2020 21:47:55 GMT
Is there hope for a Qunari protagonist in DA4? Or do you guys think it is impossible to make that work?
For the love of God I hope not!
DA:O and DA:2 clearly showed the Qunari culture to be totally weird and incompatible with Thedas cultures. Qun philosophy hates disorder and we humans/elves like it... we thrive in it. The Arishok made this point quite clear in DA2.
Bull broke canon with what the Qun indoctrination is all about in DA:I.... I guess that is why I never had him as a companion...
If Bio has such an option in DA4 I will be greatly disappointed... Still, if the game is any good I'll buy it and use anyone but a Quanari as the Protagonist.
Different strokes.......
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Post by Sartoz on May 5, 2020 21:49:02 GMT
Myself and Most Holy Mother Superior Petrice will rid this land of the horned devils and send them back to whatever evil lands they came from across the sea.
Count me in.
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Post by Buckeldemon on May 6, 2020 0:06:26 GMT
Myself and Most Holy Mother Superior Petrice will rid this land of the horned devils and send them back to whatever evil lands they came from across the sea. You are aware that the life expectancy of Petrice's tools supporters isn't that great, right? Besides, this gave me an idea. Some templar nutjob for whatever reason manages to recover her cold, lifeless body from Kirkwall. The templar also got his hands on Quentin's research notes, so he pulls a Lambert, has evil magic used and sowmehow manages to make some Leandra-style Petri-zombie to inspire "the faithful". Great, cannot un-imagine this now. Is there hope for a Qunari protagonist in DA4? Or do you guys think it is impossible to make that work?
For the love of God I hope not!
DA:O and DA:2 clearly showed the Qunari culture to be totally weird and incompatible with Thedas cultures. Qun philosophy hates disorder and we humans/elves like it... we thrive in it. The Arishok made this point quite clear in DA2. For what it is worth, pretty much any of Thedas' religiously influenced superpowers does not quite like disorder. To me, Chantry-based babbling is just as much alien as the Qun's teachings. Both are ultimately theocratic oppressors bent on controlling my thoughts. And I don't count myself among the weird "we" that sometimes comes up on this board, that is possibly andrastian humans, and I would not put any elf into that box anyway. Andrastianism as well as "old" Tevinter culture is about "humans first", right?
With that being said, I think that a Follower of the Qun who does not go AWOL at some point is rather problematic for a different reason. Having your dialogue choices limited to
1. "I obey" *Dalek-style intonation*
and
2 *being sent to re-eduaction or quamek'd*
isn't that great of a roleplay opportunity.
I doubt I could get into their mindset, same thing as with andrastians. On the other hand, at least the Qun is suffienciently "alien" to be intriguing, unlike that gender-flipped amalgam of the worst christian/abrahamitic ideas with a different paintjob.
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Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
Posts: 15,023 Likes: 35,825
inherit
Little Pumpkin
314
0
Apr 24, 2024 13:28:59 GMT
35,825
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15,023
August 2016
beerfish
https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Beerfish
Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on May 6, 2020 1:03:37 GMT
Myself and Most Holy Mother Superior Petrice will rid this land of the horned devils and send them back to whatever evil lands they came from across the sea. You are aware that the life expectancy of Petrice's tools supporters isn't that great, right? Besides, this gave me an idea. Some templar nutjob for whatever reason manages to recover her cold, lifeless body from Kirkwall. The templar also got his hands on Quentin's research notes, so he pulls a Lambert, has evil magic used and sowmehow manages to make some Leandra-style Petri-zombie to inspire "the faithful". Great, cannot un-imagine this now.
For the love of God I hope not!
DA:O and DA:2 clearly showed the Qunari culture to be totally weird and incompatible with Thedas cultures. Qun philosophy hates disorder and we humans/elves like it... we thrive in it. The Arishok made this point quite clear in DA2. For what it is worth, pretty much any of Thedas' religiously influenced superpowers does not quite like disorder. To me, Chantry-based babbling is just as much alien as the Qun's teachings. Both are ultimately theocratic oppressors bent on controlling my thoughts. And I don't count myself among the weird "we" that sometimes comes up on this board, that is possibly andrastian humans, and I would not put any elf into that box anyway. Andrastianism as well as "old" Tevinter culture is about "humans first", right?
With that being said, I think that a Follower of the Qun who does not go AWOL at some point is rather problematic for a different reason. Having your dialogue choices limited to
1. "I obey" *Dalek-style intonation*
and
2 *being sent to re-eduaction or quamek'd*
isn't that great of a roleplay opportunity.
I doubt I could get into their mindset, same thing as with andrastians. On the other hand, at least the Qun is suffienciently "alien" to be intriguing, unlike that gender-flipped amalgam of the worst christian/abrahamitic ideas with a different paintjob.
Lambert and Petrice were two of the the more reasonable people tn the whole series. Oh they are portrayed as great villains but they were anything but.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on May 6, 2020 17:46:50 GMT
Lambert and Petrice were two of the the more reasonable people tn the whole series. Oh they are portrayed as great villains but they were anything but. Well I always had a problem with Petrice but I feel that Lambert had an interesting viewpoint because he had at one time trusted a Tevinter Magister. He had helped him become Black Divine, when I am sure Lambert was foreseeing some room for a unification between north and south (which I assume lay behind his secondment to the north by his superiors), or at least the removal of the corruption within the Tevinter elite, only to discover that Urian had been playing him all the time. Unfortunately, DG decided to make him a wholly unsympathetic character in the rest of his actions, so he just became a standard religious fanatic. To be honest though, I thought he was right to be shocked and upset at what Justinia had been doing behind the scenes with Pharamond's experiment, the disastrous outcome to which, so far as the inhabitants of Adamant were concerned, only seemed to confirm the need for magic to be carefully monitored. If the debate had been focussed on those aspects of political corruption and dangers of magic, rather than the Rite of Tranquility, it would have been far more interesting.
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Post by vertigomez on May 7, 2020 1:09:05 GMT
we interrupt this broadcast.... for art 🖼 carry on~
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