Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Mar 19, 2019 3:22:04 GMT
The Catalyst said that Shepard getting there (to the spot where Anderson died, we have to assume) changed the variables. New possibilities were opened up. As I read it, the Reapers were a temporary solution until the real one can be found. This is even borne out by the Leviathan waiting in the wings for that solution to be found. They said so when Shepard encountered them. Theory: The Catalyst took a risk, hoping Shepard would make some different choices. Possible solutions available depends on Shepard's mindset (game mechanics using EMS). If Shepard has done things to create a low EMS, only two options exist: kill or be killed. Medium(?) EMS opens up Control. High EMS offers Synthesis. The more open Shepard might be to other ideas, the more options exist. Perhaps none of that is obvious to the Catalyst until Shepard is right before it. It's gambling that it can persuade Shepard to make a sacrifice for what it sees as a better world, for itself, for the Reapers, for synthetics and for organics. I assumed that when the catalyst said the crucible changed me it meant that literally. That the crucible effectively hacked him and gave him 3 additional commands. Initially before extended ending just 3 commands with no refuse option. But it needed someone to hit the buttons so it brought Shepard to it. The catalyst wasn’t taking a risk or making a decision it had no choice as it got hacked. Didn't Starbrat also say that the Crucible was little more than a power source?
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Mar 19, 2019 3:29:07 GMT
I assumed that when the catalyst said the crucible changed me it meant that literally. That the crucible effectively hacked him and gave him 3 additional commands. Initially before extended ending just 3 commands with no refuse option. But it needed someone to hit the buttons so it brought Shepard to it. The catalyst wasn’t taking a risk or making a decision it had no choice as it got hacked. Didn't Starbrat also say that the Crucible was little more than a power source? Could be. I'm happy when I remember yesterday, so I'm sure I forgot a wide range of lines in that interaction that I didn't have a oh i bet that means X moment for.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 8:15:36 GMT
I'm only literally describing what we've been shown... and asking you to fill the "hole" in your interpretation. What IS the Catalyst's motivation for allowing Shepard to gain access to the controls that trigger the Crucible? It's in the best interest of the Reapers that the Crucible just never fire... and that's the state of things when Shepard collapses in front of the console. Refuse even bears this out... IF Shepard does nothing, the harvest continues. The old solution works just fine. The Catalyst said that Shepard getting there (to the spot where Anderson died, we have to assume) changed the variables. New possibilities were opened up. As I read it, the Reapers were a temporary solution until the real one can be found. This is even borne out by the Leviathan waiting in the wings for that solution to be found. They said so when Shepard encountered them. Theory: The Catalyst took a risk, hoping Shepard would make some different choices. Possible solutions available depends on Shepard's mindset (game mechanics using EMS). If Shepard has done things to create a low EMS, only two options exist: kill or be killed. Medium(?) EMS opens up Control. High EMS offers Synthesis. The more open Shepard might be to other ideas, the more options exist. Perhaps none of that is obvious to the Catalyst until Shepard is right before it. It's gambling that it can persuade Shepard to make a sacrifice for what it sees as a better world, for itself, for the Reapers, for synthetics and for organics. You're still not understanding. Sure, the Catalyst says a lot of things... but that's all after he brings Shepard to him. Why does the Catalyst bring Shepard there? Why not just leave him where he feel down. Even if he does get up again on his own (which he doesn't), Shepard cannot access the Crucible triggers from there... so, the Crucible IS effectively disabled and no threat to the Reapers at all. Refuse verifies that notion. If Shepard does nothing, the harvest continues. So, it stands that if Shepard can't do anything, the harvest would just continue. Why grant Shepard any access to the Crucible triggers at all? The Reapers won the moment Hackett couldn't fire the Crucible remotely.
AI don't hope and they don't take risks... Those are organic traits.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 8:25:48 GMT
The Catalyst said that Shepard getting there (to the spot where Anderson died, we have to assume) changed the variables. New possibilities were opened up. As I read it, the Reapers were a temporary solution until the real one can be found. This is even borne out by the Leviathan waiting in the wings for that solution to be found. They said so when Shepard encountered them. Theory: The Catalyst took a risk, hoping Shepard would make some different choices. Possible solutions available depends on Shepard's mindset (game mechanics using EMS). If Shepard has done things to create a low EMS, only two options exist: kill or be killed. Medium(?) EMS opens up Control. High EMS offers Synthesis. The more open Shepard might be to other ideas, the more options exist. Perhaps none of that is obvious to the Catalyst until Shepard is right before it. It's gambling that it can persuade Shepard to make a sacrifice for what it sees as a better world, for itself, for the Reapers, for synthetics and for organics. I assumed that when the catalyst said the crucible changed me it meant that literally. That the crucible effectively hacked him and gave him 3 additional commands. Initially before extended ending just 3 commands with no refuse option. But it needed someone to hit the buttons so it brought Shepard to it. The catalyst wasn’t taking a risk or making a decision it had no choice as it got hacked. OK, let's run with that. If the Crucible hacked the Catalyst and gave it new commands... then the humans are already in Control of the Catalyst and the Reapers. No choice is needed from Shepard to win the war... but refuse doesn't bear that out. If Shepard refuses to do anything, the harvest continues. The Catalyst, therefore, is still in control of itself and it's minions.
My real point here, though, is that each ending still requires interpretation by the individual player... and, IMO, all interpretations are based on what the player sees on screen combined with their personal belief system (or, in my case, the belief system I've used to construct that particular Shepard). All interpretations, iMO, are valid... none should be canon.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 19, 2019 10:50:37 GMT
This is actually what gives IT legs. Because we HAVE seen Reapers lying to people, convincing them that they are presenting them with "solutions" "I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines. And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed."not trusting the catalyst is understandable. you can role-play your shepard into thinking "WTF is going on??? Is this... ghost-boy playing with me? He claims to be the reapers boss... is he messing with my mind?? Go to hell, you creepy strabrat!". And this would be a perfectly credible Shepard. But Leviathan + EC ending slides with hackett/Edi/Shepard narrative voice + refusal ending addition, combined together, make IT VERY difficult (or in any case unnecessary) to advocate. Strange as it was, the catalyst was actually telling the truth. You are clearly not seeing Shepard waking up where he fell. Again, WHY would the catalyst bring Shepard to him? The Crucible has failed to fire (Hackett clearly tells us that nothing is happening). At that moment, the Reapers can just win the war... continue their harvest. They don't need a new solution. The old solution (harvesting), will work yet again because the Crucible at that point has failed yet again. So, why does a logical AI snatch defeat from the jaws victory by bringing Shepard to him so that Shepard now would have access to the triggers that fire the Crucible?
Even if Shepard "wakes up" on his/her own (which is clearly not the case since he/she doesn't move until the Catalyst tells him/her to "wake up.")... but even IF he/she did wake up on their own, he/she has no access to the space where the Catalyst is without being raised on the platform... and the control for that platform is certainly nowhere in sight. It's obviously not the console where Anderson was standing before Shepard entered and where Shepard stood only moments before... and he/she never reached the console again to try to trigger anything new. He/she clearly collapses before being able to reach it.
I'm only literally describing what we've been shown... and asking you to fill the "hole" in your interpretation. What IS the Catalyst's motivation for allowing Shepard to gain access to the controls that trigger the Crucible? It's in the best interest of the Reapers that the Crucible just never fire... and that's the state of things when Shepard collapses in front of the console. Refuse even bears this out... IF Shepard does nothing, the harvest continues. The old solution works just fine. man, you are impossible Ok fine. If you see an injured man falling and then rising, it is obviously (obviously!)because of god's intervention, and thus everything that happens next is set in the afterlife. Sure, there are no other possible, simpler explanations that are consistent with the data available. Must be the afterlife. The Catalyst explicitly tells you WHY IS HE HELPING Shepard (the variables have been changed, a new solution is needed, you're free to choose, he can't make it happen... man, there DIALOGUES ABOUT THAT) and explicitly tells you tha his SOLUTION DOES NOT WORK ANYMORE (and refusal ending confirms it), but you keep saying "Why is the catalyst helping shepard?" "It's solution still works perfectly"... when the game is telling you the exact opposite. the "asimovian psyico-historical" variables of the catalyst have been modified, and that alone is enough to justify this change of conduct. IMO, you're manipulating the ending to your liking, adding things like God in the Afterlife, ignoring explicit statements etc. It's perfectly ok, don't get me wrong, but honestly your theory is the most fu**ed-up "let's-go-full-headcanon" theory I've ever read For example, the "hacking theory" is simple, linear, consistent with virtually every other data available. It is sufficient to hypothesize that "the crucible changed me" means "the crucible hacked me and it is forcing me to help you" and that's it.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 19, 2019 11:53:47 GMT
Why does the Catalyst bring Shepard there? Why not just leave him where he feel down. Since you say the thing activated the platform bringing Shepard up to where it's at, can you answer why it would say, Why are you here, if ems is below 2700? Really? As the platform is being raised, Shepard's hand is hanging over the edge. During that time, Shepard regained consciousness to get on his/her hands and knees, and turn around before the platform stops rising. Hackett wanted to activate the crucible remotely? Or is this another part of your headcanon?
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dmc1001
N7
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2019 13:32:11 GMT
You're still not understanding. Sure, the Catalyst says a lot of things... but that's all after he brings Shepard to him. Why does the Catalyst bring Shepard there? Why not just leave him where he feel down. I covered that. The Catalyst was actively seeking a new solution. The Leviathan outright said that they were lingering around in the shadows for that solution to become available.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 13:49:32 GMT
This is actually what gives IT legs. Because we HAVE seen Reapers lying to people, convincing them that they are presenting them with "solutions" "I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines. And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed."not trusting the catalyst is understandable. you can role-play your shepard into thinking "WTF is going on??? Is this... ghost-boy playing with me? He claims to be the reapers boss... is he messing with my mind?? Go to hell, you creepy strabrat!". And this would be a perfectly credible Shepard. But Leviathan + EC ending slides with hackett/Edi/Shepard narrative voice + refusal ending addition, combined together, make IT VERY difficult (or in any case unnecessary) to advocate. Strange as it was, the catalyst was actually telling the truth. You are clearly not seeing Shepard waking up where he fell. Again, WHY would the catalyst bring Shepard to him? The Crucible has failed to fire (Hackett clearly tells us that nothing is happening). At that moment, the Reapers can just win the war... continue their harvest. They don't need a new solution. The old solution (harvesting), will work yet again because the Crucible at that point has failed yet again. So, why does a logical AI snatch defeat from the jaws victory by bringing Shepard to him so that Shepard now would have access to the triggers that fire the Crucible?
Even if Shepard "wakes up" on his/her own (which is clearly not the case since he/she doesn't move until the Catalyst tells him/her to "wake up.")... but even IF he/she did wake up on their own, he/she has no access to the space where the Catalyst is without being raised on the platform... and the control for that platform is certainly nowhere in sight. It's obviously not the console where Anderson was standing before Shepard entered and where Shepard stood only moments before... and he/she never reached the console again to try to trigger anything new. He/she clearly collapses before being able to reach it.
I'm only literally describing what we've been shown... and asking you to fill the "hole" in your interpretation. What IS the Catalyst's motivation for allowing Shepard to gain access to the controls that trigger the Crucible? It's in the best interest of the Reapers that the Crucible just never fire... and that's the state of things when Shepard collapses in front of the console. Refuse even bears this out... IF Shepard does nothing, the harvest continues. The old solution works just fine. man, you are impossible Ok fine. If you see an injured man falling and then rising, it is obviously (obviously!)because of god's intervention, and thus everything that happens next is set in the afterlife. Sure, there are no other possible, simpler explanations that are consistent with the data available. Must be the afterlife. The Catalyst explicitly tells you WHY IS HE HELPING Shepard (the variables have been changed, a new solution is needed, you're free to choose, he can't make it happen... man, there DIALOGUES ABOUT THAT) and explicitly tells you tha his SOLUTION DOES NOT WORK ANYMORE (and refusal ending confirms it), but you keep saying "Why is the catalyst helping shepard?" "It's solution still works perfectly"... when the game is telling you the exact opposite. the "asimovian psyico-historical" variables of the catalyst have been modified, and that alone is enough to justify this change of conduct. IMO, you're manipulating the ending to your liking, adding things like God in the Afterlife, ignoring explicit statements etc. It's perfectly ok, don't get me wrong, but honestly your theory is the most fu**ed-up "let's-go-full-headcanon" theory I've ever read For example, the "hacking theory" is simple, linear, consistent with virtually every other data available. It is sufficient to hypothesize that "the crucible changed me" means "the crucible hacked me and it is forcing me to help you" and that's it. I can role play my Shepard any way that I can see a way, through the available dialogue, of supporting (to MY satisfaction) his personality and belief systems. Whether or not you "approve" is of absolutely no consequence to me. Likewise, I absolutely don't care about what interpretations you make or find satisfactory or unsatisfactory to your playthroughs... but THEY ARE interpretations. Get off your soap box in claiming that you're not making any interpretation... when you actually are.
You don't need to "sell" on your interpretation. I'm the one here defending all of them... asking that Bioware not expunge any of them by declaring a canon ending to ME3. That's my preference. It's not necessary to put one group's interpretation above ANY other interpretation to move the franchise forward... as much as people keep asserting that it is and pushing for it. The dialogue and imagery is vague enough to support multiple interpretations of the endings and the decisions throughout the game. It's also that vagueness that means it doesn't perfectly support any single interpretation. The game doesn't tell us in any sort of absolutely way what is morally "right" and what is morally "wrong." It at least tries to respect that, IRL, people have differing views on a lot of moral issues. It's not agnostic - it acknowledges that some people believe in god. It doesn't declare in any absolute way that AI are alive or not. It doesn't declare that eliminating would be genocide... but it allows for a POV that says it COULD be and, at the same time, the opposing POV that it wouldn't be. I don't cherish Mass Effect for it's materialism (You do and you can). I cherish Mass Effect because you can and, at the same time, I can cherish it for its religious symbolism and its poetry.
So, on that note... I'm ending this because I'm tired of repeating myself. Have a nice day.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Mar 19, 2019 14:09:14 GMT
I assumed that when the catalyst said the crucible changed me it meant that literally. That the crucible effectively hacked him and gave him 3 additional commands. Initially before extended ending just 3 commands with no refuse option. But it needed someone to hit the buttons so it brought Shepard to it. The catalyst wasn’t taking a risk or making a decision it had no choice as it got hacked. OK, let's run with that. If the Crucible hacked the Catalyst and gave it new commands... then the humans are already in Control of the Catalyst and the Reapers. No choice is needed from Shepard to win the war... but refuse doesn't bear that out. If Shepard refuses to do anything, the harvest continues. The Catalyst, therefore, is still in control of itself and it's minions.
My real point here, though, is that each ending still requires interpretation by the individual player... and, IMO, all interpretations are based on what the player sees on screen combined with their personal belief system (or, in my case, the belief system I've used to construct that particular Shepard). All interpretations, iMO, are valid... none should be canon.
I disagree with the premise that them needing to activate it or refuse changed whether or not the catalyst was hacked. It’s still an AI and will eventually make its own decision. Hacking it just gives you the opportunity to hit one of the override buttons. You still have to act on it. Your second or real point I agree with and understood to be your point from the get go. You were fairly explicit in that early on.
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