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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 14:53:07 GMT
I feel you're the only one confused actually because what I was saying has nothing to do with what you stated. I NEVER said a game had to be fully released during any part of my post. Stay in your lane "Mate"... I'm 42 and have been playing online games since 1997. I know and understand QoL... Stay in my lane? Back off. I directly quoted you, so you clearly don't understand quality of life do you? It doesn't mean we'll fix bugs later at all. It means we'll keep listening to feedback to a live game and keep updating. Oh I clearly understand. You may not like what I have to say but I sure as hell understand. I never said that QoL as a term is ALWAYS used in that way (Just to fix bugs later), but it is used that way. At this point you just seem to be butthurt because I'm critiquing a phrase that you seem to know that is only used in that way 100% of the time. You seem to be venting your frustration towards me and that's fine. I like seeing a man with his mascara running...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 14:53:52 GMT
I'm 42 and have been playing online games since 1997. I know and understand QoL... Yes, because games are exactly like in 1997. Nothing changed since then, nope. LOL...ok! Nothing else to add? That the best you got?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2019 14:55:21 GMT
Yes, because games are exactly like in 1997. Nothing changed since then, nope. LOL...ok! Nothing else to add? That the best you got? There's nothing more to add here.
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Post by shinobiwan on Feb 7, 2019 14:58:19 GMT
The problem with QoL (at least in the way Devs use it now ) generally means that, "We'll fix the bugs later with our on going support"...just to end up never fixing those bugs. This isn't a new trend either. Consumers have basically been integrated into the QC process for over a decade now and it's only getting worse. I generally don't like "live services" because you never truly know what you'll get from them. Devs tend to over hype and under perform with this model habitually. Guild Wars 2 is a prime example of this for me. In the beginning it was a really good game that fell off drastically. Destiny is another good example. Lol no it's not. When bungo do QoL changes its usually buffing or nerfing guns, changing powers and perks, making drops more frequent it less frequent, adding something to a rotation, adding heavy ammo or reducing it. Quality of life is the continued support of a game. Mate, it's 2019. We're discussing an online game that is going to be constantly updated and changed. You want them to release it and then just leave it as is? This thread is so fucking confusing. No, those are balance changes. No one is complaining about those kinds of changes post-launch.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2019 15:00:59 GMT
Lol no it's not. When bungo do QoL changes its usually buffing or nerfing guns, changing powers and perks, making drops more frequent it less frequent, adding something to a rotation, adding heavy ammo or reducing it. Quality of life is the continued support of a game. Mate, it's 2019. We're discussing an online game that is going to be constantly updated and changed. You want them to release it and then just leave it as is? This thread is so fucking confusing. No, those are balance changes. No one is complaining about those kinds of changes post-launch. Nobody is complaining NOW. It was as much a point of contention not that long ago, when things were more static than they are and people were even less used to the idea that the game can change or improve over time.
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Post by hawkspian on Feb 7, 2019 15:02:54 GMT
Lol no it's not. When bungo do QoL changes its usually buffing or nerfing guns, changing powers and perks, making drops more frequent it less frequent, adding something to a rotation, adding heavy ammo or reducing it. Quality of life is the continued support of a game. Mate, it's 2019. We're discussing an online game that is going to be constantly updated and changed. You want them to release it and then just leave it as is? This thread is so fucking confusing. No, those are balance changes. No one is complaining about those kinds of changes post-launch. That is quality of life. Bugs are included which are bound to pop up.
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Post by saandrig on Feb 7, 2019 15:03:26 GMT
I was under the impression that new content was going to be developed after release depending on how much money they make with MTX. If they've got new content developed and lined up already for a staggered release, this is fine actually for the most part. You are actually pretty spot on in maybe a slightly different way. If Anthem underperforms, then (based on EAs track record) all the post launch content will be either delayed or reduced in size (or both). The reason will be because EA will cut down the funding for further development. Most recent example - Battlefront 2. I doubt Bioware has finished the work on the stuff that will be added in March. As it is right now (limited info, I know) the endgame content is not big. If BW had more completed extra stuff to add, I suspect they would have done it at launch. Or if they have completely developed content and hold it back (unlikely), then maybe they got nothing else in a good development state that can be finished in the next 3+ months. You will notice there is no time table past March. And for a good reason. BW doesn't know how hard they will get hit with EA's axe after launch and how much funding they will have for the later content. I do hope EA will try to make Anthem a success. It's one of their most anticipated games this year (along Respawn's SW game) and from a PR perspective there is a potential to get a lot of good will from the players, but only if Anthem receives the required funding to expand well post launch.
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Post by PillarBiter on Feb 7, 2019 15:04:52 GMT
Can we kiss and make up now? You're ruining anthem state of hype for the rest of us Also, can we talk about the title 'echoes of reality'? This indicates to me that there is some sort of reality dysfunction (heart of rage?) which we restore at the end of the main game. And the echoes are new signings we get after having restored it, but maybe created by something / someone different? I.e. a new antagonist? Would this also bring... new enemies?
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Post by hawkspian on Feb 7, 2019 15:05:07 GMT
Stay in my lane? Back off. I directly quoted you, so you clearly don't understand quality of life do you? It doesn't mean we'll fix bugs later at all. It means we'll keep listening to feedback to a live game and keep updating. Oh I clearly understand. You may not like what I have to say but I sure as hell understand. I never said that QoL as a term is ALWAYS used in that way (Just to fix bugs later), but it is used that way. At this point you just seem to be butthurt because I'm critiquing a phrase that you seem to know that is only used in that way 100% of the time. You seem to be venting your frustration towards me and that's fine. I like seeing a man with his mascara running... Did you just assume my gender? You are showing your age 😉 anyway I'm not butt hurt in the slightest. Just correcting you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 15:09:34 GMT
LOL...ok! Nothing else to add? That the best you got? There's nothing more to add here. Your problem is that you're all over the place. You literally agree with me in another post to someone else that you've seen QoL used differently... " The difference between now and then was that - aside from being given a fancy name - before this was mostly about bug-fixes and small improvements the devs could add if they've had the opportunity or resources to work on them post-release, while now they are becoming a vital part of game's lifespan, with their heft and frequency growing the more 'updateable' the game is designed to be." But you fail to see it from my point of view now? Live services is suppose to be the way that you're arguing about that isn't always the case. That's my entire argument! That's it. Pretty simple right? At least I thought it was... I'm not saying you're butthurt but there are quite a few people on here that defend ANY critique of Bioware as if they're somehow different from the flaws of other Devs. In the end we'll just have to take a "wait and see" approach to Anthem and hope it isn't another Destiny... Edit for spelling...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 15:16:02 GMT
Can we kiss and make up now? You're ruining anthem state of hype for the rest of us Also, can we talk about the title 'echoes of reality'? This indicates to me that there is some sort of reality dysfunction (heart of rage?) which we restore at the end of the main game. And the echoes are new signings we get after having restored it, but maybe created by something / someone different? I.e. a new antagonist? Would this also bring... new enemies? I assure you that isn't my intention. While I've fell out of favor with multiplayer games I'd never want to ruin someone else's pleasure for them. I feel several people on here are taking what I've stated and tried to integrate them with others in this discussion (essentially lumping us all together). My problem is with believing any or all Devs with the use of the term "Live Service". We have no clue what we'll get until everything is said and done. It may be great or it may be shit. It can swing either way...
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2019 15:25:03 GMT
I was under the impression that new content was going to be developed after release depending on how much money they make with MTX. If they've got new content developed and lined up already for a staggered release, this is fine actually for the most part. You are actually pretty spot on for the most part. If Anthem underperforms, then (based on EAs track record) all the post launch content will be either delayed or reduced in size (or both). The reason will be because EA will cut down the funding for further development. Most recent example - Battlefront 2. I doubt Bioware has finished the work on the stuff that will be added in March. As it is right now (limited info, I know) the endgame content is not big. If BW had more completed extra stuff to add, I suspect they would have done it at launch. Or if they have completely developed content and hold it back (unlikely), then maybe they got nothing else in a good development state that can be finished in the next 3+ months. ...Or we really should stop thinking that 'launch' is a time when games like this are released to the wild with all/most content they've planned to eventually add and that game changing and growing with time is the point. This is not the first game on the market that does it, just the first Bioware one... if you don't count SWTOR. Also - Battlefront 2 is a serialized game. It had 2 installments already. It's better for them to cut losses and start developing the 3rd one (which will likely be way more live-servicey tho). Count into that the fact that Star Wars games also double as basically promo material for Disney-produced movies - they have a say in them as well, and they have Episode IX scheduled for release in 2019. Fallen Order will coincide with that release, but DICE needs to be hard at work for the next one. Anthem simply doesn't work like that. So there's no other reason to do that - like trying to spoil a story they are very careful not to spoil now? Not triggering revenue recognition? Not having a full set of updates complete, because they will be at least partially reactive to community's wishes? I'd be very surprised if Anthem didn't secure funding for long past launch, given the type of the game it is and given that EA is carefully watching the market and likely sees that long-term investments into live service games is not only cheaper than developing a new full game, but also can be responsible for more than half of the revenue. They're not going to cut their losses the moment Anthem "flops" at launch (assuming that it even happens) - recent gaming scene knows too many flops that have turned into power-houses with enough support behind them. I know, I play at least one myself. It's been 5 years and the game is stronger and healthier than ever, with highly-anticipated DLCs and expansions this year - and that's after it took it about 2 years to get its bearings after a pretty bad launch.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 15:25:14 GMT
Oh I clearly understand. You may not like what I have to say but I sure as hell understand. I never said that QoL as a term is ALWAYS used in that way (Just to fix bugs later), but it is used that way. At this point you just seem to be butthurt because I'm critiquing a phrase that you seem to know that is only used in that way 100% of the time. You seem to be venting your frustration towards me and that's fine. I like seeing a man with his mascara running... Did you just assume my gender? You are showing your age 😉 anyway I'm not butt hurt in the slightest. Just correcting you. I probably went a little overboard (just a little)... I still feel that you didn't correct me in way though because there isn't anything to correct. Devs have (in the past) past off bug patches as QoL. I'm not saying that ALL QoL patches are bug fixes but it is use too often. As for my age...my mind is sharp and have more muscle on me now than in my 20's. I just don't recover the same
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 7, 2019 15:31:55 GMT
Funny how there are different preferences on this. Some want a detailed schedule of everything that's coming. Because I enjoy the 'story' I'm quite happy to go with it and enjoy what arrives so long as I know there's some 'stuff' coming...
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2019 15:37:50 GMT
Can we kiss and make up now? You're ruining anthem state of hype for the rest of us Also, can we talk about the title 'echoes of reality'? This indicates to me that there is some sort of reality dysfunction (heart of rage?) which we restore at the end of the main game. And the echoes are new signings we get after having restored it, but maybe created by something / someone different? I.e. a new antagonist? Would this also bring... new enemies? I have to wonder if we silence the Heart Of Rage, given that it's one of the Strongholds we will visit repeatedly. One doesn't exclude the other - it's possible that Stronghold becomes available only after completing the initial main campaign. I'm not sure how much we should bet that whatever story they will add would be related to Heart of Rage. Again - it could, but it doesn't have to. What I'm curious is whether the first season will be self-contained or will its story be multi-seasonal. Also - I assume that new enemies will appear gradually with increasing Cataclysm (it's possible that Echoes are related to the impending humongous storm we'd get at the end of 1st season). I suspect we may even see significant changes to the map after it passes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 15:37:52 GMT
Funny how there are different preferences on this. Some want a detailed schedule of everything that's coming. Because I enjoy the 'story' I'm quite happy to go with it and enjoy what arrives so long as I know there's some 'stuff' coming... I think the reason people want a detailed schedule is to show a "promise" of content. Saying they have content coming can mean anything (even cosmetics). It also shows that they truly have a plan for the future and aren't just winging it. They made it sound like Destiny 1 was going to be this long term live service game that was replaced with another (Destiny 2) 3 years later. That isn't right...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 7, 2019 15:40:39 GMT
Funny how there are different preferences on this. Some want a detailed schedule of everything that's coming. What I don't understand is, why? And if one is already skeptical and suspicious enough to want reassurance, what makes one think one can trust what they say to reassure? It makes no sense to me. If the argument is, "I don't want to buy the game until I'm sure," then wait. Don't buy it at launch. Why is that hard? If it's I'm suspicious and distrustful AND I don't want to miss out on anything that happens at launch AND I want EVERYTHING to be as I prefer or there will be hell to pay ... I'd recommend seeking professional counseling.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 7, 2019 15:42:20 GMT
It also shows that they truly have a plan for the future and aren't just winging it. C'mon now. Is that really a serious concern? Does anyone really believe a company as big as EA is going to wing anything with this much money at stake? It's not credible. And again, why should what they say be any kind of reassurance? Because it's on the record? They've already gone back on several things that were on the record -- though, to be sure, with reasonable justification.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 15:45:00 GMT
Funny how there are different preferences on this. Some want a detailed schedule of everything that's coming. What I don't understand is, why? And if one is already skeptical and suspicious enough to want reassurance, what makes one think one can trust what they say to reassure? It makes no sense to me. If the argument is, "I don't want to buy the game until I'm sure," then wait. Don't buy it at launch. Why is that hard?If it's I'm suspicious and distrustful AND I don't want to miss out on anything that happens at launch AND I want EVERYTHING to be as I prefer or there will be hell to pay ... I'd recommend seeking professional counseling. That's literally what people do though. Why is that so hard to understand? People wanting reassurance that their time is valued as a player is nothing more than human nature. MMO players have been doing this for decades. Why waste your time on a MMO that has no future? I can see this from both sides of the isle. I find it hard to believe that others can't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 15:46:46 GMT
It also shows that they truly have a plan for the future and aren't just winging it. C'mon now. Is that really a serious concern? Does anyone really believe a company as big as EA is going to wing anything with this much money at stake? It's not credible. And again, why should what they say be any kind of reassurance? Because it's on the record? They've already gone back on several things that were on the record -- though, to be sure, with reasonable justification. That depends on the person obviously... The answer to the rest is in my previous post.
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Post by shinobiwan on Feb 7, 2019 15:50:06 GMT
It also shows that they truly have a plan for the future and aren't just winging it. C'mon now. Is that really a serious concern? Does anyone really believe a company as big as EA is going to wing anything with this much money at stake? It's not credible. And again, why should what they say be any kind of reassurance? Because it's on the record? They've already gone back on several things that were on the record -- though, to be sure, with reasonable justification. After mass effect andromeda it is a fair concern.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 7, 2019 15:56:23 GMT
What I don't understand is, why? And if one is already skeptical and suspicious enough to want reassurance, what makes one think one can trust what they say to reassure? It makes no sense to me. If the argument is, "I don't want to buy the game until I'm sure," then wait. Don't buy it at launch. Why is that hard?If it's I'm suspicious and distrustful AND I don't want to miss out on anything that happens at launch AND I want EVERYTHING to be as I prefer or there will be hell to pay ... I'd recommend seeking professional counseling. That's literally what people do though. Why is that so hard to understand? People wanting reassurance that their time is valued as a player is nothing more than human nature. I'm going to assume you are referring to the wait to buy case, when you say that's what people literraly do. What I see people literally doing for Anthem on Reddit is insist, insist, insist on more and more disclosure, because they want to pre-order or Origin Premiere because they want to jump on the early access Feb 15 release. Or they have already pre-ordered!! I'll grant you that there probably are people who have done what would make more sense to me, which is decide not to buy until after launch and NOT insist on more reassurance. They just decide and stfu about it, because what more is there to say? Those I wouldn't know about because they aren't saying anything. " If you are referring to the schizoid "I want my cake and eat it too" case; that's not human nature. Or, at least, if that is what passes for human nature these days, we have much more serious problems than the lack of detail in Anthem's roadmap.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 16:01:52 GMT
That's literally what people do though. Why is that so hard to understand? People wanting reassurance that their time is valued as a player is nothing more than human nature. I'm going to assume you are referring to the wait to buy case, when you say that's what people literraly do. What I see people literally doing for Anthem on Reddit is insist, insist, insist on more and more disclosure, because they want to pre-order or Origin Premiere because they want to jump on the early access Feb 15 release. Or they have already pre-ordered!! I'll grant you that there probably are people who have done what would make more sense to me, which is decide not to buy until after launch and NOT insist on more reassurance. They just decide and stfu about it, because what more is there to say? Those I wouldn't know about because they aren't saying anything. " If you are referring to the schizoid "I want my cake and eat it too" case; that's not human nature. Or, at least, if that is what passes for human nature these days, we have much more serious problems than the lack of detail in Anthem's roadmap. It's the first part for sure. Honestly...you can go on any MMO/Live service game forum and their main concern overall will be future content and some type of reassurance that it'll come (regardless if the get it or not). It won't stop them from asking and is that really that bad? Is asking for some type of reassurance now considered the ultimate sin in gaming?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 7, 2019 16:04:26 GMT
C'mon now. Is that really a serious concern? Does anyone really believe a company as big as EA is going to wing anything with this much money at stake? It's not credible. And again, why should what they say be any kind of reassurance? Because it's on the record? They've already gone back on several things that were on the record -- though, to be sure, with reasonable justification. After mass effect andromeda it is a fair concern. If anything, MEA proves my point. Your hypothesis: MEA is evidence that EA was "winging it". Observation: MEA caused an uproar. Literal heads rolled and a whole studio division was disbanded. Accountability was upheld. Consequence 1: EA would be more careful, do more planning, and apply much more executive oversight/review and market testing before releasing the next big new game from Bioware. Consequence 2: EA would once again take their eye off the ball, make mistakes, shrug off market testing, and basically wing it and hope for the best for the next game from Bioware. Which of those two consequences is more logical? And if you say Consequence 2, what makes you think that any statements of reassurance would be worth a damn?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2019 16:06:17 GMT
Funny how there are different preferences on this. Some want a detailed schedule of everything that's coming. What I don't understand is, why? And if one is already skeptical and suspicious enough to want reassurance, what makes one think one can trust what they say to reassure? It makes no sense to me. If the argument is, "I don't want to buy the game until I'm sure," then wait. Don't buy it at launch. Why is that hard? I posit that it's because a considerable portion of people are not used to the idea that they don't have to have the game NOW and that the game has to have all/nearly all the content NOW. Granted, it's not something that game companies and publishers got us used to - AFAIK, up until relatively recently, most of the revenue on a single game was made in first 6 months after its release. But times are changing and games with a long 'tail' are becoming more profitable - if not THE way to make them in this day and age. It's not even as sudden of a change as it sometimes seems: post-launch support periods for games have been gradually extended in time; patches and improvements were getting meatier the more people played online and/or downloaded their games via the Internet. DLCs are entirely normal - even expected! - now, despite the fact that they were as contentious as live services (which they are parts of now) not that long ago... so really, most of what we're seeing now is a pretty natural evolution of the medium and - as it usually is with these things - there will be a portion of people that will catch up with it and some that will have some problems moving on from what they knew from a few years back... Just to make things clear - I'm not claiming that people shouldn't have reservations when they are warranted. From where I stand, all types of monetization or production, new or old, have their pros and cons or ways they can be beneficial or exploitative. There were problems before and there will be problems now. The debate, however - just like games - is changing.
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