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Post by biggydx on Feb 11, 2019 3:08:56 GMT
Sorry if some of the types I listed don't fall well into one particular trope (or aren't actually tropes at all). I did the best I could to describe each major category of villain. If you need an example, Solas would be an example of an Anti-Villain. Kefka (from FFVI) would be an example of a Mastermind villain. The Reapers would be an example of an Ancient Evil villain. General Zod (Man of Steel) would be an example of a Mirror Villain.
Just interested in what people prefer. For the record, I feel like most of these types of villains can be done well if they're background or writing is done well.
One thing I would like to note (but was unable to - due to character limits), is that Tragic Hero's are often put into their situations due to unforeseen or unfortunate events that they couldn't control. They know they're regarded as evil, but they don't take any pleasure in the things that they do.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 11, 2019 3:38:06 GMT
I guess I'm down for all of these except for the "Ancient Evil". I prefer all characters to have relatable, human motivations, and I'm over "end of the world" narratives just generally. I prefer small-scope, personal stories. Plus I'm just plain sick of BioWare antagonists going "YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY COMPREHEND MY GRAND DESIGNS WITH YOUR PUNY MORTAL BRAIN!!!", only for it to be revealed that their motivations are extremely simple and understandable and not remotely new or surprising.
Also, I prefer the term "antagonist" to villain, because an antagonist is just someone who opposes our protagonist, whereas "villain" implies an inherent immorality to their actions. It seems especially inappropriate for Dragon Age, a series where we regularly have the option to recruit morally questionable characters, and may even perform morally questionable deeds ourselves. Lol.
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Post by Sundance31us on Feb 11, 2019 3:48:20 GMT
Lawful Evil
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 11, 2019 4:05:56 GMT
I think for me it is more about the execution of the antagonist than its type.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2019 4:18:38 GMT
THe problem with this list is a lot of these aren't mutually exclusive. In fact if Dragon Age with Solas/ Corypheus has proven anything is that you can have a mirror, tragic, mastermind, ancient evil.
That said I voted for...and am hoping for...a mirror. I do enjoy a character that can be opposed to the protagonist in some way and have come to really appreciate this storytelling idea on some shows that I have been watching, and even Dragon Age.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 11, 2019 4:26:04 GMT
I think for me it is more about the execution of the antagonist than its type. Yeah I don't really care about the kind of villain is tbh just how good the story is as a whole. It can be a bit of a tragic one like say Saren in the way he allowed himself to get indoctrinated and manipulated by Sovereign. Or someone who's just trying to cling onto power like Meredith at the end of DA2. Or someone who's trying to bully others into submission like the Archon and Kett in MEA
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 11, 2019 4:32:13 GMT
Would be cool to see a less reflective villain take center stage. In Dragon Age the main villain is traditionally quite conflicted, but often villains... aren’t like that. The evil comes less from “I have a cause I believe in too much” and more from “I am indifferent to the things you care about, so bad stuff will just kind of happen”.
Rivaled Solas sort of falls into that bucket, but a better example would be most of the demon temptations throughout the series. They’re not necessarily looking to harm mortals, but they’re not that interested in preventing harm either, so it happens anyway.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 11, 2019 4:40:16 GMT
I would say tragic villain is my favorite 'cause that's someone you can sympathize with and even feel for, sometimes even more so than the hero.
If you asked what my least favorite type of villain is I'd say Purely Malevolent. Mostly because that archetype is often used to cover up poor writing. Like the character who opposes the main character - it's all too easy to give them all kinds of bad qualities to justify "the hero" killing them. This is especially bad if the character only started acting this way after the writer decided they must die. Example: Juan Borgia from the Borgias. What a disservice they did for that character in S2.
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Post by Frost on Feb 11, 2019 5:10:52 GMT
Tragic and mirror are my favorites, but any of them could work if the writing is good.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Feb 11, 2019 6:51:47 GMT
Went for Mastermind, just something about it I prefer, the Big Bad, is most likely just out for power, or to watch the world burn, but they actually use their brain to reach the end goal.
Just my opinion.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 11, 2019 8:10:37 GMT
My answer to this question is always the same: it depends entirely on the needs of the narrative, and multiple types of villains can exist within the same story. I do like the theatrics of blatantly evil villains, however. Or someone who's just trying to cling onto power like Meredith at the end of DA2. Point of order: Meredith wasn’t interested in power, she was convinced of the righteousness of her cause to the point of fanaticism and believed that her actions were for the good of the city. What drove her to seek the lyrium idol was the belief that she could no longer trust those under her command.
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Post by Reznore on Feb 11, 2019 11:21:48 GMT
Sister Petrice. It wasn't about her motivation, or goals. Just the fact that you're so powerless to do anything for a while. And You know she's bad news, and she almost get you killed but you're worthless and she has some political status for being part of the Chantry. It was so annoying.
Anyway I'd rather not have a sob story villain, I'm tired of "bad guys don't see themselves as the bad guys". That's so naive. Some people are fine with being assholes, and sometimes being an asshole works just fine. So let's be edgy and have a villain who's a villain because it does pay off.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 11, 2019 11:47:05 GMT
it's funny that the options with the least votes are megalomaniac and ancient evil, which is what Corypheus is.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 11, 2019 12:49:33 GMT
I personally prefer villains that I can relate to such as Loghain, Meredith, the Arishok, just to name a few I want villains to make me want to go 'they have a good point, but I don't agree with them so I need to defeat them' so...Anti-villain I guess? but sometimes villains that are evil for the sake of being evil can also be entertaining, but it's more interesting if they have a bit of depth to the reason why
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 11, 2019 13:29:05 GMT
I'm tired of "bad guys don't see themselves as the bad guys". That's so naive. Is it? I don't know anyone who genuinely considers themselves to be an evil person. If they do think that of themselves, they probably have severe depression and low self-esteem, not the un-earned sense of confidence and entitlement that normally comes with being an unrepentant asshole. Bigots don't think of themselves as bigots, they see themselves as guardians of morality. The capitalist overlords who exploit the working class don't see themselves as evil, they think they deserve their wealth. Schoolyard bullies don't see themselves as evil, mass shooters don't see themselves as evil (they even sometimes write lengthy manifestos about why the people they plan to kill have it coming). I think it's far more naive to believe that anyone would ever openly declare themselves to be "evil", or to support "evil". The fact is that evil is happening all around us, all the time. It's baked into our society. The notion that we could excise it simply by finding and defeating an obvious villain isn't "edgy", it's the comforting fantasy of a Saturday morning cartoon. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all. Corypheus hews pretty close to that trope already.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 11, 2019 13:33:57 GMT
It seems like the DA series is full of anti villian types. Loghain, Meredith, Solas, etc... with a side of ancient evil (darkspawn, red lyrium). That's kind of been their formula so far.
My favorite type of villian is the Illusive Man type, and I saw him as a sort of a mix of master mind and anti villian...with a dash of rival. Ancient evil vilians (reapers, etc) are cool, but I feel like they almost always come with a secondary villian of some kind anyway, as they can be kind of abstract and hard to relate to on their own.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 11, 2019 13:36:00 GMT
My answer to this question is always the same: it depends entirely on the needs of the narrative, and multiple types of villains can exist within the same story. I do like the theatrics of blatantly evil villains, however. Or someone who's just trying to cling onto power like Meredith at the end of DA2. Point of order: Meredith wasn’t interested in power, she was convinced of the righteousness of her cause to the point of fanaticism and believed that her actions were for the good of the city. What drove her to seek the lyrium idol was the belief that she could no longer trust those under her command. Well in a sense she was I think as she was stopping the city from trying to elect a new viscount after Dumar's death after the Qunari killed him and this was before the trouble with the mages. Varric says this in the story and why would she do this if she wasn't interested in power. She wanted to be the one in control that and her actions in the end kind of indicated that. Admittedly she was infected by the Red Lyrium in Act 3 and we don't know how much of an effect that had on her but before then it's hard to really tell. As templars are supposed to stay out of political affairs as they serve the chantry and keep an eye on he mage not interfere with the general populace unless the Divine/Chantry specifically orders it and I don't think they did. She sent Leliana to investigate but I think that's more to do with the mage/templar problem than the city itself. The general city's security is supposed to be handled by the local guards which technically is Aveline's department at this time not Meredith's. At least that's how I see it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 11, 2019 13:37:42 GMT
I personally prefer villains that I can relate to such as Loghain, Meredith, the Arishok, just to name a few I want villains to make me want to go 'they have a good point, but I don't agree with them so I need to defeat them' so...Anti-villain I guess? but sometimes villains that are evil for the sake of being evil can also be entertaining, but it's more interesting if they have a bit of depth to the reason why This position is weird to me, because for me, a key feature of the characters I consider to be "villains" is that I can't relate to them. If I could, I wouldn't see them as villains in the first place. I do not remotely sympathise with or even understand the positions and actions of Loghain, Meredith, or the Arishok. I understand that they think their actions are justified, but I am not interested in hearing that reasoning, nor do I feel at all conflicted about killing those characters in order to stop them. Conversely, a lot of people might consider Anders a villain, but since I view his actions as entirely justified, it is impossible for me to see him that way. Which is why I don't like the term "villain" for this discussion in the first place. It literally just means "person I don't like". The "true" villain of a story can change depending on who is consuming it.
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Post by theascendent on Feb 11, 2019 13:38:52 GMT
The greatest villains are those who could have been great heroes in my opinion. In Origins I remember Loghain more than Urthemiel, Meredith more than the Arishok and Solas far more than Corypheus. Making them three dimensional, well meaning but ultimately antagonistic towards us is what makes them effective foils and rivals. Everyone is the hero of their own story.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 11, 2019 14:13:41 GMT
I personally prefer villains that I can relate to such as Loghain, Meredith, the Arishok, just to name a few I want villains to make me want to go 'they have a good point, but I don't agree with them so I need to defeat them' so...Anti-villain I guess? but sometimes villains that are evil for the sake of being evil can also be entertaining, but it's more interesting if they have a bit of depth to the reason why This position is weird to me, because for me, a key feature of the characters I consider to be "villains" is that I can't relate to them. If I could, I wouldn't see them as villains in the first place. I do not remotely sympathise with or even understand the positions and actions of Loghain, Meredith, or the Arishok. I understand that they think their actions are justified, but I am not interested in hearing that reasoning, nor do I feel at all conflicted about killing those characters in order to stop them. Conversely, a lot of people might consider Anders a villain, but since I view his actions as entirely justified, it is impossible for me to see him that way. Which is why I don't like the term "villain" for this discussion in the first place. It literally just means "person I don't like". The "true" villain of a story can change depending on who is consuming it. Hm, I see your point
Sometimes when I listen to Loghain or Meredith I'm like 'maybe they're right', then the game proves me wrong and I'm like 'well screw them!' It's one of the main reasons I just can't justify siding with Meredith, or the Templars in general I mean, I know they are needed, but killing innocent people or taking away their entire being is just wrong (plus during Origins there are innocent kids in the Circle too, I am not going to kill children!)
As for Anders, I don't agree with his methods (blowing up a building with (mostly) innocent people seems rather extreme to me), but I can see his point as well for me this is one of the hardest choices in DA2, do I let him life...or do I kill him? (Nowadays I let him life but don't let Hawke agree with his actions)
to your last point, this is very visible in Origins, depending on the origin you choose 'villains' change as well for example, if you're a human noble Arl Howe is your villain, for a city elf it's Vaughn, for a casteless dwarf it's Beraht/Jarvia etc. it's only after your origin where the focus of this villain changes to Loghain/The Archdemon every major quest-line also has it's own antagonist depending on how you look at it (example being Zathrian and the Werewolves)
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 11, 2019 14:21:32 GMT
I'm fine with all of them except the most popular option, anti-villain. Mostly because I have a hard time digesting a lot of '' BUT IN THEIR HEART, THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE, THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING PROBABLY, THEY NEED TO BE REDEMEED!!! '' discussion because often it completely ignores the fact that these villains are still scum even if their goals can be seen as reasonable.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 11, 2019 14:23:58 GMT
This position is weird to me, because for me, a key feature of the characters I consider to be "villains" is that I can't relate to them. If I could, I wouldn't see them as villains in the first place. I do not remotely sympathise with or even understand the positions and actions of Loghain, Meredith, or the Arishok. I understand that they think their actions are justified, but I am not interested in hearing that reasoning, nor do I feel at all conflicted about killing those characters in order to stop them. Conversely, a lot of people might consider Anders a villain, but since I view his actions as entirely justified, it is impossible for me to see him that way. Which is why I don't like the term "villain" for this discussion in the first place. It literally just means "person I don't like". The "true" villain of a story can change depending on who is consuming it. Hm, I see your point
Sometimes when I listen to Loghain or Meredith I'm like 'maybe they're right', then the game proves me wrong and I'm like 'well screw them!' It's one of the main reasons I just can't justify siding with Meredith, or the Templars in general I mean, I know they are needed, but killing innocent people or taking away their entire being is just wrong (plus during Origins there are innocent kids in the Circle too, I am not going to kill children!)
As for Anders, I don't agree with his methods (blowing up a building with (mostly) innocent people seems rather extreme to me), but I can see his point as well for me this is one of the hardest choices in DA2, do I let him life...or do I kill him? (Nowadays I let him life but don't let Hawke agree with his actions)
to your last point, this is very visible in Origins, depending on the origin you choose 'villains' change as well for example, if you're a human noble Arl Howe is your villain, for a city elf it's Vaughn, for a casteless dwarf it's Beraht/Jarvia etc. it's only after your origin where the focus of this villain changes to Loghain/The Archdemon every major quest-line also has it's own antagonist depending on how you look at it (example being Zathrian and the Werewolves) I never saw one little point of Meredith, because her standpoint was inherently bad: we can't ignore her methods, because she was her methods: a simple criminal, always, according to the Chantry law too. As (king) Alistair says: the greatest danger is now exiting the door (when Meredith leaves). Her standpoint was never reasonable, just paranoid. She didn't stop the danger, but caused that. She's not not even a Greagoir... I don't like him either, but I can see, why people think, he's a "good Templar"... while Zevran think the Annulment is the madness itself, and I agree... True, I never saw the benefit of the prison-Circles, but this is the other topic. Anders isn't a villain – to support him is satisfying, especially in romance (I don't say, try it, I know, why people don't like it, but worth it).
But i agree, that Meredith is a good villain, not like the Archdemon for example. And I think, Corypheus was also weak, not interesting, while he had potential. Meredith was good, because I was not able to sympathize her for a moment, but she has arguments. Bad ones, but still. An enemy, a person, not just a slaughterable beast. Also Loghain – while he's different, I like to give him a chance to redeem himself, but to execute him also not bad choice, because perhaps, his "tactical retreat" was not betrayal (at least in his eyes), but he still tried to sell his people – who were under his protection, he was the regent of Ferelden, his duty was to protect them, instead to sell them.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 11, 2019 14:27:23 GMT
I'm tired of "bad guys don't see themselves as the bad guys". That's so naive. Is it? I don't know anyone who genuinely considers themselves to be an evil person. If they do think that of themselves, they probably have severe depression and low self-esteem, not the un-earned sense of confidence and entitlement that normally comes with being an unrepentant asshole. Bigots don't think of themselves as bigots, they see themselves as guardians of morality. The capitalist overlords who exploit the working class don't see themselves as evil, they think they deserve their wealth. Schoolyard bullies don't see themselves as evil, mass shooters don't see themselves as evil (they even sometimes write lengthy manifestos about why the people they plan to kill have it coming). I think it's far more naive to believe that anyone would ever openly declare themselves to be "evil", or to support "evil". The fact is that evil is happening all around us, all the time. It's baked into our society. The notion that we could excise it simply by finding and defeating an obvious villain isn't "edgy", it's the comforting fantasy of a Saturday morning cartoon. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all. Corypheus hews pretty close to that trope already. I can’t speak for Reznore, but when I’m looking for an unrepentant villain, I’m not imagining someone who thinks they’re evil. I’m imagining someone who simply doesn’t care. They’re not trying to be evil, they’re not misguidedly trying to be good. They don’t consider what they’re doing to have any moral weight, negative or positive.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 11, 2019 15:15:03 GMT
I never saw one little point of Meredith, because her standpoint was inherently bad: we can't ignore her methods, because she was her methods: a simple criminal, always, according to the Chantry law too. As (king) Alistair says: the greatest danger is now exiting the door (when Meredith leaves). Her standpoint was never reasonable, just paranoid. She didn't stop the danger, but caused that. She's not not even a Greagoir... (I don't like him either, but I can see, why people think, he's a "good Templar"... while Zevran think the Annulment is the madness itself, and I agree...)
But i agree, that Meredith is a good villain, not like the Archdemon for example. And I think, Corypheus was also weak, not interesting, while he had potential. Meredith was good, because I was not able to sympathize her for a moment, but she has arguments. Bad ones, but still. An enemy, a person, not just a slaughterable beast. Also Loghain – while he's different, I like to give him a chance to redeem himself, but to execute him also not bad choice.
I like it if there are villains that you can relate to, even if you don't agree with them
What I like about Meredith (and Loghain to some extend as well) is that she shows precisely what fear and paranoia can do to a person a good example of this is a dialogue from Niall during the Magi Origin in DA:O
(he's talking about the common people in this, but Templars are part of them as well I assume)
I personally think it's sad there's only so many Templars that can be viewed as good ones, and the ones that are generally tend to end up dead (Otto, Thrask, Emeric, Barris)
Corypheus is an interesting case, I personally found him more interesting in Legacy then in Inquisition in Legacy he's a confused entity who still believes he's in the high days of his people's empire, he recognizes he was lied to by something or someone, but doesn't understand where he is or what has happened and I agree that he had potential of being a better enemy if the focus wasn't just laid on him wanting to rebuild his old world and become a god
I also think it will be interesting to see what type of enemies and villains we can receive in a land such as Tevinter, especially because up till now it has been portrayed as a country where well...pretty much everyone is bad with just a handful of 'good' people
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 11, 2019 15:22:13 GMT
Honestly I'm not choosy so long as the villain has a clear, logical motivation for what they're doing, and they're entertaining while they do it. Though not the main antagonist of the story, the Arishok was a lot of fun to deal with, especially if you managed to get his respect. His culture is essentially alien and relating to him was never really going to be in the cards, but I understood what he wanted and what he stood for, and he had great presence.
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