JayKay
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: JayKay91939
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Post by JayKay on Dec 11, 2016 3:19:42 GMT
I haven't done a romance with her (like Tali, I can't shake the "kid sister" feeling with her), but I do think she's an amazing character, even if it's hard to figure out if I should friendship or rival her sometimes. Some fan-art/comics: SourceSince I also posted this one on the Isabela thread, I thought this should go here too! Source
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Post by Sifr on Dec 11, 2016 5:02:57 GMT
Merrill takes advice from one demon; does everything in her power to minimize her interactions with said demon; when she's at her wits' end, and only then - six years after she last took advice from the demon - she decides to face the demon, and talks Hawke into being there to cut her down if she becomes possessed. Merrill is perfectly aware and has been as long as Hawke has known hers that there's no such thing as a good spirit. She's not naive, she's remarkably cautious. There is absolutely no "consorting" that I can see, I'd be very curious to hear your sources. Worth mentioning that the Spirit she calls upon ends up being a Pride Demon, which we now know is a corrupted form of Wisdom. If Solas is correct and one's own preconceptions and expectations are capable of shaping the Spirit, then Marethari and Hawke's firm belief that it was a Demon may have been what caused it to manifest into that shape, whereas Merrill repeatedly refers to it as "a Spirit" instead. In Mary Kirby's companion short story for Merrill that serves a prequel to DA2, Audacity calls to Marethari and Merrill and begs them to free it, in exchange for knowledge (Wisdom). "Wait! I have been trapped here for time beyond counting. I bore witness to the fall of your kingdom. Help me, Keeper of the Dalish and I will give you knowledge of all that I have seen... All of this could be yours."We saw in DAI that binding a Spirit and denying it from carrying out it's original purpose can cause it to become corrupted, so what's to say that this isn't what happened to Audacity? It may not have always had that name and been a demon when it was bound to the statue, but taken that title after being bound and corrupted, due to being left forgotten and abandoned, with no-one to dispense Wisdom to? That does not mean Audacity is not incredibly dangerous and they should let their guard down, but perhaps if Marethari had not interfered and allowed herself to become possessed, Merrill's plan to break the binding in exchange for the knowledge she sought, would have fulfilled it's original purpose and turned it back into Wisdom? On the other hand, most of the Pride Demons we encounter tend to offer knowledge and advice, often in order to deceive or trick, which would match what Solas says about demons perverting their original purpose into something negative. We even saw an example of this way back in the Mage Origin, where Mouse gives the Mage Warden a free bit of advice ("Keep your wits about you, mage. True tests never end.") after they successfully resist it trying to possess them.
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JayKay
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: JayKay91939
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Post by JayKay on Dec 11, 2016 6:13:10 GMT
I would say that Marethari corrupted it more so than Hawke did, but yeah, after what Solas said (and while he's not the most trustful guy in the world, I think his perspective on spirits/demons are pretty reliable), that does seem to be the more likely outcome and Merrill was actually far more closer to the truth than many of us gave her credit for when DA2 came out. Not that I can blame Hawke and crew wanting to shake her and go "are you out of your fucking mind?!" I mean, sure, blood magic is a tool no more dangerous and evil than any other, but it also seems to be the one more likely to bite you in the ass in the end. Speaking of, I don't know about you, but I can't think of a better PSA for not doing blood magic. Source
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2016 13:29:36 GMT
I would say that Marethari corrupted it more so than Hawke did, but yeah, after what Solas said (and while he's not the most trustful guy in the world, I think his perspective on spirits/demons are pretty reliable), that does seem to be the more likely outcome and Merrill was actually far more closer to the truth than many of us gave her credit for when DA2 came out. Not that I can blame Hawke and crew wanting to shake her and go "are you out of your fucking mind?!" I mean, sure, blood magic is a tool no more dangerous and evil than any other, but it also seems to be the one more likely to bite you in the ass in the end. Speaking of, I don't know about you, but I can't think of a better PSA for not doing blood magic. SourceThis picture is fun I think, the blood magic not inherently evil, but more dangerous as other specialisations. I also like to use it. Just I hate, that the companions –especially Anders and Fenris– not say a word against this... Interesting, that in the Fade Merrill give +5 firendship, if Hawke deal with Torpor, Fenris give also (this seems bullshit), if Hawke deal with it, and "kill" Justice, and give + 15 rivalry, if Hawke continued this action, and seal this business, but Merrill don't do anything. (True, Torpor still killable at finish, but if Hawke don't kill this, Merrill still don't do anything... if I remember correctly) And interesting, that she, who always say, that she know, what she did, and will be careful, so easily be victim of pride demon... I think, it's a little bit scary, on the other hand, this experience probably helps Merrill to be a little more careful in the future.
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JayKay
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: JayKay91939
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Post by JayKay on Dec 11, 2016 16:31:59 GMT
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of understandable that there isn't that option in DA2 -- when it seems like you can't let your kids out at night because there's always a slobbering blood mage let loose on the streets, it's harder to have a proper discussion on its usage. Also, while it is unfair for poor Merrill, I do enjoy the fact that there's at least one thing that Fenris and Anders can agree on. I'm not quite sure what you're saying with the Fade stuff, though. It has been a while since I played DA2, I don't quite remember the minutia of the mission.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2016 16:53:58 GMT
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of understandable that there isn't that option in DA2 -- when it seems like you can't let your kids out at night because there's always a slobbering blood mage let loose on the streets, it's harder to have a proper discussion on its usage. Also, while it is unfair for poor Merrill, I do enjoy the fact that there's at least one thing that Fenris and Anders can agree on. I'm not quite sure what you're saying with the Fade stuff, though. It has been a while since I played DA2, I don't quite remember the minutia of the mission. Oh, yes, Fenris and Anders quite agree in Merrill-issues, poor Merrill! (But both are love blood mage Hawke – stupid game mechanism...) About the Fade (Feynriel quest). As Hawke's group enter in the Fade, the Sloth demon (Torpor) offer him/her help, exchange for he ask, let its to possess Feynriel, and rule in the Fade by Feynriel's power. If Hawke inquire about its offer, and refuses Justice's warning, Justice turn against him/her, and force the fight. Fenris give for it +5 friendship, and Merril as well. If after Justice's disappear Hawke accept this offer, Fenris give 15 rivalry, but Merrill does not object, despite I don't think, that Merrill want that Torpor possess Feynriel.... Perhaps Merrill ttrust in Hawke better than Fenris, because Hawke can kill Torpor at the end, and let Feynriel go without posses. And Merrill accept the pride demon's offer (just as the others, except Justice, ofc, and Isabela, because she accepts the desire demon's offer).
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 11, 2016 17:30:25 GMT
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of understandable that there isn't that option in DA2 -- when it seems like you can't let your kids out at night because there's always a slobbering blood mage let loose on the streets, it's harder to have a proper discussion on its usage. Also, while it is unfair for poor Merrill, I do enjoy the fact that there's at least one thing that Fenris and Anders can agree on. I'm not quite sure what you're saying with the Fade stuff, though. It has been a while since I played DA2, I don't quite remember the minutia of the mission. Oh, yes, Fenris and Anders quite agree in Merrill-issues, poor Merrill! (But both are love blood mage Hawke – stupid game mechanism...) About the Fade (Feynriel quest). As Hawke's group enter in the Fade, the Sloth demon (Torpor) offer him/her help, exchange for he ask, let its to possess Feynriel, and rule in the Fade by Feynriel's power. If Hawke inquire about its offer, and refuses Justice's warning, Justice turn against him/her, and force the fight. Fenris give for it +5 friendship, and Merril as well. If after Justice's disappear Hawke accept this offer, Fenris give 15 rivalry, but Merrill does not object, despite I don't think, that Merrill want that Torpor possess Feynriel.... Perhaps Merrill ttrust in Hawke better than Fenris, because Hawke can kill Torpor at the end, and let Feynriel go without posses. And Merrill accept the pride demon's offer (just as the others, except Justice, ofc, and Isabela, because she accepts the desire demon's offer). Merrill tells Hawke that he can gather intel from spirits without making deals with them, which is exactly what Hawke can do with the Profane Abomination and Torpor - get information about the situation without making a bargain with either spirit. Despite how horribly Merrill is treated by Anders and Fenris, she also never sinks to their level; Anders has no problem with Fenris being enslaved because he hates him, while Merrill vocally opposes it, while Fenris has no problem with Anders being executed because he hates him while Merrill will suggest that Anders should be given the opportunity to atone for what he's done. Despite how horrible both men treat her, she shows more maturity than either one does in similar situations.
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JayKay
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Post by JayKay on Dec 11, 2016 18:06:12 GMT
I don't even think Anders would actually approve of selling Fenris back -- I think that was just added in because they felt like SOMEONE had to like that decision.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2016 18:23:05 GMT
Oh, yes, Fenris and Anders quite agree in Merrill-issues, poor Merrill! (But both are love blood mage Hawke – stupid game mechanism...) About the Fade (Feynriel quest). As Hawke's group enter in the Fade, the Sloth demon (Torpor) offer him/her help, exchange for he ask, let its to possess Feynriel, and rule in the Fade by Feynriel's power. If Hawke inquire about its offer, and refuses Justice's warning, Justice turn against him/her, and force the fight. Fenris give for it +5 friendship, and Merril as well. If after Justice's disappear Hawke accept this offer, Fenris give 15 rivalry, but Merrill does not object, despite I don't think, that Merrill want that Torpor possess Feynriel.... Perhaps Merrill ttrust in Hawke better than Fenris, because Hawke can kill Torpor at the end, and let Feynriel go without posses. And Merrill accept the pride demon's offer (just as the others, except Justice, ofc, and Isabela, because she accepts the desire demon's offer). Merrill tells Hawke that he can gather intel from spirits without making deals with them, which is exactly what Hawke can do with the Profane Abomination and Torpor - get information about the situation without making a bargain with either spirit. Despite how horribly Merrill is treated by Anders and Fenris, she also never sinks to their level; Anders has no problem with Fenris being enslaved because he hates him, while Merrill vocally opposes it, while Fenris has no problem with Anders being executed because he hates him while Merrill will suggest that Anders should be given the opportunity to atone for what he's done. Despite how horrible both men treat her, she shows more maturity than either one does in similar situations. Yes, Merrill patient with them, and well-meaning toward them, just rarely show some annoyance To some extent it is understandable that Merrill is kinder, Merrill was honored in her clan, and free, however, Anders and Fenris both have pretty terrible past. I don't think, that the idea, that Anders glad because Hawke returned a slave to his former master, just because he dislike Fenris is a nonsense, just as that Fenris glad if Hawke deal with demon, just because he dislike Anders. I think, this two weird thing exist just for sake of more drama. (Ofc we talked about in Anders thread, and Fenris thread as well.)
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 5:54:39 GMT
It has come to my knowledge, from World of Thedas 2, that Marethari made a deal of some sort with Flemyth. When her husband died, she went into the Konkari Wilds for 3 days. She came out, "looking grim" and the Avaar that killed her husband and other clansmen "fell prey to trees come to life."
I wonder if taking the demon into herself was somehow tied to the deal she made to Mythal in exchange for that vengeance.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 17, 2016 6:45:26 GMT
It has come to my knowledge, from World of Thedas 2, that Marethari made a deal of some sort with Flemyth. When her husband died, she went into the Konkari Wilds for 3 days. She came out, "looking grim" and the Avaar that killed her husband and other clansmen "fell prey to trees come to life." I wonder if taking the demon into herself was somehow tied to the deal she made to Mythal in exchange for that vengeance. An interesting idea, but I don't think that was the deal. The deal was most likely revolving around her remaining at Sundermount until someone arrived with a certain object, and then use that to bring Flemeth forth from that object. We see that deal fulfilled in Merrill's recruitment mission. Now it could be indirectly tied, since waiting there allowed Audacity to slowly mold Marathari to eventually becoming their vessel, hence why even after her deal with Flemeth was done she remained for years and did the things she did in DA2. But I don't think Flemeth had any intention of Marathari becoming possessed by Audacity.
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JayKay
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: JayKay91939
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Post by JayKay on Dec 17, 2016 6:48:43 GMT
Yeah, wasn't the demon imprisoned in that area? Maybe while she was waiting for Hawke to deliver Flemeth Marathari got corrupted by it?
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 13:19:02 GMT
It has come to my knowledge, from World of Thedas 2, that Marethari made a deal of some sort with Flemyth. When her husband died, she went into the Konkari Wilds for 3 days. She came out, "looking grim" and the Avaar that killed her husband and other clansmen "fell prey to trees come to life." I wonder if taking the demon into herself was somehow tied to the deal she made to Mythal in exchange for that vengeance. An interesting idea, but I don't think that was the deal. The deal was most likely revolving around her remaining at Sundermount until someone arrived with a certain object, and then use that to bring Flemeth forth from that object. We see that deal fulfilled in Merrill's recruitment mission. Now it could be indirectly tied, since waiting there allowed Audacity to slowly mold Marathari to eventually becoming their vessel, hence why even after her deal with Flemeth was done she remained for years and did the things she did in DA2. But I don't think Flemeth had any intention of Marathari becoming possessed by Audacity. Oh yeah. I keep forgetting how weird it was for the clan to stay in one place for six years. Yeah, it was probably waiting for the necklace? Perhaps why Marethari innsisted on crossing the ocean when other clans didn't bother. "A time will come when your clan must escape a great cataclysm. When that time comes, you must travel to Sundermount and await me/an amulet there given by another." Is probably more likely the deal struck
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 19, 2016 5:28:51 GMT
Flemeth likely killed the Avvar for Marethari in exchange for a favour to be paid later, which turned out to be going to Sundermount and resurrecting Flemeth.
Of course, the Sabrae clan did go north to flee the Blight. But then Flemeth contacted Marethari through magic and told her to go to Sundermount. That's where Merrill made contact with Audacity, and not wanting to leave Merrill behind, Marethari kept the clan close to Sundermount.
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Post by lordofwar on Dec 19, 2016 16:59:29 GMT
Merrill tells Hawke that he can gather intel from spirits without making deals with them, which is exactly what Hawke can do with the Profane Abomination and Torpor - get information about the situation without making a bargain with either spirit. Making deals with demons isn't always bad. I always deal with the Profane demon because honestly, that's absolutely better than potentially being trapped in the Deep Roads forever, and he keeps his end of the bargain. Hawke and co. (spectacularly) betray him.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 19, 2016 17:15:17 GMT
Merrill tells Hawke that he can gather intel from spirits without making deals with them, which is exactly what Hawke can do with the Profane Abomination and Torpor - get information about the situation without making a bargain with either spirit. Making deals with demons isn't always bad. I always deal with the Profane demon because honestly, that's absolutely better than potentially being trapped in the Deep Roads forever, and he keeps his end of the bargain. Hawke and co. (spectacularly) betray him.Not worth it if you do not kill it eventually. In the Fade it's worth with Torpor, because Feynriel seems more self-confident, but we don't know before, and fighting with Justice is bad feeling (but the conversation with Anders is nice, if Hawke want to romance him, and killed the demon). I never dealt with this spot-light demon in the Deep Roads, and usually I don't deal with demons (My Hawkes think, it's mostly a trap, and don't risk it). As I said: except in the Fade, during Feynriel quest (I don't like to use meta-knowledge, but here worth it).
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 19, 2016 19:23:41 GMT
Thing is, the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads doesn't actually render you any assistance; he just doesn't try to kill you before moving on to the Rock Wraith. And he never mentioned the massive treasure hoard. If that's an example of a demon honouring a deal, then it's a shit example.
Deals with demons are generally a poor idea, as they tend to blow up in your face. Sure, the demon may technically fulfill its end of the bargain, but will likely try to screw you in some other way.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 19, 2016 19:44:21 GMT
Thing is, the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads doesn't actually render you any assistance; he just doesn't try to kill you before moving on to the Rock Wraith. And he never mentioned the massive treasure hoard. If that's an example of a demon honouring a deal, then it's a shit example. Deals with demons are generally a poor idea, as they tend to blow up in your face. Sure, the demon may technically fulfill its end of the bargain, but will likely try to screw you in some other way. Yes, thank you, it talks about that it is hungry. In the Fade Hawke can kill Torpor if want at the end: so temporary deal with it worthy.
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 19, 2016 20:45:53 GMT
Torpor is an example where a deal goes badly. While the demon gives you something in exchange for helping to possess Feynriel, it lies about leaving Kirkwall alone, as you can encounter several people driven insane by the "Dreamstalker" in Act 3.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 19, 2016 20:52:12 GMT
Torpor is an example where a deal goes badly. While the demon gives you something in exchange for helping to possess Feynriel, it lies about leaving Kirkwall alone, as you can encounter several people driven insane by the "Dreamstalker" in Act 3. Thanks. This is what I never did, very interesting (I don't like to play as evil, perhaps later, once...). Yes, you're right, not worth the deal, IF Hawke don't kill it at finish. And Torpor clearly lied to hawke: the demons likes to leave Fade and want to go among people, as I remember. So: don't have any sense to believe what Torpor say.
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Post by phoray on Dec 20, 2016 4:16:51 GMT
"Dealing" with demons doesn't make a pact. For one, both the demon dealing occuring in DA2, you can double cross them.
There is also an assasin mage in Last Flight who makes a deal with a demon to learn blood magic in exchange for letting the demon live. He gets the knowledge magically implanted then kills the demon anyway. He wasn't smited, there is no magical universe binding contract.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 20, 2016 17:21:28 GMT
I don't speak Japanese, but this is nice:
I just remembered about it: Merrill: You could get another cat, you know. There's one in the Lowtown market with a litter of kittens ready to wean. Anders: You don't pay attention to templars, Qunari or politics, but you notice kittens? Merrill: Templars, Qunari, and politics don't meow and attack your feet when you're buying food. Anders: Are there any tabbies? I'd like a tabby.
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 24, 2016 22:18:19 GMT
Merry Christmas!
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Post by Sifr on Dec 31, 2016 20:44:33 GMT
It has come to my knowledge, from World of Thedas 2, that Marethari made a deal of some sort with Flemyth. When her husband died, she went into the Konkari Wilds for 3 days. She came out, "looking grim" and the Avaar that killed her husband and other clansmen "fell prey to trees come to life." I wonder if taking the demon into herself was somehow tied to the deal she made to Mythal in exchange for that vengeance. Slightly off-topic, but that entry in WOT dose raise some questions regarding the timeline and the age of Mahariel's father? Ashalle tells the Dalish Warden in Origins that their father was the previous Keeper before Marethari. If she held the position of First during the Avvar attack in 8:82, that would indicate that he was the Keeper at that time, 48 years prior to the start of Origins. This seems to suggest that he probably fathered Mahariel quite late in life, since Ashalle mentions he was killed in another bandit attack shortly before Mahariel's birth, who seems to be barely into adulthood by the time the Dalish Origin takes place.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 22, 2017 4:26:12 GMT
I'm just stopping by to say that Merrill is still perfect.
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