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Post by Ieldra on Mar 6, 2019 18:20:29 GMT
Well, maybe I'm completely off-track with all of this. The problem for me is that my DAI characters felt fragile in terms of characterization strength. They worked more or less, but it was a constant struggle to keep them intact in my mind. In contrast, both characters I have now made for Pathfinder:Kingmaker and one of my characters in the POE games were resilient in terms of characterization strength. Whether the more detailed character creation or the more numerous relevant decisions were the reason, or something completely different, I don't really know in the end. I do know that I'd like to have characters that resilient in the next DA game. You are not off-track about DAI, but is that a reasonable or good standard, which computer roleplaying games should be hold to? As a caveat, you know you, and if you judge CRPGs primary on whether they allow or support roleplaying, that's totally legitimate. It's a good gold standard as anything else. However, speaking from personal experiences, I used to have this expectation, and unsurprisingly it was (and still is) quite uncommon to find games which actually allowed me to have that experience. Trying to impose this criteria lead to constant disappointments, and when I gave it up, and no longer tried to force it reality, I found out that I started to enjoy these games far more for what they actually were. I still enjoy roleplaying as a rare delicacy, but as a default I don't expect avg. CRPG to give me that experience. It might be counter-intuitive, but actually when you think about it, it's herculean task to get right with constraints of the medium. Ofc, roleplaying itself can be defined in many ways, but in this instance I am referring to: immersing oneself to a defined character, and secondly an ability to self-express, interpret and interact that character within a game somewhat on your own terms (emphasis on the self-expression. Although not even tabletop RPGs are about or allow a pure self-expression. It's always constrained and adjusted by rules, other players and GM). This alone is a tall order to fill, but combined it with demands for a satisfying narrative, gameplay, aesthetics, atmosphere, worldbuilding and so on. Nowadays, I typically seek for a more holistic experience, and if game is lacking on a certain domain like roleplaying, I typically try to adjust my expectations quickly, and drop the attempt before letting the game fail in it. I am not saying that this is what you should and need to do, but it's something that has made me enjoy these games more. Oh, I did enjoy DAI, and I actually did lower my expectations about Bioware's games since the MET. However, since there *are* games that facilitate roleplaying better, and I've played them, IMO the comparable lack can legitimately be mentioned as a flaw. If I only enjoyed games I wouldn't criticize I'd better not play a single one more.
As for my standards, yes, my primary standard for judging CRPGs is how they facilitate roleplaying (since they're called rp games, I see justification for that), along with the quality of the story they tell and the worldbuilding. That's not to say I can't appreciate other qualities, but those are why I play the games in the first place. I can't pretend they aren't the most important. Having said that, I am well aware that no video game can be as good as a well-made tabletop campaign in this regard - and since I've been playing and mastering those for several decades, I know the moments of perfect roleplaying are rare even there.
I think in the end one problem is that games often don't know what they want to be, or communicate that to me. It's all obfuscated by marketing-speak, telling everyone the newest game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's clear to me what a game like Pillars of Eternity wants to be, and I can judge it by its own standards (by which it comes out as very good, better than its successor in fact). I know what a game like Anthem wants to be, and know in advance it's not one I'd like to play, whether it succeeds by its own standard or not. I know what games like Dishonored, Deus Ex:Human Revolution or XCOM:EU want to be, and they succeeded well for me as well. Meanwhile, with Bioware's games after DAO, I'm not sure what they want to be. Bioware says they're Action-RPGs, but they don't appear to succeed very well in either compared to the paragons of either genre. Often I get the impression that Bioware wants to make an interactive B-movie with a few rpg fig leaves thrown in.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 6, 2019 18:57:57 GMT
Oh, I did enjoy DAI, and I actually did lower my expectations about Bioware's games since the MET. However, since there *are* games that facilitate roleplaying better, and I've played them, IMO the comparable lack can legitimately be mentioned as a flaw. If I only enjoyed games I wouldn't criticize I'd better not play a single one more.
As for my standards, yes, my primary standard for judging CRPGs is how they facilitate roleplaying (since they're called rp games, I see justification for that), along with the quality of the story they tell and the worldbuilding. That's not to say I can't appreciate other qualities, but those are why I play the games in the first place. I can't pretend they aren't the most important. Having said that, I am well aware that no video game can be as good as a well-made tabletop campaign in this regard - and since I've been playing and mastering those for several decades, I know the moments of perfect roleplaying are rare even there.
I think in the end one problem is that games often don't know what they want to be, or communicate that to me. It's all obfuscated by marketing-speak, telling everyone the newest game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's clear to me what a game like Pillars of Eternity wants to be, and I can judge it by its own standards (by which it comes out as very good, better than its successor in fact). I know what a game like Anthem wants to be, and know in advance it's not one I'd like to play, whether it succeeds by its own standard or not. I know what games like Dishonored, Deus Ex:Human Revolution or XCOM:EU want to be, and they succeeded well for me as well. Meanwhile, with Bioware's games after DAO, I'm not sure what they want to be. Bioware says they're Action-RPGs, but they don't appear to succeed very well in either compared to the paragons of either genre. Often I get the impression that Bioware wants to make an interactive B-movie with a few rpg fig leaves thrown in. I loved their initial diversion into what I suppose you’d call the middle ground of action rpgs me1 & me2 and even da2. i do agree that it seems now that this was considered the necessary pit stop on the road to the interactive movie not a destination of itself unfortunately.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 8, 2019 19:31:41 GMT
Oh, I did enjoy DAI, and I actually did lower my expectations about Bioware's games since the MET. However, since there *are* games that facilitate roleplaying better, and I've played them, IMO the comparable lack can legitimately be mentioned as a flaw. If I only enjoyed games I wouldn't criticize I'd better not play a single one more.
As for my standards, yes, my primary standard for judging CRPGs is how they facilitate roleplaying (since they're called rp games, I see justification for that), along with the quality of the story they tell and the worldbuilding. That's not to say I can't appreciate other qualities, but those are why I play the games in the first place. I can't pretend they aren't the most important. Having said that, I am well aware that no video game can be as good as a well-made tabletop campaign in this regard - and since I've been playing and mastering those for several decades, I know the moments of perfect roleplaying are rare even there.
I think in the end one problem is that games often don't know what they want to be, or communicate that to me. It's all obfuscated by marketing-speak, telling everyone the newest game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's clear to me what a game like Pillars of Eternity wants to be, and I can judge it by its own standards (by which it comes out as very good, better than its successor in fact). I know what a game like Anthem wants to be, and know in advance it's not one I'd like to play, whether it succeeds by its own standard or not. I know what games like Dishonored, Deus Ex:Human Revolution or XCOM:EU want to be, and they succeeded well for me as well. Meanwhile, with Bioware's games after DAO, I'm not sure what they want to be. Bioware says they're Action-RPGs, but they don't appear to succeed very well in either compared to the paragons of either genre. Often I get the impression that Bioware wants to make an interactive B-movie with a few rpg fig leaves thrown in. I loved their initial diversion into what I suppose you’d call the middle ground of action rpgs me1 & me2 and even da2. i do agree that it seems now that this was considered the necessary pit stop on the road to the interactive movie not a destination of itself unfortunately. OK, so I'm a little curious here. Are you talking about DAI/MEA or Anthem when you talk about the "interactive movie"? I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the latter, but I could be wrong.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 9, 2019 6:15:51 GMT
I think in the end one problem is that games often don't know what they want to be, or communicate that to me. It's all obfuscated by marketing-speak, telling everyone the newest game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's clear to me what a game like Pillars of Eternity wants to be, and I can judge it by its own standards (by which it comes out as very good, better than its successor in fact). I know what a game like Anthem wants to be, and know in advance it's not one I'd like to play, whether it succeeds by its own standard or not. I know what games like Dishonored, Deus Ex:Human Revolution or XCOM:EU want to be, and they succeeded well for me as well. Meanwhile, with Bioware's games after DAO, I'm not sure what they want to be. Bioware says they're Action-RPGs, but they don't appear to succeed very well in either compared to the paragons of either genre. Often I get the impression that Bioware wants to make an interactive B-movie with a few rpg fig leaves thrown in. Are you saying that you do know what Anthem wants to be, or you don't?
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 9, 2019 7:34:04 GMT
I think in the end one problem is that games often don't know what they want to be, or communicate that to me. It's all obfuscated by marketing-speak, telling everyone the newest game is the best thing since sliced bread. It's clear to me what a game like Pillars of Eternity wants to be, and I can judge it by its own standards (by which it comes out as very good, better than its successor in fact). I know what a game like Anthem wants to be, and know in advance it's not one I'd like to play, whether it succeeds by its own standard or not. I know what games like Dishonored, Deus Ex:Human Revolution or XCOM:EU want to be, and they succeeded well for me as well. Meanwhile, with Bioware's games after DAO, I'm not sure what they want to be. Bioware says they're Action-RPGs, but they don't appear to succeed very well in either compared to the paragons of either genre. Often I get the impression that Bioware wants to make an interactive B-movie with a few rpg fig leaves thrown in. Are you saying that you do know what Anthem wants to be, or you don't? Let's say I see strong enough evidence that we can consider we know that.
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Post by NotN7 on Mar 10, 2019 1:34:29 GMT
Myself if we are going to Triventer or to war I don't expect happy go lucky tone nor should it be doom and gloom but either way or should I say which direction Bioware goes the tone needs to be carried through the whole story, One thing I learned through my Military life is a great leader can lighten the mood but will never blow smoke up your you know what, war is not as glamorous as the movies make it out to be.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 10, 2019 2:03:52 GMT
NONE of the previous games have confronted us with a "realistic" depiction of war, or violence in general, frankly. People are looking at Origins through gore-tinted glasses. The game you're describing never existed.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 10, 2019 2:46:31 GMT
NONE of the previous games have confronted us with a "realistic" depiction of war, or violence in general, frankly. People are looking at Origins through gore-tinted glasses. The game you're describing never existed. I agree, but I also think there's a clear tonal difference between DA:O and DA:I. For what it's worth, there's an even more massive one between ME1 and ME2 and ME3, but that one doesn't get brought up as much for whatever reason. DA:O was conceived as D&D meets A Song of Ice and Fire, and so it had its moments when it tried to push a grimdark vibe. Maybe people miss rape-as-plot-device, something we know for a fact was specifically avoided for DA:I. Or maybe, to suggest a more generous outlook, they miss how DA:O and even DA2 to some extent would let you experience the lowest rungs of Thedosian society, while Inquisition is almost to a fault about massively privileged people fighting for the established order.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 10, 2019 3:00:05 GMT
Or maybe, to suggest a more generous outlook, they miss how DA:O and even DA2 to some extent would let you experience the lowest rungs of Thedosian society, while Inquisition is almost to a fault about massively privileged people fighting for the established order. An extremely generous outlook, given that if I were to bring up that same exact point (which I agree with by the way, and is the biggest reason I find the game terribly dull), I would almost instantly be bombarded with accusations of being an agenda-pushing sjw beta-cuck.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 10, 2019 12:32:50 GMT
Maybe people miss rape-as-plot-device Well, that's an unfortunate prospect. NONE of the previous games have confronted us with a "realistic" depiction of war, or violence in general, frankly. People are looking at Origins through gore-tinted glasses. The game you're describing never existed. More like sepia-tinted ones, given the color palette of the game. It's brown, so it must be realistic and gritty! There is even a damn joke in DA2 about how brown Ferelden is.
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Post by river82 on Mar 10, 2019 13:19:16 GMT
More like sepia-tinted ones, given the color palette of the game. It's brown, so it must be realistic and gritty! There is even a damn joke in DA2 about how brown Ferelden is. We went through a phase in gaming where most western games were brown and grey, Origins was released right at that time. There are many theories about it, one has to do with the inadequacy of console lighting technology at the time. I don't know whether this is true or not (I know nothing about this stuff), but it just seems weird to me that pretty much every game at the time went for the same colour design. We're getting much more colourful games presently at a time when "grit and realism" are still very popular. But why desaturated colors? There is one thing that our current consoles are terrible at; lighting. Our current lighting solutions are improving, but for the moment we have much difficulty simulating indirect lighting, especially in real-time. In the previous generation, graphical quality was not high enough for us to be bothered by the lack of indirect illumination in our saturated environments, but once again, as graphical quality rises, so does our expectations of how the world should be presented. Just as wonky animations will shatter immersion, so will poor lighting.
To hide this problem, we tend to instinctively desaturate everything. The mere presence of saturated colors unbalances the rest of the image. Since we often have some form of ambient occlusion in our environments, this visual effect makes the game look more visually convincing. The lack of indirect illumination, or more specifically the lack of radiosity, brings this level of believability off balance.
As our lighting solutions unify and become more dynamic-oriented, we can expect the next-generation games to have a much wider variety of color palettes as real-time translucency and indirect illumination become easily achievable. Expect saturated colors to be the new brown. www.gamasutra.com/blogs/PhilRA/20090606/84228/Why_quotNextGen_Gamesquot_Went_Gray_Brown_And_Grey.php
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 10, 2019 14:29:04 GMT
NONE of the previous games have confronted us with a "realistic" depiction of war, or violence in general, frankly. People are looking at Origins through gore-tinted glasses. The game you're describing never existed. I agree, but I also think there's a clear tonal difference between DA:O and DA:I. For what it's worth, there's an even more massive one between ME1 and ME2 and ME3, but that one doesn't get brought up as much for whatever reason. DA:O was conceived as D&D meets A Song of Ice and Fire, and so it had its moments when it tried to push a grimdark vibe. Maybe people miss rape-as-plot-device, something we know for a fact was specifically avoided for DA:I. Or maybe, to suggest a more generous outlook, they miss how DA:O and even DA2 to some extent would let you experience the lowest rungs of Thedosian society, while Inquisition is almost to a fault about massively privileged people fighting for the established order. It's kinda hard to explain for me (at least I think so), but I'm still gonna try. DA:O... sure, it had strong ASoIaF grimdark-ish vibes, and maybe it played a part in how I see it, but there are some things I believe it did better than DA:I. For instance, the game did a better job at establishing the darkspawn as a threat to be taken seriously than DA:I did with Corypheus and the Breach. In Origins, we had the intro, we had the cutscenes in Ostagar (particularly the one when the darkspawn and the Fereldan forces are about to clash), there were the Deep Roads (especially the Dead Trenches...), and the basic premise wasn't merely to fight them, it was to get all of these people to help you because if you didn't... goodbye world. For the Breach? We have only a big green glowy spot in the sky and we are told it's bringing demons into the world. DA:I certainly had more demons than the other two games, but we never really got to see the chaos that ensued from the big explosion, we just woke up, got told there a big hole we need to patch up, and there we go. Even throughout the world there wasn't anything that implied the Breach was that big a threat. Just the rifts, and those were just... there. Essentially, it's a good-old case of Show versus Tell, and BioWare went for the Tell. And Corypheus... simply lacked the foundation to be taken as a credible threat. He arrives and destroys Haven. Cool, that means we got a real castle now, thanks! Not only that, but every mission after that is about putting and end to Cory's plans and succeeding. I've made this point before, but now that I look more closely at the premise for DA:O, the shift is more than just jarring. And that's where the problem lies. At least partially. I certainly won't miss the use of rape-as-a-plot-device, though.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 10, 2019 15:06:13 GMT
Maybe people miss rape-as-plot-device Well, that's an unfortunate prospect. To anyone who feels this way, might I direct you to the Outlander series? Not only do they employ rape as a plot device, I dare say it's the only one.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 10, 2019 15:11:01 GMT
For the Breach? We have only a big green glowy spot in the sky and we are told it's bringing demons into the world. DA:I certainly had more demons than the other two games, but we never really got to see the chaos that ensued from the big explosion, we just woke up, got told there a big hole we need to patch up, and there we go. Even throughout the world there wasn't anything that implied the Breach was that big a threat. Just the rifts, and those were just... there. Essentially, it's a good-old case of Show versus Tell, and BioWare went for the Tell. Eh, I think the DAI tutorial phase did a decent enough job of that. Where I do think it went wrong is in not showing more dire effects outside of the immediate area. On other maps, we run into various rifts, but they, or the Breach, don't have much of an impact beyond the small radius of demons. I'd say the best example was the rift in Crestwood causing the undead to rise, but that's just one map. And Corypheus... simply lacked the foundation to be taken as a credible threat. He arrives and destroys Haven. Cool, that means we got a real castle now, thanks! Not only that, but every mission after that is about putting and end to Cory's plans and succeeding. I do agree that development of Corypheus was lacking. It's apparently a bit better if you side with the templars, but that in itself is poor design because you're cheating a significant portion of players who don't choose that path out of that characterization. However, I believe that they've acknowledged that issue regarding Corypheus, so they know it was a problem.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 10, 2019 15:19:57 GMT
For the Breach? We have only a big green glowy spot in the sky and we are told it's bringing demons into the world. DA:I certainly had more demons than the other two games, but we never really got to see the chaos that ensued from the big explosion, we just woke up, got told there a big hole we need to patch up, and there we go. Even throughout the world there wasn't anything that implied the Breach was that big a threat. Just the rifts, and those were just... there. Essentially, it's a good-old case of Show versus Tell, and BioWare went for the Tell. Eh, I think the DAI tutorial phase did a decent enough job of that. Where I do think it went wrong is not not showing more dire effects outside of the immediate area. On other maps, we run into various rifts, but they, or the Breach, don't have much of an impact. Yeah, I agree. That's exactly what I was trying to say for the latter part. The former's just me airing my frustrations at the absence of a proper "prologue" scene to set the stage. Y'know, walking around the temple, getting to know people from both sides, and then BOOM! Gaping hole in the sky, HoA locked up for interrogation, stuff like that. It's something that DA4 needs. A lot. And Corypheus... simply lacked the foundation to be taken as a credible threat. He arrives and destroys Haven. Cool, that means we got a real castle now, thanks! Not only that, but every mission after that is about putting and end to Cory's plans and succeeding. I do agree that development of Corypheus was lacking. It's apparently a bit better if you side with the templars, but that in itself is poor design because you're cheating a significant portion of player who don't choose that path out of that characterization. However, I believe that they've acknowledged that issue regarding Corypheus, so they know it was a problem. Considering who we're likely facing in DA4 and who's the lead writer, I strongly doubt we'll be blue-balled villain-wise. Unless they pull another DA:I and the big villain turns out to be someone else, in which case I can't say for certain how it'll be.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 10, 2019 15:24:40 GMT
I would friggin LOVE it if they killed Solas right at the start of the game, tbh.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 10, 2019 15:27:42 GMT
Unless they pull another DA:I and the big villain turns out to be someone else I don't think that's quite accurate. Corypheus was the main villain in the DAI base game. Even Solas truly wanted to stop him. Just because Solas himself turned out to be the (unintended) reason for Corypheus's actions doesn't negate Corypheus's role as the primary villain of the base game. Trespasser continues the story beyond DAI, but the events of DAI itself were fully resolved at the end of the game.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 10, 2019 15:34:58 GMT
I certainly won't miss the use of rape-as-a-plot-device, though. It's not like the whole game revolved around this. I see no problem with it. Any topic is fair game.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 10, 2019 15:36:09 GMT
I would friggin LOVE it if they killed Solas right at the start of the game, tbh. Oh don't mind me, I'm just gonna screencap this so I can show it to as many Solasmancers as possible if this actually happens in the game. Unless they pull another DA:I and the big villain turns out to be someone else I don't think that's quite accurate. Corypheus was the main villain in the DAI base game. Even Solas truly wanted to stop him. Just because Solas himself turned out to be the (unintended) reason for Corypheus's actions doesn't negate Corypheus's role as the primary villain of the base game. Trespasser continues the story beyond DAI, but the events of DAI itself were fully resolved at the end of the game. Yeah, probably not. Still a hell of a switcheroo though. EDIT: I certainly won't miss the use of rape-as-a-plot-device, though. It's not like the whole game revolved around this. I see no problem with it. Any topic is fair game. True. As it happens, I am weary of it, but that's because the only interesting books I'm reading are A Song of Ice and Fire, so it stands to reason that I'd get tired of it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 10, 2019 15:39:41 GMT
I would friggin LOVE it if they killed Solas right at the start of the game, tbh. If we don’t play as the Inquisitor, count me in with this.
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September 2018
arcadiagrey
ArcadiaGrey
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Mar 10, 2019 15:48:26 GMT
I would friggin LOVE it if they killed Solas right at the start of the game, tbh. I like Solas but that'd be pretty great move from BioWare.....but the forum would drown in the tears of the Solasmancers
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The Smiling Knight
538
0
Sept 29, 2024 7:23:32 GMT
23,402
smilesja
14,304
August 2016
smilesja
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Post by smilesja on Mar 10, 2019 15:50:26 GMT
I would friggin LOVE it if they killed Solas right at the start of the game, tbh. I like Solas but that'd be pretty great move from BioWare.....but the forum would drown in the tears of the Solasmancers I bathe in the tears of solomancers!
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376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
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Post by opuspace on Mar 10, 2019 15:58:07 GMT
I like Solas but that'd be pretty great move from BioWare.....but the forum would drown in the tears of the Solasmancers I bathe in the tears of solomancers! That's low, especially when vhenansequitur did nothing to deserve that. I don't think it's asking too much for other Solasmancers to be given a choice in resolving the plot a different way.
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inherit
3354
0
Sept 28, 2024 23:33:32 GMT
3,005
Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
1,058
February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 10, 2019 16:02:06 GMT
I like Solas but that'd be pretty great move from BioWare.....but the forum would drown in the tears of the Solasmancers I bathe in the tears of solomancers! Weekes drinks 'em. Top that.
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inherit
The Smiling Knight
538
0
Sept 29, 2024 7:23:32 GMT
23,402
smilesja
14,304
August 2016
smilesja
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Post by smilesja on Mar 10, 2019 16:04:23 GMT
I bathe in the tears of solomancers! That's low, especially when vhenansequitur did nothing to deserve that. I don't think it's asking too much for other Solasmancers to be given a choice in resolving the plot a different way. Opuspace calm down will you? I’m (mostly) joking.
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