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Post by colfoley on Apr 5, 2019 18:40:14 GMT
Ah. That clarification is really helpful. To your specific point about Celene, while i acknoedge you know history... I think you're wrong. I can think of many examples throughout human history of nobility or "people who shouldn't be there" being on battlefields. Hell i can even name one historical ruling monarch who assumed an identity just so he could lead troops into battle. Dragon Age itself has always played fast and loose with this concept given all three of the main human protagonists are nobility. As well as several of your companions and enemies. DAI was especially egregious because the Inquisitor was a noble and was especially important... And yet led troops into battle. I give them a pass because they used it to good effect. Just like Celene. As to your larger point I don't give it that a fictional setting has to copy ours for realism. Yes I've given thedas a lot of credit for mirroring certain aspects of real world history and yes there is a market for such things but Thedas is very much it's own entity with it's own problems. I prefer it that settings should, rather then trying to imitate ours, try to maintain internal consistency. Take an idea; a technology, a resource, some phenmnon, and run with it. IE: 'Whaat if humanity encounters an element which enables us to lower the mass of our ships, change the laws of physics, and start exploring the stars?' 'What if the world is beset by a magical plague which hits it every couple of centuries?' Yes, fictional settings should take their own inspiration from our world but it is often the differences that make our world and fictional worlds so interesting. And finally the spiel on post modernism...I think you really miss the boat here. I mean first of all most of the problems you are ascribing to Dragon Age seems to be fairly typical of the medium...if not of the specific genre. Most games I have played are power fantasies with only a few examples that don't go out of the way to treat the protagonist with a certain speciality within the world. But with specifics to Dragon Age, again, I think you underestimate just how dark Dragon Age continues to be even in Inquisition. It still is a dark world where horrible things happen and our best intentions often lead us astray. Yes, in Inquisition you can defeat Corypheus and win the game fairly easily...but as far as it goes my Inquisitor left a lot of bodies in her wake. People she didn't mean to kill and people she didn't want to kill and even people she regrets killing. So much so that it really effects her arc. And if you don't take certain steps or make certain choices in the game the world could be a whole lot emptier. (See what happens with the Wardens, the Elves, Celene and her court etc.) The game often presented us with difficult morally ambigious choices and asked us to make them based on limited information, which could easily get people killed. Except we're not just talking about a military leader or hands-on royalty, we're talking about the de facto most powerful and influential woman in the world with no combat or survival training that we know of standing in the middle of the wilds, right next to a battlefield, in a dressing gown, completely unguarded and apparently just banking that nobody is going to notice her and she won't get in the way. Entirely by her own choice, and for no practical reason whatsoever, except to boost the player's ego. Any wandering enemy could spot her, walk up to her and murder her, and that would be the end of the stability in Orlais. And she would deserve it. Such a situation has never occured so far as I know, because nobody has ever been that stupid and careless. It's not only historically and realistically ludicrous, it's also completely out of character for her and her culture to allow this to happen. But it's treated as her arbitrarily making the decision because... she wants to be seen as a dynamic leader who didn't just sit the battle out? In that case she could have been decked out in dress armor and surrounded by the most loyal and skilled Chevaliers in the Empire and looked like a badass without actually putting herself in danger, like Anora tried to do. And she could have been doing it to win over the faction of Chevaliers who followed Gaspard in a bid to consolidate her power, like Anora tried. But no, she just stands there alone looking like a peacock copy-pasted in from an earlier quest, complimenting the player. I almost had her killed in this playthrough just to avoid seeing her there being so stupid and pointless and disrespectful of basically everything else in the setting, nakedly trying to manipulate me into feeling more excited than I am. Barf. I never said those themes weren't typical to the medium these days, or that Dragon Age doesn't have dark themes. I do still enjoy the series, you know. Just pointing out some tendencies I'm not enjoying about it at the moment, and where it diverges from classical fantasy in my view. I take it you haven't read the masked empire? I was going to bring up that Celene is quite a competent fighter in her own right. She has skill with daggers and has a magical ring that let's her predict her opponent's moves. Sure it is annoying she is there, i think one of her entourage (or Josie) makes the very same points you do. But given her character and the fact that it did help set up player choice it was used to good effect. And she was also surrounded. By an army. The only real danger she was in is if the Dragon attacked. And yes, i normally have her killed in my cannon playthroughs... But not because of this. Lol. I know you like the series still, I've even read some of your posts in the "what did you do today" thread... I just personallyn think you are being a little hard on it in these instances.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 5, 2019 18:50:09 GMT
Except we're not just talking about a military leader or hands-on royalty, we're talking about the de facto most powerful and influential woman in the world with no combat or survival training that we know of standing in the middle of the wilds, right next to a battlefield, in a dressing gown, completely unguarded and apparently just banking that nobody is going to notice her and she won't get in the way. Entirely by her own choice, and for no practical reason whatsoever, except to boost the player's ego. Any wandering enemy could spot her, walk up to her and murder her, and that would be the end of the stability in Orlais. And she would deserve it. Such a situation has never occured so far as I know, because nobody has ever been that stupid and careless. It's not only historically and realistically ludicrous, it's also completely out of character for her and her culture to allow this to happen. But it's treated as her arbitrarily making the decision because... she wants to be seen as a dynamic leader who didn't just sit the battle out? In that case she could have been decked out in dress armor and surrounded by the most loyal and skilled Chevaliers in the Empire and looked like a badass without actually putting herself in danger, like Anora tried to do. And she could have been doing it to win over the faction of Chevaliers who followed Gaspard in a bid to consolidate her power, like Anora tried. But no, she just stands there alone looking like a peacock copy-pasted in from an earlier quest, complimenting the player. I almost had her killed in this playthrough just to avoid seeing her there being so stupid and pointless and disrespectful of basically everything else in the setting, nakedly trying to manipulate me into feeling more excited than I am. Barf. I never said those themes weren't typical to the medium these days, or that Dragon Age doesn't have dark themes. I do still enjoy the series, you know. Just pointing out some tendencies I'm not enjoying about it at the moment, and where it diverges from classical fantasy in my view. I take it you haven't read the masked empire? I was going to bring up that Celene is quite a competent fighter in her own right. She has skill with daggers and has a magical ring that let's her predict her opponent's moves. Sure it is annoying she is there, i think one of her entourage (or Josie) makes the very same points you do. But given her character and the fact that it did help set up player choice it was used to good effect. And she was also surrounded. By an army. The only real danger she was in is if the Dragon attacked. And yes, i normally have her killed in my cannon playthroughs... But not because of this. Lol. I know you like the series still, I've even read some of your posts in the "what did you do today" thread... I just personallyn think you are being a little hard on it in these instances. Yes, Celene is a trained bard in her own right. And in addition to that ring, she has another that imbues her daggers with a fire enchantment. And she's implied to have several other magical items to protect her. Her presence on the battlefield is most likely to be a morale thing. Much like when Queen Elizabeth I met with her troops at Tillbury as they prepared to meet the Spanish Armada in 1588. Still, she's not entirely defenseless.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 5, 2019 19:02:22 GMT
I take it you haven't read the masked empire? I was going to bring up that Celene is quite a competent fighter in her own right. She has skill with daggers and has a magical ring that let's her predict her opponent's moves. Sure it is annoying she is there, i think one of her entourage (or Josie) makes the very same points you do. But given her character and the fact that it did help set up player choice it was used to good effect. And she was also surrounded. By an army. The only real danger she was in is if the Dragon attacked. And yes, i normally have her killed in my cannon playthroughs... But not because of this. Lol. I know you like the series still, I've even read some of your posts in the "what did you do today" thread... I just personallyn think you are being a little hard on it in these instances. Yes, Celene is a trained bard in her own right. And in addition to that ring, she has another that imbues her daggers with a fire enchantment. And she's implied to have several other magical items to protect her. Her presence on the battlefield is most likely to be a morale thing. Much like when Queen Elizabeth I met with her troops at Tillbury as they prepared to meet the Spanish Armada in 1588. Still, she's not entirely defenseless. thank you. I forgot who had the fire ring, her or Briala, which is why i didn't mention it.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 5, 2019 19:12:49 GMT
I take it you haven't read the masked empire? I was going to bring up that Celene is quite a competent fighter in her own right. She has skill with daggers and has a magical ring that let's her predict her opponent's moves. Sure it is annoying she is there, i think one of her entourage (or Josie) makes the very same points you do. But given her character and the fact that it did help set up player choice it was used to good effect. And she was also surrounded. By an army. The only real danger she was in is if the Dragon attacked. And yes, i normally have her killed in my cannon playthroughs... But not because of this. Lol. I know you like the series still, I've even read some of your posts in the "what did you do today" thread... I just personallyn think you are being a little hard on it in these instances. I haven't, no, and nothing in any of the games alludes to it, and that ring certainly doesn't stop Florianne from shoving a knife in her back, and likewise wouldn't have stopped a crossbow bolt fired from between bushes a hundred meters away at the important-looking lady in the shining blue dress perfectly contrasting her lush green surroundings. It does help a bit knowing that she isn't totally untrained. Doesn't really change my impression of her being there though. And she isn't surrounded by an army, she's surrounded by two armies fighting each other in messy and disorganized skirmishes everywhere through the forest, any number of which could realistically break through and focus their attention on the camp at any moment, where her relative competence with daggers and the Inquisition scout and off-duty Orlesian soldier sitting nearby would do absolutely nil to save her. There probably isn't even a chair for several miles in any direction for her to sit on that wouldn't ruin her dress. It's fine if her being there somehow did something for you, but my first reaction upon seeing it for the first time was bewilderment and annoyance. I'd let her keep the throne specifically so she could stay the hell there and keep Orlais from running off the rails while not getting in my way. And here she was, stupidly risking her life for no reason whatsoever and taking up my valuable time again. And she wasn't the type to stick her own neck out on principle, so clearly she was there because she didn't understand the severity of the situation. Which ruined any feeling of tension the quest started with.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 5, 2019 19:35:32 GMT
I take it you haven't read the masked empire? I was going to bring up that Celene is quite a competent fighter in her own right. She has skill with daggers and has a magical ring that let's her predict her opponent's moves. Sure it is annoying she is there, i think one of her entourage (or Josie) makes the very same points you do. But given her character and the fact that it did help set up player choice it was used to good effect. And she was also surrounded. By an army. The only real danger she was in is if the Dragon attacked. And yes, i normally have her killed in my cannon playthroughs... But not because of this. Lol. I know you like the series still, I've even read some of your posts in the "what did you do today" thread... I just personallyn think you are being a little hard on it in these instances. I haven't, no, and nothing in any of the games allude to it, and that ring certainly doesn't stop Florianne from shoving a knife in her back, and likewise wouldn't have stopped a crossbow bolt fired from between bushes a hundred meters away at the important-looking lady in the shining blue dress perfectly contrasting her lush green surroundings. It does help a bit knowing that she isn't totally untrained. Doesn't really change my impression of her being there though. And she isn't surrounded by an army, she's surrounded by two armies fighting each other in mixed skirmishes everywhere through the forest, any number of which could realistically break through and focus their attention on the camp at any moment, where her relative competence with daggers and the Inquisition scout and off-duty Orlesian soldier sitting nearby would do absolutely nil to save her. There probably isn't even a chair for several miles in any direction for her to sit on that wouldn't ruin her dress. It's fine if her being there somehow did something for you, but my first reaction upon seeing it for the first time was bewilderment and annoyance. I'd let her keep the throne specifically so she could stay the hell there and keep Orlais from running off the rails while not getting in my way. And here she was, stupidly risking her life for no reason whatsoever and taking up my valuable time again. And she wasn't the type to stick her own neck out on principle, so clearly she was there because she didn't understand the severity of the situation. Which ruined any feeling of tension the quest started with. you could also do what i did and assume she got the hell out of dodge the moment she finished talking to you.
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Post by mousestalker on Apr 5, 2019 19:44:04 GMT
I'd love for BW to depart from the grittiness that's been present in the previous three and pursue a plot and setting derived from Regency romances. No one has done a game of manners . And if they threw in ponies as well along with a pastel colour palate that would be awesome! and if you are serious...did you know there's a mod for Skyrim the does exactly that? (personally never used it, I like my mods to be immersive and making sense)
Which one?. I'm afraid I'm not much of a fan of Skyrim, so I've only played it twice.
And yes, I am completely serious. The Tevinter court is perfect for intrigue, social climbing and match making.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 5, 2019 19:56:16 GMT
Which one?. I'm afraid I'm not much of a fan of Skyrim, so I've only played it twice.
And yes, I am completely serious. The Tevinter court is perfect for intrigue, social climbing and match making.
I meant your comment about the pastel ponies well...pastel color pallette and ponies that is (there's a Skyrim mod that changes the horses pulling the carriages into my little pony characters)
^your pastel color pallette comment also made me think of this
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Post by mousestalker on Apr 5, 2019 20:00:33 GMT
An Addams Family inspired game could be fun as well. Gomez and Morticia have one of the great tv romances after all.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Apr 5, 2019 20:05:29 GMT
An Addams Family inspired game could be fun as well. Gomez and Morticia have one of the great tv romances after all. how about a romance option inspired by one of them? (though imo. Dorian does sometimes feel a bit like Gomez at times...)
I have an uncle who's surname is Adams (with one D), and according to my dad, my aunt(my dad's sister) hated it when my dad would hum the Addams family tune (she grew past it in the end though)
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 5, 2019 20:12:26 GMT
Extend it further. In ME1 Shepard shouldn't ever be used in battle, because Shepard really is indispensable; anyone can shoot enemies, but only Shepard can use a beacon. (It'd be true for ME:A too, but SAM can transfer if Ryder gets killed.) Similarly, in DA:O after Riordan's reveal the three available Wardens shouldn't be in any battles unless the Archdemon is actually present. I always thought I would have been interesting if inME1, Ashley/Kaidan was the one to receive the beacon message and Shepard, as the first human Spectre was tasked with escorting them about and protecting them as they worked the message out. I would have liked that. There's even some gaming precedent for it.
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Post by river82 on Apr 5, 2019 20:26:47 GMT
And yes, I am completely serious. The Tevinter court is perfect for intrigue, social climbing and match making. Making a AAA RPG focused on social climbing and matchmaking would be a waste. There's no point to a combat system (grinding killing stuff doesn't match a social climbing atmosphere, so you can scrap the combat system and the copious effort to balance the game.) You can shrink the map substantially. And you can limit the control of the character. To be honest Seven Kingdoms: Princess Problems does this as an indie game (still being worked on) - sevenkingdomsgame.com/demo/ Hakuouki doesn't have the social climbing or matchmaking, but it has political intrigue and romance and was made at a fraction of the cost of a AAA RPG. So an adventure, or interactive fiction/visual novel might suit this proposed game's parameters. You could also make it a sim, I guess. Which would be perfect for Bioware's new, cheaper, AA games they wanted to experiment with. A spin-off or side game about politics and matchmaking in the Tevinter court. They can make it heavily focused on stories and choices, make it real pretty, but not make it very expensive so as to cut down on risk. I like this idea.
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 6, 2019 16:27:03 GMT
and if you are serious...did you know there's a mod for Skyrim the does exactly that? (personally never used it, I like my mods to be immersive and making sense)
Which one?. I'm afraid I'm not much of a fan of Skyrim, so I've only played it twice.
And yes, I am completely serious. The Tevinter court is perfect for intrigue, social climbing and match making.
Honestly, I could go with a bit more political intrigue for Tevinter. Sounds like fun. Maybe a couple segments inspired by the concept of WEWH. It'd be honestly dumb not to have them.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 6, 2019 19:09:51 GMT
Honestly, I could go with a bit more political intrigue for Tevinter. Sounds like fun. Maybe a couple segments inspired by the concept of WEWH. It'd be honestly dumb not to have them. The concept? Sure, that'd be cool. The execution? Not so much. I could see what was attempted in WEWH done better on a much smaller scale, without quite so high stakes or so much stuffy opulence. And more fluid gameplay. And no awkwardly animated mandatory partner dances. Semi-formal banquets with minor nobility and local officials would be fun. Sebastian's birthday celebration in Starkhaven in one of the comics actually looks like a good time, with plenty of backstabbing potential if one is so inclined.
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 7, 2019 19:17:57 GMT
Honestly, I could go with a bit more political intrigue for Tevinter. Sounds like fun. Maybe a couple segments inspired by the concept of WEWH. It'd be honestly dumb not to have them. The concept? Sure, that'd be cool. The execution? Not so much. I could see what was attempted in WEWH done better on a much smaller scale, without quite so high stakes or so much stuffy opulence. And more fluid gameplay. And no awkwardly animated mandatory partner dances. Semi-formal banquets with minor nobility and local officials would be fun. Sebastian's birthday celebration in Starkhaven in one of the comics actually looks like a good time, with plenty of backstabbing potential if one is so inclined. I mean, that's why I specifically singled out the concept. Smaller scale missions would be just perfect.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2019 19:40:52 GMT
Honestly, I could go with a bit more political intrigue for Tevinter. Sounds like fun. Maybe a couple segments inspired by the concept of WEWH. It'd be honestly dumb not to have them. The concept? Sure, that'd be cool. The execution? Not so much. I could see what was attempted in WEWH done better on a much smaller scale, without quite so high stakes or so much stuffy opulence. And more fluid gameplay. And no awkwardly animated mandatory partner dances. Semi-formal banquets with minor nobility and local officials would be fun. Sebastian's birthday celebration in Starkhaven in one of the comics actually looks like a good time, with plenty of backstabbing potential if one is so inclined. And no halla statues!
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 7, 2019 20:29:37 GMT
I mean, that's why I specifically singled out the concept. Smaller scale missions would be just perfect. Then be more verbose. Really hammer it home. That way nobody can swoop in and follow your brilliant points through and claim the credit. Just one. A big one the size of a pony, crying, guarding the lavatory with the words "Why wasn't I invited to the big party?" carved into its forehead.
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Post by mousestalker on Apr 7, 2019 21:16:09 GMT
I mean, that's why I specifically singled out the concept. Smaller scale missions would be just perfect. Then be more verbose. Really hammer it home. That way nobody can swoop in and follow your brilliant points through and claim the credit. Just one. A big one the size of a pony, crying, guarding the lavatory with the words "Why wasn't I invited to the big party?" carved into its forehead. There needs to be more than one. You really can never have enough halla statues
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 7, 2019 21:28:04 GMT
Then be more verbose. Really hammer it home. That way nobody can swoop in and follow your brilliant points through and claim the credit. Just one. A big one the size of a pony, crying, guarding the lavatory with the words "Why wasn't I invited to the big party?" carved into its forehead. There needs to be more than one. You really can never have enough halla statues
Think I'd rather take the halla statues...
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 8, 2019 12:39:41 GMT
An Addams Family inspired game could be fun as well. Gomez and Morticia have one of the great tv romances after all. Indeed so. Never was the old-fashioned so true. Perhaps there are some Tevinter traditions that could be revived in a similar way for a DA game's romances? Traditions too stuffy if expressed seriously, but if infused with the right kind of light-heartedness, could convey romance like no other?
Having said that, "no romances" would be one of my wishes for DA4 - I'd rather see them spend their resources on better quests.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 8, 2019 13:17:18 GMT
An Addams Family inspired game could be fun as well. Gomez and Morticia have one of the great tv romances after all. Indeed so. Never was the old-fashioned so true. Perhaps there are some Tevinter traditions that could be revived in a similar way for a DA game's romances? Traditions too stuffy if expressed seriously, but if infused with the right kind of light-heartedness, could convey romance like no other?
Having said that, "no romances" would be one of my wishes for DA4 - I'd rather see them spend their resources on better quests.
Or just fairly low-key ones without all the bells and whistles and fanfare. Quiet crushes, a bit of flirting and the occasional heat-of-the-moment tumble in the hay would be fun. But no fetch-quests or extended cutscenes or godawful animated sex. And no talk of blue babies or anything like it until the game's epilogue. The only Bioware game I've played to date where the characters conceivably had time or energy for extended courtships and serious relationships was DA2, and they didn't really take advantage of it there. I'd rather they just toned the whole thing down and left it mostly implicit. From what I remember of NWN2, for example, the romances cut from development left these little isolated pieces of dialogue and tender chemistry that actually worked much better and felt more authentic than either of the classic full-scale romantic relationships available. Less is sometimes more, and all that.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 8, 2019 13:42:29 GMT
There needs to be more than one. You really can never have enough halla statues
Think I'd rather take the halla statues... We're in Tevinter, right? Wouldn't dragon statues be a better fit? Or something dwarvish since dwarvish culture appears to be the only demihuman culture widely present in Tevinter. What about collecting some of those massive Paragon statues.
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Post by mousestalker on Apr 8, 2019 14:05:05 GMT
Think I'd rather take the halla statues... We're in Tevinter, right? Wouldn't dragon statues be a better fit? Or something dwarvish since dwarvish culture appears to be the only demihuman culture widely present in Tevinter. What about collecting some of those massive Paragon statues.
Tevinter is a Roman Empire analog, so what would likely be appropriate statuary would be semi broken pagan (pre-Chantry) statues and monuments, some scattered Andrastean stuff and the spoils of conquest (relics of Arlathan and other lands) carried off as trophies. Hallas would fit in quite well given that.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 8, 2019 14:09:38 GMT
Think I'd rather take the halla statues... We're in Tevinter, right? Wouldn't dragon statues be a better fit? Or something dwarvish since dwarvish culture appears to be the only demihuman culture widely present in Tevinter. What about collecting some of those massive Paragon statues. Great idea, we could have an improved version of the WEWH quest. "You found the locked door? Good, now help me with the wheelbarrow."
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 9, 2019 3:54:37 GMT
We're in Tevinter, right? Wouldn't dragon statues be a better fit? Or something dwarvish since dwarvish culture appears to be the only demihuman culture widely present in Tevinter. What about collecting some of those massive Paragon statues. Great idea, we could have an improved version of the WEWH quest. "You found the locked door? Good, now help me with the wheelbarrow." "Keep it steady! Damn it, just leave it here and we'll come back later, we'll look like unsophisticated pigs if we aren't back before the Archon finishes this sip of wine anyway. We can try again next time he raises his goblet."
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 9, 2019 10:44:18 GMT
Great idea, we could have an improved version of the WEWH quest. "You found the locked door? Good, now help me with the wheelbarrow." "Keep it steady! Damn it, just leave it here and we'll come back later, we'll look like unsophisticated pigs if we aren't back before the Archon finishes this sip of wine anyway. We can try again next time he raises his goblet." Now I want a sidequest where we steal priceless art from the Archon's palace. No political motives.
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