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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2019 12:48:25 GMT
you say mature, I say, bland and boring. DA:I is just okay, it was saved thanks to its DLCs. That's simply the truth. Otherwise pretty much forgettable for most people or casual gamers who are not fanboys. It didn't stand out. It was successfull enough to make another game, that's it. As realitic characters instead of caricatures, you are probably joking given all the caricatures in DAII. In DA:I, Erimond, Clarel, Corypheus, the protagonists of the orlesian civil war, were certainly not good examples of good writting, just bland charaters, if not " caricatures ". how funny it is. Blackwall, Vivienne ? Very bland, Sera not a caricature ? Lmao. The witcher 3, for a game that is a " parody and not mature ", was certainly more interesting, more mature in portraying a civil war and doing politics than your " mature storytelling with in depth understanding or religions and politics " Excuse me, I had to laugh at that line when I am thinking about the politics in Orlais in Inquisition, or DA:I mostly using war table missions The portrayal of the civil war between templars and mages ? I think the core problem is that some people of those who made DAI appear to subscribe to the idea that you should be shielded from certain kinds of bad stuff, even if just expressed in words or art. Thus, you will never have in a DA game a scene like the one in TW3 where you go with Triss as a fake captive in order to extract info from the Inquisitor. Sure, that scene is hard to bear and even harder to follow through with, even though it's all her idea, but nothing in DAI is even remotely that intense, nor is the satisfaction when you finally see that bastard killed and his base go up in Triss' magical fire.
Thedas is clearly a world where such things are not unknown, thus refusing to confront the player with them with the same intensity dilutes the experience. I'm not sure whether the CD Projekt people know their storytelling better than the people at Bioware, but they apparently feel less constrained by people's possible oversensitivity and appear more likely to just tell their story.
It's trademark AAA thinking in my opinion. To appeal to the widest possible demographic is to partly refrain from offending as many people's sensibilities as possible. So what you get, like Hollywood movies, is very sanitised works. I think part of the reason people like CDProjekt is they don't yet behave like a triple A studio. Also one of the reasons books will always be superior as a storytelling medium is because of the comparatively low cost of producing books (as well as having very few people involved in the creation process), they'll always be less constrained and more free.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 19, 2019 13:55:54 GMT
I think the core problem is that some people of those who made DAI appear to subscribe to the idea that you should be shielded from certain kinds of bad stuff, even if just expressed in words or art. Thus, you will never have in a DA game a scene like the one in TW3 where you go with Triss as a fake captive in order to extract info from the Inquisitor. Sure, that scene is hard to bear and even harder to follow through with, even though it's all her idea, but nothing in DAI is even remotely that intense, nor is the satisfaction when you finally see that bastard killed and his base go up in Triss' magical fire.
Thedas is clearly a world where such things are not unknown, thus refusing to confront the player with them with the same intensity dilutes the experience. I'm not sure whether the CD Projekt people know their storytelling better than the people at Bioware, but they apparently feel less constrained by people's possible oversensitivity and appear more likely to just tell their story.
It's trademark AAA thinking in my opinion. To appeal to the widest possible demographic is to partly refrain from offending as many people's sensibilities as possible. So what you get, like Hollywood movies, is very sanitised works. I think part of the reason people like CDProjekt is they don't yet behave like a triple A studio. Also one of the reasons books will always be superior as a storytelling medium is because of the comparatively low cost of producing books (as well as having very few people involved in the creation process), they'll always be less constrained and more free. Maybe it's also the reason why non-AAA studies are noticeably more free in what they write into their games? At least that's my impression. It isn't even that there is more content in their games I would expect to see classified "problematic" by an AAA studio, but in a rather more general way, you notice that not every line is carefully screened. Of course, those games often not being 100% voiced also goes into it.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 19, 2019 15:45:32 GMT
Of course, the particular tastes of the dev houses are also in play.
There would be a sorting effect in the dev staffs. If you don't want to make games like an AAA dev does, you don't end up working there. Maybe you instead go to some indie outfit that will make stuff closer to the way you want to.
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Post by Kabraxal on Feb 19, 2019 16:46:58 GMT
you say mature, I say, bland and boring. DA:I is just okay, it was saved thanks to its DLCs. That's simply the truth. Otherwise pretty much forgettable for most people or casual gamers who are not fanboys. It didn't stand out. It was successfull enough to make another game, that's it. As realitic characters instead of caricatures, you are probably joking given all the caricatures in DAII. In DA:I, Erimond, Clarel, Corypheus, the protagonists of the orlesian civil war, were certainly not good examples of good writting, just bland charaters, if not " caricatures ". how funny it is. Blackwall, Vivienne ? Very bland, Sera not a caricature ? Lmao. The witcher 3, for a game that is a " parody and not mature ", was certainly more interesting, more mature in portraying a civil war and doing politics than your " mature storytelling with in depth understanding or religions and politics " Excuse me, I had to laugh at that line when I am thinking about the politics in Orlais in Inquisition, or DA:I mostly using war table missions The portrayal of the civil war between templars and mages ? I think the core problem is that some people of those who made DAI appear to subscribe to the idea that you should be shielded from certain kinds of bad stuff, even if just expressed in words or art. Thus, you will never have in a DA game a scene like the one in TW3 where you go with Triss as a fake captive in order to extract info from the Inquisitor. Sure, that scene is hard to bear and even harder to follow through with, even though it's all her idea, but nothing in DAI is even remotely that intense, nor is the satisfaction when you finally see that bastard killed and his base go up in Triss' magical fire.
Thedas is clearly a world where such things are not unknown, thus refusing to confront the player with them with the same intensity dilutes the experience. I'm not sure whether the CD Projekt people know their storytelling better than the people at Bioware, but they apparently feel less constrained by people's possible oversensitivity and appear more likely to just tell their story.
You found that intense? I was laughing my ass off at how stupid Triss and Geralt were. The over the top scenes with the Hunt and the Crones were the exact same thing... it’s the kind on intensity one finds in high school creative writing assignments. But then, that is most dark fantasy anymore. DAI didn’t shy away from intensity. It just didn’t fling itself into blood and misery and scream “look at me! I’m dark and eddddgggyyy. Worship my grimness!”
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 19, 2019 19:10:24 GMT
I think the core problem is that some people of those who made DAI appear to subscribe to the idea that you should be shielded from certain kinds of bad stuff, even if just expressed in words or art. Thus, you will never have in a DA game a scene like the one in TW3 where you go with Triss as a fake captive in order to extract info from the Inquisitor. Sure, that scene is hard to bear and even harder to follow through with, even though it's all her idea, but nothing in DAI is even remotely that intense, nor is the satisfaction when you finally see that bastard killed and his base go up in Triss' magical fire.
Thedas is clearly a world where such things are not unknown, thus refusing to confront the player with them with the same intensity dilutes the experience. I'm not sure whether the CD Projekt people know their storytelling better than the people at Bioware, but they apparently feel less constrained by people's possible oversensitivity and appear more likely to just tell their story.
You found that intense? I was laughing my ass off at how stupid Triss and Geralt were. The over the top scenes with the Hunt and the Crones were the exact same thing... it’s the kind on intensity one finds in high school creative writing assignments. But then, that is most dark fantasy anymore. DAI didn’t shy away from intensity. It just didn’t fling itself into blood and misery and scream “look at me! I’m dark and eddddgggyyy. Worship my grimness!”That last statement fits Warhammer more than it does the Witcher, just saying. But hey, different strokes for different folks. I looked it up, and I did find it to be more intense than DAI. Not sure I would've felt comfortable going through with that route. But given what DAI's all about, a sense of discomfort would go well with the story, and I hope it's something we can experience in DA4.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 2:13:57 GMT
It's like nobody in here has ever read a fantasy book before.
"Dragon Age has torture and war in it!"
So does fucking Discworld, what's your point?
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 5:34:12 GMT
Of course, the particular tastes of the dev houses are also in play. There would be a sorting effect in the dev staffs. If you don't want to make games like an AAA dev does, you don't end up working there. Maybe you instead go to some indie outfit that will make stuff closer to the way you want to. Indie gaming is the biz. Lots of fun. Hard to make money anymore though, not sure it's a viable career path xD EDIT: Actually I was imvolved in Indie Gaming for a very brief amount of time and at the lower end of the scale ... fraud (contractors not being paid), exploitation. Maybe not. It's not nice, but it is fun, but it's not nice. Anyway I'll be interested to see what Dragon Age 4 will be like. With where they're headed it's not really a place for safe AAA gaming philosophies. And there's a new head writer now with Gaider gone? Fingers crossed
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 20, 2019 6:12:16 GMT
And there's a new head writer now with Gaider gone? Fingers crossed Trespasser was our first taste of what the writing may be like with Patrick Weekes in charge, so I would not expect a huge departure in tone from what we got there.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 11:40:15 GMT
Also one of the reasons books will always be superior as a storytelling medium is because of the comparatively low cost of producing books (as well as having very few people involved in the creation process), they'll always be less constrained and more free. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 11:43:54 GMT
Also one of the reasons books will always be superior as a storytelling medium is because of the comparatively low cost of producing books (as well as having very few people involved in the creation process), they'll always be less constrained and more free. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Embrace it. Books tell superior stories in the superior medium. Engrave it into your heart
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 12:14:46 GMT
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Embrace it. Books tell superior stories in the superior medium. Engrave it into your heart Buddy. I have a bachelor of Communication in Creative Writing. I have an Arts Honours degree in Creative Writing, where I produced a 25,000 word thesis on Young Adult fiction, under the supervision of this dude. I worked in book retail for three years, where I spoke regularly with representatives of various publishing houses. I work in my local public library system now. I have attended pitch meetings and writing festivals and writing seminars. I am facebook friends with this dude. I served on the judging panel for this thing. Being a published author has been my life's goal since I was literally in kindergarten. I do, in fact, have one measly writing credit to my name, and I can link you to that article, if you like. I got $100 for it, which is pretty good for 800 words. I laughed, not out of disrespect for books, but at how wrong you are about the process of producing one. Publishers receive literally thousands of manuscripts a year. You don't see the masses of really bad stuff because it doesn't get picked up. If you don't have a literary agent batting for you, your work will most likely go right in the trash without anyone even looking at it. If your manuscript does get picked up, your publisher will want changes, ranging from small to drastic. Whole chapters, whole characters might get cut out. You'll be asked to re-write it. Again, and again, and again. The publisher will most likely come up with the title for the published work. The publisher will select the cover artists. The stuff that eventually makes it to bookstore shelves is a tiny, tiny fraction of the work that people are actually producing. And it goes through any number of iterations before final printing. Publishing is full of constraints. Publishers don't give a shit about preserving your artistic vision, they care about what will sell. But hey, don't take my word for it. All the big names are on Twitter, you can literally just ask them. And comparing books to video games is nonsensical. Different mediums tell stories differently. Film is a visual medium, games are an interactive one. Why would you even expect them to tell stories the same way books do? It has nothing to do with how many people are involved.
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 12:20:11 GMT
Embrace it. Books tell superior stories in the superior medium. Engrave it into your heart Buddy. I have a bachelor of Communication in Creative Writing. I have an Arts Honours degree in Creative Writing, where I produced a 25,000 word thesis on Young Adult fiction, under the supervision of this dude. I worked in book retail for three years, where I spoke regularly with representatives of various publishing houses. I work in my local public library system now. I have attended pitch meetings and writing festivals and writing seminars. I am facebook friends with this dude. I served on the judging panel for this thing. Being a published author has been my life's goal since I was literally in kindergarten. I do, in fact, have one measly writing credit to my name, and I can link you to that article, if you like. I got $100 for it, which is pretty good for 800 words. I laughed, not out of disrespect for books, but at how wrong you are about the process of producing one. Publishers receive literally thousands of manuscripts a year. You don't see the masses of really bad stuff because it doesn't get picked up. If you don't have a literary agent batting for you, your work will most likely go right in the trash without anyone even looking at it. If your manuscript does get picked up, your publisher will want changes, ranging from small to drastic. Whole chapters, whole characters might get cut out. You'll be asked to re-write it. Again, and again, and again. The publisher will most likely come up with the title for the published work. The publisher will select the cover artists. The stuff that eventually makes it to bookstore shelves is a tiny, tiny fraction of the work that people are actually producing. And it goes through any number of iterations before final printing. Publishing is full of constraints. Publishers don't give a shit about preserving your artistic vision, they care about what will sell. But hey, don't take my word for it. All the big names are on Twitter, you can literally just ask them. Congratulations, because that has very little to do with what I said. And yes, $100 is really quite good for 800 words. I'm envious, because I suck at short fiction.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 12:29:07 GMT
Buddy. I have a bachelor of Communication in Creative Writing. I have an Arts Honours degree in Creative Writing, where I produced a 25,000 word thesis on Young Adult fiction, under the supervision of this dude. I worked in book retail for three years, where I spoke regularly with representatives of various publishing houses. I work in my local public library system now. I have attended pitch meetings and writing festivals and writing seminars. I am facebook friends with this dude. I served on the judging panel for this thing. Being a published author has been my life's goal since I was literally in kindergarten. I do, in fact, have one measly writing credit to my name, and I can link you to that article, if you like. I got $100 for it, which is pretty good for 800 words. I laughed, not out of disrespect for books, but at how wrong you are about the process of producing one. Publishers receive literally thousands of manuscripts a year. You don't see the masses of really bad stuff because it doesn't get picked up. If you don't have a literary agent batting for you, your work will most likely go right in the trash without anyone even looking at it. If your manuscript does get picked up, your publisher will want changes, ranging from small to drastic. Whole chapters, whole characters might get cut out. You'll be asked to re-write it. Again, and again, and again. The publisher will most likely come up with the title for the published work. The publisher will select the cover artists. The stuff that eventually makes it to bookstore shelves is a tiny, tiny fraction of the work that people are actually producing. And it goes through any number of iterations before final printing. Publishing is full of constraints. Publishers don't give a shit about preserving your artistic vision, they care about what will sell. But hey, don't take my word for it. All the big names are on Twitter, you can literally just ask them. Congratulations, because that has very little to do with what I said. And yes, $100 is really quite good for 800 words. I'm envious, because I suck at short fiction. Yeah, that first paragraph was just to make you feel like a twit for making assumptions about me. I did not appreciate the insinuation that I don't respect books. But the article wasn't fiction, if that's any consolation. I've never had any of my fiction published. The point of my post, if you had finished reading it, is that the production of novels is also a collaborative process, just like film and video games. When you read a book, you are not ingesting the unfiltered creativity of a single genius. Plus, so what if it is just written by one person? A lot of books are shit. Nothing to be smug about, if you ask me. But it's pointless to compare story-telling mediums in the first place. Books, film and video games don't tell stories in the same way, so why would you judge them on the same metric? A game doesn't need to be a good book, it needs to be a good game.
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 12:32:27 GMT
Congratulations, because that has very little to do with what I said. And yes, $100 is really quite good for 800 words. I'm envious, because I suck at short fiction. Yeah, that first paragraph was just to make you feel like a twit for making assumptions about me. I did not appreciate the insinuation that I don't respect books. But the article wasn't fiction, if that's any consolation. I've never had any of my fiction published. The point of my post, if you had finished reading it, is that the production of novels is also a collaborative process, just like film and video games. When you read a book, you are not ingesting the unfiltered creativity of a single genius. Plus, so what if it is just written by one person? A lot of books are shit. Nothing to be smug about, if you ask me. But it's pointless to compare story-telling mediums in the first place. Nooks, film and video games don't tell stories in the same way, so why would you judge them on the same metric? A game doesn't need to be a good book, it needs to be a good game. Oh I don't feel like a twit at all, because I made no assumptions about you. For someone who wants to work in the field of writing, you've misinterpreted a great deal of my posts. Let me clarify another post you've misinterpreted. I did not say writing was not a collaborative process. I did not say writing was free of constraints. I said writing has LESS (or if you want to be precise, FEWER) constraints, costs less money to produce, and is therefore more free than other processes. And if you like you are welcome to bring all your author friends onto this forum to argue that point with me, because I'll do it all damn day.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 12:35:59 GMT
Yeah, that first paragraph was just to make you feel like a twit for making assumptions about me. I did not appreciate the insinuation that I don't respect books. But the article wasn't fiction, if that's any consolation. I've never had any of my fiction published. The point of my post, if you had finished reading it, is that the production of novels is also a collaborative process, just like film and video games. When you read a book, you are not ingesting the unfiltered creativity of a single genius. Plus, so what if it is just written by one person? A lot of books are shit. Nothing to be smug about, if you ask me. But it's pointless to compare story-telling mediums in the first place. Nooks, film and video games don't tell stories in the same way, so why would you judge them on the same metric? A game doesn't need to be a good book, it needs to be a good game. Oh I don't feel like a twit at all, because I made no assumptions about you. For someone who wants to work in the field of writing, you've misinterpreted a great deal of my posts. Let me clarify another post you've misinterpreted. I did not say writing was not a collaborative process. I did not say writing was free of constraints. I said writing has LESS (or if you want to be precise, FEWER) constraints, costs less money to produce, and is therefore more free than other processes. And if you like you are welcome to bring all your author friends onto this forum to argue that point with me, because I'll do it all damn day. "I didn't literally say the words 'I assume you don't like books', I just said different words that deliberately imply the exact same thing." Come on man.
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 12:40:19 GMT
Oh I don't feel like a twit at all, because I made no assumptions about you. For someone who wants to work in the field of writing, you've misinterpreted a great deal of my posts. Let me clarify another post you've misinterpreted. I did not say writing was not a collaborative process. I did not say writing was free of constraints. I said writing has LESS (or if you want to be precise, FEWER) constraints, costs less money to produce, and is therefore more free than other processes. And if you like you are welcome to bring all your author friends onto this forum to argue that point with me, because I'll do it all damn day. "I didn't literally say the words 'I assume you don't like books', I just said different words that deliberately imply the exact same thing." Come on man. Where did I say this? I'm pretty certain I didn't imply it, although I haven't got the best memory. If you can point it out to me then I'll apologise for it. The "engrave it into your heart" line was just a whimsical thing I posted because I was feeling a bit like that. To be honest I respect you a lot for wanting to go into the field of writing. It pays like shit, you get no respect, people look at you like ... you know, "get a real job". Anyway I argue on these forums because I'm passionate about games. There's very few times there's any malice in my words. You did tick me off when you continuously misinterpreted my words in the other thread, and ignored other people who stated their opinion as fact much more than I did. But I'm over it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 12:44:41 GMT
"I didn't literally say the words 'I assume you don't like books', I just said different words that deliberately imply the exact same thing." Come on man. Where did I say this? I'm pretty certain I didn't imply it, although I haven't got the best memory. If you can point it out to me then I'll apologise for it. The "engrave it into your heart" line was just a whimsical thing I posted because I was feeling a bit like that. To be honest I respect you a lot for wanting to go into the field of writing. It pays like shit, you get no respect, people look at you like ... you know, "get a real job". Anyway I argue on these forums because I'm passionate about games. There's very few times there's any malice in my words. You did tick me off when you continuously misinterpreted my words in the other thread, and ignored other people who stated their opinion as fact much more than I did. But I'm over it. If you say it wasn't your intent, then I'll respect that. I'm impressed that you found work in games, even if it didn't last. I have ideas that I often think would work better as games, but I have no knowledge of the process or the industry.
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2019 12:58:09 GMT
Where did I say this? I'm pretty certain I didn't imply it, although I haven't got the best memory. If you can point it out to me then I'll apologise for it. The "engrave it into your heart" line was just a whimsical thing I posted because I was feeling a bit like that. To be honest I respect you a lot for wanting to go into the field of writing. It pays like shit, you get no respect, people look at you like ... you know, "get a real job". Anyway I argue on these forums because I'm passionate about games. There's very few times there's any malice in my words. You did tick me off when you continuously misinterpreted my words in the other thread, and ignored other people who stated their opinion as fact much more than I did. But I'm over it. If you say it wasn't your intent, then I'll respect that. I'm impressed that you found work in games, even if it didn't last. I have ideas that I often think would work better as games, but I have no knowledge of the process or the industry. Best of luck with it. I was roped into it for a little while by a couple of acquaintances I'd met. I quickly learned that writing stuff I don't want to write just isn't for me. Some people can do it, but eh. Be very careful if you get into the lower end of Indie Development. I don't know if it was just my experience, or if the whole industry is like that, or if it's just parts of Indie Development but there was a fair bit of drama over money. There was also a month long incident involving theft... I really like sim games. One day I think I'll make a game like Academagia, which is just a small sim filled with stats. The problem is it's just a big fat time sink and I don't know how to program
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 20, 2019 13:05:52 GMT
If you say it wasn't your intent, then I'll respect that. I'm impressed that you found work in games, even if it didn't last. I have ideas that I often think would work better as games, but I have no knowledge of the process or the industry. Best of luck with it. I was roped into it for a little while by a couple of acquaintances I'd met. I quickly learned that writing stuff I don't want to write just isn't for me. Some people can do it, but eh. Be very careful if you get into the lower end of Indie Development. I don't know if it was just my experience, or if the whole industry is like that, or if it's just parts of Indie Development but there was a fair bit of drama over money. There was also a month long incident involving theft... I really like sim games. One day I think I'll make a game like Academagia, which is just a small sim filled with stats. The problem is it's just a big fat time sink and I don't know how to program I've fiddled around with stuff like RPG Maker, but that's about the extent of it. I don't know shit about programming either. There's an institution near me that offers qualifications in game development and digital art, stuff like that, but it's expensive and time-consuming and I was never good at math in the first place.
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Wildfire
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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wildfire
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Wildfire on Feb 20, 2019 18:52:11 GMT
Haha it seems that I have the honor of currently being the only person who voted for the tone of Andromeda Not sure what it actually means in this context, but I'd like to have a serious story with some good humor to balance things out. Basically what we had in Dragon Age 2. There was nothing wrong with the tone of DAI, but I guess the bad execution kinda makes it hard to assess the tone separately. I don't want dark and gritty, because we've already seen it so many times in other games. It's so 2010.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
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geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 20, 2019 19:53:27 GMT
Haha it seems that I have the honor of currently being the only person who voted for the tone of Andromeda WHY? Why did you have to out yourself? Alright, so: to vote for Andromeda's tone means, obviously (I hope) that you prefer a tone closer to Andromeda, or perhaps Anthem from what I hear, for the next Dragon Age... independently of your opinion of how it was executed in Andromeda (or Anthem). Hope I managed to explain it clearly. I myself was one of the majority that voted for a darker tone along the lines of Origins or 2. Voted right after I first posted the thread. After having played through the first 2 games, that tone, that level of darkness and grittiness that didn't border on the absurd helped establish the story and the world, and Inquisition, to me, felt a little bit too safe, too clean. Doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad game. But the difference was certainly jarring.
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Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Andraste_Reborn
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andrastereborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 20, 2019 23:42:50 GMT
I can't vote in the poll because I don't accept the premise. I just did a whole trilogy run playing DAO/Awakening/DA2/DAI back to back to back to back and I really don't think there's a significant tone shift at any point.
I would like #The Dread Wolf Rises to maintain the tone of the three previous games - a serious plot overall with plenty of dark elements, but also a leavening of humour and the capacity for the protagonist at least try to make the world better than they found it.
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ComedicSociopathy
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delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 21, 2019 1:00:45 GMT
Here's the thing. A lot of people say they want a darker tone without actually explaining what they mean by that, which ultimately leads to this thread constantly breaking down into banal arguments because people don't actually understand what other people mean by darker tone and just assume that means grimdark rape and gore. That's probably not a fair assessment but that's the sort of thing that happens when you aren't specific about what exactly was wrong with the "lighter" tone of DAI and MEA and what exactly you want in DA4.
For instance, my specific problem with MEA's lighter tone is that IMHO its brand of quippy awkward humor over-statures the entire game and is omnipresent in Ryder and many of the squadmates and shipmate characters, with likes of Drack, Jaal and Cora being nice exceptions. Having humor that beings levity is not only natural but necessary for a good story IMHO and even games like the Witcher series have it. MEA, on the otherhand, to me just kept using the same kind of "Act immature in an serious situation" humor over and over again, and I kind of got sick of it because of the lack of diversity.
That said, MEA does have its dark moments. I can't pretend that the revelation that the Archon has been dissecting Salarians wasn't unnerving as all hell. That definitely got me, but it was unfortunately one of the few instances where that happened. And that's the real problem with that game. Having grimdark material in your game is ultimately just shock value exploitation, which isn't always a bad thing. In certain doses it can be incredibly effective in emotionally capturing the attention of the player and give them a sense of emergency, which any good game should try to do. Grimdark, edgy, mature, adult, whatever you what to call it, MEA didn't work because I ultimately didn't care what was happening in the game. Maybe having more "darker" content and narrative choices would have changed that but as is I wasn't riveted by the game and hope its tone isn't something DA4 copies.
When it comes to DAI, well, I pretty much agree with Andraste_Reborn. Did Origins have superdark moments? Sure, Branka's lover singing that song about how the darkspawn reproduce is nightmarish.The body horror in the Mage Tower is creepy. But to say that DAI doesn't feels false to me. The Red Templars are walking body horror. Both the Mage and Templar Recruitment quests have their dark twisted moments. The narrative choices of whether you let Sera, Leliana or Solas kill someone, whether you save the Iron Chargers or not, Blackwall's true identity, Cullen's struggle with addiction, the Wicked Hearts main quest, the Inquisitor slowly dying and losing their arm, I could go on. And lets not pretend that DAO didn't have a light moments and was a grimdark horrorfest that was weighty and self-important about everything. I remember dorky Alistair, dick joke making Oghren, and grandmother Wynne.
So, yeah, I think MEA wasn't that effective because it didn't have emotional stakes that were effective for me and I think DAI was fine more or less. Honestly, if that game had a darker filter and was more brown and washed out like Origins I don't think people would complain as much. Of course, all this whining is subjective. To each their own. This is just my opinion on the matter.
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 21, 2019 1:07:55 GMT
For instance, my specific problem with MEA's lighter tone is that IMHO its brand of quippy awkward humor over-statures the entire game and is omnipresent in Ryder and many of the squadmates and shipmate characters, with likes of Drack, Jaal and Cora being nice exceptions. Having humor that beings levity is not only natural but necessary for a good story IMHO and even games like the Witcher series have it. MEA, on the otherhand, to me just kept using the same kind of "Act immature in an serious situation" humor over and over again, and I kind of got sick of it because of the lack of diversity. While I agree with most of your post, I have to disagree with this part in the sense that only those three were exceptions. While yes I'd say some were as you describe, like Liam and PeeBee, I'd say they are the exceptions rather than the ones you listed. Ryder is either depending how you play them.
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colfoley
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colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Feb 21, 2019 1:17:29 GMT
Here's the thing. A lot of people say they want a darker tone without actually explaining what they mean by that, which ultimately leads to this thread constantly breaking down into banal arguments because people don't actually understand what other people mean by darker tone and just assume that means grimdark rape and gore. That's probably not a fair assessment but that's the sort of thing that happens when you aren't specific about what exactly was wrong with the "lighter" tone of DAI and MEA and what exactly you want in DA4. For instance, my specific problem with MEA's lighter tone is that IMHO its brand of quippy awkward humor over-statures the entire game and is omnipresent in Ryder and many of the squadmates and shipmate characters, with likes of Drack, Jaal and Cora being nice exceptions. Having humor that beings levity is not only natural but necessary for a good story IMHO and even games like the Witcher series have it. MEA, on the otherhand, to me just kept using the same kind of "Act immature in an serious situation" humor over and over again, and I kind of got sick of it because of the lack of diversity. That said, MEA does have its dark moments. I can't pretend that the revelation that the Archon has been dissecting Salarians wasn't unnerving as all hell. That definitely got me, but it was unfortunately one of the few instances where that happened. And that's the real problem with that game. Having grimdark material in your game is ultimately just shock value exploitation, which isn't always a bad thing. In certain doses it can be incredibly effective in emotionally capturing the attention of the player and give them a sense of emergency, which any good game should try to do. Grimdark, edgy, mature, adult, whatever you what to call it, MEA didn't work because I ultimately didn't care what was happening in the game. Maybe having more "darker" content and narrative choices would have changed that but as is I wasn't riveted by the game and hope its tone isn't something DA4 copies. When it comes to DAI, well, I pretty much agree with Andraste_Reborn. Did Origins have superdark moments? Sure, Branka's lover singing that song about how the darkspawn reproduce is nightmarish.The body horror in the Mage Tower is creepy. But to say that DAI doesn't feels false to me. The Red Templars are walking body horror. Both the Mage and Templar Recruitment quests have their dark twisted moments. The narrative choices of whether you let Sera, Leliana or Solas kill someone, whether you save the Iron Chargers or not, Blackwall's true identity, Cullen's struggle with addiction, the Wicked Hearts main quest, the Inquisitor slowly dying and losing their arm, I could go on. And lets not pretend that DAO didn't have a light moments and was a grimdark horrorfest that was weighty and self-important about everything. I remember dorky Alistair, dick joke making Oghren, and grandmother Wynne. So, yeah, I think MEA wasn't that effective because it didn't have emotional stakes that were effective for me and I think DAI was fine more or less. Honestly, if that game had a darker filter and was more brown and washed out like Origins I don't think people would complain as much. Of course, all this whining is subjective. To each their own. This is just my opinion on the matter. I don't know why but the line "Liam Hold me!" went through my head while reading this. I don't know why and its been quite an interesting revelation for me but I guess I do like humor that makes light of serious situations and breaks the tension as it were. Its something that I do often myself IRL when I use sarcasm to poke fun at any serious situation. I mean I don't know if anyone watches Friends but my sense of humor sometimes comes off as Chandleresque...but bottom line I guess by and large I don't mind the characters in Andromeda being funny in a serious situation, especially since a lot of that time that humor could clearly be seen as a coping mechanism. And not that I role play myself in these games but I almost always give my characters a sense of humor and appreciate BioWare's particular brand of sarcasm. That being said I do almost prefer the more subtle sense of humor of the Inquisitor over the very agressive Hawke or Ryder approach.
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