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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 21, 2019 1:18:03 GMT
For instance, my specific problem with MEA's lighter tone is that IMHO its brand of quippy awkward humor over-statures the entire game and is omnipresent in Ryder and many of the squadmates and shipmate characters, with likes of Drack, Jaal and Cora being nice exceptions. Having humor that beings levity is not only natural but necessary for a good story IMHO and even games like the Witcher series have it. MEA, on the otherhand, to me just kept using the same kind of "Act immature in an serious situation" humor over and over again, and I kind of got sick of it because of the lack of diversity. While I agree with most of your post, I have to disagree with this part in the sense that only those three were exceptions. While yes I'd say some were as you describe, like Liam and PeeBee, I'd say they are the exceptions rather than the ones you listed. Ryder is either depending how you play them. That's fair, but Ryder's autodialogue forces him or her to make jokes like "I'll turn this car right around if you two don't behave," which to me takes away our player's agency, and forces us to accept and partake in a certain tone that just doesn't work for everyone's idea of Ryder.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 21, 2019 1:23:10 GMT
While I agree with most of your post, I have to disagree with this part in the sense that only those three were exceptions. While yes I'd say some were as you describe, like Liam and PeeBee, I'd say they are the exceptions rather than the ones you listed. Ryder is either depending how you play them. That's fair, but Ryder's autodialogue forces him or her to make jokes like "I'll turn this car right around if you two don't behave," which to me takes away our player's agency, and forces us to accept and partake in a certain tone that just doesn't work for everyone's idea of Ryder. Sure I agree there are a few moments like that, though they are far from the worst offender. Hawke and Shepard are worse than Ryder in that issue easily. Like you said, it's the auto dialogue. But with squadmates and crew, I think Kallo, Lexi, Suvi, and Vetra are more like the three you listed then like PeeBee and Liam. Gil is interesting since he seems more like those two, but that's established as a kind of defense mechanism he uses to deal with things.
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Post by mugwump on Feb 21, 2019 9:15:51 GMT
I think the core problem is that some people of those who made DAI appear to subscribe to the idea that you should be shielded from certain kinds of bad stuff, even if just expressed in words or art. Thus, you will never have in a DA game a scene like the one in TW3 where you go with Triss as a fake captive in order to extract info from the Inquisitor. Sure, that scene is hard to bear and even harder to follow through with, even though it's all her idea, but nothing in DAI is even remotely that intense, nor is the satisfaction when you finally see that bastard killed and his base go up in Triss' magical fire.
Thedas is clearly a world where such things are not unknown, thus refusing to confront the player with them with the same intensity dilutes the experience. I'm not sure whether the CD Projekt people know their storytelling better than the people at Bioware, but they apparently feel less constrained by people's possible oversensitivity and appear more likely to just tell their story.
You found that intense? I was laughing my ass off at how stupid Triss and Geralt were. The over the top scenes with the Hunt and the Crones were the exact same thing... it’s the kind on intensity one finds in high school creative writing assignments. But then, that is most dark fantasy anymore. DAI didn’t shy away from intensity. It just didn’t fling itself into blood and misery and scream “look at me! I’m dark and eddddgggyyy. Worship my grimness!” That you don't care for dark fantasy doesn't disallow the fact that it can be both good and bad Kabraxal and it's equally true that the Wild Hunt remains a sensational videogame. As for your attempts to second guess CDPR's motivations for presenting things so, I (as a teacher) find your reasoning to be childish in the extreme. Ironic, but not altogether unexpected! As for Inquisition, and the IP more generally, I would argue that Bioware present things well enough. They - as is the case with CDPR - just have their own voice.
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Post by mugwump on Feb 21, 2019 9:18:26 GMT
And, to answer the question, a game embracing the earthy approach of Origins sounds delicious to me.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 21, 2019 9:21:01 GMT
High fantasy will always be more delicious to me than dark fantasy. Dark fantasy only works for literature and incredibly stylized visual media. But for an action RPG, I vastly prefer high fantasy, with a dash of dark fantasy.
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Post by mugwump on Feb 21, 2019 9:34:33 GMT
High fantasy will always be more delicious to me than dark fantasy. Dark fantasy only works for literature and incredibly stylized visual media. But for an action RPG, I vastly prefer high fantasy, with a dash of dark fantasy. DA:O managed to do both well enough. A return to that, with a smattering of the fantastical (thinking DAI fade) could work wonderfully well.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 21, 2019 10:56:00 GMT
I found the auto dialogue in Andromeda very off-putting, not because of the content but because my character was saying things without my selecting then, which made them feel less like my character.
It felt like there was way more of it than previous games (though i haven't played me3 in a good while so maybe I'm forgetting how bad it was)
I hope there a minimum of auto dialogue in da4, if any.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 21, 2019 13:38:07 GMT
I remember dorky Alistair, dick joke making Oghren, and grandmother Wynne. At the time I disliked Oghren for being gross, which I didn't really find humorous. These days, however, I'd rather appreciate another Oghren, just to get a break from the boring, sanitized language.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 21, 2019 14:05:43 GMT
I remember dorky Alistair, dick joke making Oghren, and grandmother Wynne. At the time I disliked Oghren for being gross, which I didn't really find humorous. These days, however, I'd rather appreciate another Oghren, just to get a break from the boring, sanitized language. I think Dragon Age has at least been consistent about having crass characters, with Isabela in DA2 and Sera DAI.
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 21, 2019 14:27:18 GMT
At the time I disliked Oghren for being gross, which I didn't really find humorous. These days, however, I'd rather appreciate another Oghren, just to get a break from the boring, sanitized language. I think Dragon Age has at least been consistent about having crass characters, with Isabela in DA2 and Sera DAI. Sheryl Chee wrote both Oghren and Isabela, now that you mention it. I think she has a way to make these types of characters work. I really hope she writes another such character in DA4. It will likely be amazing.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 21, 2019 18:21:10 GMT
I'm kind of agnostic on tone, myself. If Bio went full Legends of Tomorrow in some future game, I'd probably like it. (Not a great fit for DA4, though.)
Edit: come to think of it, Sara Lance would fit nicely into most Bio games.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 21, 2019 18:29:42 GMT
I'm kind of agnostic on tone, myself. If Bio went full Legends of Tomorrow in some future game, I'd probably like it. (Not a great fit for DA4, though.) Edit: come to think of it, Sara Lance would fit nicely into most Bio games. i personally think Arrow wouldnt be bad to imitate tone wise The bits of Legends ive seen makes it look like a very weird show.
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Post by Kabraxal on Feb 21, 2019 18:32:47 GMT
You found that intense? I was laughing my ass off at how stupid Triss and Geralt were. The over the top scenes with the Hunt and the Crones were the exact same thing... it’s the kind on intensity one finds in high school creative writing assignments. But then, that is most dark fantasy anymore. DAI didn’t shy away from intensity. It just didn’t fling itself into blood and misery and scream “look at me! I’m dark and eddddgggyyy. Worship my grimness!” That you don't care for dark fantasy doesn't disallow the fact that it can be both good and bad Kabraxal and it's equally true that the Wild Hunt remains a sensational videogame. As for your attempts to second guess CDPR's motivations for presenting things so, I (as a teacher) find your reasoning to be childish in the extreme. Ironic, but not altogether unexpected! As for Inquisition, and the IP more generally, I would argue that Bioware present things well enough. They - as is the case with CDPR - just have their own voice. I am supposed to be impressed you are a teacher? Most teachers are laughably bad. And if you like the cliches abound in high school quality writing, go ahead. Just don’t tell me it’s sensational.
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Post by mugwump on Feb 21, 2019 18:44:31 GMT
That you don't care for dark fantasy doesn't disallow the fact that it can be both good and bad Kabraxal and it's equally true that the Wild Hunt remains a sensational videogame. As for your attempts to second guess CDPR's motivations for presenting things so, I (as a teacher) find your reasoning to be childish in the extreme. Ironic, but not altogether unexpected! As for Inquisition, and the IP more generally, I would argue that Bioware present things well enough. They - as is the case with CDPR - just have their own voice. I am supposed to be impressed you are a teacher? Most teachers are laughably bad. And if you like the cliches abound in high school quality writing, go ahead. Just don’t tell me it’s sensational. Impressing you isn't high on my list of priorities Kabraxal, I just wanted to underline the irony of your using the logic of a child in attempting to equate 'dark' to juvenile'.
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Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 21, 2019 18:56:25 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 21, 2019 20:30:38 GMT
The bits of Legends ive seen makes it look like a very weird show. Well, the show has featured the team joining up with J.R.R. Tolkien during WWI to find a vial of Jesus Christ's blood in order to destroy the spear which pierced Christ on the cross, accidentally causing the Vikings to conquer North America by sending a Furby a thousand years back in time, and preventing an evil unicorn from turning Woodstock into a bloodbath. So, yeah, kinda weird.
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 21, 2019 20:33:01 GMT
The bits of Legends ive seen makes it look like a very weird show. Well, the show has featured the team joining up with J.R.R. Tolkien during WWI to find a vial of Jesus Christ's blood in order to destroy the spear which pierced Christ on the cross, accidentally causing the Vikings to conquer North America by sending a Furby a thousand years back in time, and preventing an evil unicorn from turning Woodstock into a bloodbath. So, yeah, kinda weird. Well, now I want to watch it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 21, 2019 20:38:27 GMT
The bits of Legends ive seen makes it look like a very weird show. Well, the show has featured the team joining up with J.R.R. Tolkien during WWI to find a vial of Jesus Christ's blood in order to destroy the spear which pierced Christ on the cross, accidentally causing the Vikings to conquer North America by sending a Furby a thousand years back in time, and preventing an evil unicorn from turning Woodstock into a bloodbath. So, yeah, kinda weird.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 21, 2019 20:47:41 GMT
Best comment chain ever!
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: DuncanOToole
XBL Gamertag: TheHudson
PSN: DuncanOToole
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Post by Hudson on Feb 24, 2019 18:35:44 GMT
Hmm this might not relate quite as much to tone and feel. but I would like the more conservative design choices of armor and weapons from DAO back. Foregoing the outlandish ones from DAII and DAI. I think a look at... Pillars of Eternity's designs wouldn't be a bad idea. and I do feel that while the maturity never went away, the tone/intent of the games did shift from a gritty-esque fantasy setting to a High Fantasy forgotten realms style. Which I am not quite a fan of.
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 24, 2019 20:03:28 GMT
Hmm this might not relate quite as much to tone and feel. but I would like the more conservative design choices of armor and weapons from DAO back. Foregoing the outlandish ones from DAII and DAI. I think a look at... Pillars of Eternity's designs wouldn't be a bad idea. and I do feel that while the maturity never went away, the tone/intent of the games did shift from a gritty-esque fantasy setting to a High Fantasy forgotten realms style. Which I am not quite a fan of. I think the armor styles and general aesthetic for the most prevalent factions and nations have already been decided on since the development of DA2 or shortly after. I don't think they'll be changing that anytime soon. As for the tone... different strokes for different folks. I think the more high-fantasy setting has always been something they've been aiming for, with a darker spin on it.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 24, 2019 23:02:17 GMT
<snip> Honestly, if that game had a darker filter and was more brown and washed out like Origins I don't think people would complain as much. Of course, all this whining is subjective. To each their own. This is just my opinion on the matter. Agreed wholeheartedly. A lot of DAO's tone was conveyed via a more muted palette and subtle lighting. They made a lot of changes to the lighting engine between DAO and DA2, which gave it higher contrast, deeper shadows (and also made it possible for them to support darker skin tones). They also used higher-contrast lighting in ME2 along with some very different overall tonalities to give that game a much different feel (which I personally don't really like - I find I have to tweak the settings - including those of my monitor - quite a bit in order to see things properly.) Enter DAI with its huge maps, landscape varieties, crafting material hues, and natural scenery all using a much broader palette, and you have a world that just looks a lot brighter and lighter in tone. I don't know how much the move to Frostbite influenced those changes. I voted for the grayer tone of DAO/DA2. I'd be quite content with a more muted palette and art styles as well.
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 24, 2019 23:24:12 GMT
<snip> Honestly, if that game had a darker filter and was more brown and washed out like Origins I don't think people would complain as much. Of course, all this whining is subjective. To each their own. This is just my opinion on the matter. Agreed wholeheartedly. A lot of DAO's tone was conveyed via a more muted palette and subtle lighting. They made a lot of changes to the lighting engine between DAO and DA2, which gave it higher contrast, deeper shadows (and also made it possible for them to support darker skin tones). They also used higher-contrast lighting in ME2 along with some very different overall tonalities to give that game a much different feel (which I personally don't really like - I find I have to tweak the settings - including those of my monitor - quite a bit in order to see things properly.) Enter DAI with its huge maps, landscape varieties, crafting material hues, and natural scenery all using a much broader palette, and you have a world that just looks a lot brighter and lighter in tone. I don't know how much the move to Frostbite influenced those changes. I voted for the grayer tone of DAO/DA2. I'd be quite content with a more muted palette and art styles as well. Perhaps DAI's tone may have been influenced by more vibrant graphics. I personally disagree, as I feel like there's a disconnect between the narrative set by the game and the actual gameplay, which led to DAI feeling too clean for my tastes. And I dig the current art style, so I'd be sad to see it go. A darker palette may be coming if Minrathous features in DA4 (dunno about muted, though).
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 25, 2019 0:11:43 GMT
Really? That is your argument? "There are dead bodies around"? That doesn't mean anything. And I believe what really makes DAI too light hearted is that the Inquisitor rarely can do anything questionable. I can think of maybe two exceptions, but that's it. The most pragmatic Inquisitor still is a cute puppy compared to a pragmatic HoF. I would suggest that maybe the reason why the Inquisitor's options were more limited is more due to Inky's role and status, instead of because the game was "sanitized" (as others have suggested). I always felt that the Inquisitor (and the Inquisition itself) had a lot to prove to the general public in order to gain their cooperation and support. Nobody much cared (if they even knew) if the Warden nicked a few trinkets, visited the brothel, or collected reagents for some wayward mages. The GW as a whole were not particularly well-regarded, recruited members of questionable character, and had been accused of high treason. Hawke was independent of any organization. For story reasons, it was important for Inky to gain and maintain the trust and support of Cassandra and Leliana. That wouldn't work out so well if Inky was engaging in dirty deeds done dirt cheap.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 25, 2019 0:17:32 GMT
Really? That is your argument? "There are dead bodies around"? That doesn't mean anything. And I believe what really makes DAI too light hearted is that the Inquisitor rarely can do anything questionable. I can think of maybe two exceptions, but that's it. The most pragmatic Inquisitor still is a cute puppy compared to a pragmatic HoF. I would suggest that maybe the reason why the Inquisitor's options were more limited is more due to Inky's role and status, instead of because the game was "sanitized" (as others have suggested). I always felt that the Inquisitor (and the Inquisition itself) had a lot to prove to the general public in order to gain their cooperation and support. Nobody much cared (if they even knew) if the Warden nicked a few trinkets, visited the brothel, or collected reagents for some wayward mages. The GW as a whole were not particularly well-regarded, recruited members of questionable character, and had been accused of high treason. Hawke was independent of any organization. For story reasons, it was important for Inky to gain and maintain the trust and support of Cassandra and Leliana. That wouldn't work out so well if Inky was engaging in dirty deeds done dirt cheap. Very true. Not to mention that s/he is "the Herald of Andraste", so there are expectations.
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