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Post by ironsheik619 on Feb 28, 2019 11:15:12 GMT
So do we know how the sentinel elves view the player dalish elf as? In my playthrough, they called my character a shem, same as what you would call a human. Was this some sort of bug or glitch? It seems rather odd that they don't view the player character as an elf like them?
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Post by Iddy on Feb 28, 2019 11:20:53 GMT
All I know is that they need to lighten up and try to live a little
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 28, 2019 11:23:58 GMT
So do we know how the sentinel elves view the player dalish elf as? In my playthrough, they called my character a shem, same as what you would call a human. Was this some sort of bug or glitch? It seems rather odd that they don't view the player character as an elf like them? "Shemlen" and its shortening "shem" is "quick children," because they're mortal. That modern day elves use it as a slur for humans is a bit silly, since they are now also "quick children." It's not inaccurate for ancient elves to use it for modern elves. The player is not an elf "like them." Even Solas makes clear that he doesn't see the elf Inquisitor the same as him, even to a romanced PC. He basically looks at everyone like they're walking lobotomy victims because they've been cut off from the Fade.
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Post by ironsheik619 on Feb 28, 2019 13:00:37 GMT
So do we know how the sentinel elves view the player dalish elf as? In my playthrough, they called my character a shem, same as what you would call a human. Was this some sort of bug or glitch? It seems rather odd that they don't view the player character as an elf like them? "Shemlen" and its shortening "shem" is "quick children," because they're mortal. That modern day elves use it as a slur for humans is a bit silly, since they are now also "quick children." It's not inaccurate for ancient elves to use it for modern elves. The player is not an elf "like them." Even Solas makes clear that he doesn't see the elf Inquisitor the same as him, even to a romanced PC. He basically looks at everyone like they're walking lobotomy victims because they've been cut off from the Fade. So is my character an elf then or not by their standards?
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Post by Iddy on Feb 28, 2019 13:59:34 GMT
"Shemlen" and its shortening "shem" is "quick children," because they're mortal. That modern day elves use it as a slur for humans is a bit silly, since they are now also "quick children." It's not inaccurate for ancient elves to use it for modern elves. The player is not an elf "like them." Even Solas makes clear that he doesn't see the elf Inquisitor the same as him, even to a romanced PC. He basically looks at everyone like they're walking lobotomy victims because they've been cut off from the Fade. So is my character an elf then or not by their standards? An elf, sure. Otherwise Solas wouldn't make all those efforts to reconnect Sera to her elfiness. Just... not the same kind of elf.
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Post by ironsheik619 on Feb 28, 2019 14:24:27 GMT
So is my character an elf then or not by their standards? An elf, sure. Otherwise Solas wouldn't make all those efforts to reconnect Sera to her elfiness. Just... not the same kind of elf. But I bet they would be pissed if my character wore their sentinel plate right? Since my character is not the same elf?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 28, 2019 14:26:35 GMT
So is my character an elf then or not by their standards? It's more like a condescending "Isn't he cute for thinking he's an elf? *pats head*" type of thing. Essentially, your PC may look like an elf because you share similar genetic traits, but to them you are so far removed from what it is to truly BE an elf that you may as well not be one at all. I wouldn't be too annoyed, though. Many Dalish have a similar attitude about city elves, which is demonstrated in DAO. But I bet they would be pissed if my character wore their sentinel plate right? Since my character is not the same elf? Hard to say. I dunno if "pissed" is the correct attitude. Perhaps they might find it amusing.
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Post by ironsheik619 on Feb 28, 2019 14:37:38 GMT
So is my character an elf then or not by their standards? It's more like a condescending "Isn't he cute for thinking he's an elf? *pats head*" type of thing. Essentially, your PC may look like an elf because you share similar genetic traits, but to them you are so far removed from what it is to truly BE an elf that you may as well not be one at all. I wouldn't be too annoyed, though. Many Dalish have a similar attitude about city elves, which is demonstrated in DAO. But I bet they would be pissed if my character wore their sentinel plate right? Since my character is not the same elf? Hard to say. I dunno if "pissed" is the correct attitude. Perhaps they might find it amusing. Amused in what sense? I take it not more amusing if a human wore it right? And should the PC be proud of wearing this armor at all? Since I heard dalish are all about "embracing" the culture of their ancestors.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 28, 2019 15:22:00 GMT
I wouldn't be too annoyed, though. Many Dalish have a similar attitude about city elves, which is demonstrated in DAO. The meeting between Abelas and Velanna would result in some karmic justice.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 28, 2019 18:09:30 GMT
Amused in what sense? I take it not more amusing if a human wore it right? And should the PC be proud of wearing this armor at all? Since I heard dalish are all about "embracing" the culture of their ancestors. Amusing in that condescending sense I mentioned previously. As for your other question, you can do anything with roleplay. My issue with it* is that I don't see how/why the Inquisitor would have access to the armor at all unless they took a set from a sentinel's corpse. * Not for you, but how I would look at it for my own play.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 28, 2019 19:26:13 GMT
So is my character an elf then or not by their standards? No. You’re the shadow of an elf.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 28, 2019 21:08:40 GMT
Abelas makes it quite clear. The Dalish are "Shadows wearing vallaslin". He also quite clearly states "You are not my people". He does not recognise the PC as one of their own but he does recognise Solas as elvhen. This does actually beg the question as to how he knows the difference. Initially it is must by looking at them as at that point Solas has not said anything to him. Or do they have some sort of latent mental connection?
Solas also has no vallaslin whereas all the sentinels do. Now we know from Trespasser that most of the ancient elves would have been marked as followers of one god or another, except those who supported Fen'Harel. This could be why Abelas is okay with him, whereas he might have been antagonistic to an ancient elf follower of one of the other gods. Alternatively he did actually recognise Solas for who he really was but chose not to reveal it.
As for sentinel plate, we only get this after the Temple of Mythal, so I assume it was taken from one of the corpses. If we have made our own version from a template we get elsewhere, I don't think the game recognises this so neither would the sentinels. If the sentinels did recognise you wearing their armour, the response would probably be the same as seeing a Dalish wearing vallaslin; thinly veiled contempt.
It is worth noting that Flemeth/Mythal has a totally different attitude towards a Dalish PC: "You do the people proud". Which is amusing if you think about it considering how her priesthood regard them. Then again, apparently she didn't choose to make them aware of her existence. She probably realised it would blow their minds to have Mythal turning up in the body of a human.
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Post by ironsheik619 on Feb 28, 2019 22:49:07 GMT
Abelas makes it quite clear. The Dalish are "Shadows wearing vallaslin". He also quite clearly states "You are not my people". He does not recognise the PC as one of their own but he does recognise Solas as elvhen. This does actually beg the question as to how he knows the difference. Initially it is must by looking at them as at that point Solas has not said anything to him. Or do they have some sort of latent mental connection?
Solas also has no vallaslin whereas all the sentinels do. Now we know from Trespasser that most of the ancient elves would have been marked as followers of one god or another, except those who supported Fen'Harel. This could be why Abelas is okay with him, whereas he might have been antagonistic to an ancient elf follower of one of the other gods. Alternatively he did actually recognise Solas for who he really was but chose not to reveal it.
As for sentinel plate, we only get this after the Temple of Mythal, so I assume it was taken from one of the corpses. If we have made our own version from a template we get elsewhere, I don't think the game recognises this so neither would the sentinels. If the sentinels did recognise you wearing their armour, the response would probably be the same as seeing a Dalish wearing vallaslin; thinly veiled contempt.
It is worth noting that Flemeth/Mythal has a totally different attitude towards a Dalish PC: "You do the people proud". Which is amusing if you think about it considering how her priesthood regard them. Then again, apparently she didn't choose to make them aware of her existence. She probably realised it would blow their minds to have Mythal turning up in the body of a human.
Ah. So a couple of followups. 1) What would the dalish pc opinion be as to wearing this armor? Is it justified for the modern dalish to wear it as some sort of symbol of pride since the sentinels are their ancestors? Would it be justified for them to wear it based on pride for the old ways? 2) Is the armor (lorewise) molded for elves only? I noticed it looks unique and made in the vision of elvish sleek anatomy and physiology build. It looks better on elves than non elf.
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Post by ironsheik619 on Feb 28, 2019 22:51:47 GMT
Amused in what sense? I take it not more amusing if a human wore it right? And should the PC be proud of wearing this armor at all? Since I heard dalish are all about "embracing" the culture of their ancestors. Amusing in that condescending sense I mentioned previously. As for your other question, you can do anything with roleplay. My issue with it* is that I don't see how/why the Inquisitor would have access to the armor at all unless they took a set from a sentinel's corpse. * Not for you, but how I would look at it for my own play. I'm kind of surprised that the armor is not elf restricted because based on the general shape and aesthetics, based on how it looks, it appears only as a perfect fit for only elves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 1, 2019 19:47:40 GMT
1) What would the dalish pc opinion be as to wearing this armor? Is it justified for the modern dalish to wear it as some sort of symbol of pride since the sentinels are their ancestors? Would it be justified for them to wear it based on pride for the old ways? I suppose it would depend on how the Dalish PC felt after being rejected by Abelas. When my Dalish mage took the Knight Enchanter specialisation and Solas told him how it was based on the Arcane Warrior and how respected they had been among the ancient elves, my mage felt glad he had opted for it. So using sentinel armour could be regarded in the same way, honouring the ancestors regardless of Abelas' words. As I point out above, Flemeth/Mythal praised my PC as one of the People and since she outranks Abelas, he was happy to take her endorsement as justification for continuing to honour the old ways. All my Dalish PCs made a point of collecting as many items that were attributed to the elves as possible, particularly those that were specifically identified as being from ancient times, and kept them even when they no longer used them, or could not use them, in order to pass them on at the next Arlathven. (Me role playing that they would think it sacrilege to sell them rather than keeping them for the use of the Dalish generally). My personal chest was stashed full of such items by the end, some only useable by elves but others that seemed useable by anyone despite their origins, for example the shield from the Temple of Dirthamen. I'd also note that Cilian, the Dalish Arcane Warrior from multi-player, uses sentinel armour, which he presumably found at the same shrine he discovered and studied the ancient secrets of the order. So the Dalish PC wouldn't be the only modern elf using such armour. To be honest, given it is clearly crafted for elven use and is quality workmanship, any Dalish would be foolish to pass it up regardless of where it came from. The Dalish actually spend much effort in exploring old ruins specifically to find items from their ancestors that they can recover and use.
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Post by Blaze on Mar 5, 2019 16:37:21 GMT
the sentinels don't respect the dalish, or at least abelas doesn't. he specifically says that "they are not my people", i believe the reason is that he finds their ways to be a divination of what being an elf is about, likely since we now know they are wrong. abelas calls the dalish inquisitor "shem" because he doesn't see them as a real elf, i guess being a leader of a "human" organization (i know the inquisition is not of specific race, but many view it as such)
it's ironic really, that many of the dalish often refer to themselves as "true elves", yet to ancient elves like abelas or fen'harel the dalish are less elves than city elves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 5, 2019 16:55:09 GMT
it's ironic really, that many of the dalish often refer to themselves as "true elves", yet to ancient elves like abelas or fen'harel the dalish are less elves than city elves. Correction, Fen'Harel and Abelas regard all modern elves the same whether Dalish or city elves. Which is odd if you think about it because who do they think modern elves are descended from? Also for some reason the Crossroads recognise modern elves as elves even elves like Sera who don't even want to be regarded as elves. Flemeth/Mythal recognises the Dalish Inquisitor as one of the People and also OGB Kieran can detect their blood is "old" and different from other races. So may be it is Fen'Harel and Abelas who have got it wrong.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 5, 2019 17:15:18 GMT
Correction, Fen'Harel and Abelas regard all modern elves the same whether Dalish or city elves. Which is odd if you think about it because who do they think modern elves are descended from? Also for some reason the Crossroads recognise modern elves as elves even elves like Sera who don't even want to be regarded as elves. Flemeth/Mythal recognises the Dalish Inquisitor as one of the People and also OGB Kieran can detect their blood is "old" and different from other races. So may be it is Fen'Harel and Abelas who have got it wrong. It's not odd at all. They're being elitist dicks. Also, it seems clear that the issue is one of fade connection. Modern elves are so divorced from what it was to live as an elf back then that they basically regard them as a shadow of what true elves are. They're accurate, but don't have to be jerks about it. They're the same genetically, which accounts for the blood. That has nothing to do with Fen'Harel and Abelas's views, which are based on culture. The crossroads doesn't have the mind to be elitist and is recognizing the blood. As far as Flemeth, well that just goes to not every person having the same views.
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Post by Blaze on Mar 5, 2019 17:24:08 GMT
it's ironic really, that many of the dalish often refer to themselves as "true elves", yet to ancient elves like abelas or fen'harel the dalish are less elves than city elves. Correction, Fen'Harel and Abelas regard all modern elves the same whether Dalish or city elves. Which is odd if you think about it because who do they think modern elves are descended from? Also for some reason the Crossroads recognise modern elves as elves even elves like Sera who don't even want to be regarded as elves. Flemeth/Mythal recognises the Dalish Inquisitor as one of the People and also OGB Kieran can detect their blood is "old" and different from other races. So may be it is Fen'Harel and Abelas who have got it wrong. nope. fen'harel recruit city elves to his cause, as part of his desire to restore the world of the elves, he is doing it for them. also listen when asking solas about city elves what his response. also listen to his conversations with sera, he clearly tries to recruit her, but end up deeming she is more human than an elf and give up. the dalish however, he clearly have an issue with them, because according to him, they are wrong and refuse to listen or accept his knowledge. their ways are not the ways of the elves, at least not the way he sees it. abelas is the same in that aspect, he says that the "the ones we see in the forest, shadows wearing vallaslin" are not his people, clearly he refers to the dalish and not city elves. also when solas says there are others who yet linger and abelas says "others like you?" he this time refer to city elves and when solas respond "such as i" he seem to concede his point. as for mythal, it's a different matter, she is a respectable individual that doesn't treat people like they are beneath her. your examples of elven blood being recognised by different sources is not relevant, of course fen'harel knows the salish are elves by blood, his issue, and the reason he thnik they are less elves, are with their ways.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 5, 2019 18:13:47 GMT
Correction, Fen'Harel and Abelas regard all modern elves the same whether Dalish or city elves. Which is odd if you think about it because who do they think modern elves are descended from? Also for some reason the Crossroads recognise modern elves as elves even elves like Sera who don't even want to be regarded as elves. Flemeth/Mythal recognises the Dalish Inquisitor as one of the People and also OGB Kieran can detect their blood is "old" and different from other races. So may be it is Fen'Harel and Abelas who have got it wrong. It's not odd at all. They're being elitist dicks. Also, it seems clear that the issue is one of fade connection. Modern elves are so divorced from what it was to live as an elf back then that they basically regard them as a shadow of what true elves are. They're accurate, but don't have to be jerks about it. They're the same genetically, which accounts for the blood. That has nothing to do with Fen'Harel and Abelas's views, which are based on culture. The crossroads doesn't have the mind to be elitist and is recognizing the blood. As far as Flemeth, well that just goes to not every person having the same views. Abelas' view is understandable, but Solas' is kind of hilarious since it's his fault modern elves are "shadows".
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 5, 2019 18:30:31 GMT
That has nothing to do with Fen'Harel and Abelas's views, which are based on cultureI'd say Dalish culture is not so very different from that of the ancient elves. Just because they think Fen'Harel is the enemy doesn't make their culture that different from that of the ancient ones. Trespasser confirms that those who supported the Evanuris were ordered to think that way about him and it is clear that the Dalish got their instruction handed down to them from the priesthood of the other elven gods. What was surprising to me about the revelations in DAI and its associated DLC was just how much the Dalish actually got right. However, you are right in identifying the lack of Fade connection as being a significant factor. Does that mean the sentinels were immune to its effects? That is something I was not quite clear on. If they were trapped this side of the Veil, wouldn't they have been affected in exactly the same way? So possibly it is the fact that modern elves are many generations down the line living on this side of the Veil, whereas the sentinels just went into uthenera but didn't breed at all; hence Abelas saying their numbers have diminished overtime. nope. fen'harel recruit city elves to his cause, as part of his desire to restore the world of the elves, he is doing it for them. also listen when asking solas about city elves what his response. also listen to his conversations with sera, he clearly tries to recruit her, but end up deeming she is more human than an elf and give up I don't think this is the case. He killed Felassan for helping Briala, a city elf, when he could just have told him to sign her up. Just because he wants to recruit them to do his dirty work for him doesn't mean he is actually doing what he is doing for their sake. In Trespasser it came across to me that the people he is trying to save are other "elvhen" like Abelas. He even confirms to Abelas that there are other elves like him out there (he is definitely not talking about modern city elves). To be honest I think his conversations with Sera are more a case of him confirming in his own mind that modern elves are too far removed to help and his actions need to be reversed.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 5, 2019 18:42:48 GMT
I'd say Dalish culture is not so very different from that of the ancient elves. Just because they think Fen'Harel is the enemy doesn't make their culture that different from that of the ancient ones. Trespasser confirms that those who supported the Evanuris were ordered to think that way about him and it is clear that the Dalish got their instruction handed down to them from the priesthood of the other elven gods. What was surprising to me about the revelations in DAI and its associated DLC was just how much the Dalish actually got right. However, you are right in identifying the lack of Fade connection as being a significant factor. Does that mean the sentinels were immune to its effects? That is something I was not quite clear on. If they were trapped this side of the Veil, wouldn't they have been affected in exactly the same way? So possibly it is the fact that modern elves are many generations down the line living on this side of the Veil, whereas the sentinels just went into uthenera but didn't breed at all; hence Abelas saying their numbers have diminished overtime. How can you say that the Dalish culture is not very different? The very act if living without the veil was different. Living in large cities with magical technology as we saw in the library was different. To my knowledge, the Dalish don't even speak fluent elvish. The Dalish are a nomadic people, roaming from site to site in smallish clans, living off the land. The ancient elves had a fully functional organized society in permanent settlements (cities). The Dalish are culturally hardly anything like the ancient elves. The fact that they don't even know that their vallaslin are slave markings makes that pretty clear. As far as the Sentinels, I thought it was stated that they were sleeping this entire time, and that the temple basically "woke up" recently? Whether or not they were physically affected by the veil is not what my point is. To them, all the life they've ever known, what their judgements and opinions (about the Dalish and other mortals) are based on, is that life without the veil.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 5, 2019 19:01:36 GMT
How can you say that the Dalish culture is not very different? The very act if living without the veil was different. Living in large cities with magical technology as we saw in the library was different. To my knowledge, the Dalish don't even speak fluent elvish. The Dalish are a nomadic people, roaming from site to site in smallish clans, living off the land. The ancient elves had a fully functional organized society in permanent settlements (cities). The Dalish admit that a lot was lost over time but they were trying to rebuild in permanent settlements in the Dales. It is true that what is now their nomadic culture is not a true reflection of ancient elven life but there are many other aspects that are. The fact that they don't even know that their vallaslin are slave markings makes that pretty clear. I actually take issue with this. Solas says they are slave markings because that is consistent with how he views the Evanuris. However, the memories of Abelas in the Temple of Mythal make it quite clear that he chose to serve Mythal and that is why he has her vallaslin. I'm pretty sure if you said to Abelas that he was a slave, he would be offended at the idea. It should also be pointed out that no one forces the Inquisitor to drink from the Well of Sorrows if they do, despite the warning that it will impart an obligation to serve on the drinker. The Dalish teach that taking a particular god's vallaslin shows allegiance to them and a wish to base their lives around what they understood that god represented. The codices in the Temple of Mythal would seem to endorse this and it would seem that the sentinels still honour the various gods within the temple complex. For all we know, the rite of passage into adulthood element of taking vallaslin may have had genuine grounding in the culture of the past. The fact that Solas removed the vallaslin of his followers was a sign that they had rejected the rule of the Evanuris. I just find it a bit annoying that we are meant to swallow whole everything that he asserts simply because he claims it is the absolute truth.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Mar 5, 2019 23:40:46 GMT
I imagine that some lingering magical effect of the Well of Sorrows preserved the Sentinels. They were 'bound' to the Well and compelled by a geas to obey Mythal and her orders. If she ordered them to remain they had to remain.
As for Solas, no matter what he says, he is a biased and therefore unreliable narrator. He was a rebel and the clear opponent of the government, a key strategy in any conflict is to demonize the enemy, after all the Evanuris did the same to him.
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Blaze
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
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Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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blaze
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Post by Blaze on Mar 6, 2019 8:23:03 GMT
nope. fen'harel recruit city elves to his cause, as part of his desire to restore the world of the elves, he is doing it for them. also listen when asking solas about city elves what his response. also listen to his conversations with sera, he clearly tries to recruit her, but end up deeming she is more human than an elf and give up I don't think this is the case. He killed Felassan for helping Briala, a city elf, when he could just have told him to sign her up. Just because he wants to recruit them to do his dirty work for him doesn't mean he is actually doing what he is doing for their sake. i haven't read "the masked empire" so i can't give much input on that. however, if i'm not mistaken he killed felassan for failure. as of briala, even i know that recruiting someone with her connection is risky, could have exposed him way too early and he doesn't know if she can be trusted. not to mention her connection with celene. it's just too much risk, and if i know that, solas who is much smarter than me, surely knows it as well. note, that he still approves if the inquisition sides with briala. you seem sure, what you based it on? i suggest you play inquisition again, pay attention to the way he react and speak with other elves (non dalish). also his exact qoute when the inquisitor asking about city elves: "they cling to memories of a better past and practice few rituals to distinguish themselves from humans", seem to me when speaking to abelas he definitely does talking about modern city elves when he says "some yet still linger". no, because it's quite clear sera is not a representation of modern city elves, she run away from what being an elf is about, which is why solas have a problem with her. when asking companions about gift for sera (if you romance her) than he bluntly says "she turned her back on what we should be". see most city elves haven't, that's why he fight for them, the real elvhen. be it modern or ancient, fen'harel want to restore the world of the elves, the problem he have are clearly with the dalish but not all modern elves. i get the points you are making, but i fear, they may come from a misunderstanding of the character.
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