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Post by KaiserShep on May 25, 2020 11:27:53 GMT
FF7R has a controversial ending, but fans dont bash the whole game for it, unlike ME3 (yes it has other issues like any other game out there, but the main issue the mass have with it is the ending). Bioware warned people before hand the ending would be upsetting. People ignored that, and went ahead and bought the game. Now they're blaming them for it, despite being given fair warning. Those ignorant people reap what they sow. They did, but I suspect that what they anticipated players would be upset about was greatly exceeded by the laundry list of issues people actually had with not just the story decisions, but the internal logic at play with how all the pieces were juggled to the end. Saying that it will be upsetting doesn’t provide an out for heavy criticism when the product finally drops. A story can be very upsetting yet still be considered a good, cohesive, fitting end. If large swaths of the player base didn’t get that impression, maybe being “upsetting” was the least of its problems.
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 25, 2020 15:13:37 GMT
Saying that it will be upsetting doesn’t provide an out for heavy criticism when the product finally drops. A story can be very upsetting yet still be considered a good, cohesive, fitting end. If large swaths of the player base didn’t get that impression, maybe being “upsetting” was the least of its problems. "Hey, I didn't like the ending because of these reasons" is very different from "Bioware writers should be flipping burgers"
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 4:25:17 GMT
Bioware warned people before hand the ending would be upsetting. People ignored that, and went ahead and bought the game. Now they're blaming them for it, despite being given fair warning. Those ignorant people reap what they sow. They did, but I suspect that what they anticipated players would be upset about was greatly exceeded by the laundry list of issues people actually had with not just the story decisions, but the internal logic at play with how all the pieces were juggled to the end. Saying that it will be upsetting doesn’t provide an out for heavy criticism when the product finally drops. A story can be very upsetting yet still be considered a good, cohesive, fitting end. If large swaths of the player base didn’t get that impression, maybe being “upsetting” was the least of its problems. It's unfortunate that so many took the ending at face value. A lot of the plot holes, logic, and stuff could be solved by not taking it too literally. Bioware did say there was multiple non-literal parts in this game.
I found no hard evidence that the people upset with the ending were the "vocal majority". All evidence I gather suggested maybe 100,000 or 3% (3.5M sales initially).
I've read a lot of their arguments, and they suggest they are the majority, but I think they say that in order to make Bioware listen to them more.
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Post by wright1978 on May 27, 2020 7:33:30 GMT
They did, but I suspect that what they anticipated players would be upset about was greatly exceeded by the laundry list of issues people actually had with not just the story decisions, but the internal logic at play with how all the pieces were juggled to the end. Saying that it will be upsetting doesn’t provide an out for heavy criticism when the product finally drops. A story can be very upsetting yet still be considered a good, cohesive, fitting end. If large swaths of the player base didn’t get that impression, maybe being “upsetting” was the least of its problems. It's unfortunate that so many took the ending at face value. A lot of the plot holes, logic, and stuff could be solved by not taking it too literally. Bioware did say there was multiple non-literal parts in this game.
I found no hard evidence that the people upset with the ending were the "vocal majority". All evidence I gather suggested maybe 100,000 or 3% (3.5M sales initially).
I've read a lot of their arguments, and they suggest they are the majority, but I think they say that in order to make Bioware listen to them more.
The silent casual people 'who never finished the game' or finished it or never cared were probably the majority. Those upset with the ending back in the day were far more than 3%, it was a very broad group with very different scales of unhappiness and understandably Bioware had to react.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on May 27, 2020 7:56:35 GMT
The fanbase isn't morally obligated to support everything. If the fanbase is toxic, Bioware has no one but themselves to blame for it. Never said that. No one supports everything Bioware does. We are all critical of the company's decisions. It's a different thing to say that the writers have no talent, that the developers are fools for not choosing one engine over the other or to pretend that the creative process is maliciously aimed towards the audience. That's neither a productive nor healthy attitude to have towards people that work hard to make videogames. Thank you so much, saying this as one working in videogames.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 8:01:53 GMT
It's unfortunate that so many took the ending at face value. A lot of the plot holes, logic, and stuff could be solved by not taking it too literally. Bioware did say there was multiple non-literal parts in this game.
I found no hard evidence that the people upset with the ending were the "vocal majority". All evidence I gather suggested maybe 100,000 or 3% (3.5M sales initially).
I've read a lot of their arguments, and they suggest they are the majority, but I think they say that in order to make Bioware listen to them more.
The silent casual people 'who never finished the game' or finished it or never cared were probably the majority. Those upset with the ending back in the day were far more than 3%, it was a very broad group with very different scales of unhappiness and understandably Bioware had to react. Well, to them Bioware didn't act accordingly. They wanted them to completely rewrite the entire ending. Not just the Starchild bit, everything. Bioware never did this, and thus people are still saying they felt Bioware didn't listen to them. So they go on and on about it, and say that if Bioware doesn't give them what they want, Bioware will cease to exist.
Bioware met them halfway, but halfway to the most vocal fans wasn't good enough. They wanted it their way or no way at all. New ending, or bust.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 27, 2020 11:35:03 GMT
It's unfortunate that so many took the ending at face value. A lot of the plot holes, logic, and stuff could be solved by not taking it too literally. Bioware did say there was multiple non-literal parts in this game.
I won't fault anyone for wanting to insert allegory as their personal headcanon, but I can't say that I'm keen on people thinking that everyone should do it.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 27, 2020 13:58:33 GMT
Never said that. No one supports everything Bioware does. We are all critical of the company's decisions. It's a different thing to say that the writers have no talent, that the developers are fools for not choosing one engine over the other or to pretend that the creative process is maliciously aimed towards the audience. That's neither a productive nor healthy attitude to have towards people that work hard to make videogames. Thank you so much, saying this as one working in videogames. Duuuude seriously ? Tell me what games you've made so I can wishlist them now !
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on May 27, 2020 14:09:01 GMT
Thank you so much, saying this as one working in videogames. Duuuude seriously ? Tell me what games you've made so I can wishlist them now ! I will evade and you would not want, its so many years ago.. I'm on QA/QC for upcoming & released games.
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Post by wright1978 on May 27, 2020 14:31:37 GMT
The silent casual people 'who never finished the game' or finished it or never cared were probably the majority. Those upset with the ending back in the day were far more than 3%, it was a very broad group with very different scales of unhappiness and understandably Bioware had to react. Well, to them Bioware didn't act accordingly. They wanted them to completely rewrite the entire ending. Not just the Starchild bit, everything. Bioware never did this, and thus people are still saying they felt Bioware didn't listen to them. So they go on and on about it, and say that if Bioware doesn't give them what they want, Bioware will cease to exist.
Bioware met them halfway, but halfway to the most vocal fans wasn't good enough. They wanted it their way or no way at all. New ending, or bust.
They didn't meet them halfway they doubled down on their ending, which is of course their right. They cleverly culled the herd by hiving off those who were just unhappy because they wanted any sort of closure.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 16:53:53 GMT
They didn't meet them halfway they doubled down on their ending, which is of course their right. They cleverly culled the herd by hiving off those who were just unhappy because they wanted any sort of closure. Well, the way I see it, people wanted closure, so Bioware made those EC slides. They wanted more explanation, so you are given more options to ask questions to clarify things a bit. They didn't see the results of their choices after the final decision was made, even though that's not what they were told what would happen, so Bioware made it so each ending slide that is show depends on your previous choices. Despite the entire game from start to the finish shows you the results of your choices from ME1+ME2+ME3.
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Post by wright1978 on May 27, 2020 17:18:17 GMT
They didn't meet them halfway they doubled down on their ending, which is of course their right. They cleverly culled the herd by hiving off those who were just unhappy because they wanted any sort of closure. Well, the way I see it, people wanted closure, so Bioware made those EC slides. They wanted more explanation, so you are given more options to ask questions to clarify things a bit. They didn't see the results of their choices after the final decision was made, even though that's not what they were told what would happen, so Bioware made it so each ending slide that is show depends on your previous choices. Despite the entire game from start to the finish shows you the results of your choices from ME1+ME2+ME3. Personally i find it laughable that it's somehow unreasonable for players to expect closure at the end of a trilogy and that Bioware should be patted on the head for doing what should have been the very basics done in the first place. Equally the notion that 3 games of choice equates to closure at the end of a galactic extinction event where they've set fire to the universe and run. Mac's everyone Speculate but we're shocked your speculating negatively.
As for the closure they eventually bothered to provide i am hardly going to cheer at the effort they went to of squadmate A smelling someone else's fart and having second thoughts over declaring my Shep prematurely dead.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 20:25:06 GMT
The only ending where they torch the galaxy and run is the low EMS destroy ending. Where the Crucible ignites the galaxy and destroys and kills everyone and everything. Unless that also includes the synthesis ending where the Reapers ascend everyone into Reaper form. Which is their whole reason for being here. Their whole reason, why they come to the galaxy every 50,000 years.
Or the control ending where in order for Shepard to control the Reapers, Shepard must become a Reaper. They don't just give you a remote control, and let you keep your original body. Even though the Illusive Man failed to control them, because they were already controlling him. Or as TIM said "they're just trying to control us". The other line was "I know with certainty, the Crucible will allow me to control them". Shepard says "and then what"? Look at the power they wield! Look at what they can do! Then the Reapers take control of Shepard's body and you shoot Anderson. TIM doesn't have any mind control powers, it was all the Reapers pulling the strings.
As that link I posted said, the story of Mass Effect 3 will be shaped by your previous choices, not the last 5 minutes of the game. And it was, so technically Bioware was telling you the truth.
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Post by alanc9 on May 27, 2020 21:01:53 GMT
Galactic extinction event? Hysterical hyperbole like that gets in the way of trying to have a serious conversation. Particularly since pre-EC that was a position sone folks held seriously; one point of the EC was to kill off that interpretation.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 27, 2020 23:54:02 GMT
The only ending where they torch the galaxy and run is the low EMS destroy ending. Where the Crucible ignites the galaxy and destroys and kills everyone and everything. Unless that also includes the synthesis ending where the Reapers ascend everyone into Reaper form. Which is their whole reason for being here. Their whole reason, why they come to the galaxy every 50,000 years. I... don't know if I'd agree with those interpretations Unless you're being sarcastic... *rubs chin*
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 0:10:27 GMT
The only ending where they torch the galaxy and run is the low EMS destroy ending. Where the Crucible ignites the galaxy and destroys and kills everyone and everything. Unless that also includes the synthesis ending where the Reapers ascend everyone into Reaper form. Which is their whole reason for being here. Their whole reason, why they come to the galaxy every 50,000 years. I... don't know if I'd agree with those interpretations Unless you're being sarcastic... *rubs chin* Which ending do you think "torches" the galaxy?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Cyberstrike on May 28, 2020 0:12:37 GMT
Reality is a matter of perception.
And of opinion. It seems.
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 28, 2020 2:41:14 GMT
I... don't know if I'd agree with those interpretations Unless you're being sarcastic... *rubs chin*Which ending do you think "torches" the galaxy? Well, all endings do end the cycle, one way or the other. Now if you're talking about the "torching" bit, then yeah, it's destroy. I wouldn't say the synthesis ending is "reaper ascension" though.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 7:41:39 GMT
Which ending do you think "torches" the galaxy? Well, all endings do end the cycle, one way or the other. Now if you're talking about the "torching" bit, then yeah, it's destroy. I wouldn't say the synthesis ending is "reaper ascension" though.
Once this happens, the cycle ends, and the Reapers essentially succeed in their harvest, thus defeating you. Game over, you lose.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 28, 2020 14:18:28 GMT
Well, all endings do end the cycle, one way or the other. Now if you're talking about the "torching" bit, then yeah, it's destroy. I wouldn't say the synthesis ending is "reaper ascension" though.
Once this happens, the cycle ends, and the Reapers essentially succeed in their harvest, thus defeating you. Game over, you lose. There are no new reapers in Synthesis. The whole point was to halt the conflict that comprises the basis of the Intelligence’s mandate. If organics and the machines are simply no longer motivated to fight, the reapers no longer have motivation to harvest. I hate to defend anything remotely affiliated with Synthesis, but the Intelligence only succeeds insofar that its original function is finally fulfilled.
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 28, 2020 14:27:11 GMT
Well, all endings do end the cycle, one way or the other. Now if you're talking about the "torching" bit, then yeah, it's destroy. I wouldn't say the synthesis ending is "reaper ascension" though.
Once this happens, the cycle ends, and the Reapers essentially succeed in their harvest, thus defeating you. Game over, you lose. Love ya Magnetite, from what little time I've been in the BSN I've loved your posts and your stalwart defense of Bioware. But this is the first time I've been see you being wrong about something ! "EDI: The war is over and the reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction... they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before. As a galaxy, we can now live the lives we wished for. Taking our steps into a new and wonderful future where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully"
People don't become reapers in the synthesis ending. The crucible allows the synthesis option to exist in the first place (it would be redundant and unnecessary to have the device if the reapers could've ascended everyone without) and with it, by allowing synthesis to occur, the distinction between synthetic and organic becomes meaningless and thus everyone can live in a "transhumanist" (transbiologist perhaps?) society. No one is ascended to reaper form in synthesis.
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Post by themikefest on May 28, 2020 16:06:11 GMT
The green. Everyone lives in peace? If so, does that mean it changed the choice the player made about sabotaging the genophage? If the genophage is sabotaged, with green being chosen, it has a slide showing the krogan rebuilding. The only time I see that slide is if I cure the genophage. Does that mean the green magically cured the genophage?
The biggest issue I have with the green is Shepard is forcing it on the galaxy. The other issue is it works for thing, not for organics. Look how much it butters up the green. That's because it's the only ending with thing remaining.
Fortunately my Shepard doesn't have to worry about that. She/he shoots the tube.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 28, 2020 17:45:26 GMT
The green. Everyone lives in peace? If so, does that mean it changed the choice the player made about sabotaging the genophage? If the genophage is sabotaged, with green being chosen, it has a slide showing the krogan rebuilding. The only time I see that slide is if I cure the genophage. Does that mean the green magically cured the genophage? The biggest issue I have with the green is Shepard is forcing it on the galaxy. The other issue is it works for thing, not for organics. Look how much it butters up the green. That's because it's the only ending with thing remaining. Fortunately my Shepard doesn't have to worry about that. She/he shoots the tube. Actually yes. If Synthesis is chosen, it cancels out your decision to sabotage. I hate Synthesis because of the whole “pinnacle of evolution” nonsense. It’s right up there with the horseshit genetic diversity bit that ME2 shat out at us.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 17:59:54 GMT
Once this happens, the cycle ends, and the Reapers essentially succeed in their harvest, thus defeating you. Game over, you lose. Love ya Magnetite, from what little time I've been in the BSN I've loved your posts and your stalwart defense of Bioware. But this is the first time I've been see you being wrong about something ! "EDI: The war is over and the reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction... they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before. As a galaxy, we can now live the lives we wished for. Taking our steps into a new and wonderful future where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully"
People don't become reapers in the synthesis ending. The crucible allows the synthesis option to exist in the first place (it would be redundant and unnecessary to have the device if the reapers could've ascended everyone without) and with it, by allowing synthesis to occur, the distinction between synthetic and organic becomes meaningless and thus everyone can live in a "transhumanist" (transbiologist perhaps?) society. No one is ascended to reaper form in synthesis. I would rather defend the people who worked on the game, than some of these fans who think they know how the game works better than the developers who created it.
You know, the Reapers are only at peace with you, because you let them harvest you, right?
Actually, it said "make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form". What you're seeing in those slides is the "new life" forms. However, the old life forms, your original body, was used to make Reapers.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 28, 2020 18:05:19 GMT
Love ya Magnetite, from what little time I've been in the BSN I've loved your posts and your stalwart defense of Bioware. But this is the first time I've been see you being wrong about something ! "EDI: The war is over and the reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction... they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before. As a galaxy, we can now live the lives we wished for. Taking our steps into a new and wonderful future where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully"
People don't become reapers in the synthesis ending. The crucible allows the synthesis option to exist in the first place (it would be redundant and unnecessary to have the device if the reapers could've ascended everyone without) and with it, by allowing synthesis to occur, the distinction between synthetic and organic becomes meaningless and thus everyone can live in a "transhumanist" (transbiologist perhaps?) society. No one is ascended to reaper form in synthesis. I would rather defend the people who worked on the game, than some of these fans who think they know how the game works better than the developers who created it.
You know, the Reapers are only at peace with you, because you let them harvest you, right?
Actually, it said "make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form". What you're seeing in those slides is the "new life" forms. However, the old life forms, your original body, was used to make Reapers.
So what, you think the galaxy we're seeing in the epilogue is a Matrix-style fantasy world while in real life everyone was turned into a Reaper? Or are you saying that with Synthesis everyone ceased to exist and the people we see are merely some kind of copy?
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