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Post by sjsharp2010 on May 30, 2020 12:02:34 GMT
Because BioWare can write a hell of a lot better than what they did with ME3 ending. And it is disappointing that they ruined the legacy of the franchise, because of bad writing. They done a better job with the ending on Origins, compared what they did with Mass Effect 3 ending. And I don't blame fans who are dissatisfied with the controversial ending that tarnished the franchise. Maybe you don't know the skill of Bioware's writers as well as you think you do? Writing a story isn't just about writing it and publishing it when it's done. They also edit and go back and change stuff until they believe it all makes sense and fits in with what they are doing, and that was mentioned in one of their documentaries.
People like yourself, just love to come up with conspiracy theories and other things just to hate on Bioware and feel good about yourself. Oh, some guy claiming to be Patrick Weekes came out and told the inside story of what "really" happened during the ending process. The real Patrick Weekes comes out and says that's not true. People like you believe the imposter over the real guy, because it fuels your hate. When you're angry, you're not thinking clearly.
So even if Bioware did decide to explain the ending to you, every step of the way, in order for it to make sense, I don't think you would even listen to what they had to say.
The Leviathan DLC pretty much does a good job at rehashing the ending from start to finish in various different scenes, using parodies as examples to try and explain things more. People took it way out of context. So yeah, it's fair for me to say, it's not the writer's fault they wrote it poorly. It's you guys who already decided to hate on it, because it wasn't what you wanted. They took everything said "word for word", as opposed to some stuff was just implied, but never said out loud directly. No, unless it's explicitly told to you, people won't buy into it.
People keep bringing up that "oh, but if Shepard could convince the Reapers that synthetics and organics can get along, then the Catalyst won't kill them with the destroy ending". Were those people even listening when they made that argument? The Catalyst didn't come up with the choices. The Crucible did. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities". But again, people ignored that and focused on hating the Catalyst, and how much they wanted an option to talk him out of killing all synthetics. Which the exact line was "all synthetics will be targeted...even you are partly synthetic". Yes, that second bit essentially says you will die too, but it's implied, as opposed to saying "you will die". That leaves no room for doubt. All synthetics is a pretty broad term, it means any kind of synthetic. Pretty much everything that isn't purely made out of only flesh and blood will be destroyed. Shepard does have some cybernetic implants in him, so it's not like it only destroys your implants, it destroys everything, including you.
However, if your EMS is high enough, you wake up and are in fact alive, despite the Catalyst telling you that you would die.
People would rather have them tear the whole thing down and start again, rather than think about it in any way. They even said as much. We don't want an explanation! We want a new ending! Ultimately Bioware didn't want to rewrite the ending, because some fans didn't like it or it wasn't what they wanted.
They call it lazy writing if Bioware doesn't explain everything to you in the most simplest way possible. Is it bad writing, or do you simply not understand what is being said? Clearly if you are one of those people who thought the Catalyst came up with the choices, then it's not the writing that is the issue, it's your comprehension.
When it comes to making games, you seem to think they write and produce the game in the exact order that you play it. This is not the case at all. The script gets written first, before anything else. Like that documentary said, they have a "high-level" document which essentially summarizes the plot of the game from start to finish. Then they start working on the side missions and stuff in the middle. The ending as it is, was pretty much set in stone, before they even made the game.
The ending to DAO is a pretty simple, straightforward ending. Doesn't require much thought, and that may be why it's so popular. They practically spoon feed everything to you. It's not just an ending slide where the player interprets it in their own way like the Extended Cut. There's actual spoon-feeding going on, telling you exactly what is going to happen. So the player just sits back and watches, as the writers hold your hand and tell you everything.
You really can't compare Dragon Age to Mass Effect. The Reapers aren't anything like the Darkspawn. They are much more advanced technology wise, and they have more numbers and brute force than the galaxy does. There was little chance of surviving them harvesting people, beyond coming up with a device, which combined with the Citadel, and the mass relays will defeat them. Some people complaining don't even like that idea. They think they can take the Reapers head on and win, but refusal ending puts that theory to shame. There's also numerous references in the game stating it's not possible, but people ignore that and focus on their "power fantasy", because this makes good storytelling to them. Yeah in a lot of ways it's better of that way leave i tup to the consumer to decide for themselves how to fill in the gaps and make sense of it. Sometimes in fact a lot of times a tleast in sci fi TV shjows I have seen have left gaps like that. I happen t oknow tha tbot hStar Trek and Xfiles both did this a lot over the yeards those 2 shows were running for example Also as you say Dragon Ag eis a differen ttype of story from Mass Effect as it's fantasy not sci fi so doesn't really apply here. I like both series for what they are and what they do for their respective genres so I don't think it would really be fair to compare them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 30, 2020 14:19:03 GMT
Is this natural disaster referring to the state of the galaxy after you make your choice? There was plenty of references leading up to it during the game. The natural disaster is referring to the state of the franchise, the developer and the publisher, post ending debacle. Disconnect the analogy from the game itself, but the real world repercussions it tangibly had in the market. There's only one race in the entire Mass Effect universe that is a hybrid of organic and synthetic--the Reapers. Listen, call them smurfs, if you want. I'm not hang up on the onomatopoeia. Would you ever admit, maybe you are wrong? I could. But then I'd be wrong. I could admit that I'd wrong to admit I'm wrong, which would be right. Sounds to me like that's a no, since you're still repeating yourself 8 years later Fuck me and what I am hang up about. You have yet to provide any hard evidence to suggest the majority of the people who bought the game were upset Uh, do I need to prove the concept of brand damage? That it is a thing? Because it is a thing. The reason why we have a definition for it, is proof of its existence. And how do we know ME suffered that brand damage? Sales. In May 2012, EA reported that Mass Effect 3 grossed over $200 million during Q4 FY12.Just an FYI, Mass Effect released on March 6th, meaning that it had 15 days to make that $200 million. Meanwhile, for AndromedaWedbush Securities analyst Michael Pachter estimated that Mass Effect: Andromeda sold at least 2.5 million units in its opening quarter, resulting in $110 million in revenueSo we have an almost halving of revenue compared to ME3. However, we all know that Andromeda's release was March 21st 2017, the very last day of its opening quarter. So 2.5 million copies on release, that's a resounding success, right? Wrong. As stated later The closest that EA has come to noting an exact figure was in their fourth quarter (Q4) of fiscal year 2017 (FY17) notes for investors, which stated that $53 million of the game's net sales related to its special editions were to be captured in Q1 FY18 instead of Q4 FY17 (the quarter of its release) for accounting purposesMeaning the estimate was made in regards to Q1 FY18, not Q4 FY17 as that, essentially, is Andromeda's release quarter, which is also why 2.5 million copies, at $60 a pop, does not make $110 million USD. So Andromeda made little over half, as little as $10 million USD can be considered, but that's the besides the point, the money of ME3, in 6 times the period ME3 took to reach $200 million. While discounted. Heavily so, in some instances. An argument can be made that Andromeda still sold 2.5 million copies. Mass Effect 2 nearly matched that in retail alone, in its first week. Electronic Arts sold-in more than two million copies of the game to worldwide retailers for its first week of releaseAnd while that is sold-in, not sold-through, it doesn't take into consideration digital sales at all, it was also one year in the Great Recession, did not see a simultaneous PS3 release, so it was limited to XBOX and PC, while gaming itself, as a medium, was not as big as it was in 2017, with the XBONE/PS4 gen being, arguably, the most populated gaming gen so far, with 2017 being one of the better financial years in a long time, certainly better than 2010's. In other words, we see ME's market performance to have regresses to pre-2010 levels and while this would have been good performance for 2007 ... well, it would have been good performance for 2007. When ME1 was released on 1 console, that had barely 2 years under its belt. In March 2017, the XBONE and PS4 combined had a total playerbase of 100 million gamers, not even counting PC. Well, in order for a problem to exist, they actually have to verify one does exist Indeed. Each choice will have a consequence. Some choices have bigger consequences than others. For example, I worked for an ISP and satellite TV provider. The Satellite TV department, whose main selling point was sports, decided not to renew its contract with a major, annual sporting event. Market Analysts predicted a loss of 0.5 million subscribers, because of that. That would be a huge blow. We lost around 30k, which we made up for with market growth. Evidently so, this wasn't the case with ME3. Like I said, Bioware estimated the cost of the blow, thought they could weather it. Turns out they didn't. There was no problem they could verify, until it was too late. I've been saying this for a while now, someone has been feeding EA bad data. People complaining the ending didn't make sense, was interpreted as "needs more clarification" Again, bad data. Or, the ones "interpreting" the data dropped the ball. Even the Colin Moriarty video said that the fans wanted the endings "changed" not "clarified". Let's not forget some gaming magazine "hot takes" on the issue. What sequel? You mean ME4? I mean Andromeda. Never said it was a single unsatisfied customer. Was just using that as an example. In terms of proportion, it is inaccurate. You would need a slew of customers banging your dealership's door, asking for their coupons. At which point, someone clearly miscommunicated something to the client base.
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 30, 2020 21:31:12 GMT
***deep sigh*** I think you missed the point of the ending entirely. The point is at the top of your head.
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Post by cloud9 on May 30, 2020 23:02:06 GMT
The ending to the trilogy was poorly conceived and poorly received and there's just no talking around it I'm afraid. And people still want to defend the ending.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 30, 2020 23:11:08 GMT
Yeah in a lot of ways it's better of that way leave i tup to the consumer to decide for themselves how to fill in the gaps and make sense of it. That's not how writing works. That's plot hole writing. There's one thing to leave a trail of circumstantial evidence that, when piled up, lead to one logical conclusion, it's another thing to have people suffer aneurysms between shots, that require "related media" or mental gymnastics to make sense of.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on May 31, 2020 0:09:35 GMT
Yeah in a lot of ways it's better of that way leave i tup to the consumer to decide for themselves how to fill in the gaps and make sense of it. That's not how writing works. That's plot hole writing. There's one thing to leave a trail of circumstantial evidence that, when piled up, lead to one logical conclusion, it's another thing to have people suffer aneurysms between shots, that require "related media" or mental gymnastics to make sense of. Depends on how you viwe it thoughI was quiet happy woith it.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 3:57:56 GMT
That's not how writing works. That's plot hole writing. There's one thing to leave a trail of circumstantial evidence that, when piled up, lead to one logical conclusion, it's another thing to have people suffer aneurysms between shots, that require "related media" or mental gymnastics to make sense of. The addition media (aka DLC), is not required to understand the ending. If you feel you needed more closure or you feel your choices didn't matter, despite them not advertising that all your choices would affect the final cutscene of the game, then you can download the Extended Cut for free. If you want to know more about the Reapers and their origins, you can buy Leviathan. Otherwise, if you want it to remain a mystery, then don't buy it.
When people start spewing responses like:
-Red, green, blue, the endings are all the same. -What the Starchild is saying to you: Yo dawg, I heard you don't like being killed by synthetics, so I made some synthetics to kill you every 50K years so you won't be killed by synthetics. -They believe they're not here to harvest us, they're here to help us rebuild and share the knowledge of cultures that came before us, as well as make peace with everyone. Despite (many) ( conversations) ( throughout) the (trilogy) stating they harvest people, that's their goal. There's even a codex entry to explain what harvesting is, but they took it out of context. -They think the Reapers are here to save us from our own synthetic creations, just because the vent boy tells you so. -They see the Reapers as victims to the Starchild's own agenda (since, apparently, he "controls" them).
-The leader of the Reapers is vent boy, and the Reapers are just toys for him to play with.
-They want to convince the Starchild that peace is possible, and that if I had enough EMS he would not kill my synthetic friends in destroy (despite being told, your effective readiness determines what choices are available to you, and they had Reaper agents sabotaging the Crucible project)
-They think what happens in the synthesis ending results in the creation of "techno-organics" or "cyborgs", or something along those lines. -They complain about plot holes when something isn't explained. Or even if it was explained earlier, either they don't like the explanation or they try to twist it into their own interpretation then get mad when Bioware didn't write the game how you expected it to happen. -They refer to anything unexplained or weird about the ending as "space magic". -They think because a crew member is seen in one place, then about 20 minutes later, they're on the Normandy, as teleportation. When, in fact, stuff happens off-scene in movies all the time.
It's clear to me that Bioware may have underestimated these people. They weren't even following the story, then blaming the writers for screwing up. No writer should ever have to make it so every single person understands what they're talking about. Otherwise you'd get a pretty boring, predictable story. It's clear that these people who are spewing this nonsense are clearly not their target audience for the game. They essentially put clues in the game and the player was to find those clues. It's all interactive. But, hey, that failed, since if they have to think about anything, then the writers didn't do their job.
The main problem I see is taking the ending way too literally, as well as simply not paying attention to what was being said. I mean, they really believed Shepard was on the Citadel when it blew up, and he somehow survived the explosion, as well as re-entry back to Earth. Or he's still on the Citadel after the credits, and he's floating in space somewhere, without a helmet, and a melted suit, and severe internal and external injuries. Do you know just how crazy this sounds?
They tested this game, from start to finish. It passed certification, and went through a beta and release candidate testing process. Everything checked out, and they shipped it. If the game had that many problems like people suggest, it would not have made it past the testing phase, let alone be able to ship it.
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 31, 2020 4:21:42 GMT
Different context bro, but you have eminently too much faith in the process. I mean, wasn't I telling you a big problem with BioWare these days was how they have a bad habit of finishing a game after they've already released it? Games not being finished before release can and do happen.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2020 4:30:51 GMT
The ending to the trilogy was poorly conceived and poorly received and there's just no talking around it I'm afraid. Yeah it was a big ol train wreck.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 31, 2020 4:44:31 GMT
They tested this game, from start to finish. It passed certification, and went through a beta and release candidate testing process. Everything checked out, and they shipped it. If the game had that many problems like people suggest, it would not have made it past the testing phase, let alone be able to ship it.
[chortles in Bethesda] It cannot be overstated how wrong this statement is. Games can ship with so many issues that it makes QC seem nonexistent. Games can ship with numerous and reliably repeatable bugs, some of which may never be corrected, despite going through this supposed testing. Fallout 76 is one such case of a comedy of errors that jiggers the imagination as to how those friggin’ people managed to burn that abattoir of janky coding to disc without the studio bursting into flames.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 5:10:34 GMT
Different context bro, but you have eminently too much faith in the process. I mean, wasn't I telling you a big problem with BioWare these days was how they have a bad habit of finishing a game after they've already released it? Games not being finished before release can and do happen. Maybe it was finished, just not to your liking? I mean, the goal was to defeat the Reapers and the ending accomplishes that. Conflict solved, game over.
It cannot be overstated how wrong this statement is. Games can ship with so many issues that it makes QC seem nonexistent. Games can ship with numerous and reliably repeatable bugs, some of which may never be corrected, despite going through this supposed testing. Fallout 76 is one such case of a comedy of errors that jiggers the imagination as to how those friggin’ people managed to burn that abattoir of janky coding to disc without the studio bursting into flames. Maybe what you refer to as bugs aren't actually bugs. If the game company cannot reproduce an issue, then it is considered unsolvable or nonexistent. Just because people think there is a problem, doesn't mean there is one.
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Post by wright1978 on May 31, 2020 5:21:47 GMT
Different context bro, but you have eminently too much faith in the process. I mean, wasn't I telling you a big problem with BioWare these days was how they have a bad habit of finishing a game after they've already released it? Games not being finished before release can and do happen. Maybe it was finished, just not to your liking? I mean, the goal was to defeat the Reapers and the ending accomplishes that. Conflict solved, game over. Dallas wanted to bring back Bobby Ewing. He steps out of shower, the entire previous season is a dream. Goal accomplished.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 5:38:13 GMT
Well they sure as hell aren't bringing back Shepard. He's either dead, or retired.
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Post by cloud9 on May 31, 2020 6:46:40 GMT
***deep sigh*** I think you missed the point of the ending entirely. The ending is terrible and it needs to be rewritten.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 8:14:31 GMT
The ending is terrible and it needs to be rewritten according to my exact specifications. Bioware's writers have no clue what they're doing, so I'm going to feel the need to take control of the situation personally to make sure everything goes according to what I want, because I know the franchise better than they do. I won't rest until Bioware gives me what I want. I will not take no for an answer. Fixed that for you.
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Post by mugwump v1 on May 31, 2020 10:04:28 GMT
The ending to the trilogy was poorly conceived and poorly received and there's just no talking around it I'm afraid. Yeah it was a big ol train wreck. No doubt about it. None!
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 31, 2020 12:41:49 GMT
Different context bro, but you have eminently too much faith in the process. I mean, wasn't I telling you a big problem with BioWare these days was how they have a bad habit of finishing a game after they've already released it? Games not being finished before release can and do happen. Maybe it was finished, just not to your liking? I mean, the goal was to defeat the Reapers and the ending accomplishes that. Conflict solved, game over. Come on mate, I just pitched you a free ball, and you have to go and make an assumption about the content? What's a game that was made by BioWare in the last 5 years that has largely been seen as being released as unfinished and unpolished? Hint: there are two of them. Btw, ME3's ending sucked. Only nimrods and pudknockers think otherwise.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 31, 2020 13:06:59 GMT
The addition media (aka DLC) ... tl;dr
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 31, 2020 13:13:43 GMT
The ending is terrible and it needs to be rewritten according to my exact specifications. Bioware's writers have no clue what they're doing, so I'm going to feel the need to take control of the situation personally to make sure everything goes according to what I want, because I know the franchise better than they do. I won't rest until Bioware gives me what I want. I will not take no for an answer. Fixed that for you. What a bitch move.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 17:12:51 GMT
Maybe it was finished, just not to your liking? I mean, the goal was to defeat the Reapers and the ending accomplishes that. Conflict solved, game over. Come on mate, I just pitched you a free ball, and you have to go and make an assumption about the content? What's a game that was made by BioWare in the last 5 years that has largely been seen as being released as unfinished and unpolished? Hint: there are two of them. Btw, ME3's ending sucked. Only nimrods and pudknockers think otherwise. Money doesn't grow on trees. Every project has a budget and deadlines that are worked out before hand. I've already explained to you why the ending wasn't written like you describe, but rather like in the movies. Script gets written before everything else. It's an iterative process which goes through many drafts before they come up with the final version. You don't really know what went on at the studio, because you didn't work there.
Ah, so if people liked the ending, then they're basically stupid for having an opinion different than yours. Which you think the people who hated it were the majority. Well that's just argumentum ad populum right there. Argumentum ad populum is not an argument.
Look, this is ultimately about control. When something doesn't go as you wished, then you wish to retake control of things and have it remade in your own image. The "super fans" think they know the story and universe better than Bioware does. They've mentioned many times how incompetent and lazy their writers are. So they want them to go back and rewrite the ending according to their specific wishes. There's a thing called fan fiction you know? These people don't want fan fiction. They want their vision for the game to become the real ending, and thus made canon.
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 31, 2020 23:21:27 GMT
Come on mate, I just pitched you a free ball, and you have to go and make an assumption about the content? What's a game that was made by BioWare in the last 5 years that has largely been seen as being released as unfinished and unpolished? Hint: there are two of them. Btw, ME3's ending sucked. Only nimrods and pudknockers think otherwise. Money doesn't grow on trees. Every project has a budget and deadlines that are worked out before hand. I've already explained to you why the ending wasn't written like you describe, but rather like in the movies. Script gets written before everything else. It's an iterative process which goes through many drafts before they come up with the final version. You don't really know what went on at the studio, because you didn't work there.
Ah, so if people liked the ending, then they're basically stupid for having an opinion different than yours. Which you think the people who hated it were the majority. Well that's just argumentum ad populum right there. Argumentum ad populum is not an argument.
Look, this is ultimately about control. When something doesn't go as you wished, then you wish to retake control of things and have it remade in your own image. The "super fans" think they know the story and universe better than Bioware does. They've mentioned many times how incompetent and lazy their writers are. So they want them to go back and rewrite the ending according to their specific wishes. There's a thing called fan fiction you know? These people don't want fan fiction. They want their vision for the game to become the real ending, and thus made canon.
Stuck on a repeat loop here folks, he can't compute. I would claim I broke his brain, were it not for the observation that others probably did before so. You saw it here first though, I gave not one, but two examples (implied [sic] Andromeda and Anthem) and he still foams at the mouth about the ""super fans" (his quotes, not mine) that are coming to get you's!" So uh... do I just blow the dust out of your socket, or do I just bang you real hard till the playback works?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 23:27:34 GMT
I think you guys are stuck in an endless loop which says "rewrite the ending". The message has been repeating itself for the last 8 years.
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The Hype Himself
Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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hawkeyegod
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 31, 2020 23:33:28 GMT
I think you guys are stuck in an endless loop which says "rewrite the ending". The message has been repeating itself for the last 8 years. Dammit, it's one of those stuck keyboard problems. It's only repeating me now.
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The Hype Himself
Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
4,023
August 2016
hawkeyegod
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Hype Himself on May 31, 2020 23:37:59 GMT
Victory is mine! Less than 3 days back and I made a user self-terminate!
ME3 HAPPY ENDING CALLERS! I CALL ON YOU TO NOMINATE ME AS YOUR GOD-EMPEROR-HIS-MIGHTY-LENGTH-LORD-MAGNIFICENT! I WILL DEFEAT THE REAPERS WITH MY GLORIOUS FISHING POLES!
REMEMBER MY TEQUILA BRAND MOTTO: DON'T MIND THE SALTY TASTE, JUST GULP IT DOWN AND GO FOR THE WORM!
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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2020 0:08:39 GMT
Victory is mine! Less than 3 days back and I made a user self-terminate! ME3 HAPPY ENDING CALLERS! I CALL ON YOU TO NOMINATE ME AS YOUR GOD-EMPEROR-HIS-MIGHTY-LENGTH-LORD-MAGNIFICENT! I WILL DEFEAT THE REAPERS WITH MY GLORIOUS FISHING POLES! REMEMBER MY TEQUILA BRAND MOTTO: DON'T MIND THE SALTY TASTE, JUST GULP IT DOWN AND GO FOR THE WORM! Do not be too proud of this sociological terror you’ve constructed.
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