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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2020 20:42:13 GMT
SO: to me, really makes sense, that the reason, he had no black-out/memory loss in friendship, he has in rivalry. Yes, I can understand the different experience in game but why then does the codex relating to Anders seem to focus on how he is in rivalry? It ties in with the fact that the writer believes that rivalry is the better path for him, which I still can't understand. Really they want our perception of him to fit with their agenda, which after all was one were they ultimately wanted us to discover we had been duped by a demon if we went with friendship path but was not allowed to take it that far. So I assume the writers argument is that Anders was always putting on an act of being in control on the friendship path whereas he doesn't bother in rivalry, or some such nonsense. As I've said before, Anders could have been motivated to act as he did without Justice playing a part in it, simply by what happened to Karl. Plus, if Anders hadn't actually told us he thought he had twisted Justice into Vengeance (backed up by the codex) I would never have thought that was the case. At times there can be such a thin line between justice and vengeance anyway that I really think it is just two aspects of the same spirit, which come and go according to what sort of emotional state Anders is in at any particular time. I do think the codex for Act 2 is erroneous though, suggesting he can't control himself around Templars, when we can come and go from the Gallows and Chantry with no problem. He wouldn't be much good to the mage underground either if he couldn't keep control and he admits that he has actually been inside the Gallows and seen Alric there, so he must have been able to control himself or Alric would have been dead already. Anyway, I was reading the codex for Act 3 if Ella dies and it mentions him spending "long hours cloistered with Tevinter texts, adding more layers to his already lofty plans for overthrowing the Chantry". This is interesting because it clearly makes his target the Chantry, not simply the Circle or Templars. Also the suggestion with "loft plans" is again that his idea that mages can achieve their freedom is what the writer considers delusional about him. What has me puzzled is exactly what does he think he is going to find in Tevinter texts to help him? I suppose the idea is to suggest that he really did find the idea for his bomb in a Tevinter document. Except that is plainly nonsense. If Tevinter knew how to make magical bombs, I doubt they would find the Qunari such a problem as it is the Gaatlok of the Qunari that everyone wants to discover the secret of and which the Qunari deny them the knowledge. I'd always assumed that there was never any Tevinter document and he got the idea for his bomb from his time with that dwarf at Vigil's Keep, who we are told in Act 3 in the Deep Roads was forced to go into hiding from the Qunari because clearly they think his explosives are too close to their own. However, the suggestion that he actually has been studying Tevinter documents got me wondering if that is what they were trying to hint at. Except you wouldn't even know he had been studying the documents if Ella survived because it isn't in that codex. As I say, the writing and the codices are all over the place where Anders is concerned. What makes me sad/angry: HE said himself, that "or was the 'Tranquil Solution' just another of my delusions" It was so much a direct suggestion that: you see: he said himself, Justice is "a creature of vengeance", he's a monster and has serious delusions... But if this was the goal: to show him "lunatic" and monster, it was an "own goal" (how on English say people: shooting in the foot?): it just shows, he has many doubts – what excludes, he's a zealot and "lunatic"...! And he –despite his doubts about the Chantry and the Circle–, still an Andrastian Circle Mage with their view about the possessions, spirits and demons. If this was the goal: to show Anders as someone who has his struggles – then this is a perfect way, excellent writing... but as I said: it was rather the goal to suggest: his view is so wrong, and he's so damaged, that even he, himself believes, he has serious delusions, and he's a monster... I hope it makes, sense, but according to me, the goal matters, makes the writing good or bad – but also, this vague writing, inherently or accidentally, gives us a very good character (I still can't exclude it was at least half-intentional, but maybe it just my naivety)– if we can take those codexes as a biased observer's notes... AND to ignore Hawke's many STUPID and sometimes INSULTING answers – that suggests, Hawke sees him as an idiot – or (blue one sometimes) feels SORRY for him being delusional...
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 14, 2020 22:51:39 GMT
just another of my delusions This is my problem. What are the delusions that he is referring to when he says "just another of my delusions". When you are delusional the whole problem is that you are not self aware. That is the power of your paranoia. You absolutely believe in them and it is only when you stop believing in the delusion that you start to heal. Except in Anders case the abuses in the Circle are not delusions. They are real. So why does Anders think they are delusions? As I see it there is only one delusion that could be said to be a genuine one and that is the belief that it is possible to break the Chantry's hold over the mages, that mage freedom could ever be a reality. The reason I say this is that we are fed various codices to show that individuals and smaller groups have tried to break away in the past and failed, usually ending up being made tranquil. You could argue the same thing happened with Karl. After all he says he was made tranquil because he was too rebellious. However, would Anders ever admit that he was delusional about this? In any case, is it delusional to want to free people from oppression, however impossible the odds appear of doing so? Then surely Andraste was delusional. This is why I say that the writer was wrong in trying to equate possession in Thedas with mental illness in the real world. Whilst in our world it is likely that in the medieval period when people were described as possessed they were really mentally ill and to be honest when I was in the grip of paranoid delusion it did feel a bit like possession, every other example in Thedas of spirit possession, even by the demon Imshael, does not affect the person like it does Anders. Mihris had an ancient demon possessing her in Masked Empire and yet it leaves her unscathed after he departs. Wynne twice has a crisis of faith in Asunder, once in the Fade when the spirit is forced to step in against the demon and the second time when she seems ready to do something evil to save Rhys, yet her relationship with the spirit remains the same. Both the Avvar and Rivaini have beneficial possessions with spirits. Neither culture would be so accepting of this and resistant of those trying to get rid of their seers if it had the sort of effect it does with Anders. Plus the writer can't seem to make up their mind if it is Anders affecting the spirit adversely or vice versa. To be honest for Anders to have affected the spirit adversely like he claims to have done, he would already have had to be unstable before they merged. I've said before, people can get very angry about injustices in the world, so what Anders felt was normal. If the spirit has such control over his mind, surely it would have tempered his desire for vengeance if that was what his anger was turning towards, unless of course Justice felt the desire for vengeance was justified? If Anders twisted the spirit, then he is the dominant partner, so why is it implied the spirit is controlling him, leading to lapses of memory when it does so? Anders claims that he is the dominant partner in the Waking World and Justice is in the Fade. Well when we are in the Fade, Justice seems perfectly normal with no sign of vengeance about him. He attacks Hawke if he thinks they are going to do an unjust act of giving Feynriel to the sloth demon. As I keep saying, if they wanted to do this with a character, they should have been consistent in approach no matter whether friend or rival, not give a completely different picture from one to the other. Also make it clear what exactly his delusions are meant to be.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 0:21:01 GMT
just another of my delusions This is my problem. What are the delusions that he is referring to when he says "just another of my delusions". When you are delusional the whole problem is that you are not self aware. That is the power of your paranoia. You absolutely believe in them and it is only when you stop believing in the delusion that you start to heal. Except in Anders case the abuses in the Circle are not delusions. They are real. So why does Anders think they are delusions? As I see it there is only one delusion that could be said to be a genuine one and that is the belief that it is possible to break the Chantry's hold over the mages, that mage freedom could ever be a reality. The reason I say this is that we are fed various codices to show that individuals and smaller groups have tried to break away in the past and failed, usually ending up being made tranquil. You could argue the same thing happened with Karl. After all he says he was made tranquil because he was too rebellious. However, would Anders ever admit that he was delusional about this? In any case, is it delusional to want to free people from oppression, however impossible the odds appear of doing so? Then surely Andraste was delusional. This is why I say that the writer was wrong in trying to equate possession in Thedas with mental illness in the real world. Whilst in our world it is likely that in the medieval period when people were described as possessed they were really mentally ill and to be honest when I was in the grip of paranoid delusion it did feel a bit like possession, every other example in Thedas of spirit possession, even by the demon Imshael, does not affect the person like it does Anders. Mihris had an ancient demon possessing her in Masked Empire and yet it leaves her unscathed after he departs. Wynne twice has a crisis of faith in Asunder, once in the Fade when the spirit is forced to step in against the demon and the second time when she seems ready to do something evil to save Rhys, yet her relationship with the spirit remains the same. Both the Avvar and Rivaini have beneficial possessions with spirits. Neither culture would be so accepting of this and resistant of those trying to get rid of their seers if it had the sort of effect it does with Anders. Plus the writer can't seem to make up their mind if it is Anders affecting the spirit adversely or vice versa. To be honest for Anders to have affected the spirit adversely like he claims to have done, he would already have had to be unstable before they merged. I've said before, people can get very angry about injustices in the world, so what Anders felt was normal. If the spirit has such control over his mind, surely it would have tempered his desire for vengeance if that was what his anger was turning towards, unless of course Justice felt the desire for vengeance was justified? If Anders twisted the spirit, then he is the dominant partner, so why is it implied the spirit is controlling him, leading to lapses of memory when it does so? Anders claims that he is the dominant partner in the Waking World and Justice is in the Fade. Well when we are in the Fade, Justice seems perfectly normal with no sign of vengeance about him. He attacks Hawke if he thinks they are going to do an unjust act of giving Feynriel to the sloth demon. As I keep saying, if they wanted to do this with a character, they should have been consistent in approach no matter whether friend or rival, not give a completely different picture from one to the other. Also make it clear what exactly his delusions are meant to be. I agree again. Many problems in it: as you said: illogical if he's delusional, but the writer said: the friendship is a more maniac way, because it strengthens his DELUSIONS. But he doesn't have one delusion. Everything what he said, proved. He said: - The suicide is the first cause of death in the Circle: Orsino's whole backstory was about that the suicide was the most common cause of death in Kirkwall – but I can see it in any other Circle... this is not delusion, this is the truth – and BW canon...
- Templars in the Gallows make harrowed mages Tranquil frequently, even against the Chantry's law: Karl was made tranquil, Hawke was eyewitness, and Hawke just prevented a perverted Templar to make Tranquil Ella, and to use her, so: Hawke (and the player) was eyewitness again, if this is not enough, then meta-knowledge: Maddox was made tranquil before/in Act1 (without the big bad red sword) because of a love letter (Cullen says: the official explanation was he corrupted a Templar, but if the Inquisitor questions: really someone was made tranquil for a love letter? Cullen answers: Meredith made tranquil mages for lesser "sins" as well)*
- The "Tranquil Solution"... We already spoke about it. Also: Cullen was not really outraged to hear about it. Neither Elthina. Elthina just said: it didn't happen, so, get over it, no matters anymore (The Maker... of course, revered Mother...)
- In the Circle, mages get raped – proved as well. In fact even worse: Alrik made them Tranquil before... but Karras "visited" Alain in his cell – Hawke can hear it at the Gallows.
- Templars take away mage children – this is personal experience, and Hawke knows it as well.
Where ANY delusion here? Or he "overreacted", just "whined" when he mentioned these? I don't think so. *** *I read opinion on a Discord, that Samson was lyrium addict (this is true, according his backstory, he took more lyrium than it was usual), and probably Maddox was his dealer to bribe him to send his love letter... But: Cullen's next sentence proves, a love letter as reason was not the lesser "sin" in Meredith's eyes. *** Thinking about he is delusional can be also a type of anxiety, but a different type. And if the writer wanted to show, he has "clear moments" – when he realizes he has delusions – why his "delusions" all were proved? And why his "clear" moment were always in the middle of the greatest stress? After, he PROVED his suspects... (I think the mere thing, what happened in the secret tunnel, and to Karl made him not delusional even if the idea of the mass tranquility wouldn't exist – but EXISTED. And Hawke can still treat him as an idiot... Another thing: maybe he heard before, he's delusional – just remember how can Hawke and the others speak with him. Like he was an idiot. Only Bethany who takes him seriously, even Hawke can have many wrong answers. And yes, the rivalry... like he has been written for rivalry, and the natural reaction to everything what he says: "you can't be that paranoid, it never happened and never will, impossible..." or "you should stop your idiocy"... He seems not sarcastic here – but he had reason being sarcastic... And yes: many part of the description his "being delusional" – especially related by possession, is definitely a disrespectful and harmful treatment for mental illness.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 10:35:49 GMT
Many problems in it: as you said: illogical if he's delusional, but the writer said: the friendship is a more maniac way, because it strengthens his DELUSIONS.There is one other possible delusion and that is that he can control the spirit within him. Except much of the time Anders seems to think the opposite and so far as I can tell, whether you are on friendship or rivalry, the entry regarding Ella surviving is the same. After his attack on Ella, Anders lost interest in the cause of mage revolution. Convinced he was no better than an abomination, Anders was determined to gain mastery over the spirit inside him... or die trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is losing this struggle. Prone to wild mood swings between deep melancholy and manic determination, Anders has again taken up the mantle of mage freedom—though it is unclear whether this decision came from Anders or Justice.
This is what we are meant to believe about him. Yet, as I say, except in a few specific instances, Anders seems perfectly in control. Since you can do the quest involving Ella early on in Act 2 (I just did), that means everything that follows, including our time in the Fade is where Anders is meant to be struggling to control the spirit but he plainly isn't. Also, if Justice is now Vengeance, they should call the spirit that. The weird thing is that the Vengeance part of Anders' specialism automatically activates if you take him to the Fade. Also, I never recall Anders saying that he is no longer interested in freeing the mages. The first time I played DA2, I was rather sucked into seeing Anders as the writer wanted me to. Clearly he must be exaggerating everything and the situation wasn't as bad as he claimed. Of course because you have to pick up that note about Alric in Act 1 before the end of the fight or you never get to see it, I missed the fact that the guy we meet in Act 2 was known by other Templars to be acting illegally. I didn't pick up on Alain either (wrong dialogue choice I think and never clicked on him in the Gallows) or that tranquil wandering around the Gallows speaking about belonging to Alric now. However, Cole's conversation with Cassandra in DAI confirmed that abuses occurred and not just in the Gallows. There were also all those entries in WoT2 that backed up what Anders was saying, so this time round I've paid far more attention to what NPCs are saying in addition to what Hawke can witness first hand and I realise that it is all there in DA2 if you pay attention. Yet why did the writers make it that way if they want you to believe Anders is delusional? Regardless, right from DAO I've wanted to tear the Chantry down because their treatment of Shartan, the elves, mages and because I'd already worked out that this was not how Andraste's words should be interpreted in the Chant. I would prefer doing it by peaceful means but Thedas being Thedas I doubt that was ever possible. I still think they went overboard on the effect of Anders' bomb because I can't believe our few ingredients could have achieved an explosion that big, unless there was a gigantic lyrium store under the Chantry and he placed his bomb in it, although that would have made it more likely to be discovered. Anyway, I still maintain that because his writer had an agenda in writing him, Anders as a character did not receive justice in the way his possession or thought process was dealt with and afterwards in DAI the writing team seemed determined to continue to denigrate him in everything other people said about him. Contrast how he is dealt with compared with Solas. With him we are being led to believe that everything he did was justified because the Evanuris were tyrants controlling the people with their religion but we only really have the word of him and his followers that is true. Effectively what he did on a grander scale was blow up the Chantry of his time but he is being presented as a heroic freedom fighter. Incidentaly, the Solas we meet in Trespasser is also possessed but we are still given the option of "redeeming" him by "saving our friend from himself". The fact is that Anders was very much a victim of the Chantry system but no one ever says as much in game. So the Chantry very much reaped what they sowed. What surprises me is that it took so long for someone to do what he did. However, Fenris makes the point that slaves are very much conditioned by their circumstances to focus on the present and never think it can ever be different, which is presumably why mages tamely accepted their situation for so long. Plus, of course, as I have previously point out, there is a disparity between the way the children of peasants and the children of nobles are treated within the Circle that reflects the situation in the wider world. So just as nobles collaborate to maintain the status quo there, those with the backing of nobles do the same within the Circles (hence Vivienne). I do find it curious, though, that on the latest run the thought occurred to me that Anders only set off his bomb because a particular point had been reached in the relations between Meredith and Orsino. Otherwise we are meant to believe that coincidentally we are called to deal with the conflict between the two of them at exactly the same time as Anders put his plan into action but there was no direct connection between the two. After all, he urged us to speak with Elthina and give her one final chance to pick a side, even though he was already planting his bomb, so what if she had come out in support of the mages. What then? On a slightly unrelated note, the codex on the Templar Cummerbund says that it is taught that Andraste sang to the Maker for 208 days in order to get his help. Was that 208 days before he responded the first time? Or 208 days after that first response before he came up with a plan? May be that is why he doesn't seem to get involved in events because he takes so long deciding what he wants to do, that the moment has passed. I so wish they would write a character that constantly sends up the Chantry religion, pointing out its shortcomings in a satirical rather than a confrontational way. That would be fun.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 11:54:58 GMT
Another random thought. DG maintained that if you killed Anders that was it and he was permanently dead so we wouldn't see him again. Justice however was a different matter. Anders says that if you kill him Justice will finally be free. DG said that it might be possible to see Justice again in the future. However, if Anders warped Justice into Vengeance so "he was no longer my friend Justice" and it is the spirit of vengeance that drives him to do what he does in the final act, surely that is again a contradiction? Justice won't be free and we won't see him again because Justice is no more. What would be freed and what we would encounter is Vengeance. I still maintain that based on the lore about spirits, it was never a case of warping Justice into something else simply because of Anders' anger unless Anders did something that was against the nature of Justice. Also since the spirit was inside of his mind, if Anders had attempted to do this then Justice would have stopped him. If Justice could not prevent him doing this, then the spirit was never in control of him. The reason, of course, for this paradox is that the writer always wanted Anders to have been fooled by a demon, so the spirit was never Justice in the first place but that is not the narrative we were given. Why did none of the other writers on the team ever question this?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 12:14:14 GMT
Cullen says: the official explanation was he corrupted a Templar, but if the Inquisitor questions: really someone was made tranquil for a love letter? Cullen answers: Meredith made tranquil mages for lesser "sins" as well) That to me we totally believable because clearly Meredith would take a very dim view of a Templar being persuaded to do something by a mage and no doubt assumed that the mage must have done some sort of illegal magic. I doubt her paranoia about blood magic was solely due to the sword. Incidentally she is someone you can correctly attribute that word to. She is deluded that all mages are only one step away from dabbling in illegal magic and any evidence that they aren't behaving exactly as good mages should is justification for her treatment of all the mages in the Gallows with harsher restrictions. I do wonder if prolonged use of lyrium does accentuate the prejudices in the person's mind and red lyrium just does it to a greater degree. Still that admission of Cullen does confirm that Meredith was making mages tranquil with full knowledge of her Templars and for lesser acts than persuading a Templar to take love letters to someone outside the Cirlce. In other words for trivialities that should never have warranted anything other than perhaps a stiff reprimand. Once again, Anders is proven not delusional about the number and illegality of these Rites of Tranquility being performed. What is more the First Enchanter must have been aware as well. Also every Circle in Thedas has a sending stone. Whilst it is possible that Meredith has their one guarded, there had to be some way of getting to it and sending out a message to other Circles of what was going on. If not, seeing as Orsino was able to get books out to Quentin, it should have been possible for him to get a message out about the abuses as well. I do have a lot of sympathy for Orsino and think his character was also treated very shabbily by the writers but in this I feel that Anders may have been right to rebuke him because he must have known what was going on and yet apparently made no attempt to bring them to light. Either that or he did but Elthina ignored him and he gave it up as hopeless.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 12:38:40 GMT
Many problems in it: as you said: illogical if he's delusional, but the writer said: the friendship is a more maniac way, because it strengthens his DELUSIONS.There is one other possible delusion and that is that he can control the spirit within him. Except much of the time Anders seems to think the opposite and so far as I can tell, whether you are on friendship or rivalry, the entry regarding Ella surviving is the same. After his attack on Ella, Anders lost interest in the cause of mage revolution. Convinced he was no better than an abomination, Anders was determined to gain mastery over the spirit inside him... or die trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is losing this struggle. Prone to wild mood swings between deep melancholy and manic determination, Anders has again taken up the mantle of mage freedom—though it is unclear whether this decision came from Anders or Justice.
This is what we are meant to believe about him. Yet, as I say, except in a few specific instances, Anders seems perfectly in control. Since you can do the quest involving Ella early on in Act 2 (I just did), that means everything that follows, including our time in the Fade is where Anders is meant to be struggling to control the spirit but he plainly isn't. Also, if Justice is now Vengeance, they should call the spirit that. The weird thing is that the Vengeance part of Anders' specialism automatically activates if you take him to the Fade. Also, I never recall Anders saying that he is no longer interested in freeing the mages. The first time I played DA2, I was rather sucked into seeing Anders as the writer wanted me to. Clearly he must be exaggerating everything and the situation wasn't as bad as he claimed. Of course because you have to pick up that note about Alric in Act 1 before the end of the fight or you never get to see it, I missed the fact that the guy we meet in Act 2 was known by other Templars to be acting illegally. I didn't pick up on Alain either (wrong dialogue choice I think and never clicked on him in the Gallows) or that tranquil wandering around the Gallows speaking about belonging to Alric now. However, Cole's conversation with Cassandra in DAI confirmed that abuses occurred and not just in the Gallows. There were also all those entries in WoT2 that backed up what Anders was saying, so this time round I've paid far more attention to what NPCs are saying in addition to what Hawke can witness first hand and I realise that it is all there in DA2 if you pay attention. Yet why did the writers make it that way if they want you to believe Anders is delusional? Regardless, right from DAO I've wanted to tear the Chantry down because their treatment of Shartan, the elves, mages and because I'd already worked out that this was not how Andraste's words should be interpreted in the Chant. I would prefer doing it by peaceful means but Thedas being Thedas I doubt that was ever possible. I still think they went overboard on the effect of Anders' bomb because I can't believe our few ingredients could have achieved an explosion that big, unless there was a gigantic lyrium store under the Chantry and he placed his bomb in it, although that would have made it more likely to be discovered. Anyway, I still maintain that because his writer had an agenda in writing him, Anders as a character did not receive justice in the way his possession or thought process was dealt with and afterwards in DAI the writing team seemed determined to continue to denigrate him in everything other people said about him. Contrast how he is dealt with compared with Solas. With him we are being led to believe that everything he did was justified because the Evanuris were tyrants controlling the people with their religion but we only really have the word of him and his followers that is true. Effectively what he did on a grander scale was blow up the Chantry of his time but he is being presented as a heroic freedom fighter. Incidentaly, the Solas we meet in Trespasser is also possessed but we are still given the option of "redeeming" him by "saving our friend from himself". The fact is that Anders was very much a victim of the Chantry system but no one ever says as much in game. So the Chantry very much reaped what they sowed. What surprises me is that it took so long for someone to do what he did. However, Fenris makes the point that slaves are very much conditioned by their circumstances to focus on the present and never think it can ever be different, which is presumably why mages tamely accepted their situation for so long. Plus, of course, as I have previously point out, there is a disparity between the way the children of peasants and the children of nobles are treated within the Circle that reflects the situation in the wider world. So just as nobles collaborate to maintain the status quo there, those with the backing of nobles do the same within the Circles (hence Vivienne). I do find it curious, though, that on the latest run the thought occurred to me that Anders only set off his bomb because a particular point had been reached in the relations between Meredith and Orsino. Otherwise we are meant to believe that coincidentally we are called to deal with the conflict between the two of them at exactly the same time as Anders put his plan into action but there was no direct connection between the two. After all, he urged us to speak with Elthina and give her one final chance to pick a side, even though he was already planting his bomb, so what if she had come out in support of the mages. What then? On a slightly unrelated note, the codex on the Templar Cummerbund says that it is taught that Andraste sang to the Maker for 208 days in order to get his help. Was that 208 days before he responded the first time? Or 208 days after that first response before he came up with a plan? May be that is why he doesn't seem to get involved in events because he takes so long deciding what he wants to do, that the moment has passed. I so wish they would write a character that constantly sends up the Chantry religion, pointing out its shortcomings in a satirical rather than a confrontational way. That would be fun. Yes: this is a delusion, he should control the spirit. As he said after Feynriel's quest, if Hawke dealt/tricked the sloth demon, that he think, Justice feels that bad, as he feels, when Justice in charge. Justice is a person – we met him in Awakening, and Anders is on a good way to realize how he feels inside him. Control? Then they'll always fight – so no: they have to learn to live together, in interaction. (At least as I see – I posted here before the fic, how I see it in friendship, how that "maniac", "enabler" Hawke how tries to help him. This is just another theory of me.) But according to this codex, Anders didn't want to control Justice, but to learn, how to be master of the situation. What is absolutely NOT a delusion, but the only way to handle it. Sadly, in game he speaks about "control". I don't see it "delusion" if Anders wants to learn how they live together. Delusion if he thinks: he has to control Justice, and if he controls Justice, then it will be better – and this is the RIVALRY path, where Hawke thinks: Justice is a demon. By the way: his quest's first part –separate Justice from him on a dangerous way (nobody heard before – sounds like some dangerous experiment) – to me, it sounds like a rivalry way: BUT illogically, the refusal is rude – when, for example, Ralph, was reluctant to endanger him with a dangerous: and in RP-reason he just played time while feverishly searched anything about this "potion". I think, his love would react in this way (but this is just me), but again: the refusal was harsh. The other part of "Justice" quest (to distract Elthina) rather for a friendly Hawke – why would rival-Hawke help him in it? I found it incredibly stupid. (And I'm glad... sorry, this is maybe petty... that rival-Hawke should be dumb to achieve the full conversations – and the possibility to force him against the mages. Again, why for Andraste's Holy Ass, rival-Hawke, who doesn't believe his cause, in fact probably absolutely against it, maybe deeply Andrastian, or/and thinks, VENGEANCE controls him – would help him to distract Elthina? Especially, that at this moment Hawke knows, that the potion was a lie... Perfectly stupid...) It's easy to see the game as the writers lead the gamer: Except of Bethany, everyone treat Anders like if was a lunatic, even, for example Varric, Hawke's best friend suggests sometimes, and also his "opinions like testicles" and "they're both men in skirt" like if pushes the player toward that Hawke should be neutral – because look at Varric: "he's the only reasonable member of the group". But with Hawke's background – people HARDLY neutral, even as warrior/rogue, Hawke grew in a mage family, should have an opinion about the situation. (But again: this is just me – and we are different.) And about Anders: hawke seems forced to believe he's delusional, extremist. The Chantry explosion was incredibly dramatical (like the Archdemon's explosion... maybe Elthina is an Archdemon...)
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 12:48:45 GMT
Another random thought. DG maintained that if you killed Anders that was it and he was permanently dead so we wouldn't see him again. Justice however was a different matter. Anders says that if you kill him Justice will finally be free. DG said that it might be possible to see Justice again in the future. However, if Anders warped Justice into Vengeance so "he was no longer my friend Justice" and it is the spirit of vengeance that drives him to do what he does in the final act, surely that is again a contradiction? Justice won't be free and we won't see him again because Justice is no more. What would be freed and what we would encounter is Vengeance. I still maintain that based on the lore about spirits, it was never a case of warping Justice into something else simply because of Anders' anger unless Anders did something that was against the nature of Justice. Also since the spirit was inside of his mind, if Anders had attempted to do this then Justice would have stopped him. If Justice could not prevent him doing this, then the spirit was never in control of him. The reason, of course, for this paradox is that the writer always wanted Anders to have been fooled by a demon, so the spirit was never Justice in the first place but that is not the narrative we were given. Why did none of the other writers on the team ever question this? They did: Hepler's pet idea was rejected. (Thanks to the Maker...)
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 13:46:24 GMT
They did: Hepler's pet idea was rejected. (Thanks to the Maker...) They rejected the idea about the demon but left the inconsistencies in the writing concerning Justice alone. So you can see where the writers thought processes were leading even though they stopped it reaching that final destination. It is why I now ignore what the writer is trying to make me believe and simply go on what I observe. Anders is still heavily influenced by his time in the Circle so it is understandable that he thinks the worst about himself because that would be the view of the Chantry and Templars. As Hawke should not be unduly influenced in that way, it explains why they can take a different perspective of the matter. The other part of "Justice" quest (to distract Elthina) rather for a friendly Hawke – why would rival-Hawke help him in it? I found it incredibly stupid. As I've mentioned before, the only time I rivaled Anders my Hawke told him to get lost after the Ella quest, even though he didn't kill her. I just couldn't see why they would have any time for him if they were so against everything he believed and for that matter Anders would feel the same way. I think the writer was going for the idea that you still like Anders but it is helpful to constantly undermine him so he becomes aware he is deluded and thus rivalry is better for him. However, in that case, as you say, why on earth would they continue to play along with his plan and distract Elthina once he has admitted the whole thing was a lie? It is like Hawke is constantly playing along just so they can put him down, which to my mind is not helpful at all. Anders didn't want to control Justice, but to learn, how to be master of the situation. I think saying that Anders wants "mastery over the spirit inside him" is just another way of them saying he wants to control it. Either way that is effectively make Justice a slave to his whims, rather than a co-operative partner, so I can see that warping Justice into something else. As I've said before, the situation if a rival Hawke makes Anders fight against the mages is horrible. He says about the spirit scrabbling inside of his mind, trying to break free, so not only is Anders absolutely in control at this moment but poor Justice is clearly distraught at being forced to do something that is so totally unjust. A spirit of Vengeance wouldn't care. They would just embrace the vengeance that the Templars want to deal out against all mages. A spirit of Justice though would totally abhor the idea, which again points to Justice still being himself but imprisoned by Anders' will. To be honest, in that situation I would have liked for them to allow Justice to break out and turn on Hawke because they have become everything he was opposed to. The fact that he doesn't is why Anders seems to hint that he is going to kill himself because he knows what he is doing to Justice. Yet in DAI it would seem that he doesn't and can still be in a relationship with this awful Hawke. Now that Hawke I would leave in the Fade. (Of course I since I could never be in a romance with a rivaled Anders that won't happen). The Chantry explosion was incredibly dramatical (like the Archdemon's explosion... maybe Elthina is an Archdemon...) The Arch-demon is understandable. It is the death of an Old God/uber Demon and release of whatever ancient magic was contained in them. If anything the explosion of the Chantry is greater than that of the Arch-demon and more akin the what happened at the Conclave. That was also the release of very powerful ancient magic. There is no way Anders or Justice were capable of that, no matter how many ancient texts he had read. If he were then I'm surprised the Archon/Black Divine/Venatori/Corypheus etc wouldn't be trying to track him down. That sort of knowledge would be really useful against your enemies. Plus if he knew about from Tevinter texts, then surely they would have access to similar knowledge, which they clearly don't. Also, if Hawke was a hero of Tevinter for killing the Arishok, imagine how they'd celebrate what Anders did to the southern Chantry building. For all we know, perhaps he has been made an anointed of the Imperial Chantry. (If that guy who enjoyed killing elves could be made a saint of the southern Chantry, the least the writers could do is make Anders a saint in the north).
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 15, 2020 14:29:19 GMT
I've been reading along with your conversations again, and I've been thinking about how I want to approach my canon Hawke. Her name will be Aelinore (Nora for short), she'll be a two-handed warrior (dogs of war and all that) with the Templar spec. (though I head canon her as a spirit warrior) She'll be very protective over her sister Bethany, horrified, hurt and confused when she's taken to the Circle. She also tries to see the best in everyone, but will try to stop the more extremer elements whenever she finds them (think about Grace 'let me free from the Circle even after my boyfriend tried to kill you and I just asked you to kill some templars') With that in mind...how would she react and interact with Anders? (I plan on romancing Fenris...mostly because he's my canon romance)
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 15:38:44 GMT
With that in mind...how would she react and interact with Anders? My second Hawke was a Warrior and took the Templar spec but like you I didn't think he was relying on lyrium but more just training, which is what Alistair thought was really the trick behind it in DAO and the lyrium was just to keep them under the Chantry's thumb (which DG later backtracked on). So I imagined Malcolm had passed on a few tips from what he had observed when in the Circle (after all that Templar Carver was a friend of his). Anyway, he was supportive of the idea of mage freedom because he knew his father and sister were perfectly safe out in the community but he did come down hard on mages who abused their freedom. Whilst he did end up on the friendship scale with Anders, I seem to recall he collected the ingredients for him but he didn't go any further with the plan once he discovered it was a lie. He was absolutely furious with Anders for what he did as it placed Bethany in danger, so he executed him but still protected the mages because, as with most of my Hawkes, he knew they were not guilty of the crime and besides he wanted to save Bethany or die trying. I know some people say they go with Meredith in the hope she will spare Bethany but my guy would never have trusted Meredith to come through on that.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 15, 2020 15:49:23 GMT
My second Hawke was a Warrior and took the Templar spec but like you I didn't think he was relying on lyrium but more just training, which is what Alistair thought was really the trick behind it in DAO and the lyrium was just to keep them under the Chantry's thumb (which DG later backtracked on). So I imagined Malcolm had passed on a few tips from what he had observed when in the Circle (after all that Templar Carver was a friend of his). Anyway, he was supportive of the idea of mage freedom because he knew his father and sister were perfectly safe out in the community but he did come down hard on mages who abused their freedom. Whilst he did end up on the friendship scale with Anders, I seem to recall he collected the ingredients for him but he didn't go any further with the plan once he discovered it was a lie. He was absolutely furious with Anders for what he did as it placed Bethany in danger, so he executed him but still protected the mages because, as with most of my Hawkes, he knew they were not guilty of the crime and besides he wanted to save Bethany or die trying. I know some people say they go with Meredith in the hope she will spare Bethany but my guy would never have trusted Meredith to come through on that. Thank you for your insight
I'm not sure if my Hawke will be as extreme as killing Anders for what he did, I suspect in part she'll understand. So mine will likely just send him away.
Though mine won't be support Meredith either...there's that part in 'On the Loose' that still irks me, as in Meredith more or less threatening/blackmailing Hawke into helping her or she'll do something to Bethany
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 16:58:25 GMT
My second Hawke was a Warrior and took the Templar spec but like you I didn't think he was relying on lyrium but more just training, which is what Alistair thought was really the trick behind it in DAO and the lyrium was just to keep them under the Chantry's thumb (which DG later backtracked on). So I imagined Malcolm had passed on a few tips from what he had observed when in the Circle (after all that Templar Carver was a friend of his). Anyway, he was supportive of the idea of mage freedom because he knew his father and sister were perfectly safe out in the community but he did come down hard on mages who abused their freedom. Whilst he did end up on the friendship scale with Anders, I seem to recall he collected the ingredients for him but he didn't go any further with the plan once he discovered it was a lie. He was absolutely furious with Anders for what he did as it placed Bethany in danger, so he executed him but still protected the mages because, as with most of my Hawkes, he knew they were not guilty of the crime and besides he wanted to save Bethany or die trying. I know some people say they go with Meredith in the hope she will spare Bethany but my guy would never have trusted Meredith to come through on that. Thank you for your insight
I'm not sure if my Hawke will be as extreme as killing Anders for what he did, I suspect in part she'll understand. So mine will likely just send him away. Though mine won't be support Meredith either...there's that part in 'On the Loose' that still irks me, as in Meredith more or less threatening/blackmailing Hawke into helping her or she'll do something to Bethany Absolutely it was a blackmail – and if Hawke point to that, Meredith dodges. ("Oh, I just wanted to say, your sister is a good mage"... nice parry, Templar...) About your question: Depends on Hawke... Mine fell instantly into Anders – AND was hot headed enough to swear he will burn anything to free Bethany, when the Templar took away, but I can imagine a less hothead one, who while agrees with Anders perhaps about everything, can't risk it to show openly – because of Bethany. Still can help him, just more reluctantly. And I don't think, a Hawke who loves Bethany can trust in Meredith for a moment – after see, what happened to Karl – and especially to Ella! (Here Hawke can send Anders away, or still trust/try to trust him –or just keep an eye on him, while sympathizes...–, but Alrik would kill Ella's soul and ...) Bethany also mentions Alrik in her letter. Hawke can see, how many Templars with him – AND in the possession of those pieces of knowledge, Hawke would never think, Bethany's safe – or can try to reassure him/herself, she is in safe – until that blackmail... and Hawke can snooping around the Gallows, and listen to the whispers... (depends on RP... – both ways has reason I think – many people easily accept the delusion of the safety, very interesting RP view.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 17:03:17 GMT
Though mine won't be support Meredith either...there's that part in 'On the Loose' that still irks me, as in Meredith more or less threatening/blackmailing Hawke into helping her or she'll do something to Bethany That annoyed me too. If I had any doubts about working against her that did away with them. To admit that Bethany is an exemplary mage and then threaten to harm her just to get her way just emphasised how corrupt the Templar order was.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 17:32:18 GMT
I'm not sure if my Hawke will be as extreme as killing Anders for what he did, I suspect in part she'll understand. So mine will likely just send him away. I should emphasise this was a long time ago when I was still going along with the view the writer was foisting on me that Anders was an out of control abomination by the end of Act 3. Now I've had time to re-evaluate I doubt any of my future Hawkes would execute him either. That early Hawke was romancing Isabella so Anders was purely seen as a friend who had deceived and betrayed him. My latest rogue Hawke was angry with him over his deception but Bethany was in the Wardens so never in any danger from the Annulment. Besides she is in love with Anders. Incidentally for the first time ever Fenris did turn on me initially but had second thoughts when we reached the Gallows and I reminded him he was against slavery (Odd how "Join me" translates to that dialogue: you'd never guess it). Now I seem to recall Fenris would never agree with Anders that the mages were slaves of the Circle, so clearly he always disagrees with him on principle (except over Merrill/Marethari).
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 15, 2020 17:41:37 GMT
Absolutely it was a blackmail – and if Hawke point to that, Meredith dodges. ("Oh, I just wanted to say, your sister is a good mage"... nice parry, Templar...) About your question: Depends on Hawke... Mine fell instantly into Anders – AND was hot headed enough to swear he will burn anything to free Bethany, when the Templar took away, but I can imagine a less hothead one, who while agrees with Anders perhaps about everything, can't risk it to show openly – because of Bethany. Still can help him, just more reluctantly. And I don't think, a Hawke who loves Bethany can trust in Meredith for a moment – after see, what happened to Karl – and especially to Ella! (Here Hawke can send Anders away, or still trust/try to trust him –or just keep an eye on him, while sympathizes...–, but Alrik would kill Ella's soul and ...) Bethany also mentions Alrik in her letter. Hawke can see, how many Templars with him – AND in the possession of those pieces of knowledge, Hawke would never think, Bethany's safe – or can try to reassure him/herself, she is in safe – until that blackmail... and Hawke can snooping around the Gallows, and listen to the whispers... (depends on RP... – both ways has reason I think – many people easily accept the delusion of the safety, very interesting RP view.) I have part of my Hawke's personality in my head already, but most of it will depend on what I can actually do in the game itself. Aelinore is a blue Hawke with helping of purple and red if needed. And while she sees the Templars as being a necessary force her increasing run ins with extreme elements (such as Alrik) make her doubt a lot. Which is why I'm using Spirit Warrior as her head canon specialization as opposed to her in-game Templar spec.
For Anders, she trusts him a lot and expects the same from him. So when he doesn't wish to reveal his plans during Act 3 I do think she'll go along with them, despite knowing he's using emotional blackmail to get her to help. She'll try to put two and two together, but will come to the realizations of his plan to late, which would coincide with the revelation of what he did. Despite Sebastian's insistence of killing Anders, she'll send him away. I'm not sure yet if she'll also send him away the second time (as in at the Gallows) but I think that'll depend on when I actually get that far. I've done a similar approach in the past, where my Hawke sends him away, but lets him help after all when he approached them in the Gallows. Though I'm not sure yet if Aelinore will do the same
I'm also pondering on the prologue group she'll side with. I've always done the smugglers in the past, a few times I did the 'betray Meeran and then side with Athenril' route, but I've never done the just Meeran route. Though I'm not sure if that'd fit this particular Hawke. That annoyed me too. If I had any doubts about working against her that did away with them. To admit that Bethany is an exemplary mage and then threaten to harm her just to get her way just emphasised how corrupt the Templar order was. let's not forget Meredith's 'your mother' card she pulls at the start of Act 3 Meredith: your mother was killed by a mage (ergo you cannot trust them)
Hawke: ...who's fault do you think that is? I mean, Meredith is the one who stops Emeric's investigation after Gascard (who although he wasn't the real killer did know the identity and location of the real one) 'course Aveline is also partially to blame for that, and if you point it out to her she deflects it
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 19:04:18 GMT
let's not forget Meredith's 'your mother' card she pulls at the start of Act 3 [img src="//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/uJDSFxTaceXHJgvOKqTG.png" alt="[_[" class="smile"] That essentially is why I didn't want to do her dirty work for her regardless of how I felt about mages. To pull that one on Hawke after she pulled Emeric off the investigation and apologised to Gaspard for troubling him (I know he wasn't actually guilty of the murders but he was involved and he was using blood magic). I'd wanted to yell at her: "If you'd hadn't stopped him Emeric could have dealt with that murderer years ago." The best the game would allow me was shutting her down with the aggressive option. Leaving aside the red lyrium sword, Meredith's leadership since taking over the Templars was a long catalogue of abuse of mages, abuse of power and failure to deal effectively with truly dangerous apostates even when provided with evidence by her own Templar. If this was the case with the main power base of the Templars in the Freemarches, what justification was there for using them to police mages anywhere? I must admit it did give me a great deal of satisfaction being able to actually disband the order in DAI rather than simply assume its destruction from red lyrium. Also, whilst I wasn't actually allowed to set up an alternative Andrastrian religion to the Chantry, getting Leliana as Divine is the next best thing. I just hope that her reforms stick.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2020 20:09:54 GMT
Lol at people griping about and refusing to work Meredith after she blackmails, yet loving and agreeing to work with Anders when he blackmails too.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 20:52:17 GMT
Lol at people griping about and refusing to work Meredith after she blackmails, yet loving and agreeing to work with Anders when he blackmails too. 1. Anders' "blackmail" is just a lame and desperate try, to have Hawke's support. 2. Meredith blackmail is REAL – and she threatens Hawke's sister. 3. Anders' right... ofc. And Meredith is a mad tyrant.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2020 21:40:50 GMT
Lol at people griping about and refusing to work Meredith after she blackmails, yet loving and agreeing to work with Anders when he blackmails too. 1. Anders' "blackmail" is just a lame and desperate try, to have Hawke's support. 2. Meredith blackmail is REAL – and she threatens Hawke's sister. 3. Anders' right... ofc. And Meredith is a mad tyrant. 1. Except it's not. He does do what he threatens to do if you don't adhere to his demands. 2. Not condoning hers any more than I condone Anders's. 3. Anders is wrong, and a warmongering terrorist abomination. Don't disagree with assessment of Meredith.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 21:45:08 GMT
Lol at people griping about and refusing to work Meredith after she blackmails, yet loving and agreeing to work with Anders when he blackmails too. The difference is that Meredith is in a position of authority and is abusing her power by threatening Hawke/Bethany in that way. You have no option but to do what she wants as a result. With Anders it is purely a personal matter and you are at liberty to tell him you will not do that for him if you wish. He might get snarky as a result but he does not threaten to harm either Hawke or their sibling as a result of the refusal.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2020 21:47:37 GMT
1. Except it's not. He does do what he threatens to do if you don't adhere to his demands. He is not blackmailing you to blow up the Chantry but simply to distract the Grand Cleric. He does not tell you why, which is the whole point of why you object to doing it. If you refuse he may carry forward with his plan but he does not directly threaten you for refusing him.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 21:55:38 GMT
1. Anders doesn't threaten Hawke. With what? Also: he asks for help, not demands Hawke's help. 2. No. I very much can condone to anyone for anything I want. And as I said: very much there is two different thing: Anders says, if you care about me... – this is not a threat, but Meredith threatens Hawke with Hawke's sister, who is under her WHIM. 3. He's not. BUT. AGAIN: I very much can condone to anyone for anything I want. This is the point of the forgiveness: it's not about rights, this is a gift. Understand?
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2020 21:57:22 GMT
1. Except it's not. He does do what he threatens to do if you don't adhere to his demands. He is not blackmailing you to blow up the Chantry but simply to distract the Grand Cleric. He does not tell you why, which is the whole point of why you object to doing it. If you refuse he may carry forward with his plan but he does not directly threaten you for refusing him. He doesn't even says: he will leave Hawke, if Hawke refuses him.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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LadyofNemesis
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ladyofnemesis
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 15, 2020 23:19:54 GMT
That essentially is why I didn't want to do her dirty work for her regardless of how I felt about mages. To pull that one on Hawke after she pulled Emeric off the investigation and apologised to Gaspard for troubling him (I know he wasn't actually guilty of the murders but he was involved and he was using blood magic). I'd wanted to yell at her: "If you'd hadn't stopped him Emeric could have dealt with that murderer years ago." The best the game would allow me was shutting her down with the aggressive option. Leaving aside the red lyrium sword, Meredith's leadership since taking over the Templars was a long catalogue of abuse of mages, abuse of power and failure to deal effectively with truly dangerous apostates even when provided with evidence by her own Templar. If this was the case with the main power base of the Templars in the Freemarches, what justification was there for using them to police mages anywhere? I must admit it did give me a great deal of satisfaction being able to actually disband the order in DAI rather than simply assume its destruction from red lyrium. Also, whilst I wasn't actually allowed to set up an alternative Andrastrian religion to the Chantry, getting Leliana as Divine is the next best thing. I just hope that her reforms stick. Don't forget that Aveline was also partially responsible...at least you can call her out on it, doesn't do much aside from giving you a few rivalry points. I wanted to argue with her about it too! And not just on that occasion, during the Act2 ending as well. Gee Aveline why didn't you investigate sooner, and why didn't you punish your guardsman for forcing himself on a girl? (Never mind that said girl is an elf, she should've properly investigated and punished that guard regardless of the girl's race!) which reminds me...is it ever revealed as to why that guard captain from the prologue is replaced with Jeven? (he seemed like a competent guard captain, though I suppose the plot demanded Aveline stepping in)
I also think it's interesting how the Chantry has indirectly been influencing the leadership of the Free Marches. Then again...Varric isn't exactly religious (I low-key love the fact they made him the Viscount of Kirkwall, I can just imagine him arguing with Bran and Aveline )
Although, I think a large portion of Kirkwall's problems stem from the fact the veil is so thin there. As shown in the codex entries for the Band of Three. However even if the veil was normal, I doubt Meredith would've changed much, even without later added influence of the red lyrium sword.
Though I agree with Leliana becoming the Divine...I too hope her reforms stick. Though chances are now that we're heading further north we may not hear much about it, or Bioware will ret-con several parts so they don't need to write 3 separate world states that differ too much from one another. (After all Cassandra's moderate Chantry is their default...at least in the Keep)
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