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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 16, 2020 19:09:54 GMT
Have you seen the notes on the forum about the latest book about Bioware history? It gives the essence of what Exalted March would have been. Here are the highlights:
It focused on the fallout from Kirkwall’s explosion, with Cory serving as the villain. (May be people who thought he might be behind it weren't so daft after all. I did think it was odd how the magic powering it looked red and the explosion way bigger than it should have been)
Meredith’s red lyrium statue was basically going to infest Kirkwall and it would end up [with what would end up] the red templars taking over Kirkwall and essentially being Cory’s army. (So originally the mages were never meant to be part of his army and explains why the CoJ plot was more in keeping with the lore, whilst HW was just incomprehensible. Also why Samson was his general of the red templars - clearly a carry over from EM)
Hawke would have led the fight back against Cory, having to recruit allies from factions like Isabella's Felissima Armada and the Qunari at Eastwatch. Ultimately it would have ended with Varric dying the death of a hero.
Concept art for EM explored new areas previously not depicted in the DA universe, with costumes that reflected the next steps for familiar chars. Varric was going to war, what would he have worn?
With Anders, if he survived DA2, the plan was to present a redeemed Warden. (Holy shit, Anders was meant to be redeemable and not just in our heads)
The writers sketched out plans to end it with Hawke having the option to marry their LI. This included alternate ceremonies for party members like Bethany and Sebastian if the player opted not to wed. There was even a wedding dress made for Hawke. (I hope they would have allowed Hawke to marry Anders too and male Hawkes would get a decent wedding outfit - I'm still sulking over the fact that only female Inquisitors get the option to marry.)
The destruction of a Chantry was explored in concept art as it might have happened in EM. (The notes say this concept was carried over to DAI as presumably the explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes)
I don't know about anyone else but I can see now why DG was really bummed about it being cancelled because knowing what could have been, I am too.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 16, 2020 19:38:09 GMT
I also think it's interesting how the Chantry has indirectly been influencing the leadership of the Free Marches. Then again...Varric isn't exactly religious (I low-key love the fact they made him the Viscount of Kirkwall, I can just imagine him arguing with Bran and Aveline ) Varric is actually the ideal politician as he doesn't feel strongly about anything, so at liberty to say whatever pleases people without it troubling his conscience unduly. He does seem a good administrator as well. Not being particularly religious is a plus point in his favour as well. He believes in the Maker but won't step inside a Chantry to worship. That's fine by me. See my above post. It is ironic that the cancelled Exalted March allowed Varric to go from dead hero to Viscount of his beloved city. You do get the sense that the Chantry have been trying to control the Freemarches bit by bit. They have Tantervale and the Vaels of Starkhaven were a pious family, Sebastian even more so now he is in charge and they effectively took control of Kirkwall as Dumar was always under Meredith's thumb and then once he was dead she dispensed with the charade and took over. I thought it was odd that Leliana said they didn't want the Freemarches to become another Tevinter Imperium. Even if Kirkwall had fallen to magic, the Freemarches are a group of individual city states, so it would require them all to fall for that to happen. Nevertheless, Tevinter did seem to have a very strong presence in Kirkwall. To my mind it was like the slave trade never ended, just went underground. Every Act we came into conflict with slave traders. Averline also mentioned to Fenris in either Act 2 or 3 about intercepting a slave shipment and killing those in charge. However, our family estate was the base for slave traders when we arrived there. It seems odd to me that they could be that obvious but if the Guard Captain was crooked and the Templars not bothered about the disappearance of elves and refugees from Ferelden, I suppose it is understandable. I recall one of the slavers claiming a slave was worth, I think, 1000 sovereigns or was it 100? Anyway that would mean quite sizable sums from which to bribe officials to look the other way. I hope that is something at least that Varric could put a stop to.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 16, 2020 19:50:46 GMT
Have you seen the notes on the forum about the latest book about Bioware history? It gives the essence of what Exalted March would have been. Here are the highlights:
It focused on the fallout from Kirkwall’s explosion, with Cory serving as the villain. (May be people who thought he might be behind it weren't so daft after all. I did think it was odd how the magic powering it looked red and the explosion way bigger than it should have been)
Meredith’s red lyrium statue was basically going to infest Kirkwall and it would end up [with what would end up] the red templars taking over Kirkwall and essentially being Cory’s army. (So originally the mages were never meant to be part of his army and explains why the CoJ plot was more in keeping with the lore, whilst HW was just incomprehensible. Also why Samson was his general of the red templars - clearly a carry over from EM)
Hawke would have led the fight back against Cory, having to recruit allies from factions like Isabella's Felissima Armada and the Qunari at Eastwatch. Ultimately it would have ended with Varric dying the death of a hero.
Concept art for EM explored new areas previously not depicted in the DA universe, with costumes that reflected the next steps for familiar chars. Varric was going to war, what would he have worn?
With Anders, if he survived DA2, the plan was to present a redeemed Warden. (Holy shit, Anders was meant to be redeemable and not just in our heads)
The writers sketched out plans to end it with Hawke having the option to marry their LI. This included alternate ceremonies for party members like Bethany and Sebastian if the player opted not to wed. There was even a wedding dress made for Hawke. (I hope they would have allowed Hawke to marry Anders too and male Hawkes would get a decent wedding outfit - I'm still sulking over the fact that only female Inquisitors get the option to marry.)
The destruction of a Chantry was explored in concept art as it might have happened in EM. (The notes say this concept was carried over to DAI as presumably the explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes)
I don't know about anyone else but I can see now why DG was really bummed about it being cancelled because knowing what could have been, I am too. Oh my! Where you found this? I heard already little details, but this is more I've ever seen about the deleted Exalted March DLC! And it's MUCH better than I expected!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 16, 2020 20:01:49 GMT
I also think it's interesting how the Chantry has indirectly been influencing the leadership of the Free Marches. Then again...Varric isn't exactly religious (I low-key love the fact they made him the Viscount of Kirkwall, I can just imagine him arguing with Bran and Aveline ) Varric is actually the ideal politician as he doesn't feel strongly about anything, so at liberty to say whatever pleases people without it troubling his conscience unduly. He does seem a good administrator as well. Not being particularly religious is a plus point in his favour as well. He believes in the Maker but won't step inside a Chantry to worship. That's fine by me. See my above post. It is ironic that the cancelled Exalted March allowed Varric to go from dead hero to Viscount of his beloved city. You do get the sense that the Chantry have been trying to control the Freemarches bit by bit. They have Tantervale and the Vaels of Starkhaven were a pious family, Sebastian even more so now he is in charge and they effectively took control of Kirkwall as Dumar was always under Meredith's thumb and then once he was dead she dispensed with the charade and took over. I thought it was odd that Leliana said they didn't want the Freemarches to become another Tevinter Imperium. Even if Kirkwall had fallen to magic, the Freemarches are a group of individual city states, so it would require them all to fall for that to happen. Nevertheless, Tevinter did seem to have a very strong presence in Kirkwall. To my mind it was like the slave trade never ended, just went underground. Every Act we came into conflict with slave traders. Averline also mentioned to Fenris in either Act 2 or 3 about intercepting a slave shipment and killing those in charge. However, our family estate was the base for slave traders when we arrived there. It seems odd to me that they could be that obvious but if the Guard Captain was crooked and the Templars not bothered about the disappearance of elves and refugees from Ferelden, I suppose it is understandable. I recall one of the slavers claiming a slave was worth, I think, 1000 sovereigns or was it 100? Anyway that would mean quite sizable sums from which to bribe officials to look the other way. I hope that is something at least that Varric could put a stop to. I always said, that the fact, Tevinter has more elven slaves, not only Tevinter's racism, but even the South's racism "helps" to maintain the slave trading: nobody cares, if an Alienage disappears. Perhaps, someone would relieve... – maybe this is exaggeration (one of the accusations in Landsmet was that Loghain wanted to sell the elves – but this can be also a hypocrisy: if you can keep it secret, we will not act, but openly is a sin... this is against the law... but... or perhaps Ferelden is better – i would like to believe...), but I'm sure, that to the trade needs at least two parties...
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Post by Rascoth on Nov 16, 2020 20:09:19 GMT
Have you seen the notes on the forum about the latest book about Bioware history? It gives the essence of what Exalted March would have been. Here are the highlights:
It focused on the fallout from Kirkwall’s explosion, with Cory serving as the villain. (May be people who thought he might be behind it weren't so daft after all. I did think it was odd how the magic powering it looked red and the explosion way bigger than it should have been)
Meredith’s red lyrium statue was basically going to infest Kirkwall and it would end up [with what would end up] the red templars taking over Kirkwall and essentially being Cory’s army. (So originally the mages were never meant to be part of his army and explains why the CoJ plot was more in keeping with the lore, whilst HW was just incomprehensible. Also why Samson was his general of the red templars - clearly a carry over from EM)
Hawke would have led the fight back against Cory, having to recruit allies from factions like Isabella's Felissima Armada and the Qunari at Eastwatch. Ultimately it would have ended with Varric dying the death of a hero.
Concept art for EM explored new areas previously not depicted in the DA universe, with costumes that reflected the next steps for familiar chars. Varric was going to war, what would he have worn?
With Anders, if he survived DA2, the plan was to present a redeemed Warden. (Holy shit, Anders was meant to be redeemable and not just in our heads)
The writers sketched out plans to end it with Hawke having the option to marry their LI. This included alternate ceremonies for party members like Bethany and Sebastian if the player opted not to wed. There was even a wedding dress made for Hawke. (I hope they would have allowed Hawke to marry Anders too and male Hawkes would get a decent wedding outfit - I'm still sulking over the fact that only female Inquisitors get the option to marry.)
The destruction of a Chantry was explored in concept art as it might have happened in EM. (The notes say this concept was carried over to DAI as presumably the explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes)
I don't know about anyone else but I can see now why DG was really bummed about it being cancelled because knowing what could have been, I am too. Oh my! Where you found this? I heard already little details, but this is more I've ever seen about the deleted Exalted March DLC! And it's MUCH better than I expected! People (mostly Hrungr) has been posting snippets from BioWare: Stories and Secrets from 25 Years of Game Development book that came out recently. It's just some of it. You can find more in this thread, if you're interested
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Nov 16, 2020 20:11:05 GMT
Have you seen the notes on the forum about the latest book about Bioware history? It gives the essence of what Exalted March would have been. Here are the highlights: It focused on the fallout from Kirkwall’s explosion, with Cory serving as the villain. ( May be people who thought he might be behind it weren't so daft after all. I did think it was odd how the magic powering it looked red and the explosion way bigger than it should have been) Meredith’s red lyrium statue was basically going to infest Kirkwall and it would end up [with what would end up] the red templars taking over Kirkwall and essentially being Cory’s army. ( So originally the mages were never meant to be part of his army and explains why the CoJ plot was more in keeping with the lore, whilst HW was just incomprehensible. Also why Samson was his general of the red templars - clearly a carry over from EM) Hawke would have led the fight back against Cory, having to recruit allies from factions like Isabella's Felissima Armada and the Qunari at Eastwatch. Ultimately it would have ended with Varric dying the death of a hero. Concept art for EM explored new areas previously not depicted in the DA universe, with costumes that reflected the next steps for familiar chars. Varric was going to war, what would he have worn? With Anders, if he survived DA2, the plan was to present a redeemed Warden. ( Holy shit, Anders was meant to be redeemable and not just in our heads)The writers sketched out plans to end it with Hawke having the option to marry their LI. This included alternate ceremonies for party members like Bethany and Sebastian if the player opted not to wed. There was even a wedding dress made for Hawke. ( I hope they would have allowed Hawke to marry Anders too and male Hawkes would get a decent wedding outfit - I'm still sulking over the fact that only female Inquisitors get the option to marry.) The destruction of a Chantry was explored in concept art as it might have happened in EM. ( The notes say this concept was carried over to DAI as presumably the explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes) I don't know about anyone else but I can see now why DG was really bummed about it being cancelled because knowing what could have been, I am too. That sounds incredible cool. I would rather have had another game with Hawke than the inqui (although I'm not hating the inqui like a lot of players seem to do, but they are not Hawke). The only thing, I don't like about that is Varric dying - Varric can't die, not in my fluffy little world (sorry, not the Varric fan thread, I know). But the red lyrium plot and Cory taking over Kirkwall would have made for a great story and it would have given us more continuity.
I also like the Anders redemption arc - I love those, when well written. Now I really want that DA game.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 4,824 Likes: 11,923
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ladyofnemesis
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 17, 2020 12:32:53 GMT
I always said, that the fact, Tevinter has more elven slaves, not only Tevinter's racism, but even the South's racism "helps" to maintain the slave trading: nobody cares, if an Alienage disappears. Perhaps, someone would relieve... – maybe this is exaggeration (one of the accusations in Landsmet was that Loghain wanted to sell the elves – but this can be also a hypocrisy: if you can keep it secret, we will not act, but openly is a sin... this is against the law... but... or perhaps Ferelden is better – i would like to believe...), but I'm sure, that to the trade needs at least two parties... My Tabris is still angry about that
I mean, during the Landsmeet you can point it out that Loghain was selling elves into slavery...no one cares I still wish you could lay everything out during the Landsmeet, but you can only present 3 pieces before Loghain interjects with 'where's my daughter?'
so in my canon I don't have my Tabris tell the Landsmeet about the slavery business, simply because she knows no one will care. but in my head canon you can bet your boots my girl will tear into anyone trying to justify the disappearance of her people. Chances are that -had it been an option- she'd have killed Loghain in cold blood before the duel part took place...and then everyone would get angry and Eamon would have to get everyone to take a chill pill
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Now stealin' more kidz.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 17, 2020 16:22:13 GMT
I mean, during the Landsmeet you can point it out that Loghain was selling elves into slavery...no one cares I recall watching a video with an elf (not sure if it was a Tabris or Mahariel, but definitely not a Surana) questioning a recruited Loghain's motives, and he basically does a rude "would have died anyway if the Darkspawn reached Denerim". Now I want to know if you can ask him if he would have thought about selling some Bannorn peasants as well.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2020 19:22:35 GMT
I mean, during the Landsmeet you can point it out that Loghain was selling elves into slavery...no one cares Actually I've discovered that's not true. Apparently if the Tortured Noble quest is not completed for some reason (for example I suppose you could free Oswyn but not meet his father in the tavern) then Bann Sighard will support the Warden against Loghain if they bring up selling elves into slavery regardless of the fate of his son. I was doubly glad I was able to save his son when I read that. Contrast that with the Reverend Mother who only denounces Loghain if you bring up using an apostate to poison Arl Eamon but apparently doesn't object to him selling elves into slavery, even though it is meant to be official Chantry policy that slavery is illegal anywhere in the south. Then again, the slave trade seemed to be thriving in Kirkwall so perhaps it is only illegal to own slaves in the south but selling them to be used elsewhere is okay. he basically does a rude "would have died anyway if the Darkspawn reached Denerim That's hardly surprising considering he'd already used the Dorian justification that conditions are so bad in the alienage the elves will be better off as slaves in Tevinter. Now whose fault is that? Oh yes, that's right, your daughter who claims to have been ruling through Cailan all these years. Plus you and your precious Maric who were only too happy to accept the aid of the Night Elves and then do nothing for their people after the war. To be honest, the only justification my Tabris could come up with for keeping Loghain alive is that so many people still saw him as a hero that an elf sentencing him to death was only likely to end up rebounding on their people. Plus making him a Grey Warden is a long term death sentence with a rather unpleasant period in between. Being plagued by nightmares is not great. My other other less diplomatic Tabris just killed him and put Alistair on the throne. To her that was poetic justice.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2020 19:44:40 GMT
I'm sure, that to the trade needs at least two parties... See my above comments. It has occurred to me that perhaps it is a bit of legal jiggery pokery on the Chantry's part and it is simply illegal to OWN slaves in the south but trading in people is okay. Although according to DG's comic series Isabella did chuck a ship load of slaves overboard when in danger of being boarded by the Orlesian navy because she says the Orlesians hang slavers. So may the Orlesians have some morality after all. Or may be they want them around to be their servants, drudges and prostitutes. That story was curious as well. Had she been involved in two incidents where her cargo turned out to be slaves? Or was the story she told Hawke a glossing over of the truth about that original lost shipment? I mean if she had really felt so bad about drowning that first lot of slaves, would she not have been extra careful about checking what sort of cargo she was signing on for in the future? I still can't understand how Danarius could get away with marching into Kirkwall, with several soldiers in tow, and essentially try and reclaim his "property" in broad daylight when the city was meant to be under martial law by Templars. "Hey Meredith, if you are worried about blood mages, there's a genuine Tevinter Magister here trying to kidnap one of our residents. Oh look, he just summoned a load of shades in the middle of a popular tavern. I'm sure that needed blood magic. Still, I'm sure your Templars have got better things to do terrorising ordinary citizens who simply want to protect their relatives, to be bothered preventing this northern heretic from exercising his magic openly and endangering the regular patrons. Don't worry, Hawke will deal with it, as usual."
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2020 21:06:19 GMT
I'm sure, that to the trade needs at least two parties... See my above comments. It has occurred to me that perhaps it is a bit of legal jiggery pokery on the Chantry's part and it is simply illegal to OWN slaves in the south but trading in people is okay. Although according to DG's comic series Isabella did chuck a ship load of slaves overboard when in danger of being boarded by the Orlesian navy because she says the Orlesians hang slavers. So may the Orlesians have some morality after all. Or may be they want them around to be their servants, drudges and prostitutes. That story was curious as well. Had she been involved in two incidents where her cargo turned out to be slaves? Or was the story she told Hawke a glossing over of the truth about that original lost shipment? I mean if she had really felt so bad about drowning that first lot of slaves, would she not have been extra careful about checking what sort of cargo she was signing on for in the future? I still can't understand how Danarius could get away with marching into Kirkwall, with several soldiers in tow, and essentially try and reclaim his "property" in broad daylight when the city was meant to be under martial law by Templars. "Hey Meredith, if you are worried about blood mages, there's a genuine Tevinter Magister here trying to kidnap one of our residents. Oh look, he just summoned a load of shades in the middle of a popular tavern. I'm sure that needed blood magic. Still, I'm sure your Templars have got better things to do terrorising ordinary citizens who simply want to protect their relatives, to be bothered preventing this northern heretic from exercising his magic openly and endangering the regular patrons. Don't worry, Hawke will deal with it, as usual." Remember: Aveline had to cover Fenris because he "borrowed" the estate what was rent by a Magister... but I'm not sure they knew about, who is exactly who paid for the estate, as I remember, he rented the estate, not by his own name – but maybe i'm wrong. Anyway: seems Fenris was the "criminal" here, not a citizen, seems not even "our resident" – just an elven slave, who came to Kirkwall, and lives in a mansion against the holy law... I wouldn't even surprise if Meredith would give him to Danarius, just as she wrote an apology letter to Gascard DuPuis – and punished her own man to investigate a mage's disappearing – and "harassed" a nobleman because of "some ridiculous assumption"... PS: I know, this is wild, but also we saw: this is how Kirkwall worked...
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2020 21:55:30 GMT
PS: I know, this is wild, but also we saw: this is how Kirkwall worked... I'm not sure that Danarius ever officially rented the property but if he did it was probably not in his own name. I remember Fenris saying it belonged to a merchant, who may have simply been "persuaded" to let Danarius use it. However, regardless of Fenris' status within the city, my point is that Danarius had no rights there and unlike Gaspard du Puis, who was an Orlesian noble, Danarius was from Tevinter and the southern Chantry only called off their Exalted Marches against them because of the more pressing matter of the 4th Blight getting in the way and then the Qunari invasion. There is no love lost between the two nations and considering the Divine's Left Hand said the Divine was concerned about Kirkwall becoming the first stage in a Tevinter takeover of the Freemarches, I hardly think Meredith would have in any way co-operated with a mage from Tevinter, let alone a Magister. All mages outside the Circle are apostates but a Magister would be a maleficarum pure and simple. However, I note this from the thread where I got my previous information concerning the writing of DA2 and the exceptionally short development timescale: They had no time to review even the main plot. Mike Laidlaw pitched the idea of 3 stories taking place at different points in the PC’s life, tied together by Varric’s recollections of events. DG rolled with this and made one presentation on the idea. This presentation was then approved and off they went.
As they were writing DG realized that there was going to be no oversight and that everything was going to be a ‘first draft’. “Because nobody had time.” He sat down with the writers and said “Look, here are the conditions we’re working under. A lot of what we’re putting out is gonna be raw. We’re not going to get the editing we need. We’re not going to get the kind of iteration we need. So I’m going to trust you all to do your best work.”
This explains why some parts don't seem to make sense and the reason contradictions in some plot elements weren't sorted out by peer review is that simply there wasn't any because they didn't have time. As the entire story was meant to be from Varric's perspective, I suppose it is best to assume that on occasion he left bits out for dramatic effect. So may be some Templars did investigate what was happening at the Hanged Man or had been watching Danarius but since they didn't get involved in the actual fight, Varric thought it wasn't worth mentioning. It also means that the bits in Anders' story that don't seem to hang together properly might have been ironed out with more time to edit the material but it is good to know they were likely not intentional by the writer but the result of it being effectively a first draft which she might have changed had she been given more time.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2020 22:11:14 GMT
PS: I know, this is wild, but also we saw: this is how Kirkwall worked... I'm not sure that Danarius ever officially rented the property but if he did it was probably not in his own name. I remember Fenris saying it belonged to a merchant, who may have simply been "persuaded" to let Danarius use it. However, regardless of Fenris' status within the city, my point is that Danarius had no rights there and unlike Gaspard du Puis, who was an Orlesian noble, Danarius was from Tevinter and the southern Chantry only called off their Exalted Marches against them because of the more pressing matter of the 4th Blight getting in the way and then the Qunari invasion. There is no love lost between the two nations and considering the Divine's Left Hand said the Divine was concerned about Kirkwall becoming the first stage in a Tevinter takeover of the Freemarches, I hardly think Meredith would have in any way co-operated with a mage from Tevinter, let alone a Magister. All mages outside the Circle are apostates but a Magister would be a maleficarum pure and simple. However, I note this from the thread where I got my previous information concerning the writing of DA2 and the exceptionally short development timescale: They had no time to review even the main plot. Mike Laidlaw pitched the idea of 3 stories taking place at different points in the PC’s life, tied together by Varric’s recollections of events. DG rolled with this and made one presentation on the idea. This presentation was then approved and off they went.
As they were writing DG realized that there was going to be no oversight and that everything was going to be a ‘first draft’. “Because nobody had time.” He sat down with the writers and said “Look, here are the conditions we’re working under. A lot of what we’re putting out is gonna be raw. We’re not going to get the editing we need. We’re not going to get the kind of iteration we need. So I’m going to trust you all to do your best work.”
This explains why some parts don't seem to make sense and the reason contradictions in some plot elements weren't sorted out by peer review is that simply there wasn't any because they didn't have time. As the entire story was meant to be from Varric's perspective, I suppose it is best to assume that on occasion he left bits out for dramatic effect. So may be some Templars did investigate what was happening at the Hanged Man or had been watching Danarius but since they didn't get involved in the actual fight, Varric thought it wasn't worth mentioning. It also means that the bits in Anders' story that don't seem to hang together properly might have been ironed out with more time to edit the material but it is good to know they were likely not intentional by the writer but the result of it being effectively a first draft which she might have changed had she been given more time. I would rather say, that Danarius rented the mansion incognito – because of Fenris. Like Fenris pointed to this, as I remember. Tevinter is not in war with the South – Tevinter Magisters are able to travel here – in the Alienage, the Magister were here for "cure" the elves. Oh, it was an exaggeration, of course – BUT: while Gascard DuPuis as a Southern noble broke the law, a Tevinter Magister being a mage in Kirkwall outside the Circle, didn't break any law (until he started to use his blood magic, of course...) I agree this doesn't make sense (Hadriana does...), I suppose only they should have to change here is the place...
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 17, 2020 22:26:58 GMT
I mean, during the Landsmeet you can point it out that Loghain was selling elves into slavery...no one cares Actually I've discovered that's not true. Apparently if the Tortured Noble quest is not completed for some reason (for example I suppose you could free Oswyn but not meet his father in the tavern) then Bann Sighard will support the Warden against Loghain if they bring up selling elves into slavery regardless of the fate of his son. I was doubly glad I was able to save his son when I read that. Contrast that with the Reverend Mother who only denounces Loghain if you bring up using an apostate to poison Arl Eamon but apparently doesn't object to him selling elves into slavery, even though it is meant to be official Chantry policy that slavery is illegal anywhere in the south. Then again, the slave trade seemed to be thriving in Kirkwall so perhaps it is only illegal to own slaves in the south but selling them to be used elsewhere is okay. yeah, I kinda purposely left him out because he's the only one who cares. Considering Eamon is all 'I'm appalled such a thing could exist' I'd assume he'd give us his support as well if he hadn't been the one to push the Landsmeet (aka. would've been a neutral party)
but yeah, my Tabris will be eternally grateful at least someone spoke out...and she's making sure it's never going to happen again (aka. I made her Bann...and in my head canon she eventually meets and befriends Fenris)
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 18, 2020 2:47:15 GMT
he basically does a rude "would have died anyway if the Darkspawn reached Denerim That's hardly surprising considering he'd already used the Dorian justification that conditions are so bad in the alienage the elves will be better off as slaves in Tevinter. Now whose fault is that? Oh yes, that's right, your daughter who claims to have been ruling through Cailan all these years. Plus you and your precious Maric who were only too happy to accept the aid of the Night Elves and then do nothing for their people after the war. To be honest, the only justification my Tabris could come up with for keeping Loghain alive is that so many people still saw him as a hero that an elf sentencing him to death was only likely to end up rebounding on their people. Plus making him a Grey Warden is a long term death sentence with a rather unpleasant period in between. Being plagued by nightmares is not great. My other other less diplomatic Tabris just killed him and put Alistair on the throne. To her that was poetic justice. Hmm... I guess then there's no way to call him out on his casual racism... I mean, these Bannorn citizens would have surely died anyway as well.
Thinking of that, do we know anything on the actual citizenship status of City elves? I just saw someone claiming elsewhere that in Ferelden, it is actually illegal to defend an elf from human aggression, though I don't know if that referred to the City elf OS and Vaughn specifically.
So may the Orlesians have some morality after all. Or may be they want them around to be their servants, drudges and prostitutes. Hah, I would not put it past the orlesian military specifically to participate in slave hunts. Or it could be a case of "We are the goods guys! There is no slavery in Orlais! Don't even think of suggesting that. Move along, nothing to see here." A bit like some cultures saying that certain crimes just don't happen because the society is oh-so exceptional.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 18, 2020 2:52:59 GMT
Lol at people griping about and refusing to work Meredith after she blackmails, yet loving and agreeing to work with Anders when he blackmails too. The difference is that Meredith is in a position of authority and is abusing her power by threatening Hawke/Bethany in that way. You have no option but to do what she wants as a result. With Anders it is purely a personal matter and you are at liberty to tell him you will not do that for him if you wish. He might get snarky as a result but he does not threaten to harm either Hawke or their sibling as a result of the refusal. Yes, this. Honestly, after her straightforwards threat in at the start of "On the Loose", I was like "Uhm, Elsa, please leave. Now, do we want to settle this here and now, Meredith? The courtyard's large enough."
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 18, 2020 13:48:23 GMT
Thinking of that, do we know anything on the actual citizenship status of City elves? I just saw someone claiming elsewhere that in Ferelden, it is actually illegal to defend an elf from human aggression, though I don't know if that referred to the City elf OS and Vaughn specifically. I'd heard this too and I think it was in the original DAO game guide. It is not in the Core Rule Book, so I think it must have been something that was quietly forgotten about in later games. However, it would explain why Duncan just stands by and lets Vaughan kidnap the wedding party. I know Grey Wardens are meant to be politically neutral but that to intervene would have been simple justice if the law supported him. The same argument would apply to the elves trying to protect themselves. The fact that you are considered in the wrong even though you/your fiancee were kidnapped and your friend raped, plus we are told Vaughan had done that sort of thing before, suggests that the law was weighted against defending the elves from this sort of thing. However, I had seen alternative writings suggesting the elves in Ferelden think themselves better off in Ferelden than elsewhere, which doesn't speak well for other nations if that law preventing defence of elves was in place in Ferelden. However, we do know that one of Averline's guards raped an elven girl in Kirkwall and she didn't apparently consider it important enough to investigate if the "rumours" were true until the girl's brothers took the law into their own hands. (It was rather hypocritical of her to object to the brothers doing this when her friend Hawke has been taking matters into their own hands ever since they reached Kirkwall often with Averline's assistance). In Masked Empire it would seem there was a definite prejudice towards elves and of course it was said that the Chevaliers use killing random elves as a training exercise, so again it would seem the law allows this. Mind you, we know from DAO that Chevaliers are equally contemptuous of the human commoners and can abuse them with impunity. Probably something to do with a noble's divine right to rule or some such nonsense. Or it could be a case of "We are the goods guys! There is no slavery in Orlais! Don't even think of suggesting that. Move along, nothing to see here." There is a codex about slavery that accuses them of double standards written by Sister Petrine. Slavery still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elves lured into ships by the prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? And humans fall prey to this, too.
If they're lucky, they end up in Orlais, which has only "servants." Most nobles treat them decently because they are afraid of admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal.
So according to her the fact is servants in Orlais are little better than slaves, certainly so far as their rights are concerned. Well, look how Celene treated a whole household of servants when she wanted to conceal her plotting against the Emperor. The fact that a noble can get away with murdering their servants in this way and it is considered admirable expediency under the rules of the Game, the lives of the servants being considered that expendable, only serves to show that it is rank hypocrisy for the nobles of Orlais to consider themselves mortally superior to Tevinter. At least the nobles in the north are honest about it. I think if Dorian had said this rather than using the Loghain argument to defend slavery, I might have been less annoyed with him. Then again, I feel there is little difference morally between using bards and poison to remove your political opponents and blood magic. It is simply that apparently the Chantry don't have a problem with the former but have outlawed the latter. Yes, this. Honestly, after her straightforwards threat in at the start of "On the Loose", I was like "Uhm, Elsa, please leave. If you aren't invested in backing the nobles in their rebellion or Anders in his free the slaves campaign, I really don't know what there is to keep Hawke in Kirkwall at this point. Why not take King Alistair up on his offer and return home to Ferelden, particularly if you are a mage? Still because I did want to help both the nobles and the mages, that is why I justified my Hawke sticking around. I did wonder sometimes just how long people would have allowed things to get progressively worse under Meredith if Anders hadn't blown the Chantry sky high. I also do think that putting a bomb under Meredith, kidnapping the Grand Cleric and then forcing her to make you Viscount, was a decent alternative to his plan.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 18, 2020 14:57:17 GMT
Some nobles try to ally with Hawke, they killed some Templars together, offered their sword to Hawke but nothing else happened. By the way, if the noble rebellion would happen, it would be just as bloody as the explosion and the mage rebellion was. Plus, the Kirkwall –especially with that past– would be stigmatized heretic, enemy of the Chantry.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 18, 2020 15:58:52 GMT
Some nobles try to ally with Hawke, they killed some Templars together, offered their sword to Hawke but nothing else happened. I think this may be because of the cancelled Exalted March. May be they are one of the factions that will come to the aid of Hawke in their battle against Corypheus and the Red Templars. Or may be it was intended they would substitute for other assistance that you only get if you complete the requisite side quests. So on my latest run I had both Zevran and Nathaniel helping out but I seem to recall someone else stepped in if Nathaniel wasn't rescued. Anyway, the main thing is some nobles were willing to help and I liked the fact that we could help them. After all, before they confided in us we also had to get rid of one of Meredith's death squads that was harassing the relative of a mage for sheltering them and also destroy Meredith's secret lyrium store, so it was worth speaking out against Meredith. (First game I remained neutral but you always end up worse off for doing this, so I ignore diplomacy and just go for outright confrontation.) By the way, if the noble rebellion would happen, it would be just as bloody as the explosion and the mage rebellion was. Any rebellion would result in bloodshed as that is the nature of them. Those in charge rarely give up peacefully, except in rare cases like Starkhaven, and rebels know that there is no going back once you have made your move (as Shartan reminds the elven slaves when they have second thoughts). The Arishok attacking also resulted in many deaths and there would likely have been more, or large numbers of people made mindless drones by qamek if he had succeeded. If the Divine had ordered an Exalted March on Kirkwall in the ordinary course of events (not involving Corypheus) that would have resulted in many deaths too, not just of mages but innocents caught in the crossfire, which is why Elthina tries to prevent it. In the end of course apparently the Divine does nothing in the aftermath and doesn't even bother investigating properly until 3 years later. So in some ways you could argue the bomb did Kirkwall a favour as the Exalted March came to nothing, they didn't have Orlais invading Kirkwall on the pretext of serving the Chantry and the city retained its independence, having got rid of their Templar overlord Meredith. A much better outcome than continuing under Templar martial law indefinitely. Then to cap it all they get Viscount Varric, who is probably a lot better than their rulers since the beginning of the Dragon Age and probably even further back than that. So from a political viewpoint Anders' rebellion was a success, even though that wasn't his actual aim.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 20, 2020 21:34:18 GMT
I've been playing through Legacy again, this time with Fenris and Bethany alongside Anders and Hawke. I must admit that whilst I like playing a mage, I do prefer having Bethany as a sibling, particularly as both Anders and Fenris get along well with her. I'm still a bit puzzled why Corypheus has no effect on Bethany considering she is both a Grey Warden and a mage and the only conclusion I can come to is that it has something to do with being from Malcolm's bloodline. Otherwise you would think she'd at least mention she could hear something even if it wasn't particularly affecting her.
As with Mark of the Assassin, Anders and Fenris seem more mellow in their antagonism than when they are in Kirkwall. This is one of my favourite exchanges that involves them:
Larius: Yes.. I can show you out.. Yes Hawke: Because I always like to follow the advice of tainted crazy people. Fenris: Never stopped you before! Anders: Excuse me ?!?! Fenris: Nevermind!
I do find it sad though when Anders says about how seeing Larius brings back his awareness that he is still a Grey Warden with all that entails followed by:
Anders: You should find someone else, love. You don't want all the ugliness I'm going to bring into your life
Mind you since I left doing it until after the end of Act 3 I really felt like saying: "That ship's already sailed love. After blowing the Chantry, starting a rebellion and being hunted as outlaws, how much uglier can it get?" (Then I get my answer when he attacks me)
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Post by Catilina on Nov 20, 2020 23:32:55 GMT
I've been playing through Legacy again, this time with Fenris and Bethany alongside Anders and Hawke. I must admit that whilst I like playing a mage, I do prefer having Bethany as a sibling, particularly as both Anders and Fenris get along well with her. I'm still a bit puzzled why Corypheus has no effect on Bethany considering she is both a Grey Warden and a mage and the only conclusion I can come to is that it has something to do with being from Malcolm's bloodline. Otherwise you would think she'd at least mention she could hear something even if it wasn't particularly affecting her.
As with Mark of the Assassin, Anders and Fenris seem more mellow in their antagonism than when they are in Kirkwall. This is one of my favourite exchanges that involves them:
Larius: Yes.. I can show you out.. Yes Hawke: Because I always like to follow the advice of tainted crazy people. Fenris: Never stopped you before! Anders: Excuse me ?!?! Fenris: Nevermind!
I do find it sad though when Anders says about how seeing Larius brings back his awareness that he is still a Grey Warden with all that entails followed by:
Anders: You should find someone else, love. You don't want all the ugliness I'm going to bring into your life
Mind you since I left doing it until after the end of Act 3 I really felt like saying: "That ship's already sailed love. After blowing the Chantry, starting a rebellion and being hunted as outlaws, how much uglier can it get?" (Then I get my answer when he attacks me) I do LOVE that conversation "You should find someone else, love. You don't want all the ugliness I'm going to bring into your life" with purple and red Hawke. "Nobody's perfect" and "Not a chance!" to me one of the most beautiful declaration of love in DA – the ACCEPTATION (this is why the title of this thread). I just love it. The blue one is the helping Hawke, but I still love better this two.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 21, 2020 19:36:06 GMT
A few things have struck me from the end of Legacy, speaking with Corypheus and the Tevinter amulet. First, that the Tevinter documents the codex says he has been studying clearly must include historical records. I very much doubt the Chantry would encourage the Circle mages to have such knowledge about ancient Old God worship. Yet Anders recognises it as having the symbols of an ancient sect of Dumat. Either that or Justice imparted the information.
The second is that Anders refers to it as a sect of Dumat worshipers. Now everyone knows in ancient Tevinter they worshiped the Old Gods but I've not heard them referred to as sects before. Which makes me think he means a separate sect within Dumat's worshipers. Now that fits with an idea I had in the Crazy Theory Section that he wasn't High Priest of the temple in Minrathous but probably of a shrine much further south. It also fits with Dorian's research about his family which suggests that Corypheus was a minor Magister at best. Now that seemed unlikely if he was the main High Priest of Dumat in Minrathous but makes sense if he was the leader of a minor sect of Dumat in the south, as does the idea put forward by his servant's memories that worship of the Old Gods was failing and that caused Corypheus to panic. That always seemed odd to me because there was another memory of a Dumat worshiper which suggested it was still as strong as ever until Dumat rose against them and even after the First Blight Old God worship was still strong among the ruling elite, so much so that Hessarian had to purge them with a bloodbath of those Altus who refused to tow the line with his new state religion. However, if Corypheus was worried about falling attendances at the shrine of his sect of Dumat that makes more sense.
Lastly, I think that first confused speech he makes about it not looking like dwarven lands is not referring to his current location but is recalling the time when he awoke in the Deep Roads after returning from the Black City. He says how they look empty and he finds that odd. I wonder if he did in fact spend some time unconscious after his return so he only awoke after the dwarves had been driven from the Deep roads by the darkspawn. I also wonder if he wasn't actually misled by Dumat when promised the power of the gods because it was contained in the Golden City, that power being the Darkness that they discovered there. I'm still convinced that the empty throne was that of Mythal not the Maker (or she was in fact the deity that spoke to Andraste). Mythal was known for her cities so it would make sense that the ultimate city was "made" by her.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 22, 2020 17:20:00 GMT
A few things have struck me from the end of Legacy, speaking with Corypheus and the Tevinter amulet. First, that the Tevinter documents the codex says he has been studying clearly must include historical records. I very much doubt the Chantry would encourage the Circle mages to have such knowledge about ancient Old God worship. Yet Anders recognises it as having the symbols of an ancient sect of Dumat. Either that or Justice imparted the information.
The second is that Anders refers to it as a sect of Dumat worshipers. Now everyone knows in ancient Tevinter they worshiped the Old Gods but I've not heard them referred to as sects before. Which makes me think he means a separate sect within Dumat's worshipers. Now that fits with an idea I had in the Crazy Theory Section that he wasn't High Priest of the temple in Minrathous but probably of a shrine much further south. It also fits with Dorian's research about his family which suggests that Corypheus was a minor Magister at best. Now that seemed unlikely if he was the main High Priest of Dumat in Minrathous but makes sense if he was the leader of a minor sect of Dumat in the south, as does the idea put forward by his servant's memories that worship of the Old Gods was failing and that caused Corypheus to panic. That always seemed odd to me because there was another memory of a Dumat worshiper which suggested it was still as strong as ever until Dumat rose against them and even after the First Blight Old God worship was still strong among the ruling elite, so much so that Hessarian had to purge them with a bloodbath of those Altus who refused to tow the line with his new state religion. However, if Corypheus was worried about falling attendances at the shrine of his sect of Dumat that makes more sense.
Lastly, I think that first confused speech he makes about it not looking like dwarven lands is not referring to his current location but is recalling the time when he awoke in the Deep Roads after returning from the Black City. He says how they look empty and he finds that odd. I wonder if he did in fact spend some time unconscious after his return so he only awoke after the dwarves had been driven from the Deep roads by the darkspawn. I also wonder if he wasn't actually misled by Dumat when promised the power of the gods because it was contained in the Golden City, that power being the Darkness that they discovered there. I'm still convinced that the empty throne was that of Mythal not the Maker (or she was in fact the deity that spoke to Andraste). Mythal was known for her cities so it would make sense that the ultimate city was "made" by her. I think, why not? They can teach about it as some bad thing, the symbolism is a part of it. I'm sure in the Circle were codexes about the ancient Tevinter, like negative examples. And forbidden knowledge as well: Irving used those to bait the apprentices and to discover the ones who show more interest toward those, than the others... Even the Inquisitor's library has books about Tevinter, just listen Dorian. Also: Anders desperately looked for anything that proves, the mages will not necessarily abuse their power, if they gain their freedom. (This is why the Tevinter Chantry Amulet is two-edged gift –like the others as well– while as Hawke said: this can be a symbol of freedom of mages – but with the worst thing what the freedom of mages can bring...) Anyway, I think, the Circle mages know the Tevinter symbolism – this is the part of the Chantry teaching about the Blight. The wording: sect is a pejorative name of a (mostly minor) religion, cult etc. Anders hates the cults, sects, absolutely imaginable he would name them "sect" even if don't know, this was a sect... But as I wrote, I think, the Circles have books about the Blight and ancient Tevinter, and this is a part of the educational material. But in the reflection of Chant of Light. When people say: look, Anders doesn't even believe, the Magisters (mages) caused the Blight, because of he idolizes Tevinter, just remember what Wynne said in Ostagar (first meeting with her): maybe, the mages caused the blight, maybe this is just a teaching tale of the Chantry about the excessive pride... About Corypheus, yes, this is very interesting as he woke up: I would like to know more about this Corypheus. I assumed more about him, and I was disappointed in DAI. (Mythal's throne? This is interesting! – I'm bad at theories, I didn't even heard about it.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 23, 2020 20:03:09 GMT
When people say: look, Anders doesn't even believe, the Magisters (mages) caused the Blight, because of he idolizes Tevinter, just remember what Wynne said in Ostagar (first meeting with her): maybe, the mages caused the blight, maybe this is just a teaching tale of the Chantry about the excessive pride... It should also be remembered that Anders is a Grey Warden and they have never entirely bought into the Chantry version of the origin of the blights. After all they have a lot of dealings with the dwarves who are also skeptical about the Chantry version about where and when it arrived in Thedas. In the Core Rule Book it even states that the wardens believed that some followers may have found Dumat before they went to the City. Corypheus definitely seems to have been in touch with his god, or at least something that was whispering to him in his dreams. He expected the city to be golden but found it already black. Now the Chantry maintain it was the Magisters' sin that corrupted it but that definitely seems untrue. They also teach that it was a sin to even enter the Fade physically but we have done that with no repercussions, so it isn't unreasonable to doubt the Chantry version of events (even if Anders didn't know about the last bit). Also, according to Dorian even modern Tevene deny they had anything to do with starting the Blights, so if Anders had been studying Tevinter manuscripts it is likely they would have said that it was southern Chantry propaganda, although that seems odd considering the Canticle of Silence with the most detail of the assault on the Golden City was actually written by Hessarian and rejected by a southern divine as his propaganda. So may be that has been the view of the Black Divine too, which would make sense if the southern Divine rejected it before the schism and then adopted the idea afterwards. So I don't think it unreasonable of Anders to doubt to current official version of the Chantry and, as we can point out, it still doesn't support punishing all mages for the sin of a few over a thousand years ago.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 2, 2020 19:24:54 GMT
Some concept arts from the cancelled Exalted March:
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