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Post by Iddy on Mar 5, 2019 18:16:52 GMT
That is, do you believe the writers meant it to be an actual possibility?
Or something undeniably refuted by the revelations of "Here Lies the Abyss"? From the plot's perspective.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 5, 2019 18:24:35 GMT
You mean whether they are the Herald, or not? I think it's meant to be ambiguous, and I like that it is. My Inquisitor, who is Andrastian, struggles with his faith and is not satisfied at all with the non-answers he was given in the Fade.
The over-arching theme of DAI is faith, so the fact that it is ambiguous seems fully intentional.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 5, 2019 18:29:02 GMT
If your character believes in the Maker, that the world and events are fashioned by him, then it was his will for you to have the anchor. And if you don't believe in the Maker, then nothing has changed. Not verbatim, but the spirit in the fade says something like that. I think that's as close to an actual possibility as we're going to get.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 5, 2019 18:53:49 GMT
You mean whether they are the Herald, or not? Yeah.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 5, 2019 19:10:32 GMT
That is, do you believe the writers meant it to be an actual possibility? If you mean symbolically, then they may have meant it to be true. The reason people even give us the title in the first place is because they think the Breach is fulfilling Drakon's prophesy of the end of the world. Since at the end of the Canticle of Exaltations, Andraste does physically return to the earth, the idea that she is waiting in the Fade and sent the PC back into the world as "Herald" of her imminent return is consistent with this. I believe Flemeth also refers to us as a herald of a new age. Whether she is mocking the idea or not is open to question. She seems to have been hinting that there are going to be major changes to the world since DA2. Did she just mean culturally or something more? After all, she says she occasionally nudges history the way she wants things to go and she is aware of Solas' return, so both she and the writers could have been hinting that the Herald was about to usher in a new age and since we are barely half way through the normal Dragon Age, may be it is a reference to Solas intending to drop the Veil.
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Post by Reznore on Mar 5, 2019 19:19:40 GMT
That is, do you believe the writers meant it to be an actual possibility? Or something undeniably refuted by the revelations of "Here Lies the Abyss"? From the plot's perspective. It's refuted imho.
People said you were the Herald of Andraste because they saw a glowy woman, and your survival was miraculous. Turns out the glowy woman was a spirit mimicking the Divine. There's no sign of Andraste anywhere, which I thought was a disappointment, because I would have welcomed some ambiguity.
You're left with a vague question about fate. What is it? Does stuff just happen? Do you make your own fate? Does some higher being does? It is an interesting question for sure specially with the fade thrown in...but it doesn't leave a lot of room for Andraste as a character. I mean it could also be the Maker, spirits, people's will and faith, Andraste, Flemeth, what's left of the Evanuris, the Inquisitor's dead grandma. The "Believe what you want to believe" felt really flat for me.
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Post by sageoflife on Mar 5, 2019 20:53:09 GMT
I like that they let us choose that for ourselves, and that Andrastian Inquisitors can believe that they weren't chosen.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 5, 2019 21:01:14 GMT
I like that they let us choose that for ourselves, and that Andrastian Inquisitors can believe that they weren't chosen. Yep, this is my Inquisitor's view. He sees it as approaching blasphemy to suggest he is anywhere near the level of Andraste. In addition, the Maker is said to have "abandoned" Thedas, so the idea that He is intervening now conflicts with what he's been taught. Even though he is Andrastian, he has a lot of cognitive dissonance throughout the game as a result of all that.
DAI's elements of faith are one of my favorite parts of the game.
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Post by sageoflife on Mar 5, 2019 21:11:28 GMT
I like that they let us choose that for ourselves, and that Andrastian Inquisitors can believe that they weren't chosen. Yep, this is my Inquisitor's view. He sees it as approaching blasphemy to suggest he is anywhere near the level of Andraste. In addition, the Maker is said to have "abandoned" Thedas, so the idea that He is intervening now conflicts with what he's been taught. Even though he is Andrastian, he has a lot of cognitive dissonance throughout the game as a result of all that.
DAI's elements of faith are one of my favorite parts of the game.
My Inquisitor's view is that he spent most of his life surrounded by people who were convinced that their every action was the Maker's will. He has seen how disastrous that thinking is, and it both terrifies and enrages him that people are trying to push him down the same path.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 6, 2019 13:24:35 GMT
I suppose, a true Andrastian Inquisitor rather wouldn't believe, that s/he's some "Chosen One", but wouldn't absolutely exclude the possibility of some intervention ("Maker moves in mysterious ways"), and I think, s/he would a little bit scared by the people, who believe s/he's the Chosen of the Maker, this seems like a dangerous, superstitious faith. This ambiguity can still continue after the Fade part, where the Inquisitor can decide, this is "just" magic – or some kind of intervention.
This isn't a bad approach, even to a non-Andrastian Inquisitor, who wants to keep/strengthen people's moral for the battle. If s/he says that, he doesn't know, anything is possible (even s/he believe or not) – s/he can maintain the morality, strengthen the people's faith, and avoid, they think, the Inquisitor fanatic idiot with serious delusions...
(A non-Andrastian Inquisitor can also can say that, because of maintaining the faith among the Andrastians – and/or for sake of irony...)
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Post by Sah291 on Mar 7, 2019 1:53:45 GMT
Yes, but I think the story is just set up to make you question whatever your original assumption was. If you did believe, that belief is challenged when you meet the spirit in the fade. But if you didn't believe, the way everyone places their faith in the Inquisitor makes you second guess if maybe you are following in Andraste's footsteps and becoming a prophet after all. And if you believe in something else, like the Elven Gods, your faith is similarly challenged, as you realize Mythal is real, but not at all what you might have expected. So theme is pretty much about questioning beliefs and what it means to be a god or a prophet.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 8, 2019 10:14:22 GMT
Do you think it is gonna last? I mean, will the Inquisitor be included in the Chant of Light?
Or in just a few years, people in Thedas will look back and say "Man, what were we thinking"?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 8, 2019 17:55:38 GMT
will the Inquisitor be included in the Chant of Light? I'd very much doubt this. The Chant of Light is mostly based on what Andraste allegedly taught, plus Drakon's prophesy. Our Inquisitor didn't actually say or write anything of note. They might be pronounced Exalted or even Anointed after their death by virtue of the fact that they defeated Corypheus but more likely they will quietly be forgotten, particularly if they were not adherents of the religion or denied any connection with Andraste. Events rather proved that it was not the end of the world, which was the whole justification for the title, unless of course Solas does succeed in dropping the Veil and wiping out the modern world, in which case there will be no one around to remember.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2019 8:51:10 GMT
I think Here Lies The Abyss excludes the possibility pretty definitively. At least, there's no actual reason to believe it to be the case afterwards.
Obviously there's no need to disabuse anyone of the notion if it comforts them, though. My Lavellan kind of had her hands tied, as she couldn't deny the idea publicly without looking uncertain and indecisive, undermining her own authority, even though she obviously held to the Elven pantheon and knew it was all just wishful thinking.
One of the things I like about the game is that it treats religion as essentially a psychological tool for staying calm and sane and moral through tough and scary and confusing circumstances, to be ignored in favor of common sense when a situation is too complex not to think through critically. Mother Giselle, for example, functions mostly as a teacher and psychologist and moral adviser rather than an ideologue, exactly like the best priests do in real life.
A hell of a lot more respectful than depicting anyone with religious faith as just looking for excuses for their weakness and hatred, though it's obviously not like that doesn't happen either.
From that perspective, and as Josephine explains it, the whole "Herald of Andraste" thing is just the frame a lot of the NPCs have to put our character in to be able to focus on helping us close the Breach. Which, if that's what it takes, is imminently sensible. You're right that one would expect it to have some larger thematic meaning, but I have a hard time seeing it myself.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 18, 2019 9:30:01 GMT
Mother Giselle, for example, functions mostly as a teacher and psychologist and moral adviser rather than an ideologue, exactly like the best priests do in real life. I didn't have a problem with this so much as it ran contrary to everything we had previously been told about the Chantry. Now I suppose it is understandable that those Chantry people associated with the Inquisition are likely to be the open minded, reasonable ones, and the hardliners were those in opposition but nevertheless, having played the previous games and read all the lore I was surprised to say the least at the reaction of some of the believers. For example: a) When Cassandra asks me about my beliefs and my Dalish responds they believe in the elven gods, she responds with asking if I couldn't find room for one more god? This struck me as very odd, both in character and as a player. We had previously been told that the whole essence of the war with the Dales was that the elves were following their own gods and the Chantry insisted upon spreading the Chant of Light, which specifically denounces the worship of any other god than the Maker. Following on from the above, Giselle insisting that the Exalted March on the Dales was not a true Exalted March because only Orlais supplied troops. Not only did this contradict previous assertions by the Chantry but everything we found in the Exalted Plains confirmed that it was considered a holy war, not to mention the actual name itself. c) Whilst my Dalish was willing to take a pragmatic approach to the title bestowed upon them when nobody knew what really happened, I was actually quite shocked when we discovered the truth and everyone was telling me it didn't matter and I should let people continue to believe the lie. It made me rather cynical and inclined to not believe anything taught by the Chantry since I already knew they inserted bits into the Chant of Light and took them out for political convenience. d) What happened to the faith of the people when 2 years down the line the Herald of Andraste is being opposed by the political elite of Ferelden and Orlais and then loses the mark of divine favour that Andraste bestowed upon them? I notice that is something that is not even considered in the discussions in Trespasser. Take the village of Crestwood. They owe their very survival to the Herald of Andraste and not their local bann. Under Ferelden custom the freeholders get to choose to whom they offer their allegiance and taxes. Would they not object to their protector being taken away? When the Inquisitor turned up armless wouldn't at least some people experience a loss of faith as a result? Not to mention that the title "Herald" was given because you were the precursor to her return. Then life went on as usual, Andraste did not return and the organisation led by her Herald was cut down in size or disbanded altogether. A hell of a lot more respectful than depicting anyone with religious faith as just looking for excuses for their weakness and hatred, though it's obviously not like that doesn't happen either. Actually there are examples of this, for example the response of the Chantry to the revelations about Red Crossing as opposed to that of the Dalish. The latter actually want to make a peace offering to build bridges whereas the former just see it as confirming their actions as justified. However, what did seem evident in the "respectful" approach given to the religion of the Chantry is that no one in game is allowed the opportunity to question it in the way that happens with the Dalish religion. Whilst we have been told they will never definitively prove or disprove the existence of the Maker, that doesn't have to extend to the religion allegedly set up with his blessing. One of the interesting parts about heading to Tevinter is that hopefully we shall at least get their take on faith in the Maker and the status of Andraste via the Imperial Chantry.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2019 10:45:47 GMT
I didn't have a problem with this so much as it ran contrary to everything we had previously been told about the Chantry. Now I suppose it is understandable that those Chantry people associated with the Inquisition are likely to be the open minded, reasonable ones, and the hardliners were those in opposition but nevertheless, having played the previous games and read all the lore I was surprised to say the least at the reaction of some of the believers. For example: a) When Cassandra asks me about my beliefs and my Dalish responds they believe in the elven gods, she responds with asking if I couldn't find room for one more god? This struck me as very odd, both in character and as a player. We had previously been told that the whole essence of the war with the Dales was that the elves were following their own gods and the Chantry insisted upon spreading the Chant of Light, which specifically denounces the worship of any other god than the Maker. c) Whilst my Dalish was willing to take a pragmatic approach to the title bestowed upon them when nobody knew what really happened, I was actually quite shocked when we discovered the truth and everyone was telling me it didn't matter and I should let people continue to believe the lie. It made me rather cynical and inclined to not believe anything taught by the Chantry since I already knew they inserted bits into the Chant of Light and took them out for political convenience. d) What happened to the faith of the people when 2 years down the line the Herald of Andraste is being opposed by the political elite of Ferelden and Orlais and then loses the mark of divine favour that Andraste bestowed upon them? I notice that is something that is not even considered in the discussions in Trespasser. Take the village of Crestwood. They owe their very survival to the Herald of Andraste and not their local bann. Under Ferelden custom the freeholders get to choose to whom they offer their allegiance and taxes. Would they not object to their protector being taken away? When the Inquisitor turned up armless wouldn't at least some people experience a loss of faith as a result? Not to mention that the title "Herald" was given because you were the precursor to her return. Then life went on as usual, Andraste did not return and the organisation led by her Herald was cut down in size or disbanded altogether. However, what did seem evident in the "respectful" approach given to the religion of the Chantry is that no one in game is allowed the opportunity to question it in the way that happens with the Dalish religion. Whilst we have been told they will never definitively prove or disprove the existence of the Maker, that doesn't have to extend to the religion allegedly set up with his blessing. One of the interesting parts about heading to Tevinter is that hopefully we shall at least get their take on faith in the Maker and the status of Andraste via the Imperial Chantry. I think you're being a little unfair here, and putting more weight on the faith than the people who hold to it. Generally, people are perfectly capable of bending and compromising their beliefs to fit a new narrative if they feel like it. Cassandra knows that she's really not in any position to risk offending your beliefs or trying to convert you against your will if she wants to save the world. And the Inquisitor suddenly missing the arm marked by the divine is much more comfortably spun as a sign of his/her devotion and self-sacrifice rather than a punitive loss of that divine favor by his/her devotees. Which isn't to say that it isn't used as you surmise by their detractors, however many of them still find the Inquisitor personally relevant several years after the Breach is sealed. People are busy creatures, and have short memories about stuff like that. From what I remember of Tresspasser, those elites are trying to curb the Inquisition's growing power and influence at their expense any way they can rather than actually still balking at the Inquisitor's rumored divine status from way back when. And the Chantry is way too big an institution not to be full of conflicting and competing schools of thought. As for belief in the Maker not being questioned, there are several conversations with NPCs and companions - Blackwall and Sera in particular upon the arrival at Skyhold - that mention them having dismissed the Chantry's doctrines as just stories until Corywhatshisface's appearance lends tangible evidence to the idea that there actually was a Golden Throne for the ancient magisters to mess with, and that something may once have been sitting in it, leading to a moment of outright existential terror and denial on Sera's part at least. I wouldn't say that that sort of dialogue holds the possible existence of the Maker as the Chantry understands him/it as sacred and unquestionable.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 18, 2019 15:05:33 GMT
I think you're being a little unfair here, and putting more weight on the faith than the people who hold to it. Generally, people are perfectly capable of bending and compromising their beliefs to fit a new narrative if they feel like it. Cassandra knows that she's really not in any position to risk offending your beliefs or trying to convert you against your will if she wants to save the world. And the Inquisitor suddenly missing the arm marked by the divine is much more comfortably spun as a sign of his/her devotion and self-sacrifice rather than a punitive loss of that divine favor by his/her devotees. Which isn't to say that it isn't used as you surmise by their detractors, however many of them still find the Inquisitor personally relevant several years after the Breach is sealed. People are busy creatures, and have short memories about stuff like that. From what I remember of Tresspasser, those elites are trying to curb the Inquisition's growing power and influence at their expense any way they can rather than actually still balking at the Inquisitor's rumored divine status from way back when. And the Chantry is way too big an institution not to be full of conflicting and competing schools of thought. As for belief in the Maker not being questioned, there are several conversations with NPCs and companions - Blackwall and Sera in particular upon the arrival at Skyhold - that mention them having dismissed the Chantry's doctrines as just stories until Corywhatshisface's appearance lends tangible evidence to the idea that there actually was a Golden Throne for the ancient magisters to mess with, and that something may once have been sitting in it, leading to a moment of outright existential terror and denial on Sera's part at least. I wouldn't say that that sort of dialogue holds the possible existence of the Maker as the Chantry understands him/it as sacred and unquestionable. Actually, Cassandra does in fact reveal her own biases towards Andrastianism when she asks an Inquisitor with beliefs in a different set of gods to consider the Maker, yet will insult Dalish beliefs at the Temple of Mythal by asking how the elves can believe in such nonsense. Sera herself will force Lavellan to call what happened at the Temple of Mythal lies if she's in a relationship with the Inquisitor. Sera will laugh at the Dalish as well if she ever reveals what Solas tells her about the vallaslin, ignoring the fact that Lavellan is in a state of pain from the breakup. "Dalish don't know anything!" These two are one of the most openly devout believers in Andrastianism, repeatedly putting down a Dalish Inquisitor's beliefs, yet the player can never argue back about what happened in Here Lies the Abyss. It's believable in giving them flaws, but it's not endearing when we're given no way to dispute the hypocrisy. Andrastians don't know the truth about the Inquisitor being rescued by the Divine, yet I'd bet a few would believe that the Herald of Andraste was indeed saved by Andraste. We the player get to witness Cassandra's disapproval at suggestions that the Chantry should end, if the Inquisitor says they don't believe in the Maker or if they participate in an Avvar ritual which tells me that Andrastians are not as reasonable as they may seem. Especially when their dogma is to spread the Chant of Light to everyone.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2019 21:53:58 GMT
Actually, Cassandra does in fact reveal her own biases towards Andrastianism when she asks an Inquisitor with beliefs in a different set of gods to consider the Maker, yet will insult Dalish beliefs at the Temple of Mythal by asking how the elves can believe in such nonsense. Sera herself will force Lavellan to call what happened at the Temple of Mythal lies if she's in a relationship with the Inquisitor. Sera will laugh at the Dalish as well if she ever reveals what Solas tells her about the vallaslin, ignoring the fact that Lavellan is in a state of pain from the breakup. "Dalish don't know anything!" These two are one of the most openly devout believers in Andrastianism, repeatedly putting down a Dalish Inquisitor's beliefs, yet the player can never argue back about what happened in Here Lies the Abyss. It's believable in giving them flaws, but it's not endearing when we're given no way to dispute the hypocrisy. Andrastians don't know the truth about the Inquisitor being rescued by the Divine, yet I'd bet a few would believe that the Herald of Andraste was indeed saved by Andraste. We the player get to witness Cassandra's disapproval at suggestions that the Chantry should end, if the Inquisitor says they don't believe in the Maker or if they participate in an Avvar ritual which tells me that Andrastians are not as reasonable as they may seem. Especially when their dogma is to spread the Chant of Light to everyone. 1: Microagressions aren't a thing in Thedas, to my knowledge. Being vocally opposed to someone else's beliefs and possibly inadvertently offending them a bit while trying not to isn't the same thing. My Lavellan wasn't affected in the slightest, she knew Cassandra was a bit of a zealot and didn't actually understand the Dalish faith in any detail, and so her view didn't matter whatsoever except for clarifying things between them on the subject, which is useful. 2: The conversations at the Temple of Mythal happen towards the end of the game, under entirely different circumstances and social dynamics than when Cassandra first asks about your faith. By this point she can trust that you won't just turn tail and leave Corywhatshisface to do as he likes or start working against her if you feel unwelcome, and the outbursts are a response to actual evidence that there really is something weird going on with the Elven pantheon, not that there just recently was a misunderstanding based on unrelated factors. And frankly, Sera is the very antithesis of tact or social grace, almost approaching sociopathy, and she's been honest from the start about her view of putting the ancient elves on pedestals being stupid. What were you were expecting? And again, she's saying this in response to real revelations about the things Dalish traditions really are founded on. 3: People on this board get annoyed and feel contrary when they read views or assumptions that conflict with their own. I don't know why you would expect people of actual strong faith not to feel the same upon seeing you engage in the rituals of opposing ones, even without saying anything. There's a difference between acting reasonably respectfully to people who believe things you don't hold to, and being completely psychologically accepting of any faith or belief that counters your own. Namely that the latter is unrealistic.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 18, 2019 23:03:20 GMT
1: Microagressions aren't a thing in Thedas, to my knowledge. Being vocally opposed to someone else's beliefs and possibly inadvertently offending them a bit while trying not to isn't the same thing. My Lavellan wasn't affected in the slightest, she knew Cassandra was a bit of a zealot and didn't actually understand the Dalish faith in any detail, and so her view didn't matter whatsoever except for clarifying things between them om the subject, which is useful. 2: The conversations at the Temple of Mythal happen towards the end of the game, under entirely different circumstances and social dynamics than when Cassandra first asks about your faith. By this point she can trust that you won't just turn tail and leave Corywhatshisface to do as he likes or start working against her if you feel unwelcome, and the outbursts are a response to actual evidence that there really is something weird going on with the Elven pantheon, not that there just recently was a misunderstanding based on unrelated factors. And frankly, Sera is the very antithesis of tact or social grace, almost approaching sociopathy, and she's been honest from the start about her view of putting the ancient elves on pedestals being stupid. What were you were expecting? And again, she's saying this in response to real revelations about the things Dalish traditions really are founded on. 3: People on this board get annoyed and feel contrary when they read views or assumptions that conflict with their own. I don't know why you would expect people of actual strong faith not to feel the same upon seeing you engage in the rituals of opposing ones, even without saying anything. There's a difference between acting reasonably respectfully to people who believe things you don't hold to, and being completely psychologically accepting of any faith or belief that counters your own. Namely that the latter is unrealistic. I'm not sure that it really matters to begin with given how we can't really refuse in the beginning either. The Inquisitor was staring down imprisonment or worse until they proved they weren't an enemy. Just because there's a rift in the Fade threatening all of Thedas doesn't mean there isn't consequences for what is said and done. An Inquisitor's refusal to endorse bringing the Seekers back, for example, is one such consequence that Cassandra could face. But Cassandra and Sera's beliefs in the Maker aren't unusual for an Andrastian. They don't do anything that violate any central tenets and in fact reflect the more toxic aspects through denial of the validity of other beliefs, even denouncing them in front of others. It's like reinforcement for bystanders; It's ok to be disrespectful, to put down others who aren't like you. With Sera, I'm more inclined to say she's closer to a borderline personality disorder, so I'm willing to say her emotional blackmailing her girlfriend is coming from a place of trauma than entitlement. It still doesn't justify or make what she does acceptable. It is interesting to note that both will take swings at others; Cassandra at Varric for lying (even though she'll lie to Dorian with similar motives), and Sera if you take her to Adamant even if you two are in a relationship. These are red flag behaviors that would make anyone who is used to persecution to steer clear around individuals like that. None of what I say is expecting Cassandra or Sera to accept and convert to another faith; I'm pointing out though, that their behavior is hypocritical when they attack someone else. It's a common rule on forums too; No personal attacks on a person. To want to argue back with them, to expect the same amount of courtesy extended to them (that is, to not trash their personal faith openly) isn't the same as wanting them to give approval.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 18, 2019 23:31:29 GMT
I'm not sure that it really matters to begin with given how we can't really refuse in the beginning either. The Inquisitor was staring down imprisonment or worse until they proved they weren't an enemy. Just because there's a rift in the Fade threatening all of Thedas doesn't mean there isn't consequences for what is said and done. An Inquisitor's refusal to endorse bringing the Seekers back, for example, is one such consequence that Cassandra could face. But Cassandra and Sera's beliefs in the Maker aren't unusual for an Andrastian. They don't do anything that violate any central tenets and in fact reflect the more toxic aspects through denial of the validity of other beliefs, even denouncing them in front of others. It's like reinforcement for bystanders; It's ok to be disrespectful, to put down others who aren't like you. With Sera, I'm more inclined to say she's closer to a borderline personality disorder, so I'm willing to say her emotional blackmailing her girlfriend is coming from a place of trauma than entitlement. It still doesn't justify or make what she does acceptable. It is interesting to note that both will take swings at others; Cassandra at Varric for lying (even though she'll lie to Dorian with similar motives), and Sera if you take her to Adamant even if you two are in a relationship. These are red flag behaviors that would make anyone who is used to persecution to steer clear around individuals like that. None of what I say is expecting Cassandra or Sera to accept and convert to another faith; I'm pointing out though, that their behavior is hypocritical when they attack someone else. It's a common rule on forums too; No personal attacks on a person. To want to argue back with them, to expect the same amount of courtesy extended to them (that is, to not trash their personal faith openly) isn't the same as wanting them to give approval. Ha! Can you imagine a game-state where the Herald is actively trying to undermine Cassandra and escape the Inquisition from start to finish because s/he feels s/he's being enslaved by manic shemlen? No way the Breach is ever closed or Coryphywhatshisface loses in that scenario. And Cassandra has no way of knowing that the Herald wouldn't be liable to do those things at the start of the game. Again, if you feel that merely being aware of someone's mild disapproval is the same as being treated without respect, let alone evidence of persecution, let alone in a pseudo-medieval setting, the problem is with you rather than them.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 18, 2019 23:39:14 GMT
I'm not sure that it really matters to begin with given how we can't really refuse in the beginning either. The Inquisitor was staring down imprisonment or worse until they proved they weren't an enemy. Just because there's a rift in the Fade threatening all of Thedas doesn't mean there isn't consequences for what is said and done. An Inquisitor's refusal to endorse bringing the Seekers back, for example, is one such consequence that Cassandra could face. But Cassandra and Sera's beliefs in the Maker aren't unusual for an Andrastian. They don't do anything that violate any central tenets and in fact reflect the more toxic aspects through denial of the validity of other beliefs, even denouncing them in front of others. It's like reinforcement for bystanders; It's ok to be disrespectful, to put down others who aren't like you. With Sera, I'm more inclined to say she's closer to a borderline personality disorder, so I'm willing to say her emotional blackmailing her girlfriend is coming from a place of trauma than entitlement. It still doesn't justify or make what she does acceptable. It is interesting to note that both will take swings at others; Cassandra at Varric for lying (even though she'll lie to Dorian with similar motives), and Sera if you take her to Adamant even if you two are in a relationship. These are red flag behaviors that would make anyone who is used to persecution to steer clear around individuals like that. None of what I say is expecting Cassandra or Sera to accept and convert to another faith; I'm pointing out though, that their behavior is hypocritical when they attack someone else. It's a common rule on forums too; No personal attacks on a person. To want to argue back with them, to expect the same amount of courtesy extended to them (that is, to not trash their personal faith openly) isn't the same as wanting them to give approval. Ha! Can you imagine a game-state where the Herald is actively trying to undermine Cassandra and escape the Inquisition from start to finish because s/he feels s/he's being enslaved by manic shemlen? No way the Breach is ever closed or Coryphywhatshisface loses in that scenario. And Cassandra has no way of knowing that the Herald wouldn't be liable to do those things at the start of the game. Again, if you feel that merely being aware of someone's mild disapproval is the same as being treated without respect, let alone evidence of persecution, let alone in a pseudo-medieval setting, the problem is with you rather than them. I doubt that there's much incentive to ignore the sky wide cataclysm affecting everyone. Everyone obviously has a stake in it. But that doesn't mean one won't have other things to deal with once it's over. Never really said that approval/disapproval was grounds for judging. It's the actions the Inquisitor witnesses right in front of them. Being trashed right in front of teammates is a very good way to land oneself permanently in camp and to lose any chance for your Order to be revived. Or to get reprimanded when attempting assault on another teammate and potentially kicked out like Sera.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 0:04:05 GMT
I doubt that there's much incentive to ignore the sky wide cataclysm affecting everyone. Everyone obviously has a stake in it. But that doesn't mean one won't have other things to deal with once it's over. Never really said that approval/disapproval was grounds for judging. It's the actions the Inquisitor witnesses right in front of them. Being trashed right in front of teammates is a very good way to land oneself permanently in camp and to lose any chance for your Order to be revived. Or to get reprimanded when attempting assault on another teammate and potentially kicked out like Sera. The game, and the world, are full of people who either can't reconcile themselves with that or buckle under the pressure though. That's just how it's always been. Some people don't have an 'off' button for their pettiness. Cassandra doesn't know much about the Dalish and can't know if you're one of them when push comes to shove. She has a lot of experience being the one who makes decisions while the people around her just try to pass the buck. As does the Lavellan Keeper-in-training, presumably. And you kind of did. And in that case you're the one making important and wide-ranging decisions that affect other people's lives based on arbitrarily not feeling personally supported enough, making you the unreasonably biased and irrational one. Which it's obviously your job not to be once you're entrusted with real responsibility.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 0:16:38 GMT
I doubt that there's much incentive to ignore the sky wide cataclysm affecting everyone. Everyone obviously has a stake in it. But that doesn't mean one won't have other things to deal with once it's over. Never really said that approval/disapproval was grounds for judging. It's the actions the Inquisitor witnesses right in front of them. Being trashed right in front of teammates is a very good way to land oneself permanently in camp and to lose any chance for your Order to be revived. Or to get reprimanded when attempting assault on another teammate and potentially kicked out like Sera. The game, and the world, is full of people who either can't reconcile themselves with that or buckle under the pressure though. That's how it's always been. Cassandra doesn't much about the Dalish and can't know if you're one of them when push comes to shove. And you kind of did. And in that case you're the one making important and wide-ranging decisions that affect people's lives based on arbitrarily not feeling personally supported enough, making you the biased and irrational one. Cassandra knows how important her faith is to herself. She can be told by the Inquisitor that they believe in a different faith. That should be enough to get the point across that Cassandra wouldn't like it if someone trashed her faith in front of other people. It's basic social expectations people are taught as children. When facing prejudice by humans to the point that their clan's lives are being threatened, Cassandra's disrespect is an echo of an overarching problem that should not be tolerated. Refusing to buckle to her insults is not unreasonable or coming out of nowhere. If I don't believe she can be impartial and fair enough to extend courtesy to another race, why should I trust her with control over an organization that already harmed innocents that she even admitted to their corruption? If she assaults someone for lying and then turns around to lie for the actions of the Seekers, why should I trust her to renew it?
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 0:36:24 GMT
The game, and the world, is full of people who either can't reconcile themselves with that or buckle under the pressure though. That's how it's always been. Cassandra doesn't much about the Dalish and can't know if you're one of them when push comes to shove. And you kind of did. And in that case you're the one making important and wide-ranging decisions that affect people's lives based on arbitrarily not feeling personally supported enough, making you the biased and irrational one. Cassandra knows how important her faith is to herself. She can be told by the Inquisitor that they believe in a different faith. That should be enough to get the point across that Cassandra wouldn't like it if someone trashed her faith in front of other people. It's basic social expectations people are taught as children. When facing prejudice by humans to the point that their clan's lives are being threatened, Cassandra's disrespect is an echo of an overarching problem that should not be tolerated. Refusing to buckle to her insults is not unreasonable or coming out of nowhere. If I don't believe she can be impartial and fair enough to extend courtesy to another race, why should I trust her with control over an organization that already harmed innocents that she even admitted to their corruption? If she assaults someone for lying and then turns around to lie for the actions of the Seekers, why should I trust her to renew it? Uhm, no? It's abstract modern empathetic philosophy that most people never realize, let alone incorporate, the real-life value of throughout their entire lives in anything more than theory. You can certainly teach it to children, but they won't necessarily care or be able to recognize those behaviors in themselves in daily life as adults just because you did. And Cassandra's guardians certainly did not. And again, Cassandra is neither a theological scholar or a natural or trained peacemaker. She's law enforcement, and a practical and straightforward women with very little delicacy who is quite occupied with her mission. It sounds like your expectations for people's tolerance of other viewpoints are just wildly unrealistic. Seriously, in real life there's very little time and energy left over to make sure nobody feels the least bit offended or infringed upon when something big and practical needs to be done in a hurry with serious consequences if it isn't. That's just how it is, and how it's always been. These days people are negotiating a different approach in office environments and academic institutions because there's a lot of nervous energy going around places like that, since people aren't actually doing much of anything, but in the real world where people work hard to get shit done you just take the lumps as they come, sleep on it and come back the next day ready for more work with people you know you can rely on specifically because you've forgiven them for a dozen tiny offenses and vice versa.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 2:13:23 GMT
Cassandra knows how important her faith is to herself. She can be told by the Inquisitor that they believe in a different faith. That should be enough to get the point across that Cassandra wouldn't like it if someone trashed her faith in front of other people. It's basic social expectations people are taught as children. When facing prejudice by humans to the point that their clan's lives are being threatened, Cassandra's disrespect is an echo of an overarching problem that should not be tolerated. Refusing to buckle to her insults is not unreasonable or coming out of nowhere. If I don't believe she can be impartial and fair enough to extend courtesy to another race, why should I trust her with control over an organization that already harmed innocents that she even admitted to their corruption? If she assaults someone for lying and then turns around to lie for the actions of the Seekers, why should I trust her to renew it? Uhm, no? It's abstract modern empathetic philosophy that most people never realize, let alone incorporate, the real-life value of throughout their entire lives in anything more than theory. You can certainly teach it to children, but they won't necessarily care or be able to recognize those behaviors in themselves in daily life as adults just because you did. And Cassandra's guardians certainly did not. And again, Cassandra is neither a theological scholar or a natural or trained peacemaker. She's law enforcement, and a practical and straightforward women with very little delicacy who is quite occupied with her mission. It sounds like your expectations for people's tolerance of other viewpoints are just wildly unrealistic. Seriously, in real life there's very little time and energy left over to make sure nobody feels the least bit offended or infringed upon when something big and practical needs to be done in a hurry with serious consequences if it isn't. That's just how it is, and how it's always been. These days people are negotiating a different approach in office environments and academic institutions because there's a lot of nervous energy going around places like that, since people aren't actually doing much of anything, but in the real world where people work hard to get shit done you just take the lumps as they come, sleep on it and come back the next day ready for more work with people you know you can rely on specifically because you've forgiven them for a dozen tiny offenses and vice versa. Ok, first you claimed that Cassandra knows well enough not to offend someone enough to risk saving the world, but now you're saying she's not empathetic enough to comprehend avoiding offending said same person over faith? Faith isn't a minor quibble in Thedas when the Divine can wield political power nor is being suspicious of handing power to someone who may not have yours or people you love's best interests in mind. She can believe in what she wants, but she doesn't get a free pass for doing what she wouldn't want done to her. The Inquisitor is making serious decisions that affect people's lives and determining whether someone is safe enough to trust not to cause too much harm. If Cassandra can't comprehend that someone else cares about a different faith as much as she does hers, that's her fault, not the person she offended. You don't get to tell someone their beliefs are stupid and then expect to avoid consequences. If someone marched into a Presbyterian church and asked how Christians can believe such nonsense, those within the church have every right to boot that person back out.
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