Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 6, 2019 14:12:44 GMT
I ask this as someone who started a career in software development a year ago. My experience and that of my colleagues is that projects change dramatically over the course of development for a variety of technical and design related decisions. Ben Irving recently responded to a reddit post complaining about aspects of the game that seemed different from how they were presented in some marketing:
This is all very reasonable and true to my experience, and I don’t even work on the sort of highly marketed commercial product game developers do.
But the biggest response to his comment has been to simply accuse the developers of lying. People just seem to point blank refuse the idea that anything that didn’t end up in the final product was ever actually planned to be in the final product. The truth is the only way to prevent this problem entirely is to forgo marketing and do what Apex did, launching without any preamble or preview whatsoever, and maybe they should.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Mar 6, 2019 14:28:11 GMT
Perhaps because they bought into the hype, discovered after a while that they were disappointed in the game, and now need someone else to blame....rather than themselves for getting on the hype train.
BioWare would be much better off if they kept quiet until much closer to release, they just keep giving people unrealistic expectations.
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Post by CHRrOME on Mar 6, 2019 14:37:52 GMT
I can see how this is Anthem related, even though I haven't played the game: what they promised and what people actually got. As disclaimer, I have seen lots of gameplay of the game (because I wanted to make sure whether I'd buy it or not), and I've seen formulated reviews. Can't be helped. As for accusing the devs, it's natural. They said one thing and it just so happens that wasn't real. They're selling something that doesn't exist, people get pissed because they paid money. Even though we know development changes a lot, if they go out on the internet or an interview (like they did with Anthem) and say: "yeah you can do this and that, also what you do shapes the world" and then it's not true, it is a lie.
As for launching without any previous announcement, I kind of agree. Problem is, how do you please the share holders if they don't see people building hype around the title? How do you please the publisher, they want to know that people are excited and looking forward to the game so they know money is to be made. If you just release it out of thin air you don't know what could happen. APEX Legends was the most weird decision I've seen EA take since a long ass time, granted it was easier since the game kinda is a Titanfall 3 reshaped asset, but still it's super mega risky.
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Post by Sah291 on Mar 6, 2019 14:44:52 GMT
It's partly people not appreciating how game development, or any large scope project like this works, yeah. Things change over time.
I can understand a bit though. At a time (in the mobile gaming era) when more and more game and app developers seem to be adopting casino/gambling practices, and/or are collecting data on you for targeted ads, it's difficult to feel like a lot of these companies are trustworthy. Even I've started to become jaded with the mainstream gaming industry as of late, and am mainly focusing on smaller indie developers, older titles, and retro gaming.
Add to that, all the challenges and changes the industry is facing right now. The move away from physical media, rising costs of development, games as a service, microtransactions, the push to compete with the mobile market, etc. There is a lot of uncertainty, anger, and angst out there.
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Post by bigbad on Mar 6, 2019 14:46:08 GMT
Because the product shown (and promised) in the marketing is a far cry from the product that was actually delivered. It's not very complicated.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 6, 2019 14:54:49 GMT
Perhaps because they bought into the hype, discovered after a while that they were disappointed in the game, and now need someone else to blame....rather than themselves for getting on the hype train. BioWare would be much better off if they kept quiet until much closer to release, they just keep giving people unrealistic expectations. Maybe, but the incertainty of what Anthem was supposed to be like wasn't really helping neither. You could go without any big prerelease marketing, but that's dipping your feet into risk because the market is quite competitive for online players. Is not so much player money I feel, rather than player time - there is only so much time people can spend playing online games together.
And then there is of course a certain expectation to deliver story driven games.
Development changes games, yes - however I wonder if Anthem changed so much that even the original vision is quite different. Is it still sensible to look for that particular tie in to a new take on online-story telling like was suggested? Or is that been largely cut back, too? Or do they still believe to have made this "new take"? Self-delusion? Will more story be delivered?
I dunno. Is just I played Warframe without caring much cos it was F2P. I dint care for roadmaps and visions. In the end I was awed and baffled what they actually did from that rudimentary building block that was their beta. Maybe it's just better to be surprised pleasantly. Just like I did with ME3. Played ME2 and forgot about it. Suddenly ME3 was on the store shelves -> yay.
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 6, 2019 15:02:02 GMT
Simple, really. The more people have already been lied to, the more they tend to believe that they are being lied to again by the same person/entity. "I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
If a developer isn't certain whether a given feature will be part of the finished product, they should simply say so. If it's stated like a fact and advertised like a fact, it will be considered a fact, and then a lie if it's not happening.
Some developers mark their trailers with "This is a work in progress and subject to change". Others use a sentence like "Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real-time." Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer?
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Post by shinobiwan on Mar 6, 2019 15:06:30 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, they thought a gameplay trailer just eight months before launch would be somewhat representative of launch, and it hardly was.
I've not seen many claiming outright lies, but bioware's decision to label something as a gameplay showcase that close to launch, when they knew many of those elements could be on the chopping block, is far from the transparency they're trying to project.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 6, 2019 15:10:44 GMT
Simple, really. The more people have already been lied to, the more they tend to believe that they are being lied to again by the same person/entity. "I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you." - Friedrich Nietzsche If a developer isn't certain whether a given feature will be part of the finished product, they should simply say so. If it's stated like a fact and advertised like a fact, it will be considered a fact, and then a lie if it's not happening. Some developers mark their trailers with "This is a work in progress and subject to change". Others use a sentence like "Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real-time." Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer? I believe there was often commented that the footage was subject to change. Or even watermerked as such. However, you cant watermark the "story" or you're gonna spoil it. Story is "soft" criterion - gameplay can be shown. Is when the "soft" parts hit reality "Is THAT it?" kicks in often?
Or you leave the story out because there is so little?
I think Star Citizen is a good example, too. Is so fueled by dreamcrafting and ambiguuous dev statements that it'll be inevitable to hear lie accusations should it release at some point.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 6, 2019 15:11:50 GMT
Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer? Both of those statement are often honest though. Thing is, when developers say “this is subject to change” many people these days will simply seize on that and say “aha! This means this is all bullshit and we shouldn’t trust it!” People react the same way if developers pepper their speech with “maybes” and “plans”. So it seems like a no win scenario.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 6, 2019 15:12:18 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, they thought a gameplay trailer just eight months before launch would be somewhat representative of launch, and it hardly was. I've not seen many claiming outright lies, but bioware's decision to label something as a gameplay showcase that close to launch, when they knew many of those elements could be on the chopping block, is far from the transparency they're trying to project. You know what instantly hit me in the face? Remember the curtain the character pulls away in the trailer? IIRC it hangs at the entrance of the bar. Is no curtain tho. But a wall, ffs.
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 6, 2019 15:23:12 GMT
Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer? Both of those statement are often honest though. Thing is, when developers say “this is subject to change” many people these days will simply seize on that and say “aha! This means this is all bullshit and we shouldn’t trust it!” People react the same way if developers pepper their speech with “maybes” and “plans”. So it seems like a no win scenario. The difference is probably that the first statement is immediately and obviously honest - the game isn't done yet, so of course it's subject to change - and the second one can only be proven as honest on release day. And the reaction you describe - "Aha, this means it's BS!" - is likely inspired by previous experience with the developer in question. I'm sure you know people in real life you're willing to believe even when they make bold statements, and others where you tend to be cautious. Both depends on your previous experience with them, and it's the same with dev studios. And BioWare, unfortunately, has pulled quite a bit of BS over the years, and some people remember that. Some were just little things, but they add up.
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 6, 2019 15:25:14 GMT
Simple, really. The more people have already been lied to, the more they tend to believe that they are being lied to again by the same person/entity. "I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you." - Friedrich Nietzsche If a developer isn't certain whether a given feature will be part of the finished product, they should simply say so. If it's stated like a fact and advertised like a fact, it will be considered a fact, and then a lie if it's not happening. Some developers mark their trailers with "This is a work in progress and subject to change". Others use a sentence like "Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real-time." Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer? I believe there was often commented that the footage was subject to change. Or even watermerked as such. The second sentence I quoted ("Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real-time.") is what the Anthem E3 trailer starts with.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Mar 6, 2019 15:33:44 GMT
Because after six years we got an MVP
Because the "things change " seems to always translate as "we cut shit out"
Because a game that we were told would feel like a traditional bioware game was given to us as a soulless grindy bore that now might even brick hardware
People think they were lied to because THEY WERE
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Post by shinobiwan on Mar 6, 2019 15:35:55 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, they thought a gameplay trailer just eight months before launch would be somewhat representative of launch, and it hardly was. I've not seen many claiming outright lies, but bioware's decision to label something as a gameplay showcase that close to launch, when they knew many of those elements could be on the chopping block, is far from the transparency they're trying to project. You know what instantly hit me in the face? Remember the curtain the character pulls away in the trailer? IIRC it hangs at the entrance of the bar. Is no curtain tho. But a wall, ffs. I reacted exactly the same way to that.
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Post by shinobiwan on Mar 6, 2019 15:38:36 GMT
Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer? Both of those statement are often honest though. Thing is, when developers say “this is subject to change” many people these days will simply seize on that and say “aha! This means this is all bullshit and we shouldn’t trust it!” People react the same way if developers pepper their speech with “maybes” and “plans”. So it seems like a no win scenario. There's a clear solution - only show things you are reasonably certain will make the launch build. If that's literally nothing eight months before launch, that's a separate problem.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 6, 2019 15:42:26 GMT
As a general rule if you were lied to you are the victim and they are the villain. If you weren’t you just made a poor decision and only you are to blame.
In this instance though, It’s hard to say I mean if I’m watching a add for a vacumm and it advertised it having 4 whoosits of suction and I get it and it has 2 I’ve been lied to.
Games advertise before completion of the product so some change is expected. Depending on how close you are to release you get more leeway.
But at the same time they should be upfront when things they advertised get cut. If you don’t say in advance I know we advertised 10 raids at launch but we only have 2, we are working on adding the other 8 then yeah you lied. It’s a lie of omission.
I’m sure there is plenty of content that made it into the game. And I’m sure from the point they started advertising content they had some core content that for sure wouldn’t get cut. Maybe it wasn’t as exciting as other content. But if you are not sure it will make it, maybe don’t advertise it. And if you do and it does get cut be upfront about it.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 6, 2019 15:45:41 GMT
Because a game that we were told would feel like a traditional bioware game That’s overstating the case of what BioWare said. They indicated that BioWare had not thrown it’s love of storytelling and fun characters at the wayside and that was certainly true (if you didn’t like the writing, that’s another issue). Anthem doesn’t have the same level of RPG storytelling as a single player RPG, but it never realistically could have so that’s a strange expectation to hold it to. I heard one person complaining that there was nothing like KotOR’s Manaan or Sith Academy infiltration in Anthem and I’m honestly baffled that they ever thought that was a possibility in a game that we have for a long time known was based around multiplayer missions. It still blows 90% of games in the looter shooter genre out of the water in terms of storytelling and character writing. Unrealistic expectations seem to be a theme here. Misinformation, it has caused information corruption requiring booting the PS4 in safe mode and rebuilding the database, but the rumors of bricking consoles are false. That’s still pretty bad, but just for clarity.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Mar 6, 2019 15:53:31 GMT
Because a game that we were told would feel like a traditional bioware game That’s overstating the case of what BioWare said. They indicated that BioWare had not thrown it’s love of storytelling and fun characters at the wayside and that was certainly true. Anthem doesn’t have the same level of RPG storytelling as a single player RPG, but it never realistically could have so that’s a strange expectation to hold it to. I heard one person complaining that there was nothing like KotOR’s Manaan or Sith Academy infiltration in Anthem and I’m honestly baffled that they ever thought that was a possibility in a game that we have for a long time known was based around multiplayer missions. It still blows 90% of games in the looter shooter genre out of the water in terms of storytelling and character writing. Unrealistic expectations seem to be a theme here.Misinformation, it has caused information corruption requiring booting the PS4 in safe mode and rebuilding the database, but the rumors of bricking consoles are false. That’s still pretty bad, but just for clarity. no, the quote was specifically that it would feel like a traditional bioware game. It was a lie, the truth was given to us in bits later to "turn the heat up slowly so the frog does not jump out" I could not care less if it was a vague statement, it was disingenuous as a bioware fan of the previous games would no doubt have a clear idea of what was meant by that Yong yea actually compiled a few of those statements Also, about the bricking, that is why I said might, it is still inexcusable
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 6, 2019 15:59:06 GMT
If you've trouble using the word "lie" you can replace it with "disappointment" instead. It's not as loaded, but describes the sentiment perfectly when things turn out differently.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Mar 6, 2019 16:00:38 GMT
If you've trouble using the word "lie" you can replace it with "disappointment" instead. It's not as loaded, but describes the sentiment perfectly when things turn out differently. you were disappointed to? No...you cannot replace one with the other One CAUSES the other tho
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 6, 2019 16:04:11 GMT
Most of the mis-truth I see is from the clckbaiters.
Outfits will cost $20 - no they won't. The game will brick your PS4 - no it won't. People are getting banned for farming chests - no they aren't.
Another day, more bullshit.
I'm trying to spend a little less time on the internet reading it and a little more time in the game enjoying playing it.
As a 'first look' 2 years before release, the E3 2017 trailer was reasonably representative of what we have and anticipate that we will still get in the GAAS.
That's not to say that BioWare hasn't dropped the ball with bugs and build quality, a AAA game shouldn't release as a D+ build. But an awesome buggy game can become an awesome fixed game.
I have sympathy for those who base their understanding of reality of what an outrage mob tells them, but that's their choice entirely.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 6, 2019 16:08:40 GMT
no, the quote was specifically that it would feel like a traditional bioware game. It was a lie, the truth was given to us in bits later to "turn the heat up slowly so the frog does not jump out" But isn’t “a traditional BioWare game” itself a vague concept? I mean that ranges from Baldur’s Gate->KotOR->Jade Empire->Mass Effect->Dragon Age. The only real common thread you can say runs through all of these is a focus on fun characters and storytelling (as well as being single player, but BioWare has never attempted to hide that about Anthem), which Anthem does have if presented differently than most previous games. So I wouldn’t find that disingenuous. This sounds like another case of someone filling in the blanks with their own meaning instead of what BioWare intended, which they certainly could have clarified better, but it doesn’t mean they were disingenuous.
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Post by Sah291 on Mar 6, 2019 16:11:32 GMT
That’s overstating the case of what BioWare said. They indicated that BioWare had not thrown it’s love of storytelling and fun characters at the wayside and that was certainly true. Anthem doesn’t have the same level of RPG storytelling as a single player RPG, but it never realistically could have so that’s a strange expectation to hold it to. I heard one person complaining that there was nothing like KotOR’s Manaan or Sith Academy infiltration in Anthem and I’m honestly baffled that they ever thought that was a possibility in a game that we have for a long time known was based around multiplayer missions. It still blows 90% of games in the looter shooter genre out of the water in terms of storytelling and character writing. Unrealistic expectations seem to be a theme here.Misinformation, it has caused information corruption requiring booting the PS4 in safe mode and rebuilding the database, but the rumors of bricking consoles are false. That’s still pretty bad, but just for clarity. no, the quote was specifically that it would feel like a traditional bioware game. It was a lie, the truth was given to us in bits later to "turn the heat up slowly so the frog does not jump out" Statements like this are unfortunately very subjective. To me, when it comes to things like the world building, lore, story themes, characters, NPCs, and hub area, it does feel very much like a traditional Bioware game, in my opinion. The dialogue wheel is much scaled back, and only available within the hub, but if I recall ME2 also had a lot of binary dialogue choices like this (due to the whole renegade/paragon thing). Now of course the gameplay doesn't feel like traditional Bioware at all and is a different genre altogether than their usual narrative driven single player rpg. So it both does and doesn't feel like a traditional Bioware game.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Mar 6, 2019 16:13:11 GMT
no, the quote was specifically that it would feel like a traditional bioware game. It was a lie, the truth was given to us in bits later to "turn the heat up slowly so the frog does not jump out" But isn’t “a traditional BioWare game” itself a vague concept? I mean that ranges from Baldur’s Gate->KotOR->Jade Empire->Mass Effect->Dragon Age. The only real common thread you can say runs through all of these is a focus on fun characters and storytelling (as well as being single player, but BioWare has never attempted to hide that about Anthem), which Anthem does have if presented differently than most previous games. So I wouldn’t find that disingenuous. This sounds like another case of someone filling in the blanks with their own meaning instead of what BioWare intended, which they certainly could have clarified better, but it doesn’t mean they were disingenuous. just because one plays one the fact that it could be interpreted in different ways does not make it less disingenuous, only more willful in its aim to deceive the core fanbase. Sorry, no amount of excuses changes that
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