inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 12:15:54 GMT
My only "plan" is to allow Bioware space to make their own decisions based on what the WANT to do and then to wait to see what sort of game they make in the end and then, and only then, decide whether it's the sort of game that suit me. Geez. And I understand how you put it, but chasing trends has not, in so far, helped them one bit and you can already tell their next endeavor is going to be highly unlikely to prove fruitful, exactly because of the volatility of being a twelve year old. Like, the only things that I still like today, since I was twelve, are chocolate ice-creams and boobies. I even stopped playing Sonic and FIFA. You also have to consider that today's 12 year olds are going to be the 15 year olds of your next game's release, so if you're going to have to make make adjustments to appeal to that year's 12 year olds, you're going to end up with one huge mess of a game and an absolute joy to manage, to be sure. Any person with half a brain will tell you that is not going to succeed and you're going to hate every minute you work on it. But by all means, please, go ahead and commit corporate suicide, leave your 300-500 employees on the street when EA closes you down, after your third failed project. You can tell this specifically is a bad decision. They can do it if they want to, but it will not go well. Please, PLEASE, tell me you can see the number of unpredictably moving variables and you can see how improbable it is to get it right enough, to make that game a success.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 12:27:57 GMT
You do realize that some of those names were killed when the Collectors destroyed the SR1, right? The other thing is that serviceman would likely have no idea how/why the names from ME2 died. He would likely be impressed that Shepard and one ship with a crew and squad were able to defeat the collectors. All I know is that I walked into a ship where way, way too many people died and the fact that I don't know the story, would scare me even more so. The only one who has consistently survived is Shepard and the rumour/idea that he is willing to sacrifice way too many people to get something done, which while sometimes necessary, the consistency with which people under his command have died, for whatever reason, is at the very least disconcerting. I would not want to server under that Shepard.
|
|
Sondergaard
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
Posts: 572 Likes: 975
inherit
1505
0
975
Sondergaard
572
Sept 8, 2016 21:17:59 GMT
September 2016
sondergaard
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
|
Post by Sondergaard on Jul 10, 2019 12:32:25 GMT
You do realize that some of those names were killed when the Collectors destroyed the SR1, right? The other thing is that serviceman would likely have no idea how/why the names from ME2 died. He would likely be impressed that Shepard and one ship with a crew and squad were able to defeat the collectors. All I know is that I walked into a ship where way, way too many people died and the fact that I don't know the story, would scare me even more so. The only one who has consistently survived is Shepard and the rumour/idea that he is willing to sacrifice way too many people to get something done, which while sometimes necessary, the consistency with which people under his command have died, for whatever reason, is at the very least disconcerting. I would not want to server under that Shepard. He saved the galaxy and lost about 30-40 people under his direct command doing it. Seems like a pretty good strike rate to me.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 12:38:05 GMT
lost about 30-40 people under his direct command If I had lost 30-40 people under my command, regardless of what I succeeded in doing, I'd have been discharged. Honourably, but discharged nonetheless.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Apr 22, 2024 18:35:27 GMT
9,167
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,821
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Jul 10, 2019 14:00:30 GMT
And I understand how you put it, but chasing trends has not, in so far, helped them one bit and you can already tell their next endeavor is going to be highly unlikely to prove fruitful, exactly because of the volatility of being a twelve year old. However, note that Bio has been able to execute that strategy successfully in the past. The reason we have Mass Effect in the first place is that Bio chased the ARPG trend. I'm not sure that KotOR would have existed if they hadn't chased the console trend, but that's hard to know. Also, note that their first attempt at an ARPG was something close to an epic fail. (Sales-wise; the game itself wasn't bad.)
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,253
themikefest
14,808
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Jul 10, 2019 14:06:58 GMT
You do realize that some of those names were killed when the Collectors destroyed the SR1, right? The other thing is that serviceman would likely have no idea how/why the names from ME2 died. He would likely be impressed that Shepard and one ship with a crew and squad were able to defeat the collectors. All I know is that I walked into a ship where way, way too many people died and the fact that I don't know the story, would scare me even more so. The only one who has consistently survived is Shepard and the rumour/idea that he is willing to sacrifice way too many people to get something done, which while sometimes necessary, the consistency with which people under his command have died, for whatever reason, is at the very least disconcerting. I would not want to server under that Shepard. It would not bother me. I realize that on any mission there is a risk that I could be killed. I have to rely on my training and experience to get me through the mission. It also helps that the team has my back just as I have their back.
|
|
helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
Posts: 1,853 Likes: 2,478
inherit
867
0
Apr 13, 2024 10:39:49 GMT
2,478
helios969
Kamisama
1,853
August 2016
helios969
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
No Clue
Who Cares
|
Post by helios969 on Jul 10, 2019 14:28:18 GMT
lost about 30-40 people under his direct command If I had lost 30-40 people under my command, regardless of what I succeeded in doing, I'd have been discharged. Honourably, but discharged nonetheless. Not sure about that. Most high level leaders would find exchanging 30-40 for 10000 enemies a fair exchange...never mind those you save along the way.
|
|
inherit
2044
0
Nov 10, 2016 16:47:07 GMT
10,073
AnDromedary
4,372
Nov 10, 2016 16:30:09 GMT
November 2016
andromedary
|
Post by AnDromedary on Jul 10, 2019 14:36:27 GMT
And I understand how you put it, but chasing trends has not, in so far, helped them one bit and you can already tell their next endeavor is going to be highly unlikely to prove fruitful, exactly because of the volatility of being a twelve year old. However, note that Bio has been able to execute that strategy successfully in the past. The reason we have Mass Effect in the first place is that Bio chased the ARPG trend. I'm not sure that KotOR would have existed if they hadn't chased the console trend, but that's hard to know. Also, note that their first attempt at an ARPG was something close to an epic fail. (Sales-wise; the game itself wasn't bad.) This exactly. BW has been "chasing trends" ever since NWN. If the people who said that BW should just do "what they are good at" all over again had been listened to from the beginning, we'd have Baldur's Gate 15 by now. And mind you, there were plenty of people back then as well who did NOT like BW's shift towards 3D environments (KotOR) or more direct combat (with Jade Empire) at all.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't like the latest trends either (I am not a coop person, so Anthem really wasn't my thing). But I don't begrudge BW the desire to try new things (and yes, also popular things with "the kidz"). That's fine. I do begrudge them the lack in quality (as perceived by me) in their latest products. That is the real issue, not the shift in some aspects of game design.
EDIT: As for Shepard loosing people: I think how this is judged depends on the situation. Sure, if you have the vastly superior force in a conflict (like western countries usually do these days in most direct conflicts they are involved in), for a commander to loose even a single soldier is a big deal. You have technological dominance over the theartre and you are supposed to use it to safeguard your own people. However, in a conflict where you are the weaker party or where chances are hard to measure, operations with a higher risk factor for single soldiers may be deemed necessary. For example, I am currently watching a (very very) interesting 26 part documentary about WW2, made in the 70s ("World at War" if anyone wants to know). They interview a lot of commanders and generals that were in charge during WW2. One of them states outright that when he ordered paratroopers to deploy over France in preparation for the invasion just before D-Day, the expected losses were so high that he knew, that probably more than half the people he shook hands with and wished them luck would not survive the next 24 hours.
Shepard's mandates are generally more on the high risk side of the spectrum, I'd say and everyone going in knows that.
Since you guys were talking about how Shepard might be perceived if s/he does indeed survive the ME3 ending, I'd speculate that the fact that they pretty much singlehandedly negated the biggest threat in the history of the entire galaxy would outshine the losses taken along the way. Furthermore, if it was the destroy ending or the control ending, it would be politically very convenient for the Alliance to play Shepard up as the hero of the eon (in case of synthesis it doesn't matter since everyone is buddy buddy now anyways). I doubt they'd just shove him into a quiet desk job at that point. If anything, they might pull a Jon Grissom on Shep and parade them around until they can't stand it anymore. In any case, I'd suspect that in the immediate future, young people would be lining up to work with/fpr them.
I mean, you can headcanon anything you want of course but that would be my take on it.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 15:15:43 GMT
However, note that Bio has been able to execute that strategy successfully in the past. The reason we have Mass Effect in the first place is that Bio chased the ARPG and console trends. Also, note that their first attempt at doing so was something close to an epic fail. (Sales-wise; the game itself wasn't bad.) Sure, companies that have been making games have evolved, over the time, to make new games that are different from the ones they use to make. Destiny, for example, is a lot different to Halo and Halo is not the same game as Oni, either. Likewise, Jade Empire was very different from Neverwinter Nights. But throughout Bioware's titles there have been consistent elements and improvements done to them, the same of which could be said for Bungie that I already mentioned earlier as well, some staples, if you will. In the past ... nearly decade or so, Bioware has failed to show improvement in a number of fields, in some occasions even regressing and what was once a respected studio, is now the butt of the joke in the gaming community. Bioware first has to fix itself, re-establish its name in the eyes of the gaming public and then maybe, maybe they can go after a major market shift. But chasing the CoD crowd, as established by numerous studios in the gaming industry is impossible, as they all only play CoD. The same goes for Skyrim, although there is some overlap there with Dragon Age, but you most certainly cannot predict the trend that the 12 year olds of 2022 will be following and you absolutely cannot compete with Fortnite. Nor should you. Ever.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 15:19:08 GMT
Meh... and if they favored ME2 characters, you'd probably be on them about that. One way to find out, make ME4 with only ME2 squadmates on the roster. Or remake ME3 using only ME2 characters. I was pointing out the difference in content that the non ME1 characters, particularly the LI's, got vs what the ME1 characters have. What's the explanation for not having Traynor, Jack, Cortez, and Lawson not able to be with Shepard during the casino mission? Change? No. The majority of my ME2 playthroughs I only recruit 8, and I have 8 before Horizon happens. So that means someone will die during the suicide mission. Most of the time it's Garrus, and other times it's Goto. Bioware should still cater to the actual fans they have... those who actually like their work. You mean MEA fans. Producing a sequel to ME:A, particularly if it is a better quality game than ME:A itself, will almost certainly keep that small group as fans. Why would EA make another game for a small group when they could make a game for a larger group who might want something not Andromeda related? To me, it's not about winning old, disgruntled fans back... it's about acquiring new ones. Again with the disgruntled comment. Who are the ones you say are disgruntled? Serviceman walks into the Normandy Sees list of dead people on the wall Slowly walks back out You do realize that some of those names were killed when the Collectors destroyed the SR1, right? The other thing is that serviceman would likely have no idea how/why the names from ME2 died. He would likely be impressed that Shepard and one ship with a crew and squad were able to defeat the collectors. I get real tired of people here who purport to speak on behalf of the "majority" of fans. And who are these people you say that speak for the majority? Have any of them said they represent the majority or speak for the majority? Have I said how I hate how a few of you love to chop posts into little half sentences to interject your comments in between them. It just makes for long quoted sections when I respond.
1) Meh. We'll see what happens 2) Ditto 3) I said IF. 4) If I meant ME:A fans, I would have specified ME:A fans. Please see my breakdown in the earlier posts. The majority of fans are silent about what they like and are not represented here at all. 5) People who are still bitching about ME3 after 7 years are disgruntled. Seven years is a long, long time to stay upset about anything. 6) No comment. You're quote sirpetrakus. 7) You quoted one who has clearly done that in the past. Another just responded to a post I made on another thread declaring that 'everyone hated" ME:A... so, they are not only trying to say they represent the majority, but that they represent literally everyone. I'm sure you can go through the forums and find many, many more examples.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Apr 22, 2024 18:35:27 GMT
9,167
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,821
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Jul 10, 2019 15:28:06 GMT
You do realize that some of those names were killed when the Collectors destroyed the SR1, right? The other thing is that serviceman would likely have no idea how/why the names from ME2 died. He would likely be impressed that Shepard and one ship with a crew and squad were able to defeat the collectors. All I know is that I walked into a ship where way, way too many people died and the fact that I don't know the story, would scare me even more so. The only one who has consistently survived is Shepard and the rumour/idea that he is willing to sacrifice way too many people to get something done, which while sometimes necessary, the consistency with which people under his command have died, for whatever reason, is at the very least disconcerting. I would not want to server under that Shepard. I remember a Vietnam vet/ Star Trek fan telling me that he'd far rather serve under Picard than Kirk, for similar reasons. Kirk reminded him far too much of some officers who had a bad record with their redshirts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 15:36:22 GMT
My only "plan" is to allow Bioware space to make their own decisions based on what the WANT to do and then to wait to see what sort of game they make in the end and then, and only then, decide whether it's the sort of game that suit me. Geez. And I understand how you put it, but chasing trends has not, in so far, helped them one bit and you can already tell their next endeavor is going to be highly unlikely to prove fruitful, exactly because of the volatility of being a twelve year old. Like, the only things that I still like today, since I was twelve, are chocolate ice-creams and boobies. I even stopped playing Sonic and FIFA. You also have to consider that today's 12 year olds are going to be the 15 year olds of your next game's release, so if you're going to have to make make adjustments to appeal to that year's 12 year olds, you're going to end up with one huge mess of a game and an absolute joy to manage, to be sure. Any person with half a brain will tell you that is not going to succeed and you're going to hate every minute you work on it. But by all means, please, go ahead and commit corporate suicide, leave your 300-500 employees on the street when EA closes you down, after your third failed project. You can tell this specifically is a bad decision. They can do it if they want to, but it will not go well. Please, PLEASE, tell me you can see the number of unpredictably moving variables and you can see how improbable it is to get it right enough, to make that game a success. Ditto what alanc9 said. A company that stops trying to predict trends and adapt, as best they can, to emerging ones, stagnates and dies anyway. You're wanting them to chase a trend - it's just an old one, fixated on the past... what Bioware games used to be. Your way is not risk free either. There is a high probability that they won't be able to produce the same game they did back then because they themselves have changed. Their staff have changed. The interests of their staff have changed. They're hiring the 20-somthings that are mroe into the Battle Royale style of game than the early cinematic ARPG that ME1 was. It's something that Bioware has to work out and balance... and they have a lot more to consider than just your predicted backlash from what are essentially former fans if they don't pander to their 7-year desire to see ME3 redone. You're the one ignoring innumerable variables to paint the picture that the only thing they should consider is pandering to win back that old fan base.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 16:19:39 GMT
Well, to me it would seem like I just stepped into the ship of a crewmate murdering psychopath. Like Shepard doesn't consider the mission a success unless at least 5 crewmen die in the effort He has a picture of Zaeed framed over his bed, signed to the only one that made it out alive I'd be scared, alright? I'd be terrified. Somewhat intrigued, but not enough to put my life on the line. It also helps that the team has my back just as I have their back. If Shepard's killed so many teammates, so as not to be able to comprise a full 3 man squad, one of the three being himself, I sincerely doubt he's got anyone's back. No, I take that back, he may have some crewman's back ... down his sight Most high level leaders would find exchanging 30-40 for 10000 enemies a fair exchange No, not really. It'd really have to depend on the scenario, but maybe Shepard is the Butcher of Torfan, or he is the Sole Survivor of his previous squad, then there was perhaps that one time he, you know, killed three hundred thousand Batarians and cooperated with an extremist, human supremacist, terrorist group. I'm just saying, there's plenty of reason to bench a loose canon Shepard that has consistently also killed everyone that has stepped on his ship. At some point it stops being a coincidence. Like I get this fucker saved the galaxy, but perhaps he shouldn't be allowed to hold a gun no more. And it's not like there's anybody left to defend him, either. I mean, what's Shepard going to do? Lazarus project Garrus back to life and have him testify for him? And what would he say? "Your honour, I'd trust this man with my life. Clearly I was wrong the first time, though." If anything, they might pull a Jon Grissom on Shep and parade them around until they can't stand it anymore. That's what I'd wager. It depends on Shepard whether they'd be okay with that, though. In any case, I'd suspect that in the immediate future, young people would be lining up to work with/fpr them. I'm arguing that someone who has consistently eradicated each and every crew that's worked with him, people might not be so quick to work with Shepard, if there's not enough crewmen to at least fill in a three person squad, with carry over squadmates from previous games.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 16:57:31 GMT
You're wanting them to chase a trend - it's just an old one, fixated on the past... what Bioware games used to be. That's not what I'm saying either. You've yet again missed the point. Studios evolve. Bioware had evolved, going forward from Baldur's Gate to KotoR to Mass Effect, to Dragon Age. Since then, however, instead of looking at how they can up their game to the next level, they have been trying to replicate things that aren't things that made Bioware who they are today. Not to mention that neither CoD nor Skyrim are new concepts either. Neither is the Looter Shooter anymore. PUBG made Battle Royales popular with its release two years ago and that was on Early Access for a year before that. None of these ideas are in any way or form new. And its cool, I guess, if Bioware wants to become DICE, I guess, or maybe Bethesda, or even Treyarch, but numerous companies have tried that and failed, demonstrating that the endeavor is not possible. So let's give that another go and see how that turns up, shall we? There is a high probability that they won't be able to produce the same game they did back then because they themselves have changed. On a certain level, my answer to that is "thank God". Their staff have changed. The interests of their staff have changed. They're hiring the 20-somthings that are mroe into the Battle Royale style of game than the early cinematic ARPG that ME1 was. So you want a BR Andromeda 2? It's something that Bioware has to work out and balance... and they have a lot more to consider than just your predicted backlash from what are essentially former fans if they don't pander to their 7-year desire to see ME3 redone It's not predicted. It's true, I've linked several people to it, including yourself. People are laughing at the mere mention of a new Mass Effect. You're the one ignoring innumerable variables to paint the picture that the only thing they should consider is pandering to win back that old fan base. You are really rooted in this opinion that Bioware has never done anything wrong, that the only way forward is this, you are the only person correct and when I've made a successful case for my arguments on every front, your response to that is doubling down. So okay, you got Andromeda, which was, according to you, a financial and critical success, that put Mass Effect effectively on ice, because it was too fucking good for itself. Then, Bioware released Anthem, which ... is also a resounding success? Last time we talked about it, according to you it was a "mostly" dead horse. Which for me is a bad analogy, because mostly dead horses are generally put down, but what do I know, right? So for their next game you want them to do what exactly? What is the million dollar idea you have for the next Bioware game? Because so far, the only thing I've heard proposed so far, was make Andromeda 2 in the vein of the OT, which is basically no less backward thinking than remaking ME3, only not shit this time.
|
|
inherit
2044
0
Nov 10, 2016 16:47:07 GMT
10,073
AnDromedary
4,372
Nov 10, 2016 16:30:09 GMT
November 2016
andromedary
|
Post by AnDromedary on Jul 10, 2019 17:08:18 GMT
You're wanting them to chase a trend - it's just an old one, fixated on the past... what Bioware games used to be. That's not what I'm saying either. You've yet again missed the point. Studios evolve. Bioware had evolved, going forward from Baldur's Gate to KotoR to Mass Effect, to Dragon Age. Since then, however, instead of looking at how they can up their game to the next level, they have been trying to replicate things that aren't things that made Bioware who they are today. Not to mention that neither CoD nor Skyrim are new concepts either. Neither is the Looter Shooter anymore. PUBG made Battle Royales popular with its release two years ago and that was on Early Access for a year before that. None of these ideas are in any way or form new. And its cool, I guess, if Bioware wants to become DICE, I guess, or maybe Bethesda, or even Treyarch, but numerous companies have tried that and failed, demonstrating that the endeavor is not possible. So let's give that another go and see how that turns up, shall we? There is a high probability that they won't be able to produce the same game they did back then because they themselves have changed. On a certain level, my answer to that is "thank God". Their staff have changed. The interests of their staff have changed. They're hiring the 20-somthings that are mroe into the Battle Royale style of game than the early cinematic ARPG that ME1 was. So you want a BR Andromeda 2? It's something that Bioware has to work out and balance... and they have a lot more to consider than just your predicted backlash from what are essentially former fans if they don't pander to their 7-year desire to see ME3 redone It's not predicted. It's true, I've linked several people to it, including yourself. People are laughing at the mere mention of a new Mass Effect. You're the one ignoring innumerable variables to paint the picture that the only thing they should consider is pandering to win back that old fan base. You are really rooted in this opinion that Bioware has never done anything wrong, that the only way forward is this, you are the only person correct and when I've made a successful case for my arguments on every front, your response to that is doubling down. So okay, you got Andromeda, which was, according to you, a financial and critical success, that put Mass Effect effectively on ice, because it was too fucking good for itself. Then, Bioware released Anthem, which ... is also a resounding success? Last time we talked about it, according to you it was a "mostly" dead horse. Which for me is a bad analogy, because mostly dead horses are generally put down, but what do I know, right? So for their next game you want them to do what exactly? What is the million dollar idea you have for the next Bioware game? Because so far, the only thing I've heard proposed so far, was make Andromeda 2 in the vein of the OT, which is basically no less backward thinking than remaking ME3, only not shit this time. Sorry, but I don't see your point there in the beginning either. BioWare has tried to do exactly what they did before. They tried to whoop their narrative heavy games, the characters, etc. into a popular gameplay-genre of the current time. That is exactly what e.g. Mass Effect was. It was BW's spin on the third person shooter field, made popular by titles like Gears of War a few years earlier, etc. Same with KotOR, same with Jade Empire, and even while DA:O was supposed to be a spiritual successor of BG, they tried to give it a more modern spin.
DA:I transferred the story and characters into a more open world with more collectables as was the trend back then.
ME:A actually tried to go back to the ME1 roots and inserted some popular new mechanics like the crafting and an MP, similar to the very popular one in ME3.
Anthem did try to take BW's narrative focus and transfer it into the coop looter shooter. That was even their big PR phrase for the game. Only problem was that they fucked it up.
The only difference between those transfers and the ones made in the 2000s is that the quality wasn't up there lately. That's what they clearly need to work on. But they've always tried to inject that BW storytelling approach into new genres and they haven't really changed that approach at all in recent years as far as I can see. If anything, with DA:I and ME:A they tried to go "back to the roots" in may aspects of those games.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 17:32:48 GMT
You're wanting them to chase a trend - it's just an old one, fixated on the past... what Bioware games used to be. That's not what I'm saying either. You've yet again missed the point. Studios evolve. Bioware had evolved, going forward from Baldur's Gate to KotoR to Mass Effect, to Dragon Age. Since then, however, instead of looking at how they can up their game to the next level, they have been trying to replicate things that aren't things that made Bioware who they are today. Not to mention that neither CoD nor Skyrim are new concepts either. Neither is the Looter Shooter anymore. PUBG made Battle Royales popular with its release two years ago and that was on Early Access for a year before that. None of these ideas are in any way or form new. And its cool, I guess, if Bioware wants to become DICE, I guess, or maybe Bethesda, or even Treyarch, but numerous companies have tried that and failed, demonstrating that the endeavor is not possible. So let's give that another go and see how that turns up, shall we? There is a high probability that they won't be able to produce the same game they did back then because they themselves have changed. On a certain level, my answer to that is "thank God". Their staff have changed. The interests of their staff have changed. They're hiring the 20-somthings that are mroe into the Battle Royale style of game than the early cinematic ARPG that ME1 was. So you want a BR Andromeda 2? It's something that Bioware has to work out and balance... and they have a lot more to consider than just your predicted backlash from what are essentially former fans if they don't pander to their 7-year desire to see ME3 redone It's not predicted. It's true, I've linked several people to it, including yourself. People are laughing at the mere mention of a new Mass Effect. You're the one ignoring innumerable variables to paint the picture that the only thing they should consider is pandering to win back that old fan base. You are really rooted in this opinion that Bioware has never done anything wrong, that the only way forward is this, you are the only person correct and when I've made a successful case for my arguments on every front, your response to that is doubling down. So okay, you got Andromeda, which was, according to you, a financial and critical success, that put Mass Effect effectively on ice, because it was too fucking good for itself. Then, Bioware released Anthem, which ... is also a resounding success? Last time we talked about it, according to you it was a "mostly" dead horse. Which for me is a bad analogy, because mostly dead horses are generally put down, but what do I know, right? So for their next game you want them to do what exactly? What is the million dollar idea you have for the next Bioware game? Because so far, the only thing I've heard proposed so far, was make Andromeda 2 in the vein of the OT, which is basically no less backward thinking than remaking ME3, only not shit this time. Continually trying to exaggerate my position by putting words into my mouth is not going to make your argument sound... it diminishes it. I said Andromeda was not the unmitigated disaster you keep wanting to exaggerate it into being. It scored an average rating on Metacritic. That does not mean I'm at all making it out to be a "financial and critical success." Also, I have criticized things that Bioware have done in the past all over this website. I have been particularly critical of ME1, but I have also written posts containing criticism of all the Mass Effect games including ME:A... Yet, you insist on making such statements as I'm "rooted in this opinion that Bioware has never done anything wrong." When you get off your high horse and stop exaggerating to these extremes, perhaps we can have a discussion. Until then, it is as I said... pointless to even try to have a discussion with you on this matter.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 10, 2019 18:27:04 GMT
DA:I transferred the story and characters into a more open world with more collectables as was the trend back then.
ME:A actually tried to go back to the ME1 roots and inserted some popular new mechanics like the crafting and an MP, similar to the very popular one in ME3. But what they did was bog down the game with pointless MMO-like mechanics, which is why both those games got criticized for being "MMO-lites". Anthem did try to take BW's narrative focus and transfer it into the coop looter shooter. And Anthem suffered from the same problems, too. The only difference between those transfers and the one made in the 2000s is that the quality wasn't up there. That's what they clearly need to work on Yes, but first they need to - develop the tools for the job
- rebuild their name
- produce something to afford them the time
And right now, another trend chaser is not going to get them any of those. But they've always tried to inject that BW storytelling aproach into new genres and they haven't really changed that approach at all in recent years as far as I can see But as Anthem has vividly demonstrated, the story and writing can suffer, because of their technical inadequacies. If anything, with DA:I and ME:A they tried to go "back to the roots" in may aspects of those games. They tried to make a traditional Bioware experience with both of these titles, but while trying to imitate other titles, that they lacked the tools and expertise to pull through. So instead of getting a good Bioware experience, you're left with this middle ground approach that fails to capture either side. In addition to that, you have a lot of growing discontent from people within the fanbase that feel cheated over previous Bioware games, like DA2 and ME3, that will also not do your games any favours. And I have proposed my idea of what to do, to please a part of the disgruntled fanbase, to make it at least look like Bioware listened, while also pleasing EA with the Live Service part of the game and buying Bioware some time, in order to further develop their tools, while making a title based on things that Frostbyte is already equipped and capable of handling. And after that, Godspeed to you, Bioware, you're a bunch of smart blokes, you can figure it out, release Dragon Age: Royale, if that's your thing, here's Iron Bull doing the Floss.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,253
themikefest
14,808
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Jul 10, 2019 20:15:23 GMT
Have I said how I hate how a few of you love to chop posts into little half sentences to interject your comments in between them. It just makes for long quoted sections when I respond. Have I said that I like doing that? It's something I've been doing even on the old BSN. And yet you made an assumption without any proof to what you're talking about. You can't even come up with a reasonable answer as to why Bioware short-changed the ME2 characters, particularly the LI's. Too bad Bioware wasn't given more time for ME3 to know if the ME2 characters would have received more content. You don't have to post it directly. Your posts say otherwise. You have problems with people who either don't like MEA or mention having a problem by constantly referring to the trilogy that also has the same problem. You keep going after people who say whatever about Bioware by calling them out. You say they're not fans because they are still upset about ME3's ending. I would ask who are you to judge who is a fan or not? Because a few say bad things doesn't mean they're not a fan. That's what you've said And yet you've engaged with those folks. Why not ignore them? I agree about that poster mentioning everyone. It's obvious some liked the game. Would it bother me if someone says that and I like MEA? No. I would shrug it off and not worry about it. Interesting you didn't reply to this
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 22:24:27 GMT
Have I said how I hate how a few of you love to chop posts into little half sentences to interject your comments in between them. It just makes for long quoted sections when I respond. Have I said that I like doing that? It's something I've been doing even on the old BSN. And yet you made an assumption without any proof to what you're talking about. You can't even come up with a reasonable answer as to why Bioware short-changed the ME2 characters, particularly the LI's. Too bad Bioware wasn't given more time for ME3 to know if the ME2 characters would have received more content. You don't have to post it directly. Your posts say otherwise. You have problems with people who either don't like MEA or mention having a problem by constantly referring to the trilogy that also has the same problem. You keep going after people who say whatever about Bioware by calling them out. You say they're not fans because they are still upset about ME3's ending. I would ask who are you to judge who is a fan or not? Because a few say bad things doesn't mean they're not a fan. That's what you've said And yet you've engaged with those folks. Why not ignore them? I agree about that poster mentioning everyone. It's obvious some liked the game. Would it bother me if someone says that and I like MEA? No. I would shrug it off and not worry about it. Interesting you didn't reply to this 1) I really don't care that you like doing it. Just stating my personal opinion on the practice.
2) I said IF... do you understand what a hypothetical is? If you do, then this. The "if you don't, then it doesn't apply to you" should be understood.
3) You can keep accusing me of this all you like. It's simply not true. I do like Andromeda. That's not a crime. I've never said it was a perfect game and I have criticized it here on numerous occasions. That the OT had similar problems doesn't "upvote" Andromeda, rather it supports that the issues are not exclusive to Andromeda, but are more long standing issues with how Bioware constructs their RPGs. Some of them support that writing issues existed prior to Chris L'Etoile leaving (which, again, doesn't upvote Mac's writing, it just take's L'Etoile's off the pedestal some people put it on here.) That you take such offense at my pointing out a consistency in such problems because they involve the OT is, IMO, ridiculous. The OT is not the perfect game either (note, I said EITHER). So, look in a mirror and stop attacking me for not saying "I don't like ME:A." Why so defensive about someone other than yourself criticizing a 12 to 7-year-old game when you yourself have added lots of "things that don't make sense" to the list over those years?
4) Why not ignore me, then?... Sounds like you're trying to censor me from being able to state my opinions here on this website. Seven years is a long, long time to be so vocally upset about anything... and I will continue to be of the opinion that those individuals are no longer fans of Bioware. Anyone who complains about something about a product for 7 years can't even, IMO, call themselves a remotely satisfied customer.
5) I would argue that if I said "everyone liked ME:A" you would call me on it. You asked if anyone here had said they represented a majority, and I merely responded to show that I would say purporting that "everyone" holds the same opinion as yourself is the same as saying you're representing the majority. I really don't care how you would react to someone saying you like ME:A. It's irrelevant to this discussion, IMO.
6) I don't think the silent majority is a small group... and that's the group Bioware has to go after. I've been saying they shouldn't pander to a small group... which the people who are stilll 7-years later upset about ME3 and are demanding to see if "fixed" are a small group... and undoubtedly a much smaller group than the total number of fans who were originally outraged by ME3 and certainly a smaller group that the people who claim "everyone" still shares their outrage believe it is. Some were pacified by the EC and others have just ceased to care about it over time. Over time, the group that was outraged by ME:A will also shrink in size as time passes and more of them cease to care about it. The allegedly small group who liked ME:A probably will not shrink because people who like something like a game initially generally do not suddenly change their minds to hate it. Similarly, the group that liked ME3 probably won't shrink, just as the group that likes ME1 hasn't shrunk. That is not to say that the number of people actively stating they like ME:A won't shrink. It has (just as the numbers of people vocally gushing over the OT have shrunk and will likely also shrink over time as they move onto other games they enjoy.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Apr 22, 2024 18:35:27 GMT
9,167
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,821
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Jul 11, 2019 16:37:17 GMT
You can't even come up with a reasonable answer as to why Bioware short-changed the ME2 characters, particularly the LI's. What would you consider a "reasonable" answer to that question to look like? Put another way, what are you saying should Bio have cut from ME3 to make more time for the ME2 characters?
|
|
inherit
1227
0
3,662
Phantom
2,657
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Phantom on Jul 11, 2019 16:44:32 GMT
You can't even come up with a reasonable answer as to why Bioware short-changed the ME2 characters, particularly the LI's. What would you consider a "reasonable" answer to that question to look like? Put another way, what are you saying should Bio have cut from ME3 to make more time for the ME2 characters? Or Make the ME3 Longer of a game. Also by giving Bioware a bigger budget and longer development period.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 11, 2019 16:48:12 GMT
What would you consider a "reasonable" answer to that question to look like? Put another way, what are you saying should Bio have cut from ME3 to make more time for the ME2 characters? Or Make the ME3 Longer of a game. Also by giving Bioware a bigger budget and longer development period. This. And I'd also have cut Kai Leng out, as a freebie.
|
|
inherit
1227
0
3,662
Phantom
2,657
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Phantom on Jul 11, 2019 16:59:17 GMT
Or Make the ME3 Longer of a game. Also by giving Bioware a bigger budget and longer development period. This. And I'd also have cut Kai Leng out, as a freebie. I am thinking of a plot line with him losing his memories, getting tortured by Dutch and the Black Talon and having him possibly joining the Player's crew. And The Rescuing of Kai Leng does give the player more than enough evidence to have the System Alliance and Council to put a hit on Dutch for his betrayal of both Organization. Regardless what you feel towards Kai Leng, what Dutch did to Kai Leng will piss off many players off and yes even the Kai Leng Haters will hate Dutch for what he did to Kai Leng. Yes Expect to go extremely dark and upsetting for this mission. Yes If I was writing ME3, it will become a Hard M game due to the implied Nightmare Fuel of Reapers Harvest of the Galaxy. For shits and giggles for the Battle of London, Of course if you are a fan of a certain time traveling show, you will know the song and when it was played
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 16:59:17 GMT
What would you consider a "reasonable" answer to that question to look like? Put another way, what are you saying should Bio have cut from ME3 to make more time for the ME2 characters? Or Make the ME3 Longer of a game. Also by giving Bioware a bigger budget and longer development period. I agree that had ME3 had a longer development time and a larger budget, it would have likely been a longer game with more dialogue available to characters who were shortchanged. However, was that a reasonable solution for Bioware to have taken at the time though... given that Bioware itself had those budget and time limitations imposed on them by their parent company? ME1 also would have been a longer game and probably a better one had they not cut much of the content that was supposed to be there regarding Therum, so the issue of running out of time and having to cut content has been with the ME franchise from its inception as well.
It could also be said that if ME2's story had been constructed differently such that there were only 8 available recruits, of which Shepard selects 4 (bringing his squad to a maximum of 6), it would have been easier to include all of them in essential roles in ME3. I'm not saying this would have made a better ME2 though. We simply don't know that since that story was never written that way.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 11, 2019 17:06:12 GMT
However, was that a reasonable solution for Bioware to have taken at the time though... given that Bioware itself had those budget and time limitations imposed on them by their parent company? In the end, you'd have to consider if the trouble you'd be getting yourself into, would be worth the short term gain. My stance is that it wasn't. ME1 also would have been a longer game and probably a better one had they not cut much of the content that was supposed to be there regarding Therum, so the issue of running out of time and having to cut content has been with the ME franchise from its inception as well. Sure, but ME1 also benefited from a much larger development period than ME3. And on the other hand, Andromeda had a 5 year long development period. So there's definitely a line, between how much time you should take, before releasing a game and how well you're using that time, i.e. taking the perfectionist route or the overachiever route. At some point, you gotta put your game out there.
|
|