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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 1:58:30 GMT
Sounds like avoidance to me on the basis that inside you know there arent any other logical scenarios that explains why a 6 year development cycle by a developers top talent with full support from a wealthy publisher produced such a product in the end state that it was in. But thats ok. 6 years development.... You're asking to prove a negative, very hard if not impossible to proof a negative. Because how are you going to prove there's no other outcome? Again, you cannot offer up any other speculative reasons/scenarios for why a top talent team with many resources and 6 years of development launched a game in the shape it was in. 6 years of development.....
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Post by cypherj on Mar 10, 2019 1:59:45 GMT
This is two games in a row that have been released in an unacceptable state, after being given ample time to release a quality product. They're obviously problems in the process. Not with the developers, this isn't an 'A' or 'B' team situation. It's management, either at EA, Bioware or both.
I'm honestly worried for any future Bioware releases.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 10, 2019 2:11:43 GMT
You're asking to prove a negative, very hard if not impossible to proof a negative. Because how are you going to prove there's no other outcome? Again, you cannot offer up any other speculative reasons/scenarios for why a top talent team with many resources and 6 years of development launched a game in the shape it was in. 6 years of development..... Can you disprove I have a Unicorn?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 10, 2019 2:26:47 GMT
This is two games in a row that have been released in an unacceptable state, after being given ample time to release a quality product. They're obviously problems in the process. Not with the developers, this isn't an 'A' or 'B' team situation. It's management, either at EA, Bioware or both. I'm honestly worried for any future Bioware releases. I found both games to be in quite an acceptable state.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 10, 2019 2:36:15 GMT
This is two games in a row that have been released in an unacceptable state, after being given ample time to release a quality product. They're obviously problems in the process. Not with the developers, this isn't an 'A' or 'B' team situation. It's management, either at EA, Bioware or both. I'm honestly worried for any future Bioware releases. I found both games to be in quite an acceptable state. If one mode of your game (Quickplay) is literally unplayable at launch, that's an unacceptable state . If the sound is constantly going out on your game forcing people to have to keep restarting it in order to play it, that's an unacceptable state. If you're giving refunds to PS4 players because your game is shutting down their consoles during play, your game is in an unacceptable state. I would go on, but obviously they're people out there who will defend this game and Bioware regardless. However, there's what is called a consensus, and it's pretty clear for this game.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 12:36:53 GMT
Again, you cannot offer up any other speculative reasons/scenarios for why a top talent team with many resources and 6 years of development launched a game in the shape it was in. 6 years of development..... Can you disprove I have a Unicorn? Im not asking to disprove my 3 scenarios. Im asking anyone to see if they know of any other possible scenarios that led to Anthem being what it was at launch under the conditions of Bioware having 6 years of development with most (if not all) of their top talent working on it. All I see is people avoiding it because deep down inside, they (you?) probably agree with one of the 3 scenarios or agree that things may not have gone the way Bioware wanted it to but out of principle and of the possibility of me and many other Anthem haters being proved right, these people will stay silent. Like a poster above me pointed out....there will be people who defend this game and Bioware regardless. Top leaders at Bioware who worked on Anthem could stand in the middle of Times Square and say that "we botched the game....the game should have been in a better state at launch" and so on and even after that revelation, there would still be people here who would deny that and try to place blame on review score bombing and entitled gamers who made it their endeavor to see Bioware games fail and that there was nothing wrong with Anthem that Bioware is just saying that out of duress. No matter what, some people cannot just see a scenario in which something happened that was not in the favor of Bioware. Example....people swore up and down that there was going to be SP DLC for MEA due to EA mentioning that they were satisfied with MEA and that it was a significant contributor to their quarter sales. In addition to Bioware continuously patching the game and adding none MP patches/fixes as well as the ending hinting at Quarians arriving. Anyone who suggested otherwise was labeled as trolls and people who just wanted to instigate. Then when it was revealed that there would NOT be SP DLC, those same people ate crow and changed their tune by saying, "oh....well....Bioware was never planning to do SP DLC because....well....that was the plan all along. No DLC happened because it was planned that way, not because of the sales/reviews/reception of MEA" Follow on example would be how people said the only reason why MEA launched in the state it was in was cause it was made by a team if less talented/experienced developers and there was really only about 18 months of pure development time because EA wanted the focus, resources and top talent on Anthem. Which leaves me back at the start point....with all the focus, resources and top talent working on Anthem....whats the excuse this time? But its alright. This place is dead and has saw a significant drop in activity compared to the pre launch era. The subreddit which was at one point a "safe zone" for Anthem fans is now filled with people upset about loot and other stuff. Divison 2 launches in a few days and all it got was positive open beta responses, people see it has a huge improvement over D2 and believe Ubisoft has listened to its fans, especially when it comes to making endgame the #1 priority as well as a solid year 1 road map full of content. Once that happens, many players who havent already left Anthem will move over to D2 and Anthem will see a significant drop and player rates. Its a matter of time until that Jason S. Kotaku article surfaces that dives into what allowed Anthem to launch the way it did.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 10, 2019 13:13:38 GMT
There is reason for me to do. First i don't have evidence (and neither have you) and i don't feel the need to create scenarios just to feed a need like you constantly do. Sounds like avoidance to me on the basis that inside you know there arent any other logical scenarios that explains why a 6 year development cycle by a developers top talent with full support from a wealthy publisher produced such a product in the end state that it was in. But thats ok. 6 years development.... Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 10, 2019 13:35:05 GMT
Can you disprove I have a Unicorn? Im not asking to disprove my 3 scenarios. Im asking anyone to see if they know of any other possible scenarios that led to Anthem being what it was at launch under the conditions of Bioware having 6 years of development with most (if not all) of their top talent working on it. All I see is people avoiding it because deep down inside, they (you?) probably agree with one of the 3 scenarios or agree that things may not have gone the way Bioware wanted it to but out of principle and of the possibility of me and many other Anthem haters being proved right, these people will stay silent. Like a poster above me pointed out....there will be people who defend this game and Bioware regardless. Top leaders at Bioware who worked on Anthem could stand in the middle of Times Square and say that "we botched the game....the game should have been in a better state at launch" and so on and even after that revelation, there would still be people here who would deny that and try to place blame on review score bombing and entitled gamers who made it their endeavor to see Bioware games fail and that there was nothing wrong with Anthem that Bioware is just saying that out of duress. No matter what, some people cannot just see a scenario in which something happened that was not in the favor of Bioware. Example....people swore up and down that there was going to be SP DLC for MEA due to EA mentioning that they were satisfied with MEA and that it was a significant contributor to their quarter sales. In addition to Bioware continuously patching the game and adding none MP patches/fixes as well as the ending hinting at Quarians arriving. Anyone who suggested otherwise was labeled as trolls and people who just wanted to instigate. Then when it was revealed that there would NOT be SP DLC, those same people ate crow and changed their tune by saying, "oh....well....Bioware was never planning to do SP DLC because....well....that was the plan all along. No DLC happened because it was planned that way, not because of the sales/reviews/reception of MEA" Follow on example would be how people said the only reason why MEA launched in the state it was in was cause it was made by a team if less talented/experienced developers and there was really only about 18 months of pure development time because EA wanted the focus, resources and top talent on Anthem. Which leaves me back at the start point....with all the focus, resources and top talent working on Anthem....whats the excuse this time? But its alright. This place is dead and has saw a significant drop in activity compared to the pre launch era. The subreddit which was at one point a "safe zone" for Anthem fans is now filled with people upset about loot and other stuff. Divison 2 launches in a few days and all it got was positive open beta responses, people see it has a huge improvement over D2 and believe Ubisoft has listened to its fans, especially when it comes to making endgame the #1 priority as well as a solid year 1 road map full of content. Once that happens, many players who havent already left Anthem will move over to D2 and Anthem will see a significant drop and player rates. Its a matter of time until that Jason S. Kotaku article surfaces that dives into what allowed Anthem to launch the way it did. Oh, so you can't disprove I have a Unicorn, therefore Unicorns are real.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Mar 10, 2019 14:09:09 GMT
Sounds like avoidance to me on the basis that inside you know there arent any other logical scenarios that explains why a 6 year development cycle by a developers top talent with full support from a wealthy publisher produced such a product in the end state that it was in. But thats ok. 6 years development.... Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions. Net code doesn't exist...
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,572 Likes: 12,621
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 10, 2019 14:17:12 GMT
Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions. Net code doesn't exist... I could call it “code that deals with handling packages over network connections and constant server communication” if you take issue with the phrase, but that really wouldn’t change my point.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 16:45:39 GMT
Sounds like avoidance to me on the basis that inside you know there arent any other logical scenarios that explains why a 6 year development cycle by a developers top talent with full support from a wealthy publisher produced such a product in the end state that it was in. But thats ok. 6 years development.... Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions. See, wasnt so hard wasnt it? At least you offered up something. Essentially this is their first go around with this. My only rebuttal is what about SWTOR? What lessons learned from that could or should have been applied to Anthem? Now understand that SWTOR was #1 a PC only game and #2 made by Austin and not Edmonton. In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Look at Cyberpunk 2077....it will release "when its ready". The tagline used by CDPR. And I continue to use 6 years of development because the excuse with MEA was that it only had 18 months of development and if a Bioware "A team" had more time, thing would turn out differently. So thus....6 years of development....
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,572 Likes: 12,621
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 10, 2019 17:03:30 GMT
In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Should have, but EA upper management seems entirely fine with BioWare fixing huge bugs after release as long as they get the chance to show off good numbers to investors in their financials for the quarter. You won’t find an argument with me that EA has, shall we say, shortsighted priorities.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 10, 2019 17:04:55 GMT
Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions. See, wasnt so hard wasnt it? At least you offered up something. Essentially this is their first go around with this. My only rebuttal is what about SWTOR? What lessons learned from that could or should have been applied to Anthem? Now understand that SWTOR was #1 a PC only game and #2 made by Austin and not Edmonton. In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Look at Cyberpunk 2077....it will release "when its ready". The tagline used by CDPR.And I continue to use 6 years of development because the excuse with MEA was that it only had 18 months of development and if a Bioware "A team" had more time, thing would turn out differently. So thus....6 years of development.... 99% of Developers can never have that luxery. That is simply a fact. CDPR is a 100% independant studio that is sustained by GOG and, in the case of TW3, the Country of Poland. Rockstar is possibly the only other developer in the entire industry that can release games "when its ready", and thats because Rockstar makes Billions of dollars, per game. In fact, in CDPR's case, they have recently hit hard times financially due to GOG sales dropping off (due to Epic Store) and their last two games Gwent and Thronebreaker basically not selling. So even the lauded CDPR is almost operating in the red at the moment. So even they might, just might, have to "rush" Cyberpunk to make up for lost revenue.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 17:14:06 GMT
See, wasnt so hard wasnt it? At least you offered up something. Essentially this is their first go around with this. My only rebuttal is what about SWTOR? What lessons learned from that could or should have been applied to Anthem? Now understand that SWTOR was #1 a PC only game and #2 made by Austin and not Edmonton. In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Look at Cyberpunk 2077....it will release "when its ready". The tagline used by CDPR.And I continue to use 6 years of development because the excuse with MEA was that it only had 18 months of development and if a Bioware "A team" had more time, thing would turn out differently. So thus....6 years of development.... 99% of Developers can never have that luxery. That is simply a fact. CDPR is a 100% independant studio that is sustained by GOG and, in the case of TW3, the Country of Poland. Rockstar is possibly the only other developer in the entire industry that can release games "when its ready", and thats because Rockstar makes Billions of dollars, per game. In fact, in CDPR's case, they have recently hit hard times financially due to GOG sales dropping off (due to Epic Store) and their last two games Gwent and Thronebreaker basically not selling. So even the lauded CDPR is almost operating in the red at the moment. So even they might, just might, have to "rush" Cyberpunk to make up for lost revenue. www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2077-development-is-far-from-over/
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 17:19:09 GMT
In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Should have, but EA upper management seems entirely fine with BioWare fixing huge bugs after release as long as they get the chance to show off good numbers to investors in their financials for the quarter. You won’t find an argument with me that EA has, shall we say, shortsighted priorities. Fair enough, but what about SWTOR, nothing could have been learned from that and applied to Anthem?
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Post by smilesja on Mar 10, 2019 17:20:15 GMT
In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Should have, but EA upper management seems entirely fine with BioWare fixing huge bugs after release as long as they get the chance to show off good numbers to investors in their financials for the quarter. You won’t find an argument with me that EA has, shall we say, shortsighted priorities. Did EA honestly believe that Anthem would sell six million copies in a few months regardless of reception?
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 10, 2019 17:23:00 GMT
99% of Developers can never have that luxery. That is simply a fact. CDPR is a 100% independant studio that is sustained by GOG and, in the case of TW3, the Country of Poland. Rockstar is possibly the only other developer in the entire industry that can release games "when its ready", and thats because Rockstar makes Billions of dollars, per game. In fact, in CDPR's case, they have recently hit hard times financially due to GOG sales dropping off (due to Epic Store) and their last two games Gwent and Thronebreaker basically not selling. So even the lauded CDPR is almost operating in the red at the moment. So even they might, just might, have to "rush" Cyberpunk to make up for lost revenue. www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2077-development-is-far-from-over/Because CDPR has never lied right?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
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Post by cypherj on Mar 10, 2019 17:27:01 GMT
Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions. In addition, if things were so hard, why didnt EA allow Bioware more time? I mean for a project so big and complex as Anthem, with a lot riding on it....wouldnt you agree that EA should have given Bioware more time with Anthem? Looking at this as an accountant and not a gamer, there was no way they were going to push this back. They had to push back Battlefield V last year and readjust their earnings projections, which caused their stock to get hammered. Then they still missed earnings, and the stock got hammered again. If they pushed back Anthem, a game they expected to sell, what was it, 6 million in the first two weeks. I don't see any way they wouldn't have had to readjust their earnings predictions for this quarter. Having to do that two quarters in a row, and perhaps missing earning two quarters in a row. They just weren't going to risk it. So, from a business perspective, it's better to push the game out, fix it on the back end, and hope the player base is patient, or that those who quit come back. Whether they do or not, it's a next quarter problem.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 10, 2019 17:27:13 GMT
Because CDPR has never lied right? That video doesn’t count because reasons.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Mar 10, 2019 17:30:03 GMT
Net code doesn't exist... I could call it “code that deals with handling packages over network connections and constant server communication” if you take issue with the phrase, but that really wouldn’t change my point. Tell that to biower
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 17:35:30 GMT
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 10, 2019 17:37:45 GMT
Okay, how about this: Net code is hard. BioWare, a studio that has never built a game so dependent on online connectivity, struggled to get this right and the final product reflects this. I might also suspect that the QA department suffered some cuts due to corporate cost saving initiatives or maybe the press to release in the right fiscal timeframe left limited time to properly test the game with sufficient rigor on a wide variety of hardware, at least with all systems integrated.. I have no proof for any of this, but neither do you. Also: please stop repeating “6 years” as if you actually understood anything about game development beyond using it to prop up your preconceptions. Look at Cyberpunk 2077....it will release "when its ready". The tagline used by CDPR. ^ Video dated May 2015 Witcher 3 thread on Steam titled; " So many bugs? Still?" Posted Jan 5 2018
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 10, 2019 17:40:55 GMT
Because CDPR has never lied right? That video doesn’t count because reasons. No, that video does count cause that video presents facts....which was that Witcher 3 WAS downgraded. And yes there was backlash for the downgrade but because aside from the obvious graphical downgrade the game still got great review scores, sold well because it was still a solid game. Problem with Anthem was unlike TW3, it wasnt an industry game changer and had MANY other problems besides graphic downgrades (such as a stale and lifeless Fort Tarsis....no good stat screen.....loading screens etc.)
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 10, 2019 17:41:27 GMT
Should have, but EA upper management seems entirely fine with BioWare fixing huge bugs after release as long as they get the chance to show off good numbers to investors in their financials for the quarter. You won’t find an argument with me that EA has, shall we say, shortsighted priorities. Fair enough, but what about SWTOR, nothing could have been learned from that and applied to Anthem? Some of it probably could, but possibly not as much as you might think. In theory engine shouldn’t be part of it this issue I think, but it’s possible this is more of Bioware’s difficulty with Frostbite rearing it’s head since SWTOR wasn’t made on it. It’s also a different sort of online game. Truthfully I’m not at all qualified to say how much is or isn’t transferable.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 10, 2019 18:11:51 GMT
Because CDPR has never lied right? Thronebreaker sold under expectations but Gwent overall is doing fine and is currently getting it's first expansion. Saying they're in the red is also a massive exaggeration. GoG had to lay off some people but the dev side is the largest it's ever been at 500 people. Cyberpunk is most definitely not getting rushed. As to the downgrade, they fucked up and deserve criticism for it.
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