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Post by jclosed on Mar 11, 2019 17:53:14 GMT
In hindsight when Bioware closed their official forum marks for me the shift from the ending of the old Bioware in transit to today's Bioware. With a lot of energy from fans, this forum was created and thriving, unlike Bioware. Ironic in a sense!
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Yep - The old forum could be such a toxic place a times that reading it would melt away your eyeballs in a matter of seconds, but at least you had the impression you could somehow in some weird way reach the developers.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 11, 2019 17:55:53 GMT
In hindsight when Bioware closed their official forum marks for me the shift from the ending of the old Bioware in transit to today's Bioware. With a lot of energy from fans, this forum was created and thriving, unlike Bioware. Ironic in a sense!
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Yep - The old forum could be such a toxic place a times that reading it could melt away your eyeballs, but at least you had the impression you somehow in some weird way could reach the developers.
There were times when developers responded, or posted on the old forum. I remember Mike Laidlaw posting there.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Mar 11, 2019 17:56:19 GMT
Same here. If DA4 is like Anthem I'm going to be approaching it with a big stick and some armour... I want a complete game that I buy in one package, done up with a bow and perhaps coming with story DLCs down the line. A gem of a game that I can revisit when I please, no updates or add ons or stores. Jane Austen didn't keep the last chapter or Pride and Prejudice as a DLC to be read 6 months later, making the reader wait to see if Darcy and Lizzie got married or not. She didn't include a bonus chapter of the honeymoon, only available for those who bought the first 200 copies....why the fuck can't games just be fully created and completed creative works anymore? Lots of literature has come out initially in a "serial" form...first ones to come to mind is Dickens and Alexandre Dumas. GaaS is a essentially that, a serialized form of installment narrative that surrounds itself with other means of engagement until the next chapter drops. However, unlike the serialized stories in magazines, you a not paying for each installment, but getting them free to download as they come in. Honestly, I don't know if it will work but they are trying it regardless. This is a very broken analogy, to the point of inapplicability.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 11, 2019 18:00:25 GMT
The concerning trend I'm seeing is how many people are fine with paying for a sub standard product, on faith that the developer will fix it. Then on top of that, praising the developer for getting the product to the level it should have been when it was released.
It's like me buying a new car that I have to keep taking to the shop right away. Then praising the car company for getting a new car to a state where I can drive it without any issues.
This wouldn't be acceptable in pretty much any other industry.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 11, 2019 18:02:31 GMT
How so? GaaS is the reason there is so little content. I don’t see what positives it brings to the table as far as consumers go. It’s a monetization scheme. Adding content over time has been cited in the past but that means nothing to me. Adding content that was or should have been there at launch is not an appealing factor. Minimum viable product adds nothing for consumers. If they stripped stuff out of a game in order to deliver it in drips and drabs over time as incentive to players to keep playing and paying, this is not an attractive feature for consumers. I don’t want DA 4 to be ‘relevant’. Not sure what you mean. I want it to be a good and complete story. Same here. If DA4 is like Anthem I'm going to be approaching it with a big stick and some armour... I want a complete game that I buy in one package, done up with a bow and perhaps coming with story DLCs down the line. A gem of a game that I can revisit when I please, no updates or add ons or stores. Jane Austen didn't keep the last chapter or Pride and Prejudice as a DLC to be read 6 months later, making the reader wait to see if Darcy and Lizzie got married or not. She didn't include a bonus chapter of the honeymoon, only available for those who bought the first 200 copies....why the fuck can't games just be fully created and completed creative works anymore? Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 11, 2019 18:03:53 GMT
LOL at the ''one more shot''- option. Bioware fans have been saying that the next game is their LAST CHANCE TO REDEEM THEMSELVES AND TO SAVE THE COMPANY!!!1111 for nearly a decade now, starting with the development of DA2. To be honest I'm reeeallly skeptical of the future of Bye-o-ware, I bet EA is really, lets say '' highly unimpressed'' by Biowares track record and motivation to deliver a product worthy of their (former) reputation now.
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Post by samhain444 on Mar 11, 2019 18:10:44 GMT
Same here. If DA4 is like Anthem I'm going to be approaching it with a big stick and some armour... I want a complete game that I buy in one package, done up with a bow and perhaps coming with story DLCs down the line. A gem of a game that I can revisit when I please, no updates or add ons or stores. Jane Austen didn't keep the last chapter or Pride and Prejudice as a DLC to be read 6 months later, making the reader wait to see if Darcy and Lizzie got married or not. She didn't include a bonus chapter of the honeymoon, only available for those who bought the first 200 copies....why the fuck can't games just be fully created and completed creative works anymore? Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. "Trespasser" was never part of the original development but conceived after release per John Epler...so, it's either "Trespasser" post-launch or no "Trespasser". Since DA2's "Legacy" DLC dealt with releasing Corypheus from his prison...and Corypheus was the main antagonist in DA:I...did they sell us the final chapter of DA2 there as well?
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 11, 2019 18:12:59 GMT
Let's make a bet. Sriously - who is supposed to even pronounce dessro correctly? It ain't me.
So Is bet that Wilson is gonna take his hat first. The latest strategies of monetising dint work out so well in major releases. Now GaaS is under scrutiny - that's a couple of problematic alignments that not only seem to not pay off but turn out to be hazards to brands.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 11, 2019 18:13:52 GMT
Lots of literature has come out initially in a "serial" form...first ones to come to mind is Dickens and Alexandre Dumas. GaaS is a essentially that, a serialized form of installment narrative that surrounds itself with other means of engagement until the next chapter drops. However, unlike the serialized stories in magazines, you a not paying for each installment, but getting them free to download as they come in. Honestly, I don't know if it will work but they are trying it regardless. This is a very broken analogy, to the point of inapplicability. An actual argument here would be helpful.You might be right, but there's no case here.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 11, 2019 18:17:57 GMT
Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. "Trespasser" was never part of the original development but conceived after release per John Epler...so, it's either "Trespasser" post-launch or no "Trespasser". Since DA2's "Legacy" DLC dealt with releasing Corypheus from his prison...and Corypheus was the main antagonist in DA:I...did they sell us the final chapter of DA2 there as well? I'm not sure the actual facts matter here. The question is how the DLC model makes fans feel --- whether those feelings are grounded in reality isn't really relevant. AnDromedary should know better, but he doesn't. How many more players felt the same way?
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 11, 2019 18:27:25 GMT
Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. "Trespasser" was never part of the original development but conceived after release per John Epler...so, it's either "Trespasser" post-launch or no "Trespasser". Since DA2's "Legacy" DLC dealt with releasing Corypheus from his prison...and Corypheus was the main antagonist in DA:I...did they sell us the final chapter of DA2 there as well? I look at it more in the context of the story of the game. Legacy was what I would expect from a DLC, it was a side story for Hawke and his companions that they could choose to go on or not. Also, Knowing Corypheus from Legacy might have given you a nice "aha" moment in DA:I but it's not really necessary to understand him (I first played DA:I before ever playing Legacy. So I don't have much of an issue with Legacy. As for Trespasser, I don't doubt that they wrote and produced the DLC after the game itself. However, in the context of DA:I's story, Trespasser just feels like the proper ending to the game. It resolves a lot of plot lines, both for the inquisition as an organization, as well as for most of the essential characters. More than that it does set up the stage for DA4 ( unless they take DA4 into a completely unexpected direction). We'll see what happens and I am sure they'll put some explanation in (in the codex if nowhere else) but to me, it seems like Trespasser is to DA:I what Arrival was to ME2.
EDIT: Also, reading the posts that were posted in the mean time, I want to be clear that I don't even necessarily consider this to be an entirely bad thing. Trespasser was a wonderful DLC and extremely high quality and a decent amount of quantity of content. That's perfectly fair. All I am saying is that this "semi-episodic" model of releasing content that is relevant for the main plot-line is already a thing, for better or worse.
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The Legend Continues
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
XBL Gamertag: Mobius Y
PSN: Mobius_Y
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Post by Mobius Y on Mar 11, 2019 18:28:04 GMT
The concerning trend I'm seeing is how many people are fine with paying for a sub standard product, on faith that the developer will fix it. Then on top of that, praising the developer for getting the product to the level it should have been when it was released. It's like me buying a new car that I have to keep taking to the shop right away. Then praising the car company for getting a new car to a state where I can drive it without any issues. This wouldn't be acceptable in pretty much any other industry. It’s never okay. But it’s somehow gradually become acceptable, as I think the casual crowd have become more complacent.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 11, 2019 18:28:51 GMT
Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. "Trespasser" was never part of the original development but conceived after release per John Epler...so, it's either "Trespasser" post-launch or no "Trespasser". Since DA2's "Legacy" DLC dealt with releasing Corypheus from his prison...and Corypheus was the main antagonist in DA:I...did they sell us the final chapter of DA2 there as well? Would have preferred no Trespasser.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 11, 2019 18:30:05 GMT
Some dumbass company will probably even try to make a Netflix competitor with comic and Star Wars content. Maybe throw in almost a century’s worth of cartoon and live action movies and shows too.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 11, 2019 18:32:54 GMT
Bleh I’m optimistic for their future. If BioWare dies it dies and i really won’t care, but people have been saying RIP BioWare for so long and it’s still here producing games.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Mar 11, 2019 18:36:14 GMT
Same here. If DA4 is like Anthem I'm going to be approaching it with a big stick and some armour... I want a complete game that I buy in one package, done up with a bow and perhaps coming with story DLCs down the line. A gem of a game that I can revisit when I please, no updates or add ons or stores. Jane Austen didn't keep the last chapter or Pride and Prejudice as a DLC to be read 6 months later, making the reader wait to see if Darcy and Lizzie got married or not. She didn't include a bonus chapter of the honeymoon, only available for those who bought the first 200 copies....why the fuck can't games just be fully created and completed creative works anymore? Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. I was thinking about that as I wrote that comment. Luckily I bought the GOTY edition with all DLCs, but I imagined how pissed I would be if I'd played on launch and been denied the true ending.
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Post by shinobiwan on Mar 11, 2019 18:41:10 GMT
Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. I was thinking about that as I wrote that comment. Luckily I bought the GOTY edition with all DLCs, but I imagined how pissed I would be if I'd played on launch and been denied the true ending. I played DAI at launch and loved it. Aside from the sandbox, I really don't understand why people are critical of that game.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 11, 2019 18:45:37 GMT
Hmmm, to be honest, that is exactly how I already felt about DA:I though. I played the game right after it's initial release and I wasn't very impressed, especially with how it ended. Then, last year, I played it again with Trespasser and it was fantastic. Then I realized that BW had simply sold us the final chapter as DLC. I was thinking about that as I wrote that comment. Luckily I bought the GOTY edition with all DLCs, but I imagined how pissed I would be if I'd played on launch and been denied the true ending. I just added my post above to add this but I wasn't exactly that pissed, really. Surprised, sure but not really pissed because the DLC (which I also got fairly cheap with a GOTY upgrade on a sale) was fantastic and well worth the price. If I was pissed about anything then probably that BW did not really communicate in advance how important the DLC would be (probably because they didn't know yet themselves). In that sense, if they intend the same kind if story heavy DLCs in the future, it might actually be a good idea to announce DA4 as a sort of GaaS SP game that receives story content over the course of a year or so. Then people can decide from the get go if they want to get the game right at launch and play the content sort of episodically or if they want to rather wait a year, get the full package cheaper and fully patched later and the "binge-play" it all together.
Don;t get me wrong, I'd also like it best if they made one giant game in the first place and sold that but given the recidence we already had with ME2, ME3 and DA:I, it doesn't quite seem to work that way anymore unfortunately and in that case, I'd rather they communicate it honestly.
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Post by samhain444 on Mar 11, 2019 18:47:32 GMT
"Trespasser" was never part of the original development but conceived after release per John Epler...so, it's either "Trespasser" post-launch or no "Trespasser". Since DA2's "Legacy" DLC dealt with releasing Corypheus from his prison...and Corypheus was the main antagonist in DA:I...did they sell us the final chapter of DA2 there as well? As for Trespasser, I don't doubt that they wrote and produced the DLC after the game itself. However, in the context of DA:I's story, Trespasser just feels like the proper ending to the game. It resolves a lot of plot lines, both for the inquisition as an organization, as well as for most of the essential characters. More than that it does set up the stage for DA4 ( unless they take DA4 into a completely unexpected direction). We'll see what happens and I am sure they'll put some explanation in (in the codex if nowhere else) but to me, it seems like Trespasser is to DA:I what Arrival was to ME2.
EDIT: Also, reading the posts that were posted in the mean time, I want to be clear that I don't even necessarily consider this to be an entirely bad thing. Trespasser was a wonderful DLC and extremely high quality and a decent amount of quantity of content. That's perfectly fair. All I am saying is that this "semi-episodic" model of releasing content that is relevant for the main plot-line is already a thing, for better or worse.
For me, personally, I never felt "Trespasser" was a "true ending" to "DA:I" so I never had an issue with. I played "DA:I" at launch and the ending we got, with Corypheus' defeat and outing Solas as the one who ignited the events of "DA:I", felt sufficient for the game's narrative arc. After that, "Trespasser" felt like an epilogue DLC in that is acknowledged "Da:I's" ending while simultaneously, and very firmly, pointing the franchise in a very specific direction with a very specific protagonist. So much so that to not have the Inquisitor be a major part of the next DA installment would make "Trespasser" rather questionable.
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Post by dirtrider00 on Mar 11, 2019 18:52:45 GMT
If DA 4 is GAAS it’s a guaranteed no buy for me. Especially after seeing what it did to this game. Really? I think it's GAAS that will rescue Anthem and when DA4 launches, GAAS will keep DA4 relevant. Dumb question but what is GAAS? Been seeing it referred to alot but my old brain can't seem to put 2 and 2 together on this one.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Mar 11, 2019 18:54:20 GMT
I was thinking about that as I wrote that comment. Luckily I bought the GOTY edition with all DLCs, but I imagined how pissed I would be if I'd played on launch and been denied the true ending. I played DAI at launch and loved it. Aside from the sandbox, I really don't understand why people are critical of that game. Oh it's my favourite DA game, I just think the ending was disappointing.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 11, 2019 19:00:02 GMT
As for Trespasser, I don't doubt that they wrote and produced the DLC after the game itself. However, in the context of DA:I's story, Trespasser just feels like the proper ending to the game. It resolves a lot of plot lines, both for the inquisition as an organization, as well as for most of the essential characters. More than that it does set up the stage for DA4 ( unless they take DA4 into a completely unexpected direction). We'll see what happens and I am sure they'll put some explanation in (in the codex if nowhere else) but to me, it seems like Trespasser is to DA:I what Arrival was to ME2. EDIT: Also, reading the posts that were posted in the mean time, I want to be clear that I don't even necessarily consider this to be an entirely bad thing. Trespasser was a wonderful DLC and extremely high quality and a decent amount of quantity of content. That's perfectly fair. All I am saying is that this "semi-episodic" model of releasing content that is relevant for the main plot-line is already a thing, for better or worse.
For me, personally, I never felt "Trespasser" was a "true ending" to "DA:I" so I never had an issue with. I played "DA:I" at launch and the ending we got, with Corypheus' defeat and outing Solas as the one who ignited the events of "DA:I", felt sufficient for the game's narrative arc. After that, "Trespasser" felt like an epilogue DLC in that is acknowledged "Da:I's" ending while simultaneously, and very firmly, pointing the franchise in a very specific direction with a very specific protagonist. So much so that to not have the Inquisitor be a major part of the next DA installment would make "Trespasser" rather questionable. I played DAI at launch and loved it. Aside from the sandbox, I really don't understand why people are critical of that game. I liked that game as well. Just thought the ending, while not really bad was just a bit ... straight forward (apart from the epilogue scene with Solas that Trespasser elaborated on).
So yea, if Trespasser had never existed, they could have just taken up the plot points that it covered in a DA4 and developed it all there. But now that it does exist and that this part of the story was told, it would be hard to ignore or leave out (and while not necessarily illogical, it would also be weird for the overall narrative to tell it all over again for a new protag). It is so intertwined with the main story now, that I think playing a future DA game (again, if it goes in the direction that we all think it will and that the teaser suggests) will be weird if you haven't experienced it. Making such an integral part of the story into a DLC is already a way of episodic story telling IMO.
And it's not only the main story either. You can also develop the Inquisitor and the Inquisition in very different and relevant directions in the DLC. It would be disappointing if they wouldnt' pick up on that in the next game IMO. For that as well, it would be important to have played it and that makes it - to me - an essential part of the series, not some optional DLC.
Since I think it's likely they'll do something similar in the enxt game, that's why I am saying, it might just be fair to adcertise it to the customers as an SP focused story based GaaS episodic experience, where they launch one day with a good chunk of the story but continue it throughout a certain period of time through DLCs. That way, they can put as importnatn (or also non-important) plot points into their DLCs as they like without facing the potential criticism that theyblur the lines between purely optional and essential content.
Alternatively, make one game and release it with all the bells and whistles. Then do make more side story focused DLCs (like Jaws of Hakkon for example).
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Post by sket74 on Mar 11, 2019 19:00:25 GMT
Really? I think it's GAAS that will rescue Anthem and when DA4 launches, GAAS will keep DA4 relevant. Dumb question but what is GAAS? Been seeing it referred to alot but my old brain can't seem to put 2 and 2 together on this one.
Games As a Service, Bud...
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Post by samhain444 on Mar 11, 2019 19:01:14 GMT
I was thinking about that as I wrote that comment. Luckily I bought the GOTY edition with all DLCs, but I imagined how pissed I would be if I'd played on launch and been denied the true ending. I just added my post above to add this but I wasn't exactly that pissed, really. Surprised, sure but not really pissed because the DLC (which I also got fairly cheap with a GOTY upgrade on a sale) was fantastic and well worth the price. If I was pissed about anything then probably that BW did not really communicate in advance how important the DLC would be (probably because they didn't know yet themselves). In that sense, if they intend the same kind if story heavy DLCs in the future, it might actually be a good idea to announce DA4 as a sort of GaaS SP game that receives story content over the course of a year or so. Then people can decide from the get go if they want to get the game right at launch and play the content sort of episodically or if they want to rather wait a year, get the full package cheaper and fully patched later and the "binge-play" it all together.
Don;t get me wrong, I'd also like it best if they made one giant game in the first place and sold that but given the recidence we already had with ME2, ME3 and DA:I, it doesn't quite seem to work that way anymore unfortunately and in that case, I'd rather they communicate it honestly.
I think the only way that DA4 can work as a GaaS and not receive a ton backlash from the fanbase that could potentially torpedo it is: 1) No Co-OP in the main game...a Multiplayer mode is to be expected at this point but CO-OP would most assuredly eliminate your party companions and that would be death for the gaem. 2) No "always online"...it makes senses for "Anthem" and what they are trying to do in that genre but it would fail miserably with the core fan base 3) The main story/side missions/narrative content would have to meaty and substantial...having a 15 hr initial campaign with the promise of 4-8 hr regular installments would just be weird and disjointed How it could work: 1) Smaller DLC drops that are companion-specific, especially for romantic interests, that allow them to tug on smaller plot-threads peripheral to main plot 2) Vanity items like armor sets, casual clothes, formal attire, etc that can be dropped per community request 3) Post-main game epilogue installments a la "Trespasser" that can move the narrative forward a year or two down the road in anticipation of "DA5's" release I think something like the delivery method of DLC and store could be something similar to what Ubisoft has for "AC:O" minus the XP/Coin boost nonsense
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Post by Steelcan on Mar 11, 2019 19:08:39 GMT
I played DAI at launch and loved it. Aside from the sandbox, I really don't understand why people are critical of that game. Oh it's my favourite DA game, I just think the ending was disappointing. Honestly, Trespasser is my favorite part of the game, it was the best example of breaking from the open world hub areas like we had in the base game. Admittedly the Descent was a step away, but Trespasser was a full on "linear" experience ala DA:O and DA2 and that's what I'd like more of going forwards. Plus the realization of a couple of important decisions in game.
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