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Post by acehilator on Mar 11, 2019 15:00:04 GMT
Just posted this in the sceptisim thread, but on second thought this warrants increased visibility, so you guys can make informed choices on how to spend your spare time.
Sources are from reddit, where the hardcore number crunchers reside. Lots of math ahead.
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aznricepuff
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: aznricepuff
XBL Gamertag: aznricepuff
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by aznricepuff on Mar 11, 2019 16:36:07 GMT
Read through both posts. The loot drop one makes some incorrect assumptions (most notably that any item can roll any of the 84 inscriptions on any of the slots...we already know that not all gear can roll any given inscription and also that major and secondary inscription slots choose from different pools of inscriptions), so the reality is not quite as bad as it makes it out to be. That being said, there are still major problems with the inscription system. The most pressing one is that DPS gear and weapons are absolutely dependent on a single type of inscription (+damage) to be worthwhile. They either need to rethink having +200% damage inscriptions. Alternatively, they could rework the system so that everything has a guaranteed gear-specific damage-augmenting roll of some kind (either straight +damage%, +crit damage%, +fire/ice/elec/acid proc damage, etc) - this way you can just choose whichever damage inscription works best for your build instead of everyone chasing the same +damage inscription.
The scaling issue is complicated. I bet Bioware went with an additive model to avoid the DPS snowballing that inevitably comes from multiplicative models. The poster makes it seem like Bioware just needs to git gud at balancing multiplicative bonuses, but it's not that simple. You either run the risk (read: guaranteed to make happen thanks to min-maxers) of enabling game-breaking builds that are ludicrously out of proportion compared to "typical" builds or you make every single bonus/piece of gear have relatively small bonuses (so that they can't snowball quite as hard), which just gives you a game where no single piece of loot is terribly exciting. The best option here is probably to implement a limited, hybrid additive/multiplicative model. For example, make all bonuses from temporary sources (e.g. MW procs) multiplicative with permanent bonuses (those from inscriptions or components) but all bonuses in one category additive with one another.
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Mobius Y
N3
The Legend Continues
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
XBL Gamertag: Mobius Y
PSN: Mobius_Y
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Post by Mobius Y on Mar 11, 2019 16:58:57 GMT
Multiplicative bonuses always lead to much higher snowballing which can make certain builds or even classes trivialize harder difficulties, compared to a more support-oriented build or class. Because why worry about things like survivability and crowd control when it’s faster to maximize damage multipliers and kill shit super quickly? No need for crowd control or team support when everything’s dead. Best recent example is Infiltrators in Mass Effect 3. Tactical Win made things easy mode for any caliber of player - for more reasons than just damage output but that’s beside the point. Let’s pretend for one minute that Interceptors had Masterwork components and gear that could add up to a total of six multiplicative bonuses to melee damage, which all stack and synergize, and could all proc together simultaneously within three or four seconds. Guess what you’d see randoms in Grandmaster difficulties using all the time? Or at least those who played enough to acquire some or all of the gear to do it. It’s dumb that additive bonuses have diminishing returns and essentially hard caps bonuses, however on the flip side it allows experimentation and causes different setups to be more viable than straight up damage output. For Anthem though, that’s more likely a hindrance on Grandmaster III.
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Pichecuate
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Origin: Pichecuate
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Post by Pichecuate on Mar 11, 2019 17:40:39 GMT
Multiplicative bonuses always lead to much higher snowballing which can make certain builds or even classes trivialize harder difficulties, compared to a more support-oriented build or class. Because why worry about things like survivability and crowd control when it’s faster to maximize damage multipliers and kill shit super quickly? No need for crowd control or team support when everything’s dead. Best recent example is Infiltrators in Mass Effect 3. Tactical Win made things easy mode for any caliber of player - for more reasons than just damage output but that’s beside the point. Let’s pretend for one minute that Interceptors had Masterwork components and gear that could add up to a total of six multiplicative bonuses to melee damage, which all stack and synergize, and could all proc together simultaneously within three or four seconds. Guess what you’d see randoms in Grandmaster difficulties using all the time? Or at least those who played enough to acquire some or all of the gear to do it. It’s dumb that additive bonuses have diminishing returns and essentially hard caps bonuses, however on the flip side it allows experimentation and causes different setups to be more viable than straight up damage output. For Anthem though, that’s more likely a hindrance on Grandmaster III. Interceptors are absurdly OP and pretty well ruin most pugs (much like silent sisters do in DAIMP). Today I watched an Interceptor essentially solo a GM3 (contract) Escari in about 90 secs. As far as I’m concerned, the best Interceptor is a dead Interceptor.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 12, 2019 15:28:26 GMT
Yet another wtf: the damage scaling patch that's supposed to fix ults/melee/combos damage by using average gear levels can be turned into a big damage buff if you drop all your support gear. PSA: Removing your support items massively increases melee/combo/proc/ult damageIt's just possible this was intentional, trading off defense for glass cannon offense, but it could just as easily be a mistake by not accounting for all the stuff that contributes to the denominator in the average calculation, given the track record to date.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 12, 2019 16:19:33 GMT
so you guys can make informed choices on how to spend your spare time. I'm enjoying the game so the analytics matter very little as they are what what they are. If they don't make sense going forward, I expect BioWare will make balance changes, but for now I'm growing in power (I think) and am getting new stuff.
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Post by acehilator on Mar 12, 2019 17:11:04 GMT
I'm enjoying the game so the analytics matter very little as they are what what they are. If they don't make sense going forward, I expect BioWare will make balance changes, but for now I'm growing in power (I think) and am getting new stuff. Gear progression works until you arrive at GM1. From then on out the game falls off a cliff, and the horrible loot system, broken game design and host of bugs make it impossible to progress further in any reasonable manner. Reason why I stopped playing two days ago, there's no point. Tried equipping my Storm & Interceptor, went with several epics instead of MWs because they are the better choice, was wondering why the Javelins didn't feel more powerful, when the information about purely additive damage increases and today's news about epic items lowering your damage because effing scaling is broken became available. Every few days the community digs out another Dev fail, with the last truly hardcore members of Bioware's Faithful Militant still defending their every snafu. Handy copy&paste chart, just insert Xs as deemed appropriate: [ ] They are only human, cut them some slack! [ ] It's their first looter shooter, cut them some slack! [ ] It's a GaaS game, cut them some slack! [ ] It's only a minor bug, cut them some slack! [ ] They know what they are doing, cut them slack! [ ] Live service games are difficult, cut them some slack! [ ] It's only been a few weeks since the release, cut them some slack! Yeah no, ain't nobody got time for that. Most of the problems that surfaced the last week are running so deep that there is no way in hell that they could possibly have survived the first round of internal Q&A like 24 months ago at the latest, and some of them (like purely additive scaling) needed to be caught at the first Dev meeting regarding the topic of items and progression, sooo... 48 months ago? But obviously, just put some Xs into the selection above, because I'm just a raging hater with no ground to stand on, and
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Post by lennybusker on Mar 12, 2019 17:38:44 GMT
I'm enjoying the game so the analytics matter very little as they are what what they are. If they don't make sense going forward, I expect BioWare will make balance changes, but for now I'm growing in power (I think) and am getting new stuff. Gear progression works until you arrive at GM1. From then on out the game falls off a cliff, and the horrible loot system, broken game design and host of bugs make it impossible to progress further in any reasonable manner. Reason why I stopped playing two days ago, there's no point. Tried equipping my Storm & Interceptor, went with several epics instead of MWs because they are the better choice, was wondering why the Javelins didn't feel more powerful, when the information about purely additive damage increases and today's news about epic items lowering your damage because effing scaling is broken became available. Every few days the community digs out another Dev fail, with the last truly hardcore members of Bioware's Faithful Militant still defending their every snafu. Handy copy&paste chart, just insert Xs as deemed appropriate: [ ] They are only human, cut them some slack! [ ] It's their first looter shooter, cut them some slack! [ ] It's a GaaS game, cut them some slack! [ ] It's only a minor bug, cut them some slack! [ ] They know what they are doing, cut them slack! [ ] Live service games are difficult, cut them some slack! [ ] It's only been a few weeks since the release, cut them some slack! Yeah no, ain't nobody got time for that. Most of the problems that surfaced the last week are running so deep that there is no way in hell that they could possibly have survived the first round of internal Q&A like 24 months ago at the latest, and some of them (like purely additive scaling) needed to be caught at the first Dev meeting regarding the topic of items and progression, sooo... 48 months ago? But obviously, just put some Xs into the selection above, because I'm just a raging hater with no ground to stand on, and He literally just got his main into full masterworks like, a day ago. it's useless trying to discuss endgame problems with a player that plays at a snail's pace after 100 hours or whatever. It's a fundamentally different player experience, barely even the same game. You can't even have a discussion with one another. It's like a person talking about the pros and cons of the current rules in the NFL versus someone insisting that the NBA rules are perfectly fine as is
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 12, 2019 17:54:13 GMT
I'm enjoying the game so the analytics matter very little as they are what what they are. If they don't make sense going forward, I expect BioWare will make balance changes, but for now I'm growing in power (I think) and am getting new stuff. Gear progression works until you arrive at GM1. From then on out the game falls off a cliff, and the horrible loot system, broken game design and host of bugs make it impossible to progress further in any reasonable manner. Reason why I stopped playing two days ago, there's no point. Tried equipping my Storm & Interceptor, went with several epics instead of MWs because they are the better choice, was wondering why the Javelins didn't feel more powerful, when the information about purely additive damage increases and today's news about epic items lowering your damage because effing scaling is broken became available. Every few days the community digs out another Dev fail, with the last truly hardcore members of Bioware's Faithful Militant still defending their every snafu. Handy copy&paste chart, just insert Xs as deemed appropriate: [ ] They are only human, cut them some slack! [ ] It's their first looter shooter, cut them some slack! [ ] It's a GaaS game, cut them some slack! [ ] It's only a minor bug, cut them some slack! [ ] They know what they are doing, cut them slack! [ ] Live service games are difficult, cut them some slack! [ ] It's only been a few weeks since the release, cut them some slack! Yeah no, ain't nobody got time for that. Most of the problems that surfaced the last week are running so deep that there is no way in hell that they could possibly have survived the first round of internal Q&A like 24 months ago at the latest, and some of them (like purely additive scaling) needed to be caught at the first Dev meeting regarding the topic of items and progression, sooo... 48 months ago? But obviously, just put some Xs into the selection above, because I'm just a raging hater with no ground to stand on, and This is also assuming you believe the developer saw this as a problem, mind you. Perhaps part of the issues is conflicting design philosophies between the players expectations of the game like this, and BioWare's overall design for what they planned on doing. The current feedback they keep getting is basically asking the devs to make it LIKE Destiny in terms of its RNG and play experience, balance and what have you. At least from what it seems like on the reddits, that is the impression I get for the loot drop calls and honestly kind of stupid player protests. A lot of fair critique to make on this situation, but the best arguments I heard is actually not tweaking the loot drops, but tweaking the loot generation and making a gap between Masterworks and Legendaries bigger; if there is no point in playing beyond GM1 then BioWare needs to find a way to make that worthwhile. But I guess my outlook on this is more of a pragmatic one; their way of making the game is not what fans wanted, so they are going to be constantly adjusting to fan demands to change their vision of what it was to be. If that is going to take time, so be it. Not like the game is going anywhere, or most of the people playing for that matter. I would expect a lot of drop-in and out of play from the gaming community, since that seems to be the case for a TON of games in this genre. I find that kind of disheartening most of all though, as I would rather BioWare tell their fans to hush up and just make the game they wanted to, but I know I am in the minority there.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 12, 2019 17:59:25 GMT
He literally just got his main into full masterworks like, a day ago. it's useless trying to discuss endgame problems with a player that plays at a snail's pace after 100 hours or whatever. This is the truth of it, I suspect. (160 hours so far) I have yet to attempt GM2. I have spoken to everyone in Fort Tarsis, collected all the collectibles and watched Korox grazing. If I feel it's too hard I'll take it down a level and conversely the other way. This may also be part of the contention, as a 'looter shooter' player could be getting excited over very different things to a 'story action-rpg' player.
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Post by PillarBiter on Mar 12, 2019 19:06:01 GMT
He literally just got his main into full masterworks like, a day ago. it's useless trying to discuss endgame problems with a player that plays at a snail's pace after 100 hours or whatever. This is the truth of it, I suspect. (160 hours so far) I have yet to attempt GM2. I have spoken to everyone in Fort Tarsis, collected all the collectibles and watched Korox grazing. If I feel it's too hard I'll take it down a level and conversely the other way. This may also be part of the contention, as a 'looter shooter' player could be getting excited over very different things to a 'story action-rpg' player. Ah. Sofa you should know me as a bioware promoter. Still am. But I actually AM at gm2 now, for a couple of days. And I’m sad to say, as much fun as i had up until and including gm1, this is kind of gone now. You’ll see. You’ll... *sniff* see...
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monkeylungs
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by monkeylungs on Mar 13, 2019 3:07:55 GMT
Bioware's general RPG system for the design fundamentals of this POS is WANK. Kicked out of dungeon master's underground nerd circle with the bad hand!
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 15, 2019 16:40:12 GMT
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Post by lennybusker on Mar 15, 2019 17:40:06 GMT
Community manager response: media.giphy.com/media/XD4qHZpkyUFfq/giphy.gifThis fixes the way to "cheat" the system by not equipping an item but doesn't fix the fundamental flaw that it's better to equip a Legendary useless stick rather than a well-rolled Epic item. My god the incompetence is jaw-dropping.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 16, 2019 8:48:10 GMT
This fixes the way to "cheat" the system by not equipping an item but doesn't fix the fundamental flaw that it's better to equip a Legendary useless stick rather than a well-rolled Epic item. My god the incompetence is jaw-dropping. BioWare just likes "workarounds" instead of actual fixes. Remember how they fixed capitulated to the banter bug in Dragon Age Inquisition? By having clickable banter activation hotspots in Trespasser. I wouldn't be overly surprised if the - obviously inferior, according to the game - option to play the story missions solo were not an intended way to play but a mere workaround for not getting all the mission dialogue when in a group that's split up too far despite the best efforts of the popular tether mechanic.
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Post by aglomeracja on Mar 16, 2019 9:14:05 GMT
Community manager response: media.giphy.com/media/XD4qHZpkyUFfq/giphy.gifThis fixes the way to "cheat" the system by not equipping an item but doesn't fix the fundamental flaw that it's better to equip a Legendary useless stick rather than a well-rolled Epic item. My god the incompetence is jaw-dropping. Nah, it's just that fixing "the fundamental flaw" is not a fix per se, but a complete rework of an existing complex system.
If they want to make quick changes that won't break the whole game completely, they have to use "clever solutions" like this.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 16, 2019 10:56:00 GMT
Community manager response: media.giphy.com/media/XD4qHZpkyUFfq/giphy.gifThis fixes the way to "cheat" the system by not equipping an item but doesn't fix the fundamental flaw that it's better to equip a Legendary useless stick rather than a well-rolled Epic item. My god the incompetence is jaw-dropping. The scaling system is all messed up right now. Now if this is some blunder with the patch or a systemic shortcoming I cannot say. If the whole thing isn't built to support some crew to fidlle with some inputs to balance it within given parameters wheels gonna go falling off. If it is systemic they can only cover up some symptoms. Or maybe the given parameters turned out not to actually serve the purpose.
Right now it'll fly. But if it busted one engine, is gonna need to land to fix it or it'll crash sooner or later.
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Post by lennybusker on Mar 16, 2019 11:22:51 GMT
This fixes the way to "cheat" the system by not equipping an item but doesn't fix the fundamental flaw that it's better to equip a Legendary useless stick rather than a well-rolled Epic item. My god the incompetence is jaw-dropping. BioWare just likes "workarounds" instead of actual fixes. Remember how they fixed capitulated to the banter bug in Dragon Age Inquisition? By having clickable banter activation hotspots in Trespasser. I wouldn't be overly surprised if the - obviously inferior, according to the game - option to play the story missions solo were not an intended way to play but a mere workaround for not getting all the mission dialogue when in a group that's split up too far despite the best efforts of the popular tether mechanic. Haha jesus yeah, the banter bug. I'd almost forgotten. Lately I've been crediting DAI as the only competent Bioware Frostbite game but it still had its own share of pants of head idiotic bugs that never got fixed. It's like in Anthem their solution for people requesting a social space to mingle with other people in their javelins - uhhhh, ok quick, large room, throw in some fort tarsis art assets, few interactable points, and bingo. launch it.
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Post by biggydx on Mar 16, 2019 13:43:29 GMT
Multiplicative bonuses always lead to much higher snowballing which can make certain builds or even classes trivialize harder difficulties, compared to a more support-oriented build or class. Because why worry about things like survivability and crowd control when it’s faster to maximize damage multipliers and kill shit super quickly? No need for crowd control or team support when everything’s dead. Best recent example is Infiltrators in Mass Effect 3. Tactical Win made things easy mode for any caliber of player - for more reasons than just damage output but that’s beside the point. Let’s pretend for one minute that Interceptors had Masterwork components and gear that could add up to a total of six multiplicative bonuses to melee damage, which all stack and synergize, and could all proc together simultaneously within three or four seconds. Guess what you’d see randoms in Grandmaster difficulties using all the time? Or at least those who played enough to acquire some or all of the gear to do it. It’s dumb that additive bonuses have diminishing returns and essentially hard caps bonuses, however on the flip side it allows experimentation and causes different setups to be more viable than straight up damage output. For Anthem though, that’s more likely a hindrance on Grandmaster III. Interceptors are absurdly OP and pretty well ruin most pugs (much like silent sisters do in DAIMP). Today I watched an Interceptor essentially solo a GM3 (contract) Escari in about 90 secs. As far as I’m concerned, the best Interceptor is a dead Interceptor. Duoing Nightmare Dragons Keep with Silent Sister was so easy.
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