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Post by alanc9 on Aug 13, 2019 20:04:20 GMT
But that just proves they Indoctrinated Gamble too.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 14, 2019 20:01:28 GMT
No. They finally said that the breath scene meant shep is alive and it wasn't a death rattle or something like that. He lives if you get the breath scene. It might not make sense but shepard should have been reduced to ash when the collectors space him and he landed on that planet in ME2. Or him surviving harbingers beam at the beam run. or several other incidents. That scene makes complete sense. The surroundings look a lot like London, so being on a hill where you can hear wind blowing in the background, with concrete blocks and rebar would suggest Shepard has been in London the entire time.
Of course, the game doesn't explicitly state where he is, and that's what you were expecting I would guess. I meant shepard being alive after re entering the atmosphere might not make sense. This is assuming of course that shep was on the citadel and met starkid. Not a dream or hallucination which is what I think your trying to say since obviously he would still be in london them
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 20:18:42 GMT
That scene makes complete sense. The surroundings look a lot like London, so being on a hill where you can hear wind blowing in the background, with concrete blocks and rebar would suggest Shepard has been in London the entire time.
Of course, the game doesn't explicitly state where he is, and that's what you were expecting I would guess. I meant shepard being alive after re entering the atmosphere might not make sense. This is assuming of course that shep was on the citadel and met starkid. Not a dream or hallucination which is what I think your trying to say since obviously he would still be in london them Shepard didn't survive re-entry. He would have gotten spaced. And if he was on the Citadel, it is now blown into a million pieces with him right at the center of the explosion.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 15, 2019 0:20:12 GMT
Since literally no one believes that re-entry happened, why are we talking about it?
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 15, 2019 2:30:47 GMT
I meant shepard being alive after re entering the atmosphere might not make sense. This is assuming of course that shep was on the citadel and met starkid. Not a dream or hallucination which is what I think your trying to say since obviously he would still be in london them Shepard didn't survive re-entry. He would have gotten spaced. And if he was on the Citadel, it is now blown into a million pieces with him right at the center of the explosion. Actually we see the citadel in those slides and it looks fine. Still I wish your version was right and we could see the "real" ending so to speak.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 3:09:26 GMT
Actually we see the citadel in those slides and it looks fine. Still I wish your version was right and we could see the "real" ending so to speak. How did the arms fold up the way they do in the Extended Cut? They are in a different position than before.
There wasn't going to be extra content to see the real ending, you already saw it.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 15, 2019 4:45:14 GMT
I meant shepard being alive after re entering the atmosphere might not make sense. This is assuming of course that shep was on the citadel and met starkid. Not a dream or hallucination which is what I think your trying to say since obviously he would still be in london them Shepard didn't survive re-entry. He would have gotten spaced. And if he was on the Citadel, it is now blown into a million pieces with him right at the center of the explosion. It's a lot less than a million pieces. Most of the structure comes through intact.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 15:26:21 GMT
It's a lot less than a million pieces. Most of the structure comes through intact. It's hyperbole, and you took that literally just like the ending.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 15, 2019 17:19:15 GMT
I generally take hyperbole literally when it's being used to mask a non-argument. Without the hyperbole, what's your point? The Citadel wasn't destroyed, and even the particular part that Shepard was standing in is still there after the explosion. Just another very dangerous moment which Shepard survived because he's the hero. Nothing unusual about that in this series.
And yep, I took the ending literally. Why wouldn't I? I don't have any particular problem with people going another way on this if it makes them feel better about stuff, but doing that doesn't solve any problems I actually have, so there's no appeal in the strategy
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Post by revelationeffect on Aug 28, 2019 11:03:58 GMT
Just about the biggest issue I have with indoctrination theory is that if you don't accept any part of the scenario as real then there is no reason to accept anything the Catalyst is saying, most importantly that the Destroy option actually does what it says it does. There's no reason that Destroy should have Shepard waking up, if it's indoctrination then the most logical conclusion is that the whole scenario is rigged and there is no win condition.
Personally, I don't see any significant reason to distrust the Catalyst. Thinking that it must be a deception of some kind betrays a very human way of thinking about the Reapers and the Catalyst, which to be quite fair is partially Bioware's fault for making Sovereign and Harbinger such hammy motherfuckers. People seem very quick to want to ascribe malice to the Reapers as a result, but honestly I think they're much more interesting as a particularly brutal defense mechanism. Bioware shit the bed a little by not foreshadowing that ahead of time, but that's more the execution failing a bit than the concept itself. People often cite the idea of Reapers purging organics as inherently nonsensical, but think of it from their perspective. These are beings that can exist for billions of years, and they're not dedicated inherently to ensuring the survival of any given kind of organic life. The way they carry it out is fundamentally a compromise, a stop-gap solution to stop organics from being wiped out entirely and being rendered incapable of rising again in the galaxy, valuing the long-term propagation of organics as a whole over the continuing existence of certain species. That's the thing, though, it's clearly a stop-gap, a result of there being no better solution they've found within the parameters of their mission, even if it's a stop-gap that's lasted a long time. So it's not at all unbelievable, that, increasingly seeing the seams in their plan, as organics have clearly found ways to pass things on through generations of species and are likely to eventually defeat them outright, the Catalyst would attempt to make another compromise, one that is less likely to result in their outright destruction than the other options available to them and would at least ensure the possibility that a better solution is arrived at. On that note, I do have issues with how synthesis is treated, but I find it unlikely the Catalyst would feel the need to lie or that the scenario presented is anything other than what it appears.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 11:52:40 GMT
How does saying the rubble was in london not the citadel have him "pushing" IT Because that means that Shepardās body is in London instead of on the Citadel, thus suggesting they never went on the Citadel and that that part wasnāt real. What I don't get is how that expressly pushes indoctrination. That dying or even severely traumatized organics hallucinate is a medical reality. There are several points in the Trilogy where the series could be made to branch off into a dream-based alternative time line and be made to continue towards an entirely new "ending." It doesn't discount the player choices made after that point because Shepard still thought them and what he/she thinks can still have a bearing on how a new ending plays out. To me, it would be the most expedient way of moving ME3 forward.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 28, 2019 15:00:30 GMT
Just about the biggest issue I have with indoctrination theory is that if you don't accept any part of the scenario as real then there is no reason to accept anything the Catalyst is saying, most importantly that the Destroy option actually does what it says it does. There's no reason that Destroy should have Shepard waking up, if it's indoctrination then the most logical conclusion is that the whole scenario is rigged and there is no win condition. Personally, I don't see any significant reason to distrust the Catalyst. Thinking that it must be a deception of some kind betrays a very human way of thinking about the Reapers and the Catalyst, which to be quite fair is partially Bioware's fault for making Sovereign and Harbinger such hammy motherfuckers. People seem very quick to want to ascribe malice to the Reapers as a result, but honestly I think they're much more interesting as a particularly brutal defense mechanism. Bioware shit the bed a little by not foreshadowing that ahead of time, but that's more the execution failing a bit than the concept itself. People often cite the idea of Reapers purging organics as inherently nonsensical, but think of it from their perspective. These are beings that can exist for billions of years, and they're not dedicated inherently to ensuring the survival of any given kind of organic life. The way they carry it out is fundamentally a compromise, a stop-gap solution to stop organics from being wiped out entirely and being rendered incapable of rising again in the galaxy, valuing the long-term propagation of organics as a whole over the continuing existence of certain species. That's the thing, though, it's clearly a stop-gap, a result of there being no better solution they've found within the parameters of their mission, even if it's a stop-gap that's lasted a long time. So it's not at all unbelievable, that, increasingly seeing the seams in their plan, as organics have clearly found ways to pass things on through generations of species and are likely to eventually defeat them outright, the Catalyst would attempt to make another compromise, one that is less likely to result in their outright destruction than the other options available to them and would at least ensure the possibility that a better solution is arrived at. On that note, I do have issues with how synthesis is treated, but I find it unlikely the Catalyst would feel the need to lie or that the scenario presented is anything other than what it appears. Well said... To me it really seems as if the majority prefer a simple villain that they can hate on, rather than thinking deeply about the complex implications if the reapers were actually trying to do something 'benevolent' for lack of a better word. It's the reason they cling so heavily to destroy as a choice. It's a lot easier to hate on the developers than to accept what you yourself have been thinking for three games was wrong. Sure, it could have been presented in a much better way. Changing the dynamic in this way at the last minute was not the optimal way of doing what they were going for. There are a lot of similarities between the Reapers and Saren in that way, but no one wants to see it like that. They've been so accustomed to hating the reapers that suggesting anything different than killing them brings forth such a strong cognitive dissonance that anger is broiling through their veins. If anything, Mass Effect 3's ending says a lot about someone's character... Not trying to offend anyone, but...; Destroy - Stubborn, rebellious, does not like change, pessimistic, slow to adapt, prone to denial, willing to commit violence against others to hold on to certain beliefs, want to see themselves as heroes or saviors. Control - Skeptical, realist, is wary of change but can adapt if it makes sense, willing to take things into their own hands, responsible, can be content with band-aid solutions, want to do the right thing. Synthesis - Gullible, likes fairy tales, adapts quickly without thinking, optimist, willing to take risks and jump into the unknown, wants everyone to be happy. Refuse - Either a) same as destroy with escalated anger or b ) Very doubtful and insecure, willing to let others make the hard choices for them, procrastinators, can live with not getting what they want based on their own actions. MEHEM - Same as synthesis, except the risk and adaptation part.
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Post by SwobyJ on Aug 29, 2019 7:39:07 GMT
"responsible"
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Post by revelationeffect on Aug 29, 2019 22:15:04 GMT
Kinda can't disagree there, although mostly I'm pretty unhappy with how Control is portrayed in the ending slides. I would argue that Control is probably the most reasonable choice, as it neither involves genocide or making a decision to incorporate everyone in the galaxy into a technoorganic pseudo-hivemind, but the idea of Shepard serving long-term as some sort of unaccountable galactic police force is terrifying. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, all that. However, depending on the person, they could absolutely be used in a more-or-less responsible fashion. Probably the best way to handle it would be to use the Reapers to rebuild infrastructure on all the affected worlds, minimizing the damage they caused, disseminate knowledge of certain aspects of reaper technology broadly enough that no organization can use reapertech as leverage for political power plays, see about disentangling and potentially reinstantiating in some fashion the minds of the beings who were assimilated by the Reapers, and then after having made sufficient preparations and restored the galaxy to some measure of stability, fly the entire fleet of Reapers into the nearest star, ensuring Shepard never has the chance to become some sort of quasi-godlike dictatorial monster. Obviously Control is still not an ideal solution, and there are plenty of Shepards who should absolutely not be trusted with that power, but it certainly has the potential for the best outcome.
In particular, the way Synthesis is treated as the best outcome has always prompted a massive eye-roll from me, it's a) making a monumental personal decision for trillions of people without their consent, b ) there's no way that sort of pseudo-hivemind integration wouldn't be traumatic in some way, for fuck's sake it's heavily implied that husks have their consciousnesses restored, and if that isn't bad enough imagine a Brute waking up as a functional system comprised of a turian and krogan mind, or coming back to consciousness to find oneself as one of the heads in the mouth of a Harvester. Fucking nightmare fuel, there. As a whole, it's very poorly thought out and naive, and if it truly is inevitable let it happen organically, so to speak, and ideally with the consent of all involved parties.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 0:09:47 GMT
Kinda can't disagree there, although mostly I'm pretty unhappy with how Control is portrayed in the ending slides. I would argue that Control is probably the most reasonable choice, as it neither involves genocide or making a decision to incorporate everyone in the galaxy into a technoorganic pseudo-hivemind, but the idea of Shepard serving long-term as some sort of unaccountable galactic police force is terrifying. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, all that. However, depending on the person, they could absolutely be used in a more-or-less responsible fashion. Probably the best way to handle it would be to use the Reapers to rebuild infrastructure on all the affected worlds, minimizing the damage they caused, disseminate knowledge of certain aspects of reaper technology broadly enough that no organization can use reapertech as leverage for political power plays, see about disentangling and potentially reinstantiating in some fashion the minds of the beings who were assimilated by the Reapers, and then after having made sufficient preparations and restored the galaxy to some measure of stability, fly the entire fleet of Reapers into the nearest star, ensuring Shepard never has the chance to become some sort of quasi-godlike dictatorial monster. Obviously Control is still not an ideal solution, and there are plenty of Shepards who should absolutely not be trusted with that power, but it certainly has the potential for the best outcome. In particular, the way Synthesis is treated as the best outcome has always prompted a massive eye-roll from me, it's a) making a monumental personal decision for trillions of people without their consent, b ) there's no way that sort of pseudo-hivemind integration wouldn't be traumatic in some way, for fuck's sake it's heavily implied that husks have their consciousnesses restored, and if that isn't bad enough imagine a Brute waking up as a functional system comprised of a turian and krogan mind, or coming back to consciousness to find oneself as one of the heads in the mouth of a Harvester. Fucking nightmare fuel, there. As a whole, it's very poorly thought out and naive, and if it truly is inevitable let it happen organically, so to speak, and ideally with the consent of all involved parties. Just interjecting some food for though here... Organic evolution doesn't ever happen "with consent." Genes mutate, and it just happens, regardless of whether or not you ascribe to Darwin's "survival of the fittest" notions. Additionally, governments make decisions every single day that have ramifications on large numbers of people without their express consent... regardless of whether or not they are an elected government, an appointed government, a monarchy, or a dictatorship. They don't consult the population about every single decision they make. Some of the those decisions have had long-term affects of the DNA of entire populations. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two prime examples The US population did not individually consent to the decision and certainly the Japanese did not consent to the action.
To me, none of the endings represent ideal or "best" solutions. I think the point was really that there was no solution. As Liara said... "What if we spend our last days scurrying around trying to solve a problem we can't fix?" Even Barla Von in ME1 indicated that we were embarking on a game that would 1) progressively get more dangerous and that 2) we couldn't win.
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Post by Garo on Aug 30, 2019 21:58:46 GMT
I get my hopes up every time I see a title like that and then well...
They would need to release a remaster with *tweaked* ending to continue in the Milky Way. But they won't do that because they would get Vietnam flashbacks from 2012 and start crying on the floor or smth.
So most probably AndrAmAda 2 will happen.
I F of course EA won't shut them down after DA4.
Btw is there anyone left in BW from the OG crew? Casey right?
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Post by Garo on Aug 30, 2019 22:04:32 GMT
There is a way around the endings to Mass Effect 3 set it about 1,000 years after the events of ME3 you can have Liara has the last of the original crew to be the link she can die of old age or have her death be what sets the story in motion and write the endings more like ancient legends like Camelot or Robin Hood to the new crew. Why her? What about Grunt? He would still be around, if he survives ME3.
Ohhh you *know* that if BW has a chance to put Liara in ME game they will do that.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 22:35:42 GMT
Why her? What about Grunt? He would still be around, if he survives ME3.
Ohhh you *know* that if BW has a chance to put Liara in ME game they will do that.
If Me, themikefest and others have our way, Many deaths of Liara will happen due to many of us would love to see the rivers of salty tears of the Liaramancers. I do think that Liara becoming either Indoctrinated by the Reapers to become a villain or becoming a villain out of her own free will would produce even more rivers of salty tears.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2019 23:02:06 GMT
Ohhh you *know* that if BW has a chance to put Liara in ME game they will do that.
If Me, themikefest and others have our way, Many deaths of Liara will happen due to many of us would love to see the rivers of salty tears of the Liaramancers. I do think that Liara becoming either Indoctrinated by the Reapers to become a villain or becoming a villain out of her own free will would produce even more rivers of salty tears. Even more reasons why Iām thankful none of you are making the game, and Iām not even a Liaramancer.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 23:20:21 GMT
If Me, themikefest and others have our way, Many deaths of Liara will happen due to many of us would love to see the rivers of salty tears of the Liaramancers. I do think that Liara becoming either Indoctrinated by the Reapers to become a villain or becoming a villain out of her own free will would produce even more rivers of salty tears. Even more reasons why Iām thankful none of you are making the game, and Iām not even a Liaramancer. Hanako, the only reason that I would accept Liara as a villain is that it would be unexpected for everyone in addition to the salty rivers. Also it is the same reason I want a Cerberus Phantom for Player Character because it will be unexpected as hell regardless of era or either galaxy.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 30, 2019 23:25:00 GMT
Ohhh you *know* that if BW has a chance to put Liara in ME game they will do that.
If Me, themikefest and others have our way, Many deaths of Liara will happen due to many of us would love to see the rivers of salty tears of the Liaramancers. I do think that Liara becoming either Indoctrinated by the Reapers to become a villain or becoming a villain out of her own free will would produce even more rivers of salty tears. Nah, I would rather throw her into a pit full of Genestealers. They likely won't kill her, chances are they will infect her with their DNA, turning her into an asari/Genestealer hybrid. And given asari unique way of reproducing, she would likely make more all by herself. Then we send send these hybrids to the asari homeworld. And that's all she wrote for those blue bitches. š
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Post by Phantom on Aug 30, 2019 23:32:13 GMT
If Me, themikefest and others have our way, Many deaths of Liara will happen due to many of us would love to see the rivers of salty tears of the Liaramancers. I do think that Liara becoming either Indoctrinated by the Reapers to become a villain or becoming a villain out of her own free will would produce even more rivers of salty tears. Nah, I would rather throw her into a pit full of Genestealers. They likely won't kill her, chances are they will infect her with their DNA, turning her into an asari/Genestealer hybrid. And given asari unique way of reproducing, she would likely make more all by herself. Then we send send these hybrids to the asari homeworld. And that's all she wrote for those blue bitches. š have you actually consider writing Warhammer 40K professional? Lets face it, that sounds like a standard plot within that universe. Dark gritty and messed up.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 30, 2019 23:35:16 GMT
If Me, themikefest and others have our way, Many deaths of Liara will happen due to many of us would love to see the rivers of salty tears of the Liaramancers. I do think that Liara becoming either Indoctrinated by the Reapers to become a villain or becoming a villain out of her own free will would produce even more rivers of salty tears. Nah, I would rather throw her into a pit full of Genestealers. They likely won't kill her, chances are they will infect her with their DNA, turning her into an asari/Genestealer hybrid. And given asari unique way of reproducing, she would likely make more all by herself. Then we send send these hybrids to the asari homeworld. And that's all she wrote for those blue bitches. š Have you read this post? It's about t'soni working for Cerberus. You might like it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 30, 2019 23:39:47 GMT
Nah, I would rather throw her into a pit full of Genestealers. They likely won't kill her, chances are they will infect her with their DNA, turning her into an asari/Genestealer hybrid. And given asari unique way of reproducing, she would likely make more all by herself. Then we send send these hybrids to the asari homeworld. And that's all she wrote for those blue bitches. š have you actually consider writing Warhammer 40K professional?Ā Lets face it, that sounds like a standard plot within that universe. Dark gritty and messed up.Ā Ā I have toyed with the idea (in fact I even wrote a few chapters on it) but I could never agree on where to take the plot (I did a part where a vanguard fleet invades, but, after some more research, I found even a vanguard Hive Fleet would all but take out 60 to 80% of the ME universe's total fleets before being destroyed. Leaving the main wave little to deal with). So I abandoned it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 30, 2019 23:42:16 GMT
Nah, I would rather throw her into a pit full of Genestealers. They likely won't kill her, chances are they will infect her with their DNA, turning her into an asari/Genestealer hybrid. And given asari unique way of reproducing, she would likely make more all by herself. Then we send send these hybrids to the asari homeworld. And that's all she wrote for those blue bitches. š Have you read this post? It's about t'soni working for Cerberus. You might like it. Aye, but I wanted to add something really messed up of my own. I know, I can a sick bastard when I want to be (I blame classic horror movies like the Thing š).
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