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Post by alanc9 on Mar 18, 2019 15:40:16 GMT
I haven't played Anthem, but Bioware's recent track record in general has been lackluster and indeed the biggest thing against a good DA4. Personally, DA:I worries me more. It was their last well-received game, and I believe their most critically acclaimed, best-selling game ever. I thought it was unabashedly terrible. Now that they've had two crashes in a row, I could see them try to play it safe and replicate their latest success. Remember when DA2 and ME3 came out, and everyone said Bioware had hit rock bottom? Those were the days. That wasn't "everyone." You should probably stop thinking about commercial and critical success, since you don't seem to agree with either critics or buyers. The chance of Bio making more games you like was already very low anyway, so you should stop worrying about it.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 18, 2019 21:58:19 GMT
Hyperbole is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical device! But I'm not thinking about commercial and critical success, at least not in the way you're implying. I only care about them insofar as they impact Bioware's future trajectory. I, selfish being that I am, would much rather they made niche games I enjoy than popular ones I don't care for — though that's a false dichotomy as far as I'm concerned. And believe me, I don't worry much about it either. I hope DA4 will be good, but I don't expect it to be. Chances are I won't even bother with it. I shifted my attention to other developers years ago, but stick round these parts because I'm used to them and like the community much better than elsewhere on the Web. And who knows, miracles do happen.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 18, 2019 22:30:13 GMT
Right now probably the biggest thing working against DA 4 is exactly WHEN they have begun 'full production'. Because on the one hand its been...a while...since DA I but they might not have actually been doing serious work on DA 4 until recently given all the tweets about them moving over to DA 4. That coupled with the idea that EA might want it out sooner rather then later if (and I stress if) Anthem isn't doing well then it could easily mean that it could be 'rushed'.
Of course I'm not sure how big of a worry this should be since pretty much all their recent games have been rushed or gone through some kind of developmental problems and have still come out A OK.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 19, 2019 1:33:31 GMT
I mean, has any game company ever NOT been at rock bottom? It seems like they all are, all the time.
Except Rockstar, I guess, and the Lord, our God, CDProjektRed.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Mar 19, 2019 1:52:09 GMT
I'm pretty much in agreement with the ideas and positions laid out in the OP. I'll just add;
Going for it
The - relatively - good reception the last DA (DAI) had compared with other games from Bioware. MEA probably got a sales boost (or at least, a pre-order boost) because of the success of the Trilogy. Any future ME will have to overcome the reception of MEA (and Anthem, although that might not matter as much). DAI had some issues, of course. For me, it is 2nd in my ranking of DA games, behind Origins. But for many, it is their favourite. So; "things DA4 has going for it"...the perception of DAI and the continued goodwill of the player base.
Up in the air
Just following up on the combat that was mentioned in the OP, there was a tweet where Mark Darrah was asked to "bring back the tactics screen" and his reply - which can probably be found somewhere in the Twitter thread - boiled down to "Sorry, but if we make another DA, we'd likely go further in the opposite direction", meaning - to me - that MEA's style of party control is probably the closest recent example we have of what they're going for.
Going against it
Also following on the "Time" issue mentioned, but from a different tack...as much as I love Dragon Age (my favourite gaming universe by a considerable margin), the Elder Scrolls it ain't. If DA4 releases in 2021 or 22, then it will have been 7 or 8 years since DAI released. That is a long time. Some people will simply have lost interest.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 19, 2019 1:55:24 GMT
I mean, has any game company ever NOT been at rock bottom? It seems like they all are, all the time. Except Rockstar, I guess, and the Lord, our God, CDProjektRed. Give it time. I've heard it crushes men like tumblers, little pieces of glass. Companies aren't safe from it either.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 19, 2019 4:56:38 GMT
- The story won't be written by Cathleen Rootsaert. I know the old saying goes, "It takes a village," but even a village has a chief that sets the ground rules. Cathleen has been the lead writer behind Anthem and Mass Effect: Andromeda. Both stories were criticized for being too campy, and with a villain that is too one-note. Without her at the helm, this could set the story for Dragon Age in a better place. I wonder whether that's really a fair assessment of what she brings - or is able to bring - to the role. By that I mean that I've never really expected it was entirely up to the lead writer to choose tone and approach. I think they often end up having a fair bit of the material they want to present cut for reasons completely out of their control (time, budget, technology) and are told to do other things instead. I'm also under the impression that the producers in particular, along with cinematic designers and other leadership hold great sway over major themes and story direction, and of course the artists also have a great deal of influence there, particularly with respect to key character designs. The VOs and voice director decide how any particular character is realized, just as the level, cutscene, and combat designers determine how every mission actually feels to play through via the pacing of the whole thing. I guess what I'm suggesting is that while the lead writer may be a chief, there's a whole council of chiefs plus higher-level chiefs. Sometimes a chief's job is to organize and make sure the villagers assigned to a specific task complete the tasks as assigned by the supreme chief.
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Post by bizantura on Mar 19, 2019 12:23:40 GMT
For: Bioware once made great story driven games when culture still existed.
Against: Bioware lost the ability to create great story driven games now culture is disappearing.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 20, 2019 6:39:36 GMT
Hyperbole is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical device! But I'm not thinking about commercial and critical success, at least not in the way you're implying. I only care about them insofar as they impact Bioware's future trajectory. I, selfish being that I am, would much rather they made niche games I enjoy than popular ones I don't care for — though that's a false dichotomy as far as I'm concerned. And believe me, I don't worry much about it either. I hope DA4 will be good, but I don't expect it to be. Chances are I won't even bother with it. I shifted my attention to other developers years ago, but stick round these parts because I'm used to them and like the community much better than elsewhere on the Web. And who knows, miracles do happen. Sure. My point was that Bio got away from games you like a while ago. Commercial and critical success are irrelevant because Bio isn't interested in making games for you no matter what happens with their current iteration
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 20, 2019 12:57:09 GMT
Sure. My point was that Bio got away from games you like a while ago. Commercial and critical success are irrelevant because Bio isn't interested in making games for you no matter what happens with their current iteration There are a couple assumptions I'd like you to elaborate on, if you have the time. What sort of game do you think I like, and what sort of game do you think Bioware is interested in making nowadays?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 20, 2019 16:04:55 GMT
Wouldn't it be more useful for you to do the elaborating there?
Put another way, what exactly are you hoping for?
The only hope I see was if your major problem with DAI was its relatively lighter tone. That's more-or-less random with Bio product, and tends to go back and forth; ME:A being a deliberate change from ME3, for instance. It helps to be easily fooled, since DA:O got all of its darkness mileage from the origins. Bio should probably repeat this strategy.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 20, 2019 23:47:07 GMT
Wouldn't it be more useful for you to do the elaborating there? Put another way, what exactly are you hoping for? I asked because you seemed certain that I couldn't possibly enjoy DA4, much more so than even I am, so I wondered from where that came. Look, Anthem was never going to interest me no matter what they did. That's fine; they're very much allowed to make whatever types of game they please. Andromeda I haven't tried, but I never cared that much about it either. Even before we knew anything substantial, it was a hamfisted sequel handed off to the B team. They couldn't have made it a more obvious cash-grab if they had tried. I still maintain the ME franchise should have ended with the trilogy, or at least been given some time to breathe, but I guess in our era of sequels and reboots that's too much to ask for. And as for DA2 and ME3, lots were pissed at those games, but while they were certainly flawed and to some extent disappointing I still managed to get some enjoyment out of them. Not to mention that, for DA2 at least, the parts that sucked the most weren't even Bioware's fault, so I'm inclined to cut them some slack there. No, my beef is very much with Inquisition, and what I want the most from DA4 is to avoid the core design flaws of its predecessor. The whole concept of open world games as popularized by the likes of Bethesda and Ubisoft and even Blizzard relies on making enormous maps so the marketing team can brag about them, then realize you cannot possibly fill them with anything resembling quality content and rely on pointless busywork as the game's basic gameplay loop. It's even worse with story-driven games like Inquisition, which suffers tremendously because of it. And yes, I know the chances of DA4 not being open world are pretty much nil, hence my pessimism, but I also know that's not necessarily a deal-breaker, hence my little spark of hope. I know that it's a loaded comparison and that a lot of BS gets spouted about it, but there is a reason why Inquisition kind of ended up forgotten in the shade of Wild Hunt, deeply flawed as that other game is. They're both the third, open world entry in a series of story-driven fantasy RPGs, but the latter combined the "story-driven" part with "open world" much more successfully. There are exactly two things I think an open-world DA4 has to learn from Wild Hunt, which in no way detract from Bioware's traditional approach and in fact would enhance it: first, make sure to put at least some effort into the bulk of the side content, so that it features its own characters, plots, and themes; second, have most or all of the main storyline take place in the open world rather than separate instances. The writers haven't lost it. The war table missions sound as fun as anything from the previous games, if not more so, but we're stuck fetching blankets, fetching druffalos, fetching wedding rings, fetching mosaics, fetching elfroot, etc., while major budding subplots are smothered in the cradle with so little space to breathe. If they're allowed to make a decent game, I think they can do it. Problem is, they need not just EA to let them do their thing, but their own team of directors, who might decide to chase whatever trend is hot right now and tack on a half-assed version of the Bioware experience to it, almost out of obligation. Rant over.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2019 18:29:18 GMT
The writers haven't lost it. The war table missions sound as fun as anything from the previous games, if not more so, but we're stuck fetching blankets, fetching druffalos, fetching wedding rings, fetching mosaics, fetching elfroot, etc., while major budding subplots are smothered in the cradle with so little space to breathe. If they're allowed to make a decent game, I think they can do it. Problem is, they need not just EA to let them do their thing, but their own team of directors, who might decide to chase whatever trend is hot right now and tack on a half-assed version of the Bioware experience to it, almost out of obligation. Rant over. Making this work, though, would require massive cuts to the size of the game, unless we're talking about a fantasy budget. Smaller isn't a terrible idea -- I think ME:A should have had one or two less planets, and DAI maybe three fewer maps. Pitting war table missions against the fetch quests is conceptually unsound, though. Making up a quest outline isn't a significant expense. I'm coming around to the idea that the WT, and ME3's similar galaxy map missions, were bad ideas. Providing the illusion of better content than what you can actually provide is counterproductive.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 29, 2019 22:04:55 GMT
Providing the illusion of better content than what you can actually provide is counterproductive. Definitely agree with this. When the war table missions sound way more interesting than what I am doing in game, there is definitely something wrong. Smaller isn't a terrible idea -- I think ME:A should have had one or two less planets, and DAI maybe three fewer maps. I certainly felt there was a sense of quantity over quality with some of those maps. The Hissing Wastes immediately springs to mind. The central dwarf story was reasonably interesting but could have been dealt with a map a fraction of the size. The same was true of some of the other maps as well. I never quite got the point of the Forbidden Oasis and the final part of the shard doors quest was underwhelming because by the time you had all the shards you were too powerful for the end boss, yet I assume it has some significance as it was recorded in the Keep. I'd be interested to know just how much resources were expended on the whole occulara/shards quest as I would happily have traded that for greater insights into the past of Corypheus than we were provided with in game.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 30, 2019 0:24:44 GMT
Making this work, though, would require massive cuts to the size of the game, unless we're talking about a fantasy budget. Smaller isn't a terrible idea -- I think ME:A should have had one or two less planets, and DAI maybe three fewer maps. Pitting war table missions against the fetch quests is conceptually unsound, though. Making up a quest outline isn't a significant expense. I'm coming around to the idea that the WT, and ME3's similar galaxy map missions, were bad ideas. Providing the illusion of better content than what you can actually provide is counterproductive. Well, I made the point in my previous post that I think that the whole open world concept is ill-considered from the get-go, at least as far as story-driven RPGs are concerned. I'm all for future games being smaller. In fact, if I could tell Bioware just the one thing about what I want out of their future games, is to make sure the size of the world is proportional to the amount of quality content they can afford to put in it. Also, there's a whole ocean of possibility between "lavish quest design only possible in text adventures or otherwise resourceful indie games" and "incredibly low-effort busywork." And yes, previous Bioware games had filler as well, but here's the thing: I make it a policy to skip everything in the ME trilogy that is not 1. the main quest, 2. companion-related, 3. a hub quest. As a result, I thoroughly enjoy the games and regularly forget N7 missions are even a thing. Inquisition's problems are far from inevitable, as plenty other games prove.
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Post by yogsothoth on Mar 30, 2019 0:49:53 GMT
For the plot, I'm worried that they've cornered themselves with Solas being too powerful, and that they're going to end up using some Deus ex MacGuffin that has some convenient anti-Ancient Elvhen God-Mage power a la the Reapers/Crucible.
I would hope that the people that Solas doesn't know would mean people that could actually go toe-to-toe with him, at least in the sense that they have some means of preventing insta-death through some ability/ingenuity that's relevant to who they are as a character (Hedge/Blood/Blight magic, Spirit possession, Titan connection, etc). Given Harding's popularity as the returning companion among the fanbase and also being well-liked among the writers, that hope appears to be DOA.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 30, 2019 0:51:20 GMT
For the plot, I'm worried that they've cornered themselves with Solas being too powerful, and that they're going to end up using some Deus ex MacGuffin that has some convenient anti-Ancient Elvhen God-Mage power a la the Reapers/Crucible. You mean like they already did for Origins and Inquisition.
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Post by yogsothoth on Mar 30, 2019 0:55:30 GMT
For the plot, I'm worried that they've cornered themselves with Solas being too powerful, and that they're going to end up using some Deus ex MacGuffin that has some convenient anti-Ancient Elvhen God-Mage power a la the Reapers/Crucible. You mean like they already did for Origins and Inquisition. Yes. Origins was more forgivable, but the dragon dying somehow meant Corypheus could be killed was handled terribly.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 30, 2019 15:19:55 GMT
For the plot, I'm worried that they've cornered themselves with Solas being too powerful, and that they're going to end up using some Deus ex MacGuffin that has some convenient anti-Ancient Elvhen God-Mage power a la the Reapers/Crucible. You mean like they already did for Origins and Inquisition. Truth to be told, the archdemons aren’t actually that powerful, and killing one, although surely a feat, isn’t something that high in degree of difficulty (not that much more then killing an high dragon). If I recall, there are codex entries already in Origins mentioning how the first one, Dumat, was killed numerous times, always transferring to the nearest darkspawn, until the Wardens’ ‘creation’. I’d say the Dark Ritual in DAO fits the role of a Deus ex Macguffin, as it avoids the MC’s sacrifice. The Wardens’ ability isn’t even something specialty to the MC, but something all Wardens possess. The archdemons itself aren’t that strong, howewer. Solas is howewer (as the Evanuris), seemingly on another level, so requiring a special ability or power would likely be tied on a Chosen One\Deus ex Machina situation, which is completely different then what we had in DAO.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 30, 2019 19:28:39 GMT
You mean like they already did for Origins and Inquisition. Yes. Origins was more forgivable, but the dragon dying somehow meant Corypheus could be killed was handled terribly. The Soul Jar is a pretty common fantasy trope, though.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 30, 2019 19:52:29 GMT
You mean like they already did for Origins and Inquisition. Truth to be told, the archdemons aren’t actually that powerful, and killing one, although surely a feat, isn’t something that high in degree of difficulty (not that much more then killing an high dragon). If I recall, there are codex entries already in Origins mentioning how the first one, Dumat, was killed numerous times, always transferring to the nearest darkspawn, until the Wardens’ ‘creation’. I’d say the Dark Ritual in DAO fits the role of a Deus ex Macguffin, as it avoids the MC’s sacrifice. The Wardens’ ability isn’t even something specialty to the MC, but something all Wardens possess. The archdemons itself aren’t that strong, howewer. Agreed, although Warden status is close to a Deus Ex Macguffin in practice, because there are only two or three Wardens left alive in Ferelden by the final battle.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 30, 2019 20:04:54 GMT
Truth to be told, the archdemons aren’t actually that powerful, and killing one, although surely a feat, isn’t something that high in degree of difficulty (not that much more then killing an high dragon). If I recall, there are codex entries already in Origins mentioning how the first one, Dumat, was killed numerous times, always transferring to the nearest darkspawn, until the Wardens’ ‘creation’. I’d say the Dark Ritual in DAO fits the role of a Deus ex Macguffin, as it avoids the MC’s sacrifice. The Wardens’ ability isn’t even something specialty to the MC, but something all Wardens possess. The archdemons itself aren’t that strong, howewer. Agreed, although Warden status is close to a Deus Ex Macguffin in practice, because there are only two or three Wardens left alive in Ferelden by the final battle. That’s true, but that’s more about how the plot is written and the fact that the PC/party are supposed to have an important/crucial role (given that Riordan dies for the same reason). After all, the whole premise behind the Warden, from the very start of the game, is that they’re only ones able to stop the Blight.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 30, 2019 22:34:09 GMT
I'm a bit mystified. How's the Warden a McGuffin? The point of a McGuffin is that it could be replaced with anything else and it wouldn't make a difference; it's just an arbitrary plot device. I don't see how they are a Deus ex Machina either. Riordan's revelation is not only set up throughout the game, but its purpose isn't even to get the heroes out of trouble. Quite the opposite. Only a warden being able to kill the archdemon is not good for the Warden.
The Dark Ritual is a complete cop-out, on that I do agree. Even more so because there is no good reason not to go for it. The game goes so quickly from "either you or your Warden companion will have to die" to "or you could just have sex with the hot witch," with no downsides whatsoever to the latter option.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 30, 2019 23:07:00 GMT
I'm a bit mystified. How's the Warden a McGuffin? The point of a McGuffin is that it could be replaced with anything else and it wouldn't make a difference; it's just an arbitrary plot device. I don't see how they are a Deus ex Machina either. Riordan's revelation is not only set up throughout the game, but its purpose isn't even to get the heroes out of trouble. Quite the opposite. Only a warden being able to kill the archdemon is not good for the Warden. The Dark Ritual is a complete cop-out, on that I do agree. Even more so because there is no good reason not to go for it. The game goes so quickly from "either you or your Warden companion will have to die" to "or you could just have sex with the hot witch," with no downsides whatsoever to the latter option. Agreed, hence why I said as well that the DR fits the scheme more so then the Wardens’ role. On the DR, though, while your point makes sense overall, it also depends on the players’ feeling on the event or on Morrigan, or how they’re roleplaying their character. They might not trust Morrigan on the issue, or being female/gay. Granted, there’s Alistair or Loghain for those cases (although for the former romanced it brings an interesting dilemma to the table), but there’s still some cases why one might roleplay a character that won’t go through it. Although it’s still a too easy way to get away from the Wardens’ sacrifice to end a Blight.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 30, 2019 23:23:45 GMT
Agreed, hence why I said as well that the DR fits the scheme more so then the Wardens’ role. On the DR, though, while your point makes sense overall, it also depends on the players’ feeling on the event or on Morrigan, or how they’re roleplaying their character. They might not trust Morrigan on the issue, or being female/gay. Granted, there’s Alistair or Loghain for those cases (although for the former romanced it brings an interesting dilemma to the table), but there’s still some cases why one might roleplay a character that won’t go through it. Although it’s still a too easy way to get away from the Wardens’ sacrifice to end a Blight. I can think of a few legitimate roleplaying reasons to skip the DR, and in fact my first Warden didn't go for it. But the best RPG choices are often the ones that have the potential to challenge both the character and the player, to some extent. On a personal level, I don't see it as a difficult choice at all, and any Warden that rejects Morrigan strikes me as a bit of an idiot. Don't trust Morrigan? Why? If you've payed attention to her it's pretty obvious that, while she is selfish and callous, she isn't evil and has no interest in power over others. And while sex with Morrigan could be an unpleasant prospect for some, because of lack of attraction or a monogamous relationship with someone else, that objection strikes me as a bit precious when the alternatives are to die or let someone else die for you. If Alistair was the one you had to bang, I'd still find it an easy choice. I think it would have been more interesting if the DR was not there or, alternatively, if it had a concrete cost that would make it less appealing an alternative.
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