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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 23:09:33 GMT
And the Illusive Man represents the control choice. Yup. Green saren, blue illusive man, red Anderson. That being said I don’t think any are supposed to represent the right or wrong choice. They are all supposed to represent people who were trying to save the galaxy but maybe took a wrong turn or went down the wrong part or just came up short so couldn’t do it right in the end. Their end might be the right choice but only Shepard messiah can get it done in the correct way in the end. Saren would be a galaxy destroyer with the turians being the next collectors. Illusive man would just be the next harbringer but still under the thumb of star brat. Anderson just couldn’t make it to the end and make the hard choices that are needed. Shepard in the Saren route saves the entire galaxy not just one race and it’s a more complete synthesis not collectors 2.0 Shepard as illusive man is strong enough to take control over the wishes of starbrat. Shepard as Anderson has what it takes to pull the trigger to do what he thinks is right. Maybe they weren't meant too but I think the fact they are the ones who were representing them says alot about which is right and wrong.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 23:09:34 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible. No if you have enough ems to choose red Shepard can do it.
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 22, 2019 23:10:23 GMT
I've never seen anything to indicate the catalyst was anything other than a info dump like vigil in ME1, so no it's not lying.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 23:15:54 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible. I believe the term "power corrupts" speaks volumes. And whoever controls the reapers has more power then anyone else could imagine. You not only control the people who are currently alive but also the people who will be born a million generations from now. Also the reapers came to their current "genocide" solution because of what is eesentially a mistake in reasoning since the catalyst doesn't see people as "people" but just numbers. If it kills trillions of them but starkid knows more will come up so it is just like writing numbers on a board and erasing them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 23:16:08 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible. No if you have enough ems to choose red Shepard can do it. Harbinger would assume direct control of you before that ever happened.
Plus, the game files say you don't control the Reapers, but rather become a Reaper.
Destroy:
Synthesis:
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 23:16:52 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible. No if you have enough ems to choose red Shepard can do it. I thought you could always choose control and destroy no matter how low your ems was?
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Post by monk on Mar 22, 2019 23:20:12 GMT
Whether you believe the Starchild was lying or misinformed, we know one thing for a fact; ALL of their answers can not be trusted.
1. We can't trust their answers because the entire premise of their original problem was that the "Created will always destroy the Creator", and that must be stopped. 2. But we know this is not "always" true, Geth and Quarian have shown this in this Cycle. Therefore the logic in that "Created will always destroy the Creator" is invalid. And anything stemming from that problem to which solutions were made for, are likely invalid as well. Not always, but very likely true. Case by case analysis required. 3. Bioware never made it available as a counter point, but thinking on that "problem". So it (the Starchild) made the Reapers (The Created), so at what point will "they" (The Reapers; The Created) go and Destroy the Creator (Starchild)? But according to the Starchild, its control over them is absolute. This is not logical, if the Starchild can create something that will not Destroy them back in return (over billions of years, far longer than any other Synthetic/Organic war), clearly the logic of certainty in the original problem can not be taken as valid. And yet it continues as though this is the case. 4. The Starchild not knowing about the Crucible before, now suddenly having a third option to Synthesis the entire Galaxy to restore harmony is very last moment. How can anyone know what outcome will come from something you didn't know existed about 15 minutes ago? 5. Incidentally, as mentioned, Synthesis won't stop conflict unless there is a mass Indoctrination going on that prevents Synthesis entities from having an issue from one another. Unless all individual parts and components are lost. There is no Krogan, Human or Turian, but Synthesis entities. In short, killing everything off, but leaving only the "whole" remaining. Nothing more than a husk of the Race they represent; a living memorial. 6. The issue of the Starchild not lying about the outcomes is only possible to us players who can view the outcome. But this does not invalidate the point that the logic of the Starchild was not in question, and therefore the outcome may still only be a "best guess" of what will happen had the choices been taken. 7. Finally, assuming the Starchild is 100% correct in everything they have said. The Starchild is therefore, for lack of a better word; God. Except prior to the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Synthesis solution was not available. It also never considered allowing it to be made, always trying to scrub its existence instead. Since it did not know for certain, it also logical to assume it is not 100% certain that this Synthesis will be the actual solution. Therefore, accepting their Synthesis is foolhardy. You don't fall from scams from a shoddy scammer, but a good one. But the Starchild has so many flaws littered around every one of the statements and arguments made, that you can see why no one will accept their proposal, and with good reason.
My suggestion would be the following, it's cheesy as heck, but it gives a way out for players to continue in the Milkyway Galaxy AND the Andromeda Galaxy:
The ending of the game is overwritten by the Devs, ALL the endings in ME3 are void. The Starchild has been corrupted a long time ago, and is in fact preserving their own existence through indirect truths told and through manipulation of the races to help find a permanent way for the Starchild to remain "alive" forever more by preventing the Reapers from revolting, and possibly instilling permanent control. The ending is now: A team from Leviathan makes it onto the station, and before Shepard can make a choice, the artifact they carried with them activates and causes the Starchild to fizzle and dissappear from a confrontation from Leviathan. The Citadel begins to send randomised orders and FTL signals around the Galaxy to every Reaper. Many go Dark from the response, but some are shot far into the reaches of Trans-Galactic space, some towards Triangulum, some towards Andromeda... Some Reapers however, "Awaken"...
Everything remains the same. The Milky-Way has averted one disaster, but has it caused more issues down the line? Past Races can be explored, Andromeda gets Reapers, what will that do with the Jardaan and their belief of Reincarnation? What will that do with the Remnant and its creators? Or the Kett and their imperative?
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Post by themikefest on Mar 22, 2019 23:34:26 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible. No if you have enough ems to choose red Shepard can do it. Doesn't matter the ems, red will always be available as a choice unless the base is saved and ems is below 1750, which means only control will be available
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 23:49:21 GMT
Thanks. I thought you needed a end for it. Been a while.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 23:50:42 GMT
No if you have enough ems to choose red Shepard can do it. Harbinger would assume direct control of you before that ever happened.
Plus, the game files say you don't control the Reapers, but rather become a Reaper.
Destroy:
Synthesis: You turn into boss reaper and control them. That’s why it’s called control.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 22, 2019 23:52:58 GMT
And the Illusive Man represents the control choice. So TIM represents control which is not a promising sign since he willing put reaper tech in his mind and he commited so many horrifying acts that it doesn't speak well of him.
Synthesis is represented by saren who was vicious and brutal even before soverign got a hold of him so again not a good sign.
I think anderson represented destroy and while he wasn't perfect he always tried to do the right thing. And he genuinely cared about others.
Huh I can't seem to figure out which one is the best choice. The choice the violent anti human made,the choice the narccistic anti alien mad man made,or the choice the loyal general who cared about others and tried to so what was right and helped our character throughout the whole series.....yep this is a very hard choice. There isn't one. They all suck diseased moose wang.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 22, 2019 23:55:20 GMT
Harbinger would assume direct control of you before that ever happened.
Plus, the game files say you don't control the Reapers, but rather become a Reaper.
Destroy:
Synthesis: You turn into boss reaper and control them. That’s why it’s called control. "Now she does feast, as she's become the beast"
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 23:59:05 GMT
You turn into boss reaper and control them. That’s why it’s called control. "Now she does feast, as she's become the beast" Oh where does that come from. It sounds so familiar
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 0:00:18 GMT
So TIM represents control which is not a promising sign since he willing put reaper tech in his mind and he commited so many horrifying acts that it doesn't speak well of him.
Synthesis is represented by saren who was vicious and brutal even before soverign got a hold of him so again not a good sign.
I think anderson represented destroy and while he wasn't perfect he always tried to do the right thing. And he genuinely cared about others.
Huh I can't seem to figure out which one is the best choice. The choice the violent anti human made,the choice the narccistic anti alien mad man made,or the choice the loyal general who cared about others and tried to so what was right and helped our character throughout the whole series.....yep this is a very hard choice. There isn't one. They all suck diseased moose wang. Really? you can't tell that destroy is the best of the crappy choices?
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 0:06:07 GMT
Whether you believe the Starchild was lying or misinformed, we know one thing for a fact; ALL of their answers can not be trusted. 1. We can't trust their answers because the entire premise of their original problem was that the "Created will always destroy the Creator", and that must be stopped. 2. But we know this is not "always" true, Geth and Quarian have shown this in this Cycle. Therefore the logic in that "Created will always destroy the Creator" is invalid. And anything stemming from that problem to which solutions were made for, are likely invalid as well. Not always, but very likely true. Case by case analysis required. 3. Bioware never made it available as a counter point, but thinking on that "problem". So it (the Starchild) made the Reapers (The Created), so at what point will "they" (The Reapers; The Created) go and Destroy the Creator (Starchild)? But according to the Starchild, its control over them is absolute. This is not logical, if the Starchild can create something that will not Destroy them back in return (over billions of years, far longer than any other Synthetic/Organic war), clearly the logic of certainty in the original problem can not be taken as valid. And yet it continues as though this is the case. 4. The Starchild not knowing about the Crucible before, now suddenly having a third option to Synthesis the entire Galaxy to restore harmony is very last moment. How can anyone know what outcome will come from something you didn't know existed about 15 minutes ago? 5. Incidentally, as mentioned, Synthesis won't stop conflict unless there is a mass Indoctrination going on that prevents Synthesis entities from having an issue from one another. Unless all individual parts and components are lost. There is no Krogan, Human or Turian, but Synthesis entities. In short, killing everything off, but leaving only the "whole" remaining. Nothing more than a husk of the Race they represent; a living memorial. 6. The issue of the Starchild not lying about the outcomes is only possible to us players who can view the outcome. But this does not invalidate the point that the logic of the Starchild was not in question, and therefore the outcome may still only be a "best guess" of what will happen had the choices been taken. 7. Finally, assuming the Starchild is 100% correct in everything they have said. The Starchild is therefore, for lack of a better word; God. Except prior to the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Synthesis solution was not available. It also never considered allowing it to be made, always trying to scrub its existence instead. Since it did not know for certain, it also logical to assume it is not 100% certain that this Synthesis will be the actual solution. Therefore, accepting their Synthesis is foolhardy. You don't fall from scams from a shoddy scammer, but a good one. But the Starchild has so many flaws littered around every one of the statements and arguments made, that you can see why no one will accept their proposal, and with good reason. My suggestion would be the following, it's cheesy as heck, but it gives a way out for players to continue in the Milkyway Galaxy AND the Andromeda Galaxy: The ending of the game is overwritten by the Devs, ALL the endings in ME3 are void. The Starchild has been corrupted a long time ago, and is in fact preserving their own existence through indirect truths told and through manipulation of the races to help find a permanent way for the Starchild to remain "alive" forever more by preventing the Reapers from revolting, and possibly instilling permanent control. The ending is now: A team from Leviathan makes it onto the station, and before Shepard can make a choice, the artifact they carried with them activates and causes the Starchild to fizzle and dissappear from a confrontation from Leviathan. The Citadel begins to send randomised orders and FTL signals around the Galaxy to every Reaper. Many go Dark from the response, but some are shot far into the reaches of Trans-Galactic space, some towards Triangulum, some towards Andromeda... Some Reapers however, "Awaken"... Everything remains the same. The Milky-Way has averted one disaster, but has it caused more issues down the line? Past Races can be explored, Andromeda gets Reapers, what will that do with the Jardaan and their belief of Reincarnation? What will that do with the Remnant and its creators? Or the Kett and their imperative? This sounds cool actually. However there is one problem. I might be wrong since I haven't played ME3 for a while (am currently playing ME2 after getting all my saves ready for ME2 then after I get all the ME2 playthroughs ready I will play ME3 again. since I lost my old save games I had to repeat them all.) but didn't the levithans create the reapers not the starkid.
I agree that the synthetics won't always rebel against their creators or at least they won't destroy their creators.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 23, 2019 0:07:14 GMT
"Now she does feast, as she's become the beast" Oh where does that come from. It sounds so familiar Dragon Age Origins
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 0:10:59 GMT
Oh where does that come from. It sounds so familiar Dragon Age Origins Oh that was where it was from. I haven't played DAO in so long but I could still hear the voice that said that. I loved that line because it was just so brutal.
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Post by monk on Mar 23, 2019 0:14:24 GMT
This sounds cool actually. However there is one problem. I might be wrong since I haven't played ME3 for a while (am currently playing ME2 after getting all my saves ready for ME2 then after I get all the ME2 playthroughs ready I will play ME3 again. since I lost my old save games I had to repeat them all.) but didn't the levithans create the reapers not the starkid.
I agree that the synthetics won't always rebel against their creators or at least they won't destroy their creators.
The Leviathans created the AI that which we know as the Starchild/Starkid. The Starchild after analysis of the problem posed by the Leviathans, to keep the Organics alive - since a dead race doesn't give tribute, and all these silly Organic races are creating Synthetics that end up killing them, dreamt up a solution where it would prevent such conflict by turning them into Reapers, it's tool for making this outcome possible. It chose the form of the Leviathans to make the First Reaper; Harbinger.
In any event, if you look at that again, where if the Starchild truly knew everything, then the Reapers WOULD be the solution, and not that it continues to look for a solution. And then come up with a last minute Synthesis solution that comes out of nowhere, if it knew what to do already.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 0:27:58 GMT
This sounds cool actually. However there is one problem. I might be wrong since I haven't played ME3 for a while (am currently playing ME2 after getting all my saves ready for ME2 then after I get all the ME2 playthroughs ready I will play ME3 again. since I lost my old save games I had to repeat them all.) but didn't the levithans create the reapers not the starkid.
I agree that the synthetics won't always rebel against their creators or at least they won't destroy their creators.
The Leviathans created the AI that which we know as the Starchild/Starkid. The Starchild after analysis of the problem posed by the Leviathans, to keep the Organics alive - since a dead race doesn't give tribute, and all these silly Organic races are creating Synthetics that end up killing them, dreamt up a solution where it would prevent such conflict by turning them into Reapers, it's tool for making this outcome possible. It chose the form of the Leviathans to make the First Reaper; Harbinger.
In any event, if you look at that again, where if the Starchild truly knew everything, then the Reapers WOULD be the solution, and not that it continues to look for a solution. And then come up with a last minute Synthesis solution that comes out of nowhere, if it knew what to do already.
Oh that's right they created star kid
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Post by Iakus on Mar 23, 2019 0:47:10 GMT
There isn't one. They all suck diseased moose wang. Really? you can't tell that destroy is the best of the crappy choices? The best crap is still crap.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2019 0:59:27 GMT
There isn't one. They all suck diseased moose wang. Really? you can't tell that destroy is the best of the crappy choices? It’s only the best for some. For others it is the worst.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 1:08:50 GMT
Bioware didn't include an easy win choice.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 23, 2019 1:14:36 GMT
There is an easy win. Destroy the reapers. Can't be anymore easier than that. excellent
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 1:23:19 GMT
There is an easy win. Destroy the reapers. Can't be anymore easier than that. excellent EXCELLENT? we are talking about the ME3 endings here right. I do think that destroy is by far the best choice since that is what we have been trying to do for three games
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 1:23:59 GMT
Really? you can't tell that destroy is the best of the crappy choices? It’s only the best for some. For others it is the worst. Well to be fair everyone has to agree that refuse is the worst.
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