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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 1:24:12 GMT
Yeah, but some people don't pick it, because the Starchild claims all synthetics will be destroyed, including Shepard, because he is partly synthetic.
These people see destroy as genocide, and thus a bad choice.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 1:25:51 GMT
This sounds cool actually. However there is one problem. I might be wrong since I haven't played ME3 for a while (am currently playing ME2 after getting all my saves ready for ME2 then after I get all the ME2 playthroughs ready I will play ME3 again. since I lost my old save games I had to repeat them all.) but didn't the levithans create the reapers not the starkid.
I agree that the synthetics won't always rebel against their creators or at least they won't destroy their creators.
The Leviathans created the AI that which we know as the Starchild/Starkid. The Starchild after analysis of the problem posed by the Leviathans, to keep the Organics alive - since a dead race doesn't give tribute, and all these silly Organic races are creating Synthetics that end up killing them, dreamt up a solution where it would prevent such conflict by turning them into Reapers, it's tool for making this outcome possible. It chose the form of the Leviathans to make the First Reaper; Harbinger.
In any event, if you look at that again, where if the Starchild truly knew everything, then the Reapers WOULD be the solution, and not that it continues to look for a solution. And then come up with a last minute Synthesis solution that comes out of nowhere, if it knew what to do already.
You know the irony here is that the levitheans created a synthetic to solve the problem of the synthetics rebelling against their creators and killing them.....there is no way this can backfire in a horribly ironic way.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 1:26:23 GMT
Yeah, but some people don't pick it, because the Starchild claims all synthetics will be destroyed, including Shepard, because he is partly synthetic.
These people see it as destroy as genocide, and thus a bad choice.
But shepard doesn't die. So if he doesn't then why do the geth and edi?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 1:27:50 GMT
But shepard doesn't die. So if he doesn't then why do the geth and edi? Do you actually see them die? I didn't.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 23, 2019 1:32:21 GMT
Yeah, but some people don't pick it, because the Starchild claims all synthetics will be destroyed, including Shepard, because he is partly synthetic.
These people see it as destroy as genocide, and thus a bad choice.
But shepard doesn't die. So if he doesn't then why do the geth and edi? Because they are synthetic. Shepard at most has some synthetic parts. Even that is questionable as it’s synthetic as in not organic. But it’s not synthetic as in AI. The geth and Edi are full on synthetic and toast. Retarded space magic but so be it.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 23, 2019 1:36:17 GMT
There is an easy win. Destroy the reapers. Can't be anymore easier than that. excellent EXCELLENT? we are talking about the ME3 endings here right. I do think that destroy is by far the best choice since that is what we have been trying to do for three games Yes, excellent. It's excellent to see the reapers fall over destroyed.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 23, 2019 4:13:05 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible. It didn't. It said TIM couldn't control them because he was already indoctrinated.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 23, 2019 4:19:43 GMT
I've never seen anything to indicate the catalyst was anything other than a info dump like vigil in ME1, so no it's not lying. The Catalyst had a program that said "X is true, solve for X" (Or something. Math equations aren't my strong suit.) If the Leviathan programmed the Catalyst to believe that there would always be conflict between organics and synthetics - more specifically, that synthetics would wipe out their creators - then it's going to solve for that problem. However, if the initial premise is wrong, which it is, then it's trying to solve the wrong problem. Hence, we get Reapers instead of something like, I don't know, the Three Laws of Robotics. It may not be necessary, since at least some instances where the synthetics rebelled were due to Reaper interference. If you just want to take the precautions, have the Catalyst send minions around the galaxy to offer a solution to any potential problem with AI. Given that IRL there's concern over real AI (not the stuff we have that's "extra dumb" VI), this isn't even that far-fetched. Except I don't think we're imagining they'll turn on us so much as out-compete us.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 23, 2019 4:23:52 GMT
You know the irony here is that the levitheans created a synthetic to solve the problem of the synthetics rebelling against their creators and killing them.....there is no way this can backfire in a horribly ironic way. Oh, we know. The Leviathan even acknowledge it to Shepard. It was an ego thing. They'd been on total control for so long (except for those pesky synthetics that they couldn't control...) that they assumed no AI could turn against them. They were wrong. They, like the thing they created, caused a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 23, 2019 11:26:07 GMT
Leviathan suffered from politician syndrome, the big head, believing everything it says and does is right. As Leviathan was on the beach soaking up some rays, it sees a giant blender coming towards it throwing its friends in it. Its at that moment it realizes they should have put some restrictions on the thing it created.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 11:47:48 GMT
Whether you believe the Starchild was lying or misinformed, we know one thing for a fact; ALL of their answers can not be trusted. 1. We can't trust their answers because the entire premise of their original problem was that the "Created will always destroy the Creator", and that must be stopped. 2. But we know this is not "always" true, Geth and Quarian have shown this in this Cycle. Therefore the logic in that "Created will always destroy the Creator" is invalid. And anything stemming from that problem to which solutions were made for, are likely invalid as well. Not always, but very likely true. Case by case analysis required. 3. Bioware never made it available as a counter point, but thinking on that "problem". So it (the Starchild) made the Reapers (The Created), so at what point will "they" (The Reapers; The Created) go and Destroy the Creator (Starchild)? But according to the Starchild, its control over them is absolute. This is not logical, if the Starchild can create something that will not Destroy them back in return (over billions of years, far longer than any other Synthetic/Organic war), clearly the logic of certainty in the original problem can not be taken as valid. And yet it continues as though this is the case. 4. The Starchild not knowing about the Crucible before, now suddenly having a third option to Synthesis the entire Galaxy to restore harmony is very last moment. How can anyone know what outcome will come from something you didn't know existed about 15 minutes ago? 5. Incidentally, as mentioned, Synthesis won't stop conflict unless there is a mass Indoctrination going on that prevents Synthesis entities from having an issue from one another. Unless all individual parts and components are lost. There is no Krogan, Human or Turian, but Synthesis entities. In short, killing everything off, but leaving only the "whole" remaining. Nothing more than a husk of the Race they represent; a living memorial. 6. The issue of the Starchild not lying about the outcomes is only possible to us players who can view the outcome. But this does not invalidate the point that the logic of the Starchild was not in question, and therefore the outcome may still only be a "best guess" of what will happen had the choices been taken. 7. Finally, assuming the Starchild is 100% correct in everything they have said. The Starchild is therefore, for lack of a better word; God. Except prior to the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Synthesis solution was not available. It also never considered allowing it to be made, always trying to scrub its existence instead. Since it did not know for certain, it also logical to assume it is not 100% certain that this Synthesis will be the actual solution. Therefore, accepting their Synthesis is foolhardy. You don't fall from scams from a shoddy scammer, but a good one. But the Starchild has so many flaws littered around every one of the statements and arguments made, that you can see why no one will accept their proposal, and with good reason. My suggestion would be the following, it's cheesy as heck, but it gives a way out for players to continue in the Milkyway Galaxy AND the Andromeda Galaxy: The ending of the game is overwritten by the Devs, ALL the endings in ME3 are void. The Starchild has been corrupted a long time ago, and is in fact preserving their own existence through indirect truths told and through manipulation of the races to help find a permanent way for the Starchild to remain "alive" forever more by preventing the Reapers from revolting, and possibly instilling permanent control. The ending is now: A team from Leviathan makes it onto the station, and before Shepard can make a choice, the artifact they carried with them activates and causes the Starchild to fizzle and dissappear from a confrontation from Leviathan. The Citadel begins to send randomised orders and FTL signals around the Galaxy to every Reaper. Many go Dark from the response, but some are shot far into the reaches of Trans-Galactic space, some towards Triangulum, some towards Andromeda... Some Reapers however, "Awaken"... Everything remains the same. The Milky-Way has averted one disaster, but has it caused more issues down the line? Past Races can be explored, Andromeda gets Reapers, what will that do with the Jardaan and their belief of Reincarnation? What will that do with the Remnant and its creators? Or the Kett and their imperative? Items 4 and 5 are not necessarily true. Understanding (represented by synthesis) does mitigate conflict without parties being "indoctrinated." It is, in fact, how conflicts are resolved peacefully without war (utter destruction of one party) or slavery (total control over one party). Both control and destroy create winners and losers to a conflict. Understanding creates partnerships going forward that retain their individuality AND an equality. The flaw is that "total understanding" is something that never does happen... and that's probably a good thing. Some level of conflict drives discussion and is how people problem solve. The Catalyst did know about synthesis beforehand since it clearly indicated that a similar solution had been tried before but failed because the parties were not ready. That's the thing with a negotiated peace based on understanding... the parties have to be willing compromise in some fashion and be willing to reach an understanding that is less than ideal for either one of them... reach a middle ground, so to speak. As long as one side or the other (or both of them) are intent on just sticking to their guns and all costs, no accord can be reached.
The endings can be written forward such that the galaxy, with a long enough time gap, can be brought to a consistent state. If done in a "comic," the cost need not be exorbitant. The endings themselves need not be "destroyed" (voided) in the process. Writing a selection of events forward that mitigates the differences in the choices is the gentler approach that preserves some respect for, not only the ending choices made by all different players, but also the various choices made by different players throughout the game. If it's possible to overwrite all the endings (destroying all of them) and produce a totally new ending, then it's possible to write all endings forward with events to bring the game to that "new ending" state.
ETA: Destroy is the ending chosen by the Reapers every 50,000 years. It's as flawed as any of the others.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 23:08:09 GMT
But shepard doesn't die. So if he doesn't then why do the geth and edi? Do you actually see them die? I didn't. This was my point. Unless I see dead geth bodies I am hesistant to believe it
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 23, 2019 23:10:11 GMT
You know the irony here is that the levitheans created a synthetic to solve the problem of the synthetics rebelling against their creators and killing them.....there is no way this can backfire in a horribly ironic way. Oh, we know. The Leviathan even acknowledge it to Shepard. It was an ego thing. They'd been on total control for so long (except for those pesky synthetics that they couldn't control...) that they assumed no AI could turn against them. They were wrong. They, like the thing they created, caused a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is brutally Ironic.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 24, 2019 1:16:16 GMT
But shepard doesn't die. So if he doesn't then why do the geth and edi? Do you actually see them die? I didn't. Someone saw EDI die. As for the geth, they disappear from the ending slides in Destroy. If you want to pretend that this is meaningless, nobody can stop you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 2:01:06 GMT
So because they don't show it, it must be true?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 24, 2019 2:43:51 GMT
So because they don't show it, it must be true? Considering the whole point of the ending slides is to serve as an epilogue and show the results of all the storylines, yes.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2019 3:27:35 GMT
So because they don't show it, it must be true? Considering the whole point of the ending slides is to serve as an epilogue and show the results of all the storylines, yes. Agreed. Some people also like to sweep it under the rug and say stuff like "we can rebuild their bodies and re-insert the program". If that were true there would be no consequences and no reason the Reapers couldn't be restored. That would certainly prove that the Catalyst was right about the organic/synthetic war continuing.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 24, 2019 16:11:15 GMT
Considering the whole point of the ending slides is to serve as an epilogue and show the results of all the storylines, yes. Agreed. Some people also like to sweep it under the rug and say stuff like "we can rebuild their bodies and re-insert the program". If that were true there would be no consequences and no reason the Reapers couldn't be restored. That would certainly prove that the Catalyst was right about the organic/synthetic war continuing. Actually the reapers were a mix of organic and non organic so it wouldn't be as easy as rebuilding a robot body. Also I would assume that the reaper death beam killed their essence not their "bodies"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 17:27:39 GMT
So because they don't show it, it must be true? Considering the whole point of the ending slides is to serve as an epilogue and show the results of all the storylines, yes. Actually the subplot storylines were resolved when you cured the genophage, made peace on Rannoch, etc. Those slides at the end were made, because people expected their choices to affect the very end of the game and they didn't initially. Of course, you just got a second resolution on top of a resolution already given to you.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2019 19:06:41 GMT
Agreed. Some people also like to sweep it under the rug and say stuff like "we can rebuild their bodies and re-insert the program". If that were true there would be no consequences and no reason the Reapers couldn't be restored. That would certainly prove that the Catalyst was right about the organic/synthetic war continuing. Actually the reapers were a mix of organic and non organic so it wouldn't be as easy as rebuilding a robot body. Also I would assume that the reaper death beam killed their essence not their "bodies" Oh, right. Then the same would be true of EDI and the geth.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 24, 2019 19:23:27 GMT
Actually the reapers were a mix of organic and non organic so it wouldn't be as easy as rebuilding a robot body. Also I would assume that the reaper death beam killed their essence not their "bodies" Oh, right. Then the same would be true of EDI and the geth. Each reapers individual "existence" is tied to their ships. A geth on the other hand can have it's body destroyed and still be fine. The reason the quarians attack panicked the geth so much was because when they attacked the dyson sphere that the geth had alot of the geth actually died. Where as killing a geth prime for example does nothing to the "geth" except lose a body but they don't actually die. EDI is tied to the AI core in the normandy so it is closer to the reapers "style" AI. So the geth would be fine but yes edi may have died.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 24, 2019 20:03:17 GMT
If the edibot is taken on the beam run with ems below 2000, it will be destroyed by Harbinger, but it's name will not be on the memorial wall , if control is chosen, whereas if destroy is chosen, it's name will be on the memorial wall.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 24, 2019 20:17:05 GMT
If the edibot is taken on the beam run with ems below 2000, it will be destroyed by Harbinger, but it's name will not be on the memorial wall , if control is chosen, whereas if destroy is chosen, it's name will be on the memorial wall. Until I see joker in tears (if you hooked them up) I won't believe it
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2019 20:18:11 GMT
So the geth would be fine but yes edi may have died. An individual geth would be fine. Destroying the entire consensus (which is what would happen in Destroy) ends them.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 24, 2019 20:37:42 GMT
If the edibot is taken on the beam run with ems below 2000, it will be destroyed by Harbinger, but it's name will not be on the memorial wall , if control is chosen, whereas if destroy is chosen, it's name will be on the memorial wall. Until I see joker in tears (if you hooked them up) I won't believe it Believe what? The edibot being destroyed?
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