dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Prime Posts: 77
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 21, 2019 16:38:50 GMT
There's this science video on the subject of dark energy. Kind of a "what if the ME2 plot had happened"? It's almost 20 minutes long so don't feel obligated to watch the whole thing. It's also not definite but there is evidence. Point is, were the [alternate] Reapers right? Are biotics popping up around the galaxy and causing dark matter to rip apart sub-atomic particles? Man, that plot would have been so much better. Maybe something like the Crucible could have been used to moderate the strength of dark matter. Some ancient races could have begun developing this technology and so nullified the need for Reapers.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 21, 2019 16:58:38 GMT
I still think ME3, the reapers, their motivations and the ending should have heavily incorporated dark matter/eezo and it's implications for the galaxy/universe long term. Kinda like this, just block out the horrible VO quality and the fact there is a massive amount of complex exposition crammed into the last 10 minutes of the game and this would have been a good ending. I think. If something like this would have been the overall plotline bu we would have discovered all this and spread out the exposition over ME2 and ME3, I think it would have been awesome. Then, the title of the series "Mass Effect" would actually have foreshadowed the premise of the entire plot and the ending.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 21, 2019 18:08:41 GMT
The Dark Energy plot had even more issues than the one we got. For example, the Reapers having Dark Energy utilized in the tech they left behind so the races would develop along using Dark Energy sure seems to be counterproductive if their goal is to limit or stop it.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 21, 2019 18:14:07 GMT
I still think ME3, the reapers, their motivations and the ending should have heavily incorporated dark matter/eezo and it's implications for the galaxy/universe long term. Kinda like this, just block out the horrible VO quality and the fact there is a massive amount of complex exposition crammed into the last 10 minutes of the game and this would have been a good ending. I think. If something like this would have been the overall plotline bu we would have discovered all this and spread out the exposition over ME2 and ME3, I think it would have been awesome. Then, the title of the series "Mass Effect" would actually have foreshadowed the premise of the entire plot and the ending.
I still think they had it right in me1 and the reaper motivation should never have been revealed.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 21, 2019 18:40:41 GMT
The Dark Energy plot had even more issues than the one we got. For example, the Reapers having Dark Energy utilized in the tech they left behind so the races would develop along using Dark Energy sure seems to be counterproductive if their goal is to limit or stop it. That is not necessarily the case. It seems that the species in each cycle either invent eezo based FTL technology by themselves or find relics of previous cycles (such as with us finding prothean technology).
The reapers only provide mass relays. They might also be dark energy based but they provide two very important advantages: 1. They are an integral part of the reapers plan to cleanse the galaxy every 50.000 years by allowing them complete control over inter-cluster travel routes when the Citadel trap is activated. Therefore, they are extremely important tactically which may outweigh their dark energy usage.
2. Mass Relays effectively cut down on FTL travel massively by providing a faster and more convenient transportation over long distance. If everyone had to fly with standard FTL between clusters, you might have even more use of eezo than with the relays.
I mean, sure, the reapers use eezo themselves but there is simply no other means available to build anything beyond a type 1 civilization. It's similar to fossil fuel or nuclear power for us today. It generates a shitload of extremely toxic waste and gradually destroys our environment but there is no feasible alternative available to use. Until one is found, even environmentalists will use it.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 21, 2019 19:04:55 GMT
I'm not a fan of a biotics are somehow destroying the galaxy plot. I find that idea not particularly plausible given the scales. If anything FTL travel would cause tons more damage and reapers themselves would cause even more given their size, the relays even more. Biotics even will all biotic species like the asari would be a insignificant speck against the damage cause by just the relays.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 21, 2019 19:54:47 GMT
It wouldn't be biotics, it'd be eezo itself. Basically, when present in the right configuration/amount in a solar system, it could cause a Haestrom-like effect, which kind of does make sense superficially (again, it's Mass Effect, so don't get down to numbers). In general, something like a star creates massive EM fields and emits charged particles. Eezo needs electrical current to generate dark energy/mass altering effects, which could be provided by electromagnetic induction. Project that ME field back onto the star itself (say, if the eezo is geometrically arranged in the right spots or enough is there, since eezo physics are fictional, you have quite a bit of latitude there) and the star would go super nova more quickly (again, like Haestrom). Supernovae in turn generate eezo, so it's an exponentially deteriorating situation, just on a massive time scale and spatial scale (which is something that you kinda need for the reapers, it has to be something that would be tough to grasp for a species that doesn't live for over a billion years or so).
Now, With increasingly eezo dependent civilizations that shuttle the material around the galaxy, any interstellar civilization would participate in making the problem worse.
The reaper cycle is then intended to cut the growth of these civilizations back in order to preserve the galaxy's state as long as possible while they are trying to come up with a better long term solution.
I think just logically in the broad strokes it could have made sense. Of course, you'd need to color out the details but that's why I'm saying, if introduced and developed gradually over the cause of ME2 and ME3, it could have made for a great plotline.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 21, 2019 22:19:06 GMT
I still think they had it right in me1 and the reaper motivation should never have been revealed. It's hard to evaluate this kind of counterfactual. I'm pretty certain that I would have hated this, but that doesn't mean it would not have been better for the fanbase as a whole. Anyway, it doesn't sound like the devs ever considered going this route.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 21, 2019 22:20:56 GMT
The reapers only provide mass relays. They might also be dark energy based but they provide two very important advantages: 1. They are an integral part of the reapers plan to cleanse the galaxy every 50.000 years by allowing them complete control over inter-cluster travel routes when the Citadel trap is activated. Therefore, they are extremely important tactically which may outweigh their dark energy usage. 2. Mass Relays effectively cut down on FTL travel massively by providing a faster and more convenient transportation over long distance. If everyone had to fly with standard FTL between clusters, you might have even more use of eezo than with the relays. I mean, sure, the reapers use eezo themselves but there is simply no other means available to build anything beyond a type 1 civilization. It's similar to fossil fuel or nuclear power for us today. It generates a shitload of extremely toxic waste and gradually destroys our environment but there is no feasible alternative available to use. Until one is found, even environmentalists will use it.
The Reapers also permit races to find relics of the previous cycle, and to develop to a high enough technological level to rediscover the mass effect. They don't have to do either of these things.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 21, 2019 22:33:09 GMT
The Reapers also permit races to find relics of the previous cycle, and to develop to a high enough technological level to rediscover the mass effect. They don't have to do either of these things. As far as I know (and I may be missing something, it's been a while since I played the old trilogy) it is never established that the reapers explicitly allow (as in willingly provide the opportunity) for the next cycle to find those relics. Sovereign IIRC says that they put the relays in place, nothing more. For all we know, given the size of the galaxy, even for the reapers it may not be possible to cleanse every single artifact and outpost during their purges.
Take the facility on Mars for example. If the reapers would have left that one standing intentionally, don't you think they'd have at least checked those archives for data on the crucible or something. And even if there is mention of this in ME2/3, it could have easily been rewritten in that way (since we are talking about a reqrite of ME2/3 anyway).
And even if the reapers had left relics behind intentionally, this could even be a thing as well. I mean, since they allow the cycles to go on until the 50.000 years (or rather, until civilization gets to a point where there is a widespread galaxy wide infrastructure, one could ask, why do they even wait that long? IIRC on the old BW forums, there was a longer script version of the dialogue in the video above, with stuff they couldn't fit into the existing starkid conversation. There the idea was brought up that the reapers let the cycles go this far because part of their search for a solution to the eezo problem is the hope that in one of those cycles, one of the developing races actually comes up with some containment measure for eezo the reapers never thought about. So letting the cycles develop and letting each cycle experience eezo and experiment with it to some extent may be beneficial to their cause.
As I said before, plenty of room to expand on the details. I think the basic plot idea with the dark energy/matter problem was intriguing (much more so than the weird AI angle IMO).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 22, 2019 2:39:49 GMT
As I said before, plenty of room to expand on the details. I think the basic plot idea with the dark energy/matter problem was intriguing (much more so than the weird AI angle IMO). The bare bones of the plot are interesting. Probably would have gone through several rewrites beyond the initial idea we'd heard about. It does seem, as some have suggested, that it was worked into MEA in the form of the Scourge.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 19:08:43 GMT
I still think ME3, the reapers, their motivations and the ending should have heavily incorporated dark matter/eezo and it's implications for the galaxy/universe long term. Kinda like this, just block out the horrible VO quality and the fact there is a massive amount of complex exposition crammed into the last 10 minutes of the game and this would have been a good ending. I think. <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: 125px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_52555975" scrolling="no" width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 479px; top: 125px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_31340222" scrolling="no" width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: 413px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3946602" scrolling="no" width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 479px; top: 413px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_15434870" scrolling="no" width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977"></iframe> If something like this would have been the overall plotline bu we would have discovered all this and spread out the exposition over ME2 and ME3, I think it would have been awesome. Then, the title of the series "Mass Effect" would actually have foreshadowed the premise of the entire plot and the ending.
I still think they had it right in me1 and the reaper motivation should never have been revealed. This is what I thought before ME3 even came out. I think most people would have been fine or happy with this idea and while it wasn't a groundbreaking idea to leave it a mystery it is the one that made the most sense. The original ending were left very vague so why not leave their motivation that way. I think more people would be happy with that. Even if it was brought up by shepard facing off with harbinger in some form and saying "why are you doing this" to which harbinger replies "we are beyond you understanding" or even "because we can" I think people would have been fine with this. We know that the reapers are incredibly arrogant (with good reason) so this would fit into that behavior pattern.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 22, 2019 19:15:42 GMT
For once, I am with alanc9. I think I would have hated it too if the reaper's motivations were kept secret and mysterious. To me, scifi stories (and this kind of space opera scifi especially) are all about exploration, about discovery and about figuring shit out. It would have been really disappointing to me if we defeat the reapers somehow without figuring them out in some capacity. To me, since ME1 the key to defeating them always had to come from understanding them better.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:20:28 GMT
For once, I am with alanc9. I think I would have hated it too if the reaper's motivations were kept secret and mysterious. To me, scifi stories (and this kind of space opera scifi especially) are all about exploration, about discovery and about figuring shit out. It would have been really disappointing to me if we defeat the reapers somehow without figuring them out in some capacity. To me, since ME1 the key to defeat always had to come from understanding them better. This, for sure... even from the perspective of one can only go so many games telling people "you won't understand if I told you" before it starts to wear really thin.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 23:03:53 GMT
For once, I am with alanc9. I think I would have hated it too if the reaper's motivations were kept secret and mysterious. To me, scifi stories (and this kind of space opera scifi especially) are all about exploration, about discovery and about figuring shit out. It would have been really disappointing to me if we defeat the reapers somehow without figuring them out in some capacity. To me, since ME1 the key to defeat always had to come from understanding them better. This, for sure... even from the perspective of one can only go so many games telling people "you won't understand if I told you" before it starts to wear really thin. So if harbinger just said they did it because they could that would be fine? Or maybe that they did it to make sure that the organics never got far enough to be a threat?
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 23, 2019 1:47:39 GMT
The Dark Energy plot had even more issues than the one we got. For example, the Reapers having Dark Energy utilized in the tech they left behind so the races would develop along using Dark Energy sure seems to be counterproductive if their goal is to limit or stop it. Such as various references to it in ME2 being optional and easily missable (ex. if Reegar dies you don't get his reference).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 1:53:02 GMT
This, for sure... even from the perspective of one can only go so many games telling people "you won't understand if I told you" before it starts to wear really thin. So if harbinger just said they did it because they could that would be fine? Or maybe that they did it to make sure that the organics never got far enough to be a threat? They essentially said that they did it so that organics never got to be a threat, so I'm really not sure what you're getting at here since I'm the one person here who is probably the most OK with ME3's endings as they are.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 2:53:15 GMT
Dark energy was never intended to be in any part of the ending. Source
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 22, 2019 22:48:30 GMT
The Dark Energy plot had even more issues than the one we got. For example, the Reapers having Dark Energy utilized in the tech they left behind so the races would develop along using Dark Energy sure seems to be counterproductive if their goal is to limit or stop it. Why would the Reapers have to have to do anything with Dark Energy? Could just be an interesting side story. Not every interesting thing needs to be connected to the reapers
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 22, 2019 23:01:15 GMT
The Dark Energy plot had even more issues than the one we got. For example, the Reapers having Dark Energy utilized in the tech they left behind so the races would develop along using Dark Energy sure seems to be counterproductive if their goal is to limit or stop it. Why would the Reapers have to have to do anything with Dark Energy? Could just be an interesting side story. Not every interesting thing needs to be connected to the reapers I was referring to the plot where that was the motivation behind the Reapers’s actions.
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