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Post by colfoley on Apr 5, 2019 23:08:39 GMT
Singleplayer and offer a Season Pass to cover Singleplayer DLC Sell item and appearance packs Live Service Multiplayer game with strong ties to the singleplayer game Free maps Unlockable characters and weapons Sell lootboxes to help with the unlocks + upgrades Only one I think they won't do is the MP having strong ties to SP. But other than that, sounds like a pretty decent list.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 5, 2019 23:12:29 GMT
Singleplayer and offer a Season Pass to cover Singleplayer DLC Sell item and appearance packs Live Service Multiplayer game with strong ties to the singleplayer game Free maps Unlockable characters and weapons Sell lootboxes to help with the unlocks + upgrades Only one I think they won't do is the MP having strong ties to SP. But other than that, sounds like a pretty decent list. Yeah I think they learned their lesson about that one from ME3.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 5, 2019 23:15:48 GMT
Also if by 'unlockable characters' you mean additional companions...I doubt it. I suppose its possible though depending on how long they intend on 'servicing' the game and if a voice actor decides to bow out or something then they might need to replace that character in the roster but otherwise such things would be temporary companions or glorified cameos...like the Lts from Odyssey.
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Post by bladefist on Apr 5, 2019 23:36:17 GMT
By strong ties I mean, the fights happening in multiplayer need to make sense in regards to singleplayer.
Unlockable characters are like the Krogan Soldier, Asari Adept etc.
So in other words, keep the live services out of the singleplayer experience. I will play both SP and MP.
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Post by githcheater on Apr 6, 2019 2:48:25 GMT
Also if by 'unlockable characters' you mean additional companions...I doubt it. I suppose its possible though depending on how long they intend on 'servicing' the game and if a voice actor decides to bow out or something then they might need to replace that character in the roster but otherwise such things would be temporary companions or glorified cameos...like the Lts from Odyssey. Why not ... In your opinion? Shale, Sebastian and Tallis were DLC companions ... and Isabela was a companion in DAI multiplayer ...
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Post by colfoley on Apr 6, 2019 7:15:03 GMT
Also if by 'unlockable characters' you mean additional companions...I doubt it. I suppose its possible though depending on how long they intend on 'servicing' the game and if a voice actor decides to bow out or something then they might need to replace that character in the roster but otherwise such things would be temporary companions or glorified cameos...like the Lts from Odyssey. Why not ... In your opinion? Shale, Sebastian and Tallis were DLC companions ... and Isabela was a companion in DAI multiplayer ... Because they haven't done it in their last two releases and Jaavik was kind of really unpopular and caused a lot of controversy in some circles. Though I do think they may do someone like Tallis again.
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 26, 2019 5:50:13 GMT
While I'm only 25 min into this so far (it's quite long), it's very informative on GAAS as a whole - What is GAAS? Do you own your own software? Are some GAAS models fraud?
Definitely worth watching if you're at all interested in this topic.
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Post by river82 on Apr 26, 2019 6:12:18 GMT
While I'm only 25 min into this so far (it's quite long), it's very informative on GAAS as a whole - What is GAAS? Do you own your own software? Are some GAAS models fraud? Definitely worth watching if you're at all interesting in this topic. Only watched the first few minutes so far and it's already much more informative than a lot of stuff out there
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 26, 2019 10:29:57 GMT
I've only watched 10 minutes, but a TL;DW:
GaaS is selling a good as if it's a service. My own paraphrasing based on assumptions of where he is going:
They want to sell you a hammer, but not let you keep it. You pay full price for the hammer, but you give it back when you're done. And someday you won't have access to your, sorry, their hammer, because the shop you picked it up at and dropped it off to is gone.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 26, 2019 10:33:27 GMT
Why not ... In your opinion? Shale, Sebastian and Tallis were DLC companions ... and Isabela was a companion in DAI multiplayer ... Because they haven't done it in their last two releases and Jaavik was kind of really unpopular and caused a lot of controversy in some circles. Though I do think they may do someone like Tallis again. Javik was unpopular because he was day one DLC, and given who he was, appeared to be ripped out of the game to be sold separately, however unfair that assumption actually was. If it had been a companion that was not so tied to the lore and story, I doubt there would have been as much of a fuss. Tallis and Shale are excellent examples of this.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 26, 2019 13:21:16 GMT
I watched the entire video. Very nice contribution to the discussion!
While we COULD in theory work the legal angle in Europe, I don't think it's going to happen. Mostly based on that detail about these publishers being up front about the game servers being shut down at some point. Obviously no server will run forever, ni matter how much Bethesda claims the ones for FO76 will (lol).
Yes, it's technically fraud but then again it's such blatantly transparent fraud that they can claim anybody who wasn't aware they're being ripped off is a moron. Which tbh is true! When you buy an always online game anybody with half a brain can deduce that they won't still be able to play the game in 30 years. And the thing is, this is fine by most people.
The gambling aspect of loot boxes is a much more predatory and insidious thing because a lot of people are very vulnerable to it. And companies are NOT telling people that their games are introducing addictive gambling mechanics to CHILDREN. Hence laws were passed in some countries to protect against such predatory not at all transparent practices.
Now while I agree that GaaS is destroying gaming and deliberately takes all choice from the consumer about the goods they bought, it's very very obvious that this is the case. And people ARE aware of it. I think the only aspect of it that could be asking for regulation is the length of this "service". Maybe we need some kind of law that says servers need to be up and running for at least a year or something so that people can't actually be scammed big time by shitty games that go poof a month after release.
If people continue to WILLINGLY let themselves be fooled and exploited by companies, then nothing will change. Because apparently people don't actually care that their ownership rights are being taken from them or they would stop buying these games! The reality is that games are still "just" entertainment and most people move on before the servers are shut down. And if not, then tough luck. If they played a game for 1000 hours for 60 bucks, that's not exactly a rip off anymore if they had fun. It's still kind of fraud because the product you bought is no longer available. But this isn't actually a big deal to most people I would think judging my how successful this model is.
The only safeguard against being ripped off is not the law but common sense. Most schemes are quite easy to see through and then I suppose it's up to the individual to decide whether they want to take the gamble with GaaS. There are NO pros for the consumer here though, that is clear. It's a matter of how badly do I want this game and am I willing to waste 60 bucks on a shit game with a shit service.
While we shouldn't blame the victim, I can't help thinking it *is* your own fault when you buy an always online GaaS game and then cry about a shitty unfinished product and server shutdowns.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 26, 2019 16:54:19 GMT
Disclaimer: haven’t had time to watch the vid yet, just responding to /thread.
If it’s fraud, it’s the same fraud that every other form of digital entertainment is perpetrating, when no physical media is included —- and even then your rights are much more limited than for the hammer analogy. Do you really think you own the movie or tv season you purchased from Amazon Prime or Netflix for steaming? Or the ebook for your Kindle, if it’s drm’d? Read the fine print, you don’t. Your license for any of those things can get pulled, and you agreed to those terms when you clicked through the sign up flow.
You paid for limited access, not ownership.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 26, 2019 17:35:52 GMT
Disclaimer: haven’t had time to watch the vid yet, just responding to /thread. If it’s fraud, it’s the same fraud that every other form of digital entertainment is perpetrating, when no physical media is included —- and even then your rights are much more limited than for the hammer analogy. Do you really think you own the movie or tv season you purchased from Amazon Prime or Netflix for steaming? Or the ebook for your Kindle, if it’s drm’d? Read the fine print, you don’t. Your license for any of those things can get pulled, and you agreed to those terms when you clicked through the sign up flow. You paid for limited access, not ownership. I can see your point. But those things you can enjoy ‘offline’ with no interference from theoretical licence restrictions. Well, Netflix? That’s a streaming service. He makes it clear streaming services are not fraud. His example is a subscription based mmo like wow. You are paying for access to their servers to play the game, not for the game itself. One thing that occurred to me, that may not have occurred to him on that point is, originally we paid up front for wow or Everquest etc, so maybe that fraud bit applied back then. ?
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 26, 2019 18:29:40 GMT
Disclaimer: haven’t had time to watch the vid yet, just responding to /thread. If it’s fraud, it’s the same fraud that every other form of digital entertainment is perpetrating, when no physical media is included —- and even then your rights are much more limited than for the hammer analogy. Do you really think you own the movie or tv season you purchased from Amazon Prime or Netflix for steaming? Or the ebook for your Kindle, if it’s drm’d? Read the fine print, you don’t. Your license for any of those things can get pulled, and you agreed to those terms when you clicked through the sign up flow. You paid for limited access, not ownership. You'll want to watch the video.
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Post by river82 on Apr 26, 2019 21:35:09 GMT
Or the ebook for your Kindle, if it’s drm’d? Heh heh heh, puny form of DRM
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 26, 2019 22:53:44 GMT
But those things you can enjoy ‘offline’ with no interference from theoretical licence restrictions. Well, no, I specifically used examples that can’t be done 100% offline. But if the video already discounted streaming or subscription, how does GaaS not count as well? I guess I’ll just have to watch the video. To my mind, there’s no material difference between buying a movie from Netflix or Apple TV and buying a GaaS game — they all require some contact with servers over some recurring period of time to check your license.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 26, 2019 23:09:34 GMT
But those things you can enjoy ‘offline’ with no interference from theoretical licence restrictions. Well, no, I specifically used examples that can’t be done 100% offline. But if the video already discounted streaming or subscription, how does GaaS not count as well? I guess I’ll just have to watch the video. To my mind, there’s no material difference between buying a movie from Netflix or Apple TV and buying a GaaS game — they all require some contact with servers over some recurring period of time to check your license. I hate to break it to you but games have had to connect to servers long before 'GaaS' actually became much of a thing. Of course I suppose to interact with a game's live service elements (patches, DLC, etc) would require a net collection to download but that hardly seems to be a very fair line in the sand considering how much games can benefit from online connectivity. Also, there is a huge difference between Apple, Netflix, and buying a 'GaaS' game. I've bought GaaS games that were physical copies, as much as digital only might cause issues (or might not) that game, at least is mine and will never stop being mine even if the servers close down. Apple (as far as I know) is a digital service that lets you buy movies. Now there is some indication that buying movies in such places could cause issues for you down the road, those movies are still essentially yours as well to watch as much as you want. Netflix is a streaming 'rental' service. The movies on their website are 'theirs' and you can watch anything in their library while it still is on there before they rotate them out.
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Post by river82 on Apr 26, 2019 23:13:03 GMT
But those things you can enjoy ‘offline’ with no interference from theoretical licence restrictions. Well, no, I specifically used examples that can’t be done 100% offline. But if the video already discounted streaming or subscription, how does GaaS not count as well? I guess I’ll just have to watch the video. To my mind, there’s no material difference between buying a movie from Netflix or Apple TV and buying a GaaS game — they all require some contact with servers over some recurring period of time to check your license. He says (12 mins in approx) that there are two types of software licenses: perpetual and subscription licenses. Perpetual are forever, it's a product and undergoes transfer of ownership at the point of sale. He then says if you pay once and do not have to pay a subscription for your game, then by definition that game is being sold under a perpetual license. He then pointed to a ruling by the European Union's highest court that said software whether sold by a license and physically or digitally distributed, represents a good and not a service. And any purchaser of a perpetual licensed software becomes the exclusive owner over that instance. Watch the video xD
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 27, 2019 17:42:16 GMT
He says (12 mins in approx) that there are two types of software licenses: perpetual and subscription licenses. Perpetual are forever, it's a product and undergoes transfer of ownership at the point of sale. He then says if you pay once and do not have to pay a subscription for your game, then by definition that game is being sold under a perpetual license. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Insofar as what the lawyers at work have told me about our own digital content, software and services, at least in the US. I took a look at the EA legalese, and I think that regardless of whether the above is right or wrong, EA has created a loophole that is consistent with what I was saying above, that you don't own your EA software, you license it, and they can revoke that license at any time. First, they make the EA Terms of Service an integral part of every purchase of everything through Origin. Here's how they do it with SWBF2: STAR WARS™ Battlefront™ II Terms and Conditions INTERNET CONNECTION; EA ACCOUNT; ACCEPTANCE OF EA USER AGREEMENT (terms.ea.com), PRIVACY AND COOKIE POLICY (privacy.ea.com), AND ORIGIN END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (ea.com/legal) AND INSTALLATION OF THE ORIGIN CLIENT SOFTWARE (origin.com/download) REQUIRED TO PLAY. Second, the terms.ea.com is redirected to: tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/Which contains this nugget: 2. License The EA Services are licensed to you, not sold. EA grants you a personal, limited, non-transferable, revocable and non-exclusive license to use the EA Services to which you have access for your non-commercial use, subject to your compliance with this Agreement. You may not access, copy, modify or distribute any EA Service, Content or Entitlements (as those terms are defined below), unless expressly authorized by EA or permitted by law. You may not reverse engineer or attempt to extract or otherwise use source code or other data from EA Services, unless expressly authorized by EA or permitted by law. EA or its licensors own and reserve all other rights, including all right, title and interest in the EA Services and associated intellectual property rights.
So, in other words, you have to have EA Origin (or anything that counts as EA Services) to play the game, and then they only license that service to you. And they can revoke that license. The product (SWBF2) is locked, and the key is the EA Service, and the EA Service is a revocable license. Therefore, by the transitive property, SWBF2 is EFFECTIVELY also a revocable license. Pretty clever. P.S. I searched every Legal document on the EA site for the term "perpetual", and the only place I found that used in the context of a perpetual license is when YOU grant a perpetual license to EA for use of your user generated content. Linus's statement that perpetual is implied by the lack of the word subscription or by sale goes against everything I've been told by lawyers -- if it's not explicitly spelled out in the terms, it ain't true, or at least, it can be argued against in court.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 27, 2019 19:38:58 GMT
Regardless of how much EA and other publishers covered their asses on this, fact remains that these games will stop to function at some point and you have no way of telling when. You are at the mercy of these publishers. No matter how much fun you're having, they decide when the game stops being profitable enough to justify server maintenance. Or simply shut the servers down to push the next game in the series. Supposedly Nvidia also gimps their older GPUs with "updates" at some point in order to push you to buy an upgrade.
Like I said, always online is BAD for the consumer. Takes away all their choices. Most people probably don't care much as long as they got to play long enough. But it's not a good direction at all. Especially when always online is used as an anti piracy excuse for games that don't actually need to be always online.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 27, 2019 20:12:26 GMT
Regardless of how much EA and other publishers covered their asses on this, fact remains that these games will stop to function at some point and you have no way of telling when. You are at the mercy of these publishers. No matter how much fun you're having, they decide when the game stops being profitable enough to justify server maintenance. Or simply shut the servers down to push the next game in the series. Supposedly Nvidia also gimps their older GPUs with "updates" at some point in order to push you to buy an upgrade. Like I said, always online is BAD for the consumer. Takes away all their choices. Most people probably don't care much as long as they got to play long enough. But it's not a good direction at all. Especially when always online is used as an anti piracy excuse for games that don't actually need to be always online. what does this have to do with GaaS?
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 27, 2019 22:24:19 GMT
what does this have to do with GaaS? Because GaaS is always online? Which is the key argument of that video that apparently nobody watched. ;P
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Post by colfoley on Apr 27, 2019 22:31:56 GMT
what does this have to do with GaaS? Because GaaS is always online? Which is the key argument of that video that apparently nobody watched. ;P Well if that's a key argument of the video I am glad I didn't waste my time watching it since that is an inaccurate statement.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 28, 2019 3:14:54 GMT
Because GaaS is always online? Which is the key argument of that video that apparently nobody watched. ;P Well if that's a key argument of the video I am glad I didn't waste my time watching it since that is an inaccurate statement. It's not. The video starts by defining GaaS specifically as a game that is always online, or more to the point, requires on-going online support to be usable. The crux of the vid's argument is that you are sold a product (I won't call it a "Good", because in the US even the vid admits that's not established in law -- but it is in the EU and Australia and other regions) that you should be able to use forever, like you would a hammer -- even if the company that made the hammer goes out of business, but because the GaaS game you bought stops working when the developer shuts down the service, it's fraud, because they knowingly sold you a product that they could make unusable at any time, without your permission and without having to give you a refund. There is no other product like that.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 28, 2019 3:31:01 GMT
Well if that's a key argument of the video I am glad I didn't waste my time watching it since that is an inaccurate statement. It's not. The video starts by defining GaaS specifically as a game that is always online, or more to the point, requires on-going online support to be usable. The crux of the vid's argument is that you are sold a product (I won't call it a "Good", because in the US even the vid admits that's not established in law -- but it is in the EU and Australia and other regions) that you should be able to use forever, like you would a hammer -- even if the company that made the hammer goes out of business, but because the GaaS game you bought stops working when the developer shuts down the service, it's fraud, because they knowingly sold you a product that they could make unusable at any time, without your permission and without having to give you a refund. There is no other product like that. Except that is not how GaaS games work. Nor is that the in industry definition of a GaaS. I mean yes, that is a potential flaw of games that are *always* online. But I think people know that. They just hope to get their money's worth out of it before it ends. And GaaS games aren't the same as games that are online only, though probably most of those games do have a GaaS model.
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