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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 7, 2019 9:41:35 GMT
Remember, DAI hid a lot of facial animations by leaving the conversations zoomed out. True, but the game had plenty of cutscenes and they were decent. Eyes weren't dead like in MEA. Although DAI did have a good deal of claymation effect which looks like an engine thing though to me. Bioware never had amazing animations. They still are just fine in Anthem but I'm not complaining. That's a minor detail. My main issues with MEA weren't faces and animations though (which was apparently and outsourced rush job?) but tone deaf boring writing and horrendous quest design and dull quests overall. Plus sterile open world. None of these things are engine problems I would say but talent problems and shift in narrative design and maybe target audience that I don't enjoy at all. If Bioware manages to salvage Anthem then the engine slowed them down but they could have made a decent game if they had managed to have a compelling vision earlier. Frostbite is a factor but unless Bioware gets a grip on enemy design/AI, open world and writing, I don't think an engine switch would magically fix all problems.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2019 12:03:12 GMT
People are completely ignoring one of the best aspect of Frosbite engine, as far as bioware is concerned. IT IS FREE!
Why is support lack? How much dedicated support do you expect when you are not paying for it. Poorly documented? Sure, why would dice go to the extra trouble of doing that if it doesnt expect to profit from its effort.
We the end user dont care about this, but if you are Bioware, you might think the headache is worth a few miilion dollars.
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 7, 2019 13:00:31 GMT
People are completely ignoring one of the best aspect of Frosbite engine, as far as bioware is concerned. IT IS FREE! Why is support lack? How much dedicated support do you expect when you are not paying for it. Poorly documented? Sure, why would dice go to the extra trouble of doing that if it doesnt expect to profit from its effort. We the end user dont care about this, but if you are Bioware, you might think the headache is worth a few miilion dollars. Just because it's proprietary EA engine doesn't mean it's "free". The Frostbite engine costs EA just like licensed engines.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 7, 2019 19:44:14 GMT
Is there a way for EA to create a new version of the Frostbite engine, one that is designed to have all the cool stuff while also being more intuitive, functional, and better documented so the devs could use it easier? Since EA owns Frostbite through DICE, yes, absolutely. Whether they want to pay for it is another question.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 7, 2019 19:48:37 GMT
People are completely ignoring one of the best aspect of Frosbite engine, as far as bioware is concerned. IT IS FREE! Why is support lack? How much dedicated support do you expect when you are not paying for it. Poorly documented? Sure, why would dice go to the extra trouble of doing that if it doesnt expect to profit from its effort. We the end user dont care about this, but if you are Bioware, you might think the headache is worth a few miilion dollars. Just because it's proprietary EA engine doesn't mean it's "free". The Frostbite engine costs EA just like licensed engines. In terms of development costs, maintenance costs and tooling, yes, but in terms of per-unit sold license fees, no. From the Unreal 4 FAQ: A company the size of EA/Bioware would no doubt cut custom terms, but it still works out to some kind of per-unit royalty on average. EA would not be paying itself this fee, that would be dumb. Well, actually, it's possible for taxation and bookkeeping reasons they may actually book it as a charge-back between P&Ls, like for Bioware it's accounted as a cost and for DICE it's income, but that's all swept under the rug in EA's balance sheet.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 9, 2019 3:58:31 GMT
Do you think that, when a studio hits a certain size, they're at the point where they probably need their own engine? If you think about it, alot of studios do this currently. Rockstar has the RAGE engine, Bethesda has the Creation Engine, DICE has Frostbite, The Division has Snowdrop, Metal Gear Solid V had the Fox Engine, etc. I think BioWare is in need of their own in-house engine. One that is specifically tailored for their games.
On that last point, I also wonder if BioWare trying to have so many diverse gameplay mechanics ultimately leads to many of the difficulties they face with each title. I know there's leadership problems with the studio, but Frostbite probably wouldn't be as bad to deal with if BioWare kept to the relatively slower pace of the Mass Effect/Dragon Age trilogies.
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Post by shaqfu on Apr 9, 2019 4:09:42 GMT
If EA didn't already use Origin I wouldn't be surprised if the next Bioware game used Unreal 4 and was an epic exlusive, since that deal apparently waves the engine fee.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 9, 2019 4:47:29 GMT
If EA didn't already use Origin I wouldn't be surprised if the next Bioware game used Unreal 4 and was an epic exlusive, since that deal apparently waves the engine fee. DA4 will definitely be Frostbite, and the engine will continue to be used for the foreseeable future. You do bring up something pretty interesting though. Do you risk the wrath of your PC playerbase in order to develop your game on a more stable engine (Unreal 4), or continue to labor away at something that is "full of razor blades"?
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2019 16:38:27 GMT
I don't quite get the OP to be honest. Isn't that exactly what the article says? Frostbite had a lot of issues for the type of game BW wanted to develop. No one says it's a bad engine per se.
And the main focus of the Frostbite criticism is about the lack of support and tool documentation, which is pretty much exactly what you are talking about.
In general, I think EA should finally realize this as well. This is the third game just from BW alone, where we heard extensively about the problems that the external decision for them to use the engine brought about. Enough already! Either let you developers "on the ground" choose their engine according to the needs of the game they want to build or get them the support they need, i.e. a bunch of people per studio that do nothing else but engine and toolset support and development.
Yes, it's more expensive but having your games messed up by the general population on the internet is probably even more expensive in the long run.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 9, 2019 17:05:51 GMT
Yes, it's more expensive but having your games messed up by the general population on the internet is probably even more expensive in the long run. I wonder if that's actually the case... As long as the games push a lot of initial sales I wonder if EA really cares all that much about gamer outrage. Everyone hates them anyway, and yet EA games make billions.
I guess we'll see with DA4. If EA grants them proper tech support, I think Bioware will let us know. If looks to be as messy as Anthem, I think EA is going to pull the plug on the game and close down Bioware and blame their inability to work with the engine rather than admit they're screwing their studios over. Best way to deflect blame is to blame somebody else. Yes, I'm cynical.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2019 17:11:29 GMT
I think EA is going to pull the plug on the game and close down Bioware and blame their inability to work with the engine rather than admit they're screwing their studios over. That's kind of what I meant though. If EA does nothing and then has to close down BW eventually, a high profile brand that they acquired at some considerable cost and also invested a lot in afterwards, then ran into the ground because of shitty support and the rule to use this engine for everything, I'd assume that would overall be more expensive than supporting them properly and keeping their high reputation for longer.
But it's tough to say and since EA is a stock traded company, long term goals are less important than the next balance sheet, so I think the most likely culprit for the whole situation is a bunch of managers wanting to look good on paper until they move on within just a couple of years.
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Post by spacev3gan on Apr 9, 2019 17:35:19 GMT
EA is about to reveal their new Star Wars game, being developed by Respawn Entertainment (creators of Titanfall and Apex Legends) and I am very curious to know whether it will use Frostbite or not, but most likely it will.
Other than EA Sports titles and DICE, I believe Bioware has been the only other studio who has developed using Frostbite so far? It will be interesting to see how Respawn will manage developing in Frostbite. We will get to know for sure whether this engine is the problem when it comes to other studios under EA using it, or whether it was Bioware inability after all responsible for its shortcomings with the engine.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 9, 2019 17:52:49 GMT
That's kind of what I meant though. If EA does nothing and then has to close down BW eventually, a high profile brand that they acquired at some considerable cost and also invested a lot in afterwards, then ran into the ground because of shitty support and the rule to use this engine for everything, I'd assume that would overall be more expensive than supporting them properly and keeping their high reputation for longer.
But it's tough to say and since EA is a stock traded company, long term goals are less important than the next balance sheet, so I think the most likely culprit for the whole situation is a bunch of managers wanting to look good on paper until they move on within just a couple of years.
Again I wonder if this hurts EA at all, closing down studios. They can just buy new ones. Plus, what are, say, 5 million sold copies of a Bioware game compared to the BILLIONS that their sports games generate through MTX? I think we Bioware fans do not properly grasp how unimportant in the overall profit machine an RPG studio is. Just because Bioware makes them a profit and happens to score second place in terms of profit in a certain time frame where there's no big sports title, doesn't mean EA is in any way reliant on their smaller studios. The money these cards in sports games make is RIDICULOUS.
I don't have any numbers right now, but I would guess 80% of the profit EA makes is sports games. A good reputation isn't all that important anymore when you've got your gambling casino running just fine. THOSE people will always come back...
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2019 17:54:40 GMT
EA is about to reveal their new Star Wars game, being developed by Respawn Entertainment (creators of Titanfall and Apex Legends) and I am very curious to know whether it will use Frostbite or not, but most likely it will. Other than EA Sports titles and DICE, I believe Bioware has been the only other studio who has developed using Frostbite so far? It will be interesting to see how Respawn will manage developing in Frostbite. We will get to know for sure whether this engine is the problem when it comes to other studios under EA using it, or whether it was Bioware inability after all responsible for its shortcomings with the engine. True but when evaluating this, we'll also have to look at what type of game Fallen Order will be and how close it is to what Frostbite was originally made for (i.e. shooters with good looking destructible leveled environments, rather than third person RPGs with inventory/loot management and (semi) open worlds).
Kappa Neko : I don't know either. All I'm saying is that I doubt it was EA's intention to only keep BioWare open for another couple of years when they bought the studio and made it one of their flagship brands. Whenever they do close down an studio that used to be reputable, I doubt there is much question that somebody fucked up and in this case, the whole Frostbite initiative (and the managers who pushed that through) is a likely (though probably not the only) culprit, even if EA will never admit that.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Apr 9, 2019 18:38:09 GMT
Yes, it's more expensive but having your games messed up by the general population on the internet is probably even more expensive in the long run. I wonder if that's actually the case... As long as the games push a lot of initial sales I wonder if EA really cares all that much about gamer outrage. Everyone hates them anyway, and yet EA games make billions.
I guess we'll see with DA4. If EA grants them proper tech support, I think Bioware will let us know. If looks to be as messy as Anthem, I think EA is going to pull the plug on the game and close down Bioware and blame their inability to work with the engine rather than admit they're screwing their studios over. Best way to deflect blame is to blame somebody else. Yes, I'm cynical.
I would say so. Look at it from EA perspective (hard, I know): 1) They emphasize that they want all of their games to include online components, as well as live-service components 2) Live service is meant to be a way to generate recurrent revenue to continue to fuel the companies profits 3) The more players who engage with their titles, on a daily basis, the greater the amount of recurrent revenue they make Anthem releasing in the shape it did absolutely cost EA money in terms of recurrent revenue. Had the game released with more content, better design choices, and less bugs, it could have retained a significantly larger player population. More players means more people spending money on microtransactions. More spending on microtransactions means more money for the studio, as well as EA. The shortsightedness of Western publishers knows no bounds when it comes to making high short term profits; video game performance be damned.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 9, 2019 18:51:28 GMT
biggydx Yes, of course Anthem's messy situation cost EA money. They would like millions of people to buy their MTX. I guess it boils down to how much money they estimate they lost and much money it would cost to avoid such a situation in the future with proper Frostbite support. If their analysts think the investment won't pay off because even if Anthem was more of a success it still wouldn't drive even a fraction of the numbers as FIFA, I can't see them changing their modus operandi. They might give it a shot though, if somebody in management can see past their own paycheck...
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 9, 2019 18:52:08 GMT
EA is about to reveal their new Star Wars game, being developed by Respawn Entertainment (creators of Titanfall and Apex Legends) and I am very curious to know whether it will use Frostbite or not, but most likely it will. Other than EA Sports titles and DICE, I believe Bioware has been the only other studio who has developed using Frostbite so far? It will be interesting to see how Respawn will manage developing in Frostbite. We will get to know for sure whether this engine is the problem when it comes to other studios under EA using it, or whether it was Bioware inability after all responsible for its shortcomings with the engine. Maybe partly but not necessarily - or at least not entirely. Respawn's SW game might require things from an engine that align very nicely with what Frostbite is and does. BioWare (or any other game development effort) might be trying to do things that Frostbite doesn't support so well. IIRC, one of the hills BioWare had to climb in developing DAI was figuring out what to do about the fact that Frostbite was never designed to support RPGs. ============================================================================================= Hindsight... woulda coulda shoulda... yeah, I know everyone has armchair opinions, but if anyone will indulge me, I'll share mine here. What should have happened when Frostbite was offered for the use of other studios: -- They should have established a separate division for it - if not entirely independent, at least a division within DICE responsible to support other studios' use of Frostbite. -- The engine should be well-documented and supported, with a laundry list of new features and enhancements and a schedule of when they'll be available. -- There should be a formal process for reporting bugs, discrepancies, shortcomings, new feature requests and they should be entertained and addressed in the release schedule suggested above. -- Things that Frostbite doesn't do and never will do should also be clearly identified. I suspect that studios like BioWare might save a tremendous amount of effort if they know up-front that a thing isn't do-able with the engine they're using. Yes, it would take an investment of additional $ to do the above, but it would pay off in several ways: -- Frostbite could become an engine attractive to developers outside of EA. This would result in additional revenue for licensing fees. -- Significant cost savings. Unless the API to a platform/middleware is well-documented and explains what each function call does, the programmer is left to figure it out via trial and error, which is a very costly process. I've suspected that (at least part of) the reason some content has been cut is because they were never able to get some of the things they've wanted to do to work with Frostbite... so they had to go back to the design stage and re-do a lot of other things to compensate. -- The lack of adequate documentation/training/support for Frostbite use has had other costs. BioWare being required to forfeit some of their personnel experienced with Frostbite to work on FIFA, for example. People who know how to work with Frostbite seem to be at a premium, and that is costly in itself. Indeed, there is always a learning curve associated with unfamiliar technology, but that curve is greatly shortened when the new technology comes with adequate documentation, support, and training. Since labor costs comprise the bulk of the cost structure in software development, making your labor more effective with the technology at a faster pace has a huge potential for cost savings. I would suggest that this is one of those times when being cheap has been very expensive.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2019 19:10:11 GMT
EA is about to reveal their new Star Wars game, being developed by Respawn Entertainment (creators of Titanfall and Apex Legends) and I am very curious to know whether it will use Frostbite or not, but most likely it will. Other than EA Sports titles and DICE, I believe Bioware has been the only other studio who has developed using Frostbite so far? It will be interesting to see how Respawn will manage developing in Frostbite. We will get to know for sure whether this engine is the problem when it comes to other studios under EA using it, or whether it was Bioware inability after all responsible for its shortcomings with the engine. Maybe partly but not necessarily - or at least not entirely. Respawn's SW game might require things from an engine that align very nicely with what Frostbite is and does. BioWare (or any other game development effort) might be trying to do things that Frostbite doesn't support so well. IIRC, one of the hills BioWare had to climb in developing DAI was figuring out what to do about the fact that Frostbite was never designed to support RPGs.
I can totally see that happening as well.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 9, 2019 19:20:02 GMT
I don't quite get the OP to be honest. Isn't that exactly what the article says? Frostbite had a lot of issues for the type of game BW wanted to develop. No one says it's a bad engine per se. ”Frostbite is full of razor blades” is a criticism of the engine itself, so “no one says” is contradicted by the article. The article goes on to paint a picture that, at least to me, reads in part as Frostbite is a bad engine. Then you have all the fan comments about how Frostbite is shit, based on what I’m not exactly sure.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 9, 2019 19:29:56 GMT
Do you think that, when a studio hits a certain size, they're at the point where they probably need their own engine? If you think about it, alot of studios do this currently. Rockstar has the RAGE engine, Bethesda has the Creation Engine, DICE has Frostbite, The Division has Snowdrop, Metal Gear Solid V had the Fox Engine, etc. I think BioWare is in need of their own in-house engine. One that is specifically tailored for their games. I suspect it’s more an ego/vanity vs. expedience decision. Even small studios invent new engines, e.g. Hello Games for NMS. There’s a strong “I can do it better” mentality, particularly from grad students fresh out of their research projects where they’ve found a new way to do lighting or ray tracing or occlusion. You can trace a lot of groundbreaking features in each new engine back to some SIGGRAPH paper. I’m being a bit unfair, since ego and competitive edge are sometimes hard to distinguish, or are mutually supportive. There’s no question that making a new engine that delivers a big leap in quality can generate buzz for your game, CryEngine for Crysis being the textbook example.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2019 19:36:21 GMT
I don't quite get the OP to be honest. Isn't that exactly what the article says? Frostbite had a lot of issues for the type of game BW wanted to develop. No one says it's a bad engine per se. ”Frostbite is full of razor blades” is a criticism of the engine itself, so “no one says” is contradicted by the article. The article goes on to paint a picture that, at least to me, reads in part as Frostbite is a bad engine. Then you have all the fan comments about how Frostbite is shit, based on what I’m not exactly sure. I don't think so. It was full of razor blades for what BioWare tried to do with it.
IMO that becomes quite clear. The razor blades refer to basically baking one into a cake, as in, you don't see it until it hurts you. Like when they tried to set up inventory management and realized too late that this was a major issue (hence needing a loading screen at first, just to open your inventory). And I completely get that. It doesn't make it a bad engine, just a more specialized one (and that's exactly what is stated, that the engine was designed as an in-house engine for DICE, not as a multi-studio tech framework).
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 9, 2019 19:55:06 GMT
Maybe partly but not necessarily - or at least not entirely. Respawn's SW game might require things from an engine that align very nicely with what Frostbite is and does. BioWare (or any other game development effort) might be trying to do things that Frostbite doesn't support so well. IIRC, one of the hills BioWare had to climb in developing DAI was figuring out what to do about the fact that Frostbite was never designed to support RPGs. I can totally see that happening as well.
I do have one idea about how DA4 could capitali$e on the GaaS theme without putting off too many traditional DA fans. Basically, selling a season pass - either in addition to the game itself or as an available add-on later. I understand that DLCs don't always generate the hoped-for revenue - mostly because a lot of players have already moved on by the time they're released, so significant percentages of your initial buyers don't buy them. Season pass pricing is usually a little cheaper than buying each DLC individually, so it could be an attractive option for players who expect to stick with the game for awhile. And you'll get some sales to people who would not have stuck around to buy more DLCs as they're released, so there's a significant opportunity to capture some otherwise unavailable revenue. As for the rest, it's awfully short-sighted of EA to be so focused on online-only GaaS MP. I understand there is massive profit to be made in that space, but there's also profit to be made in character and narrative driven RPGs done right. It's like they're robbing the cash cow already living in their barn in order to pursue the elusive cash whale.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 9, 2019 20:20:06 GMT
That's kind of what I meant though. If EA does nothing and then has to close down BW eventually, a high profile brand that they acquired at some considerable cost and also invested a lot in afterwards, then ran into the ground because of shitty support and the rule to use this engine for everything, I'd assume that would overall be more expensive than supporting them properly and keeping their high reputation for longer.
But it's tough to say and since EA is a stock traded company, long term goals are less important than the next balance sheet, so I think the most likely culprit for the whole situation is a bunch of managers wanting to look good on paper until they move on within just a couple of years.
Again I wonder if this hurts EA at all, closing down studios. They can just buy new ones. Well, they do have to pay for new studios, so that's kind of costly for EA. But whether this hurts EA isn't necessarily the right question anyway. The question is, does it hurt the current decision-makers? "My predecessor set millions of dollars on fire when he bought Bioware; I'm just containing the damage" is a classic move. And yeah, Bio's small enough that I don't think this will matter too much to EA one way or another. Dunno if that's good or bad. Could be good; people tend to get a bit irrational when things have gone really wrong. There's a difference between a project that didn't earn out and a project which screwed up your entire balance sheet,
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Aug 28, 2016 22:05:52 GMT
August 2016
spacev3gan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
SpaceV3gan
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Post by spacev3gan on Apr 13, 2019 19:29:12 GMT
Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order, produced by Respawn Entertainment and EA's next big game is, in all likely, being developed using Unreal Engine. The trailer released today features no gameplay footage. However, it states that it is created in Unreal, and given that the game itself is coming relatively soon, on November 15th (7 months from now), I guess we have reasons to speculate that it will be an Unreal Engine game. If so, that strengthens the narrative that using Frostbite Engine for Bioware games was Bioware's own decision, rather than EA forcing all of their studios to use Frostbite.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Sept 26, 2016 13:29:55 GMT
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Arijon van Goyen
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August 2016
kaiserarian
17300
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Apr 13, 2019 19:43:24 GMT
Imma defenin Frostbite now!
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