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Post by solomace on Apr 22, 2019 5:18:58 GMT
As much as I can understand the sentiment, I'm sorry but Lootboxes, games as a service and games such as Anthem, Fallout etc are should be addressed more than the terrible working conditions that devs have. I'm sorry but if it's so poor, leave. Okay I know it's not that simple, however this issue isn't something that we can sort out because most people who buy these games, don't even care to look at forums or read Kotaku expos, they just want to play great games without getting shafted. Lootboxes are more of a problem than developers health. One directly effect the consumer, the other doesn't. Sorry, I sound callous, but facts are facts. It's down to Bioware to sort it's own house out, same as CD or Bethesda. If you want to do something about this by boycotting buying games from every game company, more power to you, but I think we all know your posting history and if DA4 was to come out tomorrow with an expo on the Bioware magic/crunch, you and others that we all know on here, will buy it. Too many on here talk about how it's wrong but will still buy the games and play them and defend them, but talk about how bad it is on developers. First world problems that shouldn't involve us as consumers. Yep, harsh, but at least I live in the RL. I agree with you, as consumers our first concern will always be and always should be the product that we purchase not the stories behind the manufacture of that purchase. Sure, we can be aware of bad practices such as kids being forced to work in deplorable sweat shop conditions when making our footware/clothing etc but they are the extreme end. When we hear about "terrible working conditions" in first world countries how much is subjective ie: "I don't like my job therefore the conditions are terrible" and how much is "I am being forced to work in terrible conditions", I would suggest hardly anyone in a developed country is forced to do anything that would fit the criteria, don't like the job, find another or lodge a complaint with the relevant authorities. On the flipside we have companies crying poor and "doing it tough" but why should that even register with us as consumers, we don't have access to the financials to confirm the data and have no control as individuals as to how the company is run. Banks are notorious for crying poor when upping fees and charges but still manage to post mega ridiculous profits. Why should we care as consumers, its like a renter going to their landlord and claiming that they cant pay the rent that month because times are tough, why should the landlord care? If the devs are finding it too tough they should look for employment elsewhere, its the best way of forcing change, not going to the public and claiming the job is too hard while still collecting their paycheck. As consumers our first priority has to be the product we purchase and whether we believe we got value for money, not the sob stories behind the purchase. To me its a gullibility thing, like believing a game company when they say they "listened to their customers", if that were in anyway true we would all be full Legendary with one shot inscriptions, be indestructible and have never ending content being released every day. To me what they are actually saying is we decided to put something in place based on our business plan and coincidentally someone or a few people asked for/mentioned it some time back. If conditions are as terrible as some make out then the best course of action would be the people working in those conditions leave, the more experienced workers wouldn't work there, the products being released would be sub standard so wont be purchased, the company either turns things around or goes bust, either way the problem is solved. But as consumers the only power we have to make change is through purchasing or not purchasing, but without first hand access to the real data/story our only concern should be the product. Good post mate. Well thought out and articulated.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 22, 2019 8:16:36 GMT
Which would mean they didn't stick to their schedule and you were flat out wrong. No, it would mean they had a change of plan, but I would expect a significant change to be communicated in good time with an explanation, you can't just dump a 'no show' on players with 30 minutes to spare with no good reason. And this is not about me being wrong or not, I'm just reading the roadmap. If it doesn't happen that's BioWare's problem, not mine.
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mgsmsc
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 22, 2019 9:46:19 GMT
As much as I can understand the sentiment, I'm sorry but Lootboxes, games as a service and games such as Anthem, Fallout etc are should be addressed more than the terrible working conditions that devs have. I'm sorry but if it's so poor, leave. Okay I know it's not that simple, however this issue isn't something that we can sort out because most people who buy these games, don't even care to look at forums or read Kotaku expos, they just want to play great games without getting shafted. Lootboxes are more of a problem than developers health. One directly effect the consumer, the other doesn't. Sorry, I sound callous, but facts are facts. It's down to Bioware to sort it's own house out, same as CD or Bethesda. If you want to do something about this by boycotting buying games from every game company, more power to you, but I think we all know your posting history and if DA4 was to come out tomorrow with an expo on the Bioware magic/crunch, you and others that we all know on here, will buy it. Too many on here talk about how it's wrong but will still buy the games and play them and defend them, but talk about how bad it is on developers. First world problems that shouldn't involve us as consumers. Yep, harsh, but at least I live in the RL. I agree with you, as consumers our first concern will always be and always should be the product that we purchase not the stories behind the manufacture of that purchase. Sure, we can be aware of bad practices such as kids being forced to work in deplorable sweat shop conditions when making our footware/clothing etc but they are the extreme end. When we hear about "terrible working conditions" in first world countries how much is subjective ie: "I don't like my job therefore the conditions are terrible" and how much is "I am being forced to work in terrible conditions", I would suggest hardly anyone in a developed country is forced to do anything that would fit the criteria, don't like the job, find another or lodge a complaint with the relevant authorities. On the flipside we have companies crying poor and "doing it tough" but why should that even register with us as consumers, we don't have access to the financials to confirm the data and have no control as individuals as to how the company is run. Banks are notorious for crying poor when upping fees and charges but still manage to post mega ridiculous profits. Why should we care as consumers, its like a renter going to their landlord and claiming that they cant pay the rent that month because times are tough, why should the landlord care? If the devs are finding it too tough they should look for employment elsewhere, its the best way of forcing change, not going to the public and claiming the job is too hard while still collecting their paycheck. As consumers our first priority has to be the product we purchase and whether we believe we got value for money, not the sob stories behind the purchase. To me its a gullibility thing, like believing a game company when they say they "listened to their customers", if that were in anyway true we would all be full Legendary with one shot inscriptions, be indestructible and have never ending content being released every day. To me what they are actually saying is we decided to put something in place based on our business plan and coincidentally someone or a few people asked for/mentioned it some time back. If conditions are as terrible as some make out then the best course of action would be the people working in those conditions leave, the more experienced workers wouldn't work there, the products being released would be sub standard so wont be purchased, the company either turns things around or goes bust, either way the problem is solved. But as consumers the only power we have to make change is through purchasing or not purchasing, but without first hand access to the real data/story our only concern should be the product. Oh, I see. Laissez faire, I'm alright Jack. It will sort itself out. Don't let those melodramatic stories get in the way of your consumerism! There is a reference here to what the UN would call relative vs absolute. The imposition of suffering cannot be explained away simply by saying other people have it worse. It's as idiotic as guilt tripping a child when they don't eat their dinner with ' there are starving children who would kill for that.' Someone doesn't have to be experiencing the nadir of the human condition in order to be highly stressed and therefore suffering. So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. At the risk of stating the obvious, not everyone is in a position financially or otherwise to do that. Where is your humanity? Yes we are in capitalist world but that isn't an excuse to turn a blind eye to any level of grief - the cause of much of it being the endless squeezing of margins for the largely circular quest for profit. However, I agree that the voting with ones wallet argument is sound but it is not your only option in showing distaste for a product or the method of its creation. There are places like this to share views and God help us there is a political system that is obliged (occasionally) to try and improve the lot of its people. We are not just consumers. We are people too. So is everyone else.
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Games: Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Haruchai01 on Apr 22, 2019 10:51:42 GMT
I agree with you, as consumers our first concern will always be and always should be the product that we purchase not the stories behind the manufacture of that purchase. Sure, we can be aware of bad practices such as kids being forced to work in deplorable sweat shop conditions when making our footware/clothing etc but they are the extreme end. When we hear about "terrible working conditions" in first world countries how much is subjective ie: "I don't like my job therefore the conditions are terrible" and how much is "I am being forced to work in terrible conditions", I would suggest hardly anyone in a developed country is forced to do anything that would fit the criteria, don't like the job, find another or lodge a complaint with the relevant authorities. On the flipside we have companies crying poor and "doing it tough" but why should that even register with us as consumers, we don't have access to the financials to confirm the data and have no control as individuals as to how the company is run. Banks are notorious for crying poor when upping fees and charges but still manage to post mega ridiculous profits. Why should we care as consumers, its like a renter going to their landlord and claiming that they cant pay the rent that month because times are tough, why should the landlord care? If the devs are finding it too tough they should look for employment elsewhere, its the best way of forcing change, not going to the public and claiming the job is too hard while still collecting their paycheck. As consumers our first priority has to be the product we purchase and whether we believe we got value for money, not the sob stories behind the purchase. To me its a gullibility thing, like believing a game company when they say they "listened to their customers", if that were in anyway true we would all be full Legendary with one shot inscriptions, be indestructible and have never ending content being released every day. To me what they are actually saying is we decided to put something in place based on our business plan and coincidentally someone or a few people asked for/mentioned it some time back. If conditions are as terrible as some make out then the best course of action would be the people working in those conditions leave, the more experienced workers wouldn't work there, the products being released would be sub standard so wont be purchased, the company either turns things around or goes bust, either way the problem is solved. But as consumers the only power we have to make change is through purchasing or not purchasing, but without first hand access to the real data/story our only concern should be the product. Oh, I see. Laissez faire, I'm alright Jack. It will sort itself out. Don't let those melodramatic stories get in the way of your consumerism! There is a reference here to what the UN would call relative vs absolute. The imposition of suffering cannot be explained away simply by saying other people have it worse. It's as idiotic as guilt tripping a child when they don't eat their dinner with ' there are starving children who would kill for that.' Someone doesn't have to be experiencing the nadir of the human condition in order to be highly stressed and therefore suffering. So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. At the risk of stating the obvious, not everyone is in a position financially or otherwise to do that. Where is your humanity? Yes we are in capitalist world but that isn't an excuse to turn a blind eye to any level of grief - the cause of much of it being the endless squeezing of margins for the largely circular quest for profit. However, I agree that the voting with ones wallet argument is sound but it is not your only option in showing distaste for a product or the method of its creation. There are places like this to share views and God help us there is a political system that is obliged (occasionally) to try and improve the lot of its people. We are not just consumers. We are people too. So is everyone else. Yes, you are people too, which makes you the wrong choice to go into bat for a disgruntled employee seeking to damage his current or former employer, how do you know, you have no way to determine the truth. You have no access to the truth only hearsay on what probably amounts to fourth or fifth hand, if that. The fact that you consider throwing on the white hat and riding into battle makes you, and people that think that way, the absolute worst choice for it. Too emotive, too little reason. The grief you imagine is only that, imagined, why would any employee in a first world country stay in a job as deplorable as you think it may be with access to workplace advocates and plenty of laws in place to cover such situations? Don't like capitalism, come up with a better system then get the majority to agree with you, I wish you luck but don't see you succeeding by any degree. Its noble that you see dragons to fight, imo the sensible ones see only windmills. We can throw conjecture around and you can virtue signal all you like, its only lip service or you wouldn't be typing about it you would be busy doing something about it, or at least trying to uncover the reality not the imagined. Sorry to tell you that unless you have authority, which I don't think you do, we are just consumers. If you have evidence of illegal workplace practices I would recommend lodging a formal complaint, if not feel free to imagine the worst, it doesn't make it real.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 22, 2019 11:29:05 GMT
I agree with you, as consumers our first concern will always be and always should be the product that we purchase not the stories behind the manufacture of that purchase. Sure, we can be aware of bad practices such as kids being forced to work in deplorable sweat shop conditions when making our footware/clothing etc but they are the extreme end. When we hear about "terrible working conditions" in first world countries how much is subjective ie: "I don't like my job therefore the conditions are terrible" and how much is "I am being forced to work in terrible conditions", I would suggest hardly anyone in a developed country is forced to do anything that would fit the criteria, don't like the job, find another or lodge a complaint with the relevant authorities. On the flipside we have companies crying poor and "doing it tough" but why should that even register with us as consumers, we don't have access to the financials to confirm the data and have no control as individuals as to how the company is run. Banks are notorious for crying poor when upping fees and charges but still manage to post mega ridiculous profits. Why should we care as consumers, its like a renter going to their landlord and claiming that they cant pay the rent that month because times are tough, why should the landlord care? If the devs are finding it too tough they should look for employment elsewhere, its the best way of forcing change, not going to the public and claiming the job is too hard while still collecting their paycheck. As consumers our first priority has to be the product we purchase and whether we believe we got value for money, not the sob stories behind the purchase. To me its a gullibility thing, like believing a game company when they say they "listened to their customers", if that were in anyway true we would all be full Legendary with one shot inscriptions, be indestructible and have never ending content being released every day. To me what they are actually saying is we decided to put something in place based on our business plan and coincidentally someone or a few people asked for/mentioned it some time back. If conditions are as terrible as some make out then the best course of action would be the people working in those conditions leave, the more experienced workers wouldn't work there, the products being released would be sub standard so wont be purchased, the company either turns things around or goes bust, either way the problem is solved. But as consumers the only power we have to make change is through purchasing or not purchasing, but without first hand access to the real data/story our only concern should be the product. Oh, I see. Laissez faire, I'm alright Jack. It will sort itself out. Don't let those melodramatic stories get in the way of your consumerism! There is a reference here to what the UN would call relative vs absolute. The imposition of suffering cannot be explained away simply by saying other people have it worse. It's as idiotic as guilt tripping a child when they don't eat their dinner with ' there are starving children who would kill for that.' Someone doesn't have to be experiencing the nadir of the human condition in order to be highly stressed and therefore suffering.So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. At the risk of stating the obvious, not everyone is in a position financially or otherwise to do that. Where is your humanity? Yes we are in capitalist world but that isn't an excuse to turn a blind eye to any level of grief - the cause of much of it being the endless squeezing of margins for the largely circular quest for profit. However, I agree that the voting with ones wallet argument is sound but it is not your only option in showing distaste for a product or the method of its creation. There are places like this to share views and God help us there is a political system that is obliged (occasionally) to try and improve the lot of its people. We are not just consumers. We are people too. So is everyone else. Can it be explained away by saying "being a game dev is a highly desirable and people work really hard to get a job in one of AAA studios despite being fully aware of working conditions"? Because I'm not convinced that game developers are a group that has it really hard, but I am pretty sure that the list of people that have it worse is really long.
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mgsmsc
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 54 Likes: 69
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 22, 2019 11:55:43 GMT
Oh, I see. Laissez faire, I'm alright Jack. It will sort itself out. Don't let those melodramatic stories get in the way of your consumerism! There is a reference here to what the UN would call relative vs absolute. The imposition of suffering cannot be explained away simply by saying other people have it worse. It's as idiotic as guilt tripping a child when they don't eat their dinner with ' there are starving children who would kill for that.' Someone doesn't have to be experiencing the nadir of the human condition in order to be highly stressed and therefore suffering. So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. At the risk of stating the obvious, not everyone is in a position financially or otherwise to do that. Where is your humanity? Yes we are in capitalist world but that isn't an excuse to turn a blind eye to any level of grief - the cause of much of it being the endless squeezing of margins for the largely circular quest for profit. However, I agree that the voting with ones wallet argument is sound but it is not your only option in showing distaste for a product or the method of its creation. There are places like this to share views and God help us there is a political system that is obliged (occasionally) to try and improve the lot of its people. We are not just consumers. We are people too. So is everyone else. Yes, you are people too, which makes you the wrong choice to go into bat for a disgruntled employee seeking to damage his current or former employer, how do you know, you have no way to determine the truth. You have no access to the truth only hearsay on what probably amounts to fourth or fifth hand, if that. The fact that you consider throwing on the white hat and riding into battle makes you, and people that think that way, the absolute worst choice for it. Too emotive, too little reason. The grief you imagine is only that, imagined, why would any employee in a first world country stay in a job as deplorable as you think it may be with access to workplace advocates and plenty of laws in place to cover such situations? Don't like capitalism, come up with a better system then get the majority to agree with you, I wish you luck but don't see you succeeding by any degree. Its noble that you see dragons to fight, imo the sensible ones see only windmills. We can throw conjecture around and you can virtue signal all you like, its only lip service or you wouldn't be typing about it you would be busy doing something about it, or at least trying to uncover the reality not the imagined. Sorry to tell you that unless you have authority, which I don't think you do, we are just consumers. If you have evidence of illegal workplace practices I would recommend lodging a formal complaint, if not feel free to imagine the worst, it doesn't make it real. My motivations may be emotional but that doesn't preclude rational thinking on my part. I like to think one enhances the other. I am quite aware it doesn't always come together quite how one would want! Knowledge of the truth cuts both ways and frankly I will advocate who I choose. Although it's beside the point as I name no specific group in my reply for the reason I was writing in general terms. I'm in the UK and there are notable examples of employees being treated poorly, if not illegally. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44354209www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36855374Whistle blowers are not thought of warmly by their industries. It is big step to publicly denounce an employer and often the end of the road in that regard for the person who speaks up. The advocacy of workers rights is variable across nations but not everyone has access to legal aid for cases like this. That puts an employee in an impossible situation as a low earner and a difficult one if challenging a well represented organisation. On the specifics of BioWare, you are right not to draw conclusions. That doesn't absolve me from taking allegations seriously and acting accordingly, especially when there is a good deal of smoke within the industry and a more than a few fires in others. I simply said that capitalism shouldn't diminish ones humanity. I'm not looking for a revolution, just a bit of responsibility to those in ones employ. I don't think it's much to ask. It may trim a percent or two from profits though. Together we stand, divided we fall. Do I have any authority - None! Do a group of people/consumers voting with wallets and voicing their concerns - Absolutely.
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mgsmsc
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 54 Likes: 69
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 22, 2019 12:04:29 GMT
Oh, I see. Laissez faire, I'm alright Jack. It will sort itself out. Don't let those melodramatic stories get in the way of your consumerism! There is a reference here to what the UN would call relative vs absolute. The imposition of suffering cannot be explained away simply by saying other people have it worse. It's as idiotic as guilt tripping a child when they don't eat their dinner with ' there are starving children who would kill for that.' Someone doesn't have to be experiencing the nadir of the human condition in order to be highly stressed and therefore suffering.So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. At the risk of stating the obvious, not everyone is in a position financially or otherwise to do that. Where is your humanity? Yes we are in capitalist world but that isn't an excuse to turn a blind eye to any level of grief - the cause of much of it being the endless squeezing of margins for the largely circular quest for profit. However, I agree that the voting with ones wallet argument is sound but it is not your only option in showing distaste for a product or the method of its creation. There are places like this to share views and God help us there is a political system that is obliged (occasionally) to try and improve the lot of its people. We are not just consumers. We are people too. So is everyone else. Can it be explained away by saying "being a game dev is a highly desirable and people work really hard to get a job in one of AAA studios despite being fully aware of working conditions"? Because I'm not convinced that game developers are a group that has it really hard, but I am pretty sure that the list of people that have it worse is really long. I couldn't agree more. Would this particular storm in teacup make a top hundred of things that I would fix if I could? Probably not but that doesn't mean that the people who spoke out should be ignored. It doesn't mean things that are largely good can't be improved. As I said the 'other people have it worse' line is all well and good but is rather cold comfort when you are crying in your cereal every morning. Workplace culture and mental health are things worth trying to improve and I hope Bioware can that.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 22, 2019 12:43:20 GMT
There's business culture and then there's the nature of the business you're in. One can be changed, and one can't. For my job. if it's month end closing/balancing, budget time, or quarterly end numbers time, we're going to be eating breakfast, lunch, dinner in the office, and then when we do go home, getting on calls with offices in other time zones.
It's not the hours that cause the stress, it's the deadlines. This may sound harsh, but if you work in a field that has hard deadlines, and you can't handle the stress of those hard deadlines, then you need to seek employment elsewhere. Because the hard deadlines are not going to change. That is the nature of your business.
If they're constantly yelling at people, berating them for falling behind, and just otherwise creating hostile work conditions, or poor work conditions, that's the culture of your business, and that can be changed.
But in the case of these Bioware employees, it just sounds like the stress of the project and its deadlines got to them, and that is probably the same in any studio. You can't change these things.
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Post by solomace on Apr 22, 2019 13:58:37 GMT
I agree with you, as consumers our first concern will always be and always should be the product that we purchase not the stories behind the manufacture of that purchase. Sure, we can be aware of bad practices such as kids being forced to work in deplorable sweat shop conditions when making our footware/clothing etc but they are the extreme end. When we hear about "terrible working conditions" in first world countries how much is subjective ie: "I don't like my job therefore the conditions are terrible" and how much is "I am being forced to work in terrible conditions", I would suggest hardly anyone in a developed country is forced to do anything that would fit the criteria, don't like the job, find another or lodge a complaint with the relevant authorities. On the flipside we have companies crying poor and "doing it tough" but why should that even register with us as consumers, we don't have access to the financials to confirm the data and have no control as individuals as to how the company is run. Banks are notorious for crying poor when upping fees and charges but still manage to post mega ridiculous profits. Why should we care as consumers, its like a renter going to their landlord and claiming that they cant pay the rent that month because times are tough, why should the landlord care? If the devs are finding it too tough they should look for employment elsewhere, its the best way of forcing change, not going to the public and claiming the job is too hard while still collecting their paycheck. As consumers our first priority has to be the product we purchase and whether we believe we got value for money, not the sob stories behind the purchase. To me its a gullibility thing, like believing a game company when they say they "listened to their customers", if that were in anyway true we would all be full Legendary with one shot inscriptions, be indestructible and have never ending content being released every day. To me what they are actually saying is we decided to put something in place based on our business plan and coincidentally someone or a few people asked for/mentioned it some time back. If conditions are as terrible as some make out then the best course of action would be the people working in those conditions leave, the more experienced workers wouldn't work there, the products being released would be sub standard so wont be purchased, the company either turns things around or goes bust, either way the problem is solved. But as consumers the only power we have to make change is through purchasing or not purchasing, but without first hand access to the real data/story our only concern should be the product. Oh, I see. Laissez faire, I'm alright Jack. It will sort itself out. Don't let those melodramatic stories get in the way of your consumerism! There is a reference here to what the UN would call relative vs absolute. The imposition of suffering cannot be explained away simply by saying other people have it worse. It's as idiotic as guilt tripping a child when they don't eat their dinner with ' there are starving children who would kill for that.' Someone doesn't have to be experiencing the nadir of the human condition in order to be highly stressed and therefore suffering. So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. At the risk of stating the obvious, not everyone is in a position financially or otherwise to do that. Where is your humanity? Yes we are in capitalist world but that isn't an excuse to turn a blind eye to any level of grief - the cause of much of it being the endless squeezing of margins for the largely circular quest for profit. However, I agree that the voting with ones wallet argument is sound but it is not your only option in showing distaste for a product or the method of its creation. There are places like this to share views and God help us there is a political system that is obliged (occasionally) to try and improve the lot of its people. We are not just consumers. We are people too. So is everyone else. Jesus. Grow up.
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Post by masterwarderz on Apr 22, 2019 15:46:47 GMT
Which would mean they didn't stick to their schedule and you were flat out wrong. No Yes? You don't speak my intent for me Sofa. You defend this schlock at your peril, at least own your mistakes when you defend the wrong lame horse. Then again...if those rumors I have heard with your being on the twitter speaking for everyone on this forum in their "enjoyment", perhaps you are just simply that arrogant.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 22, 2019 15:49:12 GMT
Yes? You don't speak my intent for me Sofa. You defend this schlock at your peril, at least own your mistakes when you defend the wrong lame horse. Then again...if those rumors I have heard with your being on the twitter speaking for everyone on this forum in their "enjoyment", perhaps you are just simply that arrogant. I'm uninterested in your garbage theories, I'll reply to them no further.* *Aside of any removal of posts for derailment and bad faith.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 22, 2019 15:49:30 GMT
I wonder how many people here care at all about the poor Foxconn children forced to make all your Smartphones? I wonder how many people here rant and rave about how deplorable and unnacceptable it is, possibly while typing said msg from their smartphone? I would bet no one. Not one person.
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Post by masterwarderz on Apr 22, 2019 15:52:18 GMT
I agree with you, as consumers our first concern will always be and always should be the product that we purchase not the stories behind the manufacture of that purchase. Sure, we can be aware of bad practices such as kids being forced to work in deplorable sweat shop conditions when making our footware/clothing etc but they are the extreme end. When we hear about "terrible working conditions" in first world countries how much is subjective ie: "I don't like my job therefore the conditions are terrible" and how much is "I am being forced to work in terrible conditions", I would suggest hardly anyone in a developed country is forced to do anything that would fit the criteria, don't like the job, find another or lodge a complaint with the relevant authorities. On the flipside we have companies crying poor and "doing it tough" but why should that even register with us as consumers, we don't have access to the financials to confirm the data and have no control as individuals as to how the company is run. Banks are notorious for crying poor when upping fees and charges but still manage to post mega ridiculous profits. Why should we care as consumers, its like a renter going to their landlord and claiming that they cant pay the rent that month because times are tough, why should the landlord care? If the devs are finding it too tough they should look for employment elsewhere, its the best way of forcing change, not going to the public and claiming the job is too hard while still collecting their paycheck. As consumers our first priority has to be the product we purchase and whether we believe we got value for money, not the sob stories behind the purchase. To me its a gullibility thing, like believing a game company when they say they "listened to their customers", if that were in anyway true we would all be full Legendary with one shot inscriptions, be indestructible and have never ending content being released every day. To me what they are actually saying is we decided to put something in place based on our business plan and coincidentally someone or a few people asked for/mentioned it some time back. If conditions are as terrible as some make out then the best course of action would be the people working in those conditions leave, the more experienced workers wouldn't work there, the products being released would be sub standard so wont be purchased, the company either turns things around or goes bust, either way the problem is solved. But as consumers the only power we have to make change is through purchasing or not purchasing, but without first hand access to the real data/story our only concern should be the product. So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. Yes, yes it is, they picked their field, they picked their company and they can rightfully get the fuck over it like any adult. Everyone has their own issues keeping the lights on, they own do not warrant any special attention just because they make video games. I mean Christ you are complaining about first world IT work as if its backbreaking labor, oh boohoo they occasionally have a 20 hour work day, great, I had plenty of those back in the Army, they still got paid didn't they? I mean honestly, if these conditions were deal breakers, people would leave, its that simple. I mean if they don't like their place of work as you yourself said- They can fucking leave, this isn't my problem and their shitty products haven't earned a dime off me in years due to them being shoddy. I think they should focus on their shoddy products being shoddy tbh.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 22, 2019 16:35:27 GMT
IIRC Shreier's article, most of devs he talked with were former Bioware empoyees, so they changed jobs. I still think that they had a "management made a ton of stupid decisions that caused years of ineffective work and later we had to crunch like mad to make up for it while already being disillusioned about quality of the game we were making" rather that "working long hours is bad".
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Post by shinobiwan on Apr 22, 2019 17:02:20 GMT
So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. Uhh, what the hell? We aren't talking about an Indonesian sweatshop or even a local pipefitters union. These are people with among the most highly transferable skills in existence. The reality for most professional careers is that you almost never can have the trifecta of good hours, good pay, and fulfilling work. While it's shitty how badly managed Bioware is, the devs were likely aware of the conditions in the industry when they chose the path they did. And if they somehow weren't, they're among the best situated to move relatively easily, as their skills are always in demand. Other professions are not so fortunate.
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 22, 2019 17:39:23 GMT
So they should stop whining and work somewhere else? Easy for you to say. That isn't always an option. Uhh, what the hell? We aren't talking about an Indonesian sweatshop or even a local pipefitters union. These are people with among the most highly transferable skills in existence. The reality for most professional careers is that you almost never can have the trifecta of good hours, good pay, and fulfilling work. While it's shitty how badly managed Bioware is, the devs were likely aware of the conditions in the industry when they chose the path they did. And if they somehow weren't, they're among the best situated to move relatively easily, as their skills are always in demand. Other professions are not so fortunate. I would stress that I am in no way comparing a relative situation to an absolute - such as a sweat shop or any other horrendous example of employment. I have a degree of empathy for anyone who ends up with anxiety and depression whether it be work related or not. On moving, I totally get these are educated and qualified people who can consider a move but it's not always that straight forward. People's families, financial commitments and the like can't always be transplanted easily. I'm not expecting work for the vast majority to be some kind of rose garden. Hard graft is a given in whatever walk of life you're in and no doubt a thicker skin comes in handy. That said when mental health issues arise like this and are linked to a workplace culture, I hope it can be a force for positive change.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 22, 2019 18:33:26 GMT
I'm removing your derailing crap too, so stop that right now.
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Post by Haruchai01 on Apr 23, 2019 0:39:05 GMT
Uhh, what the hell? We aren't talking about an Indonesian sweatshop or even a local pipefitters union. These are people with among the most highly transferable skills in existence. The reality for most professional careers is that you almost never can have the trifecta of good hours, good pay, and fulfilling work. While it's shitty how badly managed Bioware is, the devs were likely aware of the conditions in the industry when they chose the path they did. And if they somehow weren't, they're among the best situated to move relatively easily, as their skills are always in demand. Other professions are not so fortunate. I would stress that I am in no way comparing a relative situation to an absolute - such as a sweat shop or any other horrendous example of employment. I have a degree of empathy for anyone who ends up with anxiety and depression whether it be work related or not. On moving, I totally get these are educated and qualified people who can consider a move but it's not always that straight forward. People's families, financial commitments and the like can't always be transplanted easily. I'm not expecting work for the vast majority to be some kind of rose garden. Hard graft is a given in whatever walk of life you're in and no doubt a thicker skin comes in handy. That said when mental health issues arise like this and are linked to a workplace culture, I hope it can be a force for positive change. I would assume that I am not the only one that sees the irony in that, as someone else stated most of the employees were former Bioware employees and that they changed jobs. I would also assume, as I am not based in the US so am not familiar with workplace laws there, that if you had advice from a Doctor that you needed reduced hours or a less stressful workload due to medical issues, that employees could rightfully demand those things for occupational safety and wellbeing reasons. Sometimes it just boils down to if you aren't suitable for the job or cannot cope with it, the best option is to find other employment. There are better ways to seek change than telling a sob story in the public arena after you have already left the job and if other employees currently working in the same environment are doing ok, I would suggest the employer is not where the blame should lie. Its easy to get emotive after reading anecdotes and then grab a rope, look for a tree branch, and gather together a lynch mob, it was never the best way in the past, it still isn't imo. As I often tell my daughter, there is a reason we have a heart and a brain, its never best practice to think too much with one and ignore the other.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 23, 2019 19:49:14 GMT
To be practical and fair about it, 'redemption' is going to take a bit longer isn't it. www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/bgkgl3/update_on_anthem_from_the_development_team/Whilst 'owning' that the roadmap has slipped is a helpful piece of honesty, it's disappointing to have this news dragged out in the final days of April. I'll continue to play and enjoy the game as content permits, but I can certainly empathise with those who may be less sympathetic about almost the entire April roadmap being 'in limbo'.
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Post by Haruchai01 on Apr 23, 2019 21:35:37 GMT
To be practical and fair about it, 'redemption' is going to take a bit longer isn't it. www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/bgkgl3/update_on_anthem_from_the_development_team/Whilst 'owning' that the roadmap has slipped is a helpful piece of honesty, it's disappointing to have this news dragged out in the final days of April. I'll continue to play and enjoy the game as content permits, but I can certainly empathise with those who may be less sympathetic about almost the entire April roadmap being 'in limbo'. Firstly, I don't know that you can call it honesty when you make the announcement as the Patch drops and everyone can see it for themselves, to me honesty would have been advising players beforehand, its like the bank robber admitting he's robbing the bank as he gets caught coming out of the vault carrying a couple of bags of cash. It kind of adds credibility to those that believed the Livestream was deliberately pushed back and not due to an accident, I personally don't care about the Livestream as I don't get into them but I have to see that it works for the conspiracy theorists and it tastes a bit like the old adage "its not paranoia if..." etc. Next, at this point redemption is running away at a rate of knots imo. I cant help but get an image of a company with a gun against their heads frantically pulling the trigger except now they have noticed they haven't turned the safety off. I think this patch will work against them not for them. The "access the forge anywhere" is a bad idea imo, I understand some will see it as good, I do a lot of Freeplay and can see it being good there but only to allow me more time to grind while not getting any worthwhile loot before returning to Fort Tarsis. I have no doubt before too long we will start getting the complaints of players delaying SH's by spending too much time mucking around with the forge and on the flipside players complaining they keep getting tethered while trying to use the forge, I haven't tried it but I assume they will be interrupted during access if tethered, I am happy to admit I'm wrong about this if its not so. To me its a desperation move that will come back to bite them but I guess we will see and I'm happy to go with the flow. Apparently there are a string of bugs occurring due to the patch as well, this will only frustrate already disgruntled players, where is the testing, why aren't they catching these or at least the simpler ones like display bugs etc? I certainly hope the damage values on weapons and the armour/shield values on components is a bug or life will get pretty interesting in Anthem and we will all be using epics shortly to at least try and survive. Now to the point that is probably the most idiotic, incompetent thing, I have ever seen done in any game and its on the back of an already incompetent thing done in the last patch imo. "Players who prime targets for combos will now also see the “Combo” text when detonated by another player"., so now in a game where combos are king and are needed to heal, buff damage etc, I get a combo floater when I don't get the benefit of the combo, I just tested it and I was doing an event with an Interceptor and not only do we have to put up with the ridiculous change to Interceptors last patch but now the combo indicator is now going off when they detonate our primed targets over and over effectively monopolising the combos and we now are advised by a floaty telling us a combo happened and it wasn't ours, yth would we want to know a combo occurred when we don't benefit from it? We already get the meaningless ka ching, ka ching from their continuous melee combos but now to rub salt into the wound we get a visual notification that a target we primed has resulted in a combo for the Interceptors. Don't get me wrong I don't mind having targets detonated by other Javelins after I have primed them, and me detonating targets after they have primed them as its usually give and take except with Interceptors where its take, take, take imo. They are now the Javelins that no one wants in the group, I will not rez them and I certainly don't want them following me around in Freeplay and I will respawn to get away from them as they usually follow others around to take the opportunity to detonate everything you prime and they are making fights/bosses last longer, the change in the last patch was silly imo, this one is just idiotic. I personally believe it is a deceitful thing to make players believe they have completed a combo when they actually haven't. At this point I have to say Bioware seem deserving of any bad press they get now, they've definitely earned it. Given the state of things and Bioware's seeming reluctance to actually want to make things better and stupid decisions on their behalf I honestly don't think I will be in the game for much longer. <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_10011290" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: -5px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_40715675" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1122px; top: -5px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21036476" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 211px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_42661603" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1122px; top: 211px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_19986473" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: -5px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_95452778" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1122px; top: -5px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_67229755" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 211px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="5.42000000000002" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21053340" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1122px; top: 211px; width: 23.64px; height: 5.42px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe>
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N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 24, 2019 8:01:46 GMT
I'm trying to wrap my head around it but it's not working. Just why would you not want an interceptor in your team?
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Post by Superhik on Apr 24, 2019 14:50:09 GMT
Anthem needs it's own anthem. Imagine every time starts cataclysm, this starts playing from the sky!
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Walkin' shoes walkin' back into BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: legbamel
XBL Gamertag: Legbamel
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Post by legbamel on Apr 24, 2019 20:02:18 GMT
I'm trying to wrap my head around it but it's not working. Just why would you not want an interceptor in your team? Because they're filthy kill-stealers. Colossus, too for that matter. Hubs plays both and routinely wipes out a crowd I just locked down as I'm firing my AOE for the sweet multi-kill.
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N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 25, 2019 6:37:53 GMT
I'm trying to wrap my head around it but it's not working. Just why would you not want an interceptor in your team? Because they're filthy kill-stealers. Colossus, too for that matter. Hubs plays both and routinely wipes out a crowd I just locked down as I'm firing my AOE for the sweet multi-kill. Tssk, Stronger together remember? In the end though it's merely a couple of hundred XP one way or another which in the end game is mostly irrelevant. Kiling mobs on the other hand...the more the group kills the higher the chance for a leggo drop, for all of us. So being a Ranger main I don't really mind if some other lancer does the dirty work for me. As long as I get the loooooooooooooooooot.
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Post by Haruchai01 on Apr 25, 2019 8:23:05 GMT
Because they're filthy kill-stealers. Colossus, too for that matter. Hubs plays both and routinely wipes out a crowd I just locked down as I'm firing my AOE for the sweet multi-kill. Tssk, Stronger together remember? In the end though it's merely a couple of hundred XP one way or another which in the end game is mostly irrelevant. Kiling mobs on the other hand...the more the group kills the higher the chance for a leggo drop, for all of us. So being a Ranger main I don't really mind if some other lancer does the dirty work for me. As long as I get the loooooooooooooooooot. So you are advocating Rangers playing support for Interceptors? Where is the "Stronger Together" if as a Ranger you are unable to complete combos and heal yourself and the rest of your team or buff your dmg, that's just the Rangers (I main a Ranger as well), now take into consideration the loss of dmg increases and heals from the rest of the Javelins, or a fight takes a lot longer because the Interceptor is monopolising the combos and the others in the group can only contribute via guns and base damage from abilities? Frankly the group is a lot stronger without Interceptors or at least with one that has a group mentality, but we are talking about video games so they are as rare as rocking horse manure. Good luck with the loooooooot btw, maybe sometime in the next 6 months you may get something worthwhile getting.
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