inherit
1033
0
31,065
colfoley
16,485
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Apr 13, 2019 23:17:59 GMT
"... exploring ways to push BioWare’s storytelling to the next level."
Here is the clue, for me. Darrah is telling us the traditional storytelling way is gone. Enter Something like Anthem's
"... continue BioWare’s rich legacy of colorful companions, romance and epic choices ..." Another clue from Goldman, this time. Epic choices? Name some epic ones. I can't remember any. And continue does not mean delivery of said richness. This I learned from Bio's past marketing crapola. Of course, one can choose to take his words at face value.... really?
Given what Bio has said vs delivered in the past and Anthem a very recent memory, I take what Bio says with quite a few grains of Kosher Salt. No sense in getting disappointed again.
Pessismism is one thing but what do you really expect them to say? Dear loyal and potential new customers, we are excited to announce the Dread Wolf Rises, a game that we have already been working on for some amount of time. With this game we will endeavor to tell the story you have come to expect from BioWare, just with a new coat of paint. Our team is perfectly adequate to this task... I mean sure its marketing speak but A. they really can't do anything but that, especially this early in production. B. If they did give that people would probably be complaining and go 'aww schucks what does it mean? do they mean the same crappy story we got from Anddromeda? Gee I think based on their recent projects we should expect a mediocre story so I'm not going to set myself up for dissapointment.' Besides BioWare has always tried to inovate and experiment and not sit on their laurels. One of the things I like about the company.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,067
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 14, 2019 5:57:01 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people.
|
|
wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,629 Likes: 2,468
inherit
1492
0
Feb 14, 2024 21:33:25 GMT
2,468
wright1978
1,629
Sept 8, 2016 12:06:29 GMT
September 2016
wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
8,116
2073
|
Post by wright1978 on Apr 14, 2019 8:08:09 GMT
While clearly it’s marketing guff i’d have liked him to at least mention the word rpg
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Apr 14, 2019 8:40:55 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. I'm not sure if I should be more worried about the possibility that they're deceiving the public (a completely unheard-of business practice I'm sure) or that they believe their own marketing-speak.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,067
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 14, 2019 9:29:54 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. I'm not sure if I should be more worried about the possibility that they're deceiving the public (a completely unheard-of business practice I'm sure) or that they believe their own marketing-speak. Even Schreier's article states that the people working on Anthem strongly believed it would come together at the end. Creative endeavour requires faith that the final product will have been worth the time and effort. That's precisely how these studios convince employees to work in such terrible, unethical conditions. It's not one or the other. It's one of those complex, nuanced situations that everybody here thinks should be present in fiction, but that they can never perceive in real life for some reason.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Apr 14, 2019 9:48:58 GMT
I'm not sure if I should be more worried about the possibility that they're deceiving the public (a completely unheard-of business practice I'm sure) or that they believe their own marketing-speak. Even Schreier's article states that the people working on Anthem strongly believed it would come together at the end. Creative endeavour requires faith that the final product will have been worth the time and effort. That's precisely how these studios convince employees to work in such terrible, unethical conditions. It's not one or the other. It's one of those complex, nuanced situations that everybody here thinks should be present in fiction, but that they can never perceive in real life for some reason. From our past exchanges on this forum, I suspect the mage vs. templars situation comes across as significantly more complex to me than it comes across to you.
As for the RL situation of Bioware and its next creation, I *could've* phrased it in way that explicitly acknowledges your point: The questions here are these: to which degree does Bioware believe in the possible success of a creation we don't believe can succeed? To which degree are they deceiving the public? And what's the reality of their planned creation being able to succeed and what would that mean for those of us who don't like the whole direction? Assuming that we can infer anything significant about the direction they actually want to take from their statements, regardless of whether they're meant honestly or not.
In other words, take my earlier statement as emphasizing the salient points in a situation of the complexity of which I am quite aware.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Apr 14, 2019 11:51:21 GMT
I'm not sure if I should be more worried about the possibility that they're deceiving the public (a completely unheard-of business practice I'm sure) or that they believe their own marketing-speak. Even Schreier's article states that the people working on Anthem strongly believed it would come together at the end. Creative endeavour requires faith that the final product will have been worth the time and effort. That's precisely how these studios convince employees to work in such terrible, unethical conditions. It's not one or the other. It's one of those complex, nuanced situations that everybody here thinks should be present in fiction, but that they can never perceive in real life for some reason. ^this And we should keep in mind that after the article (though it wasn't a big secret before it) a lot of devs came out of the woodwork to mention that the situation is hardly different in other studios and has in fact seems to have been a problem for a while. I've recently watched a small docu video about the franchise I like - Prince of Persia. Check out this excerpt about 2003 'POP: Sands Of Time": ...Sounds familiar? A harrowing dash to the finish, in this case has ended with success, so we only hear it mostly as background noise not much is made of, or 'whoa, it was worth it at the end'. We heard similar stories with older BW titles, with Witcher 3, The Last Of Us, RDD2.... I think it's safe to say that, even if people are cognizant of problems, during crunching they get into a mindset where perspective on the title is secondary to just getting to the finish and hoping for the best, because there's simply not much space for anything else. That of course doesn't mean that they simply don't believe in the project or that things will look much better in the end. We know that there's not insubstantial number of people loving the core gamplay of Anthem and liking the in its current state, warts and all. And we do live in a gaming era where further refinement/substantial improvements is entirely possible with enough love and care poured into the living project.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,490
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,490
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Apr 14, 2019 12:15:15 GMT
I'm not sure if I should be more worried about the possibility that they're deceiving the public (a completely unheard-of business practice I'm sure) or that they believe their own marketing-speak. Even Schreier's article states that the people working on Anthem strongly believed it would come together at the end. Creative endeavour requires faith that the final product will have been worth the time and effort. That's precisely how these studios convince employees to work in such terrible, unethical conditions. It's not one or the other. It's one of those complex, nuanced situations that everybody here thinks should be present in fiction, but that they can never perceive in real life for some reason. True, except for the silly and presumptuous attempt at a burn at the end of your comment, as with so many of them. Confusing too. Haven't your arguments so far been assuming that those sorts of situations don't really exist, which is why they shouldn't be reflected in games? If you recognize that dilemmas like these crop up and need to be dealt with in RL, but feel that featuring them as such in RPGs is somehow harmful and encouraging hatred... how does that not confirm that you want the games to turn into political indoctrination simulations? Besides, another factor that you clearly haven't brought yourself to acknowledge is that the world really is full of people who can't stand living day-to-day if they aren't putting every spare minute of their time and joule of energy in their bodies towards some huge project. People who spend every hour not actively at work actively preparing for work. The people who you think of as "robber barons", for example, and as having coasted on being "straight white cis males", are mostly just those people whose natural dedication and insane work thresholds have totally outcompeted the average worker, allowing them to reach the top of or build their own companies and make huge successes of them way beyond most average people's comprehension. Usually at the expense of their personal lives, obviously, but not through anyone's coercion or pressure from anywhere but their own workaholic natures, as you'll realize if you ever manage to speak to, or work for or with, such a person. And a fair number of them perform so much and so effectively that their influence allows society to change for the better. Gargantuan contributions to national treasuries at least, and occasional efforts that allow the world to change. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk being examples everyone is probably aware of. People even a little bit like that inspire others, who aren't naturally inclined to workaholism, to try to compete with their workload and demolish themselves in the process. Again, not through any kind of coercion, simply through different people with different expectations for what amount of work is too much work having to work together in circumstances where their efforts are directly compared, making one feel inadequate if they don't push themselves to match the crazy workhorse in the other room. I've certainly made that mistake and had to learn from it. Not saying that no unethical worker exploitation has taken place in Bioware, but I'm a bit skeptical that it's as bad or widespread as a reporter makes it out. It's in the nature of journalism to take extreme examples from the ends of every conceivable curve or spectrum and putting them forwards as simply being examples, and some grown men and women overworking themselves for a few months or years and dealing with the consequences while potentially also reaping the rewards isn't the sort of tragedy that demands we stop everything until a suitably harmless solution is found in my opinion.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,067
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 14, 2019 12:20:41 GMT
Hahahaha, not fucking reading that!
|
|
inherit
4406
0
601
duskwanderer
Awesome
1,011
Mar 12, 2017 22:45:38 GMT
March 2017
duskwanderer
|
Post by duskwanderer on Apr 14, 2019 12:26:01 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. Sure they do. They will if they think it will make them money. Licensed products that aren't GoldenEye 1997 are a great example.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,067
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 14, 2019 12:48:24 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. Sure they do. They will if they think it will make them money. Licensed products that aren't GoldenEye 1997 are a great example. Putting out a bad product to make money now damages the relationship with the consumer base, and means less money LATER. Companies certainly understand that, if you do. Releasing a product you don't think people will like is an extremely bad idea for any genuine company with ambitions of long-term success. That's Business 101.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,490
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,490
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Apr 14, 2019 13:13:35 GMT
Sure they do. They will if they think it will make them money. Licensed products that aren't GoldenEye 1997 are a great example. Putting out a bad product to make money now damages the relationship with the consumer base, and means less money LATER. Companies certainly understand that, if you do. Releasing a product you don't think people will like is an extremely bad idea for any genuine company with ambitions of long-term success. That's Business 101. Again, more or less true. It's not unheard of for companies with very low long-term prospects to try to make a last-ditch cash-grab with whatever influence and resources they have left. Cashing out, as it were. Bioware don't appear to see themselves in that situation, but it wouldn't be wholly out of the question either. Hahahaha, not fucking reading that! Not everything in the world is entirely for your benefit, silly.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,073
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,791
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2019 15:35:29 GMT
Again, more or less true. It's not unheard of for companies with very low long-term prospects to try to make a last-ditch cash-grab with whatever influence and resources they have left. Cashing out, as it were. Bioware don't appear to see themselves in that situation, but it wouldn't be wholly out of the question either. Even if the company is doing well,some products or brands can be treated that way, yep. When I worked in subscription-based academic publishing, our term was "harvest mode;" an unsustainable product would have its marketing cancelled and the remaining subscriber base milked for a couple more years, until the ROI on even bare-bones updates went below whatever our target was. Unlikely to apply to Bio unless EA's writing off the entire CRPG genre.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2019 16:44:45 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. Well, they aren't mutually exclusive, but I agree that too much has been attributed to deliberate deception that could be more easily explained by too much belief in their own positive spin. At least, the people we get to hear from seem to believe the party line, or the value of sticking to the party line while being deaf and clueless about what players actually want. It's clear from the Anthem article that amongst the rank and file devs, many of the same criticisms the players have of the game were raised to leadership, and ignored.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2019 16:51:09 GMT
Even Schreier's article states that the people working on Anthem strongly believed it would come together at the end. Creative endeavour requires faith that the final product will have been worth the time and effort. That's precisely how these studios convince employees to work in such terrible, unethical conditions. It's not one or the other. It's one of those complex, nuanced situations that everybody here thinks should be present in fiction, but that they can never perceive in real life for some reason. True, except for the silly and presumptuous attempt at a burn at the end of your comment, as with so many of them. Confusing too. That reads as a burn to you? I thought it was an extremely accurate insight. I think a little sarcasm goes down easier when it's got a nugget of truth at the center. I wouldn't say it's true for everyone here, though. I've read some pretty black/white, good/evil, heroic flaws are for sissies, type attitudes here. Some people find real life too nuanced and shades of gray and escape into simpler morality in games.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2019 16:59:56 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. Sure they do. They will if they think it will make them money. Licensed products that aren't GoldenEye 1997 are a great example. I'd say it's not that they know everyone will hate it, it's that they don't give a shit either way, as long some some suckers buy it. That's an important difference. The flood of cookie-cutter kids videos on YouTube, like the hundreds of Surprise Egg and Finger Family Song variants, is an example of this. It's absolutely deliberate exploitation, but do they know kids or parents are going to hate any particular one? No. In fact, they need to fly under the reporting radar so as not to rock the ad revenue boat.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,181
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,570
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Apr 14, 2019 17:03:21 GMT
No company deliberately puts out a product that they think people are going to hate, that's just not good business. It's not impossible that the people working at BioWare might actually believe the things they are saying, rather than deliberately try to deceive people. Well, they aren't mutually exclusive, but I agree that too much has been attributed to deliberate deception that could be more easily explained by too much belief in their own positive spin. At least, the people we get to hear from seem to believe the party line, or the value of sticking to the party line while being deaf and clueless about what players actually want. It's clear from the Anthem article that amongst the rank and file devs, many of the same criticisms the players have of the game were raised to leadership, and ignored. Comments like this make me question if I should give anthem a shot when they release their next chunk of story in may. I mean, it is just Andromeda level bad? I played Andromeda once, may even get a 2nd play out of it, so I can handle that level of "bad". And why were they ignoring them? did they think that with the live service built in they could patch their way out of a bad spot?
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,490
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,490
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Apr 14, 2019 17:05:52 GMT
True, except for the silly and presumptuous attempt at a burn at the end of your comment, as with so many of them. Confusing too. That reads as a burn to you? I thought it was an extremely accurate insight. I think a little sarcasm goes down easier when it's got a nugget of truth at the center. I wouldn't say it's true for everyone here, though. I've read some pretty black/white, good/evil, heroic flaws are for sissies, type attitudes here. Some people find real life too nuanced and shades of gray and escape into simpler morality in games. The idea that "everybody here" wants fiction to contain nuanced and complex dilemmas but can't see them in real life strikes you as extremely accurate and not an attempt at a burn? The implication being that people who advocate complex storytelling here are necessarily one-track-minded hypocrites in real life? Can you explain that more in-depth, or am I reading you wrong? I really don't see the "nugget of truth" you're getting at in this context.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2019 17:10:12 GMT
Well, they aren't mutually exclusive, but I agree that too much has been attributed to deliberate deception that could be more easily explained by too much belief in their own positive spin. At least, the people we get to hear from seem to believe the party line, or the value of sticking to the party line while being deaf and clueless about what players actually want. It's clear from the Anthem article that amongst the rank and file devs, many of the same criticisms the players have of the game were raised to leadership, and ignored. Comments like this make me question if I should give anthem a shot when they release their next chunk of story in may. I mean, it is just Andromeda level bad? I played Andromeda once, may even get a 2nd play out of it, so I can handle that level of "bad". And why were they ignoring them? did they think that with the live service built in they could patch their way out of a bad spot? You should read the whole article, particularly since there's quite a lot about the problems at Bioware as a whole that will have an impact on DA4, as it is about problems with Anthem specifically. But the quick answer is that they were ignored because leadership either thought it was too late to fix it -- some fixes would require months of rework -- or they simply didn't believe it was going to be a problem, like the lack of a social hub where people could see each other's suits. And yes, they did put a lot of faith in the ability of the live service to patch their way out. So far, that hasn't proven to be true. Every patch introduces new and sometimes worse problems. bsn.boards.net/thread/17491/kotaku-biowares-anthem-went-wrong
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,073
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,791
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2019 17:16:35 GMT
@ phoray: Depends. How much do you like the genre?
Anthem's actually similar to Andromeda in a couple of respects. The basic combat mechanics seem to be fine, but the looting and levelling don't work well.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Member is Online
24,146
themikefest
14,765
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Apr 14, 2019 17:19:00 GMT
Comments like this make me question if I should give anthem a shot when they release their next chunk of story in may. I've been thinking about getting Anthem once the price drops, but when I looked in playstation store, one of the requirements to play the game is to be a playstation plus member. I am not a member. I know Bioware has no control over that. I just have no reason to pay for a membership to play a game that I may end up not playing much and/or not liking
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,181
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,570
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Apr 14, 2019 17:20:24 GMT
. And yes, they did put a lot of faith in the ability of the live service to patch their way out. So far, that hasn't proven to be true. Every patch introduces new and sometimes worse problems. I will read the article, but this here is alarming. They've rebooted Dragon Age to have the same core as Anthem so they can similarly patch their way out of problems after release, but now you're telling me that it doesn't even work IN Anthem?
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2019 17:22:17 GMT
That reads as a burn to you? I thought it was an extremely accurate insight. I think a little sarcasm goes down easier when it's got a nugget of truth at the center. I wouldn't say it's true for everyone here, though. I've read some pretty black/white, good/evil, heroic flaws are for sissies, type attitudes here. Some people find real life too nuanced and shades of gray and escape into simpler morality in games. The idea that "everybody here" wants fiction to contain nuanced and complex dilemmas but can't see them in real life strikes you as extremely accurate and not an attempt at a burn? The implication being that people who advocate complex storytelling here are necessarily one-track-minded hypocrites in real life? Can you explain that more in-depth, or am I reading you wrong? I really don't see the "nugget of truth" you're getting at in this context. Ah, I see. Your explanation of the implication helps me understand your reaction. I just wouldn't put it in such a judgy way. Also, I see it more as an awareness issue than one of hypocrisy. I'll be the first to admit I have exactly the blind spot Panda was talking about. I do insist that my game narratives be richly layered, nuanced, and complex, but when confronted with exactly the same sort of complexity irl, particularly when it's my own children being nuanced and finding ways to challenge my assumptions, I'm shocked at how long it takes my awareness to catch up with reality. Unless you are a parent of children that have matured past puberty, it's hard to appreciate the difficulty of breaking out of the "do what you're told" mentality, ingrained from the time your child needed a second brain 24x7 to keep them safe, and switching gears to a role that requires a lot more appreciation for situational context. It's not hypocrisy, it's more like breaking out of bad habits.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2019 17:25:38 GMT
. And yes, they did put a lot of faith in the ability of the live service to patch their way out. So far, that hasn't proven to be true. Every patch introduces new and sometimes worse problems. I will read the article, but this here is alarming. They've rebooted Dragon Age to have the same core as Anthem so they can similarly patch their way out of problems after release, but now you're telling me that it doesn't even work IN Anthem? So far. But there's more going on than just patching and live service -- again, explained in the Anthem article. There's an Edmonton vs. Austin dynamic. Edmonton put all the bugs in, Austin is now stuck with trying to fix them. All along, Austin tried to tell Edmonton that the things they were doing weren't going to work well in a multiplayer online game, but they were ignored. So now Austin is stuck with all those mistakes, on top of not knowing how the game was put together in the first place. Austin is learning as they go, and making mistakes along the way. Hopefully, they won't make the same culture clash mistake with DA4. Either the same team will stick with it after launch, or they'll bring Austin in from from Day 1 and listen to them, if Austin is going to be stuck with the live service tail of the game.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,490
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,490
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Apr 14, 2019 17:38:08 GMT
The idea that "everybody here" wants fiction to contain nuanced and complex dilemmas but can't see them in real life strikes you as extremely accurate and not an attempt at a burn? The implication being that people who advocate complex storytelling here are necessarily one-track-minded hypocrites in real life? Can you explain that more in-depth, or am I reading you wrong? I really don't see the "nugget of truth" you're getting at in this context. Ah, I see. Your explanation of the implication helps my understand your reaction. I just wouldn't put it in such a judgy way. Also, I see it more as an awareness issue than one of hypocrisy. I'll be the first to admit I have exactly the blind spot Panda was talking about. I do insist that my game narratives be richly layered, nuanced, and complex, but when confronted with exactly the same sort of complexity irl, particularly when it's my own children being nuanced and finding ways to challenge my assumptions, I'm shocked at how long it takes my awareness to catch up with reality. Unless you are a parent of children that have matured past puberty, it's hard to appreciate the difficulty of breaking out of the "do what you're told" mentality, ingrained from the time your child needed a second brain 24x7 to keep them safe, and switching gears to a role that requires a lot more appreciation for situational context. It's not hypocrisy, it's more like breaking out of bad habits. That I see the point of, although in that case I hope you also appreciate that you putting forth strict guidelines and expecting your children to stick to them throughout that stage was important enough for their development that them occasionally finding you a bit overbearing now is probably an acceptable consequence of it. And it's not like they'll ever be in a position where higher authorities will respect their individual views and ideas and contexts that far above the commonly applied rule of law anyway. At least, hopefully not. I doubt that's what Panda was getting at with the comment though.
|
|