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Post by biggydx on Apr 22, 2019 19:03:19 GMT
The Reapers need to be tactical in their approach from the onset. While each individual Reaper is powerful on its own, it has been demonstrated that they're able to be taken down when targeting their weakpoints after their barriers are knocked out (as seen at the end of ME3). Though they number in the hundreds, maybe even thousands, they still need to replenish their numbers. Losing too many would likely make each successive invasion difficult to accomplish. Consider the fact that it takes hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of lifeforms in order to create a single Reaper, a process that likely takes some time, it reinforces how much forethought they need to put into invasion.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 22, 2019 19:43:52 GMT
The Reapers need to be tactical in their approach from the onset. While each individual Reaper is powerful on its own, it has been demonstrated that they're able to be taken down when targeting their weakpoints after their barriers are knocked out (as seen at the end of ME3). Though they number in the hundreds, maybe even thousands, they still need to replenish their numbers. Losing too many would likely make each successive invasion difficult to accomplish. Consider the fact that it takes hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of lifeforms in order to create a single Reaper, a process that likely takes some time, it reinforces how much forethought they need to put into invasion. Or they can go "F*ck it, assuming direct control!" and just charge in and start harvesting everything at once
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Post by biggydx on Apr 22, 2019 20:12:00 GMT
The Reapers need to be tactical in their approach from the onset. While each individual Reaper is powerful on its own, it has been demonstrated that they're able to be taken down when targeting their weakpoints after their barriers are knocked out (as seen at the end of ME3). Though they number in the hundreds, maybe even thousands, they still need to replenish their numbers. Losing too many would likely make each successive invasion difficult to accomplish. Consider the fact that it takes hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of lifeforms in order to create a single Reaper, a process that likely takes some time, it reinforces how much forethought they need to put into invasion. Or they can go "F*ck it, assuming direct control!" and just charge in and start harvesting everything at once Heavy risk... but the priiiize.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2019 21:23:29 GMT
Actually, a lot of ME3's structure can be preserved in a sensible version without too much work. Most of the Reapers we see are background decoration. Remove them and what's left? A bunch of expendable pawns which the Reapers can risk without losing anything of importance. The Reaper fleet hangs around offstage in a couple of doomstacks, while ground troops zerg rush the planets. They'll lose a bunch of transports, but those are drones anyway.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 23, 2019 10:35:39 GMT
Actually, a lot of ME3's structure can be preserved in a sensible version without too much work. Most of the Reapers we see are background decoration. Remove them and what's left? A bunch of expendable pawns which the Reapers can risk without losing anything of importance. The Reaper fleet hangs around offstage in a couple of doomstacks, while ground troops zerg rush the planets. They'll lose a bunch of transports, but those are drones anyway. Would the Reapers care about infrastructure? They'd just raise it all to the ground and wipe any signs of civilization on the planet, by orbital bombardment.They're too fast to be intercepted, too strong to be taken down and with their speed, they'll be within range of the planet to obliterate any force that inhabits it, before they get a single ship off the ground. Why would they even need ground troops?
So, anyway, I made a hypothetical scenario for a ME side-quel. It's kinda bullshit, I know it, but we're gonna do it for the memes and money. So here's my idea for Mass Effect: Femmes Fatales feel free to rip me a new one. I'm hoping to use this as a medium to undo the ending stuff into a more manageable scenario. Didn't wanna clog the forum with my shit, not as in a new thread, not even as a full post, or even a follow up post. Which is why I pastebined it. If you give the time to read through it, wow, I gotta thank you in advance for your dedication and perseverance.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 15:28:56 GMT
Still, just "attacking" them with indoctrinating sounds would be far more effective for them and far less risky. As "logic" driven entities (being AI), attacking with a military force and armed fleet makes no sense at all. I was suggesting that just killing them wasn't enough. It's the fighting and torture that makes it all worthwhile. I don't think an AI should get "pleasure" out of torture. It's considered "twisted" for humans to derive pleasure out of such things, so why would it be logical for an AI?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 23, 2019 17:09:02 GMT
I was suggesting that just killing them wasn't enough. It's the fighting and torture that makes it all worthwhile. I don't think an AI should get "pleasure" out of torture. It's considered "twisted" for humans to derive pleasure out of such things, so why would it be logical for an AI? Then why torture? What do you think happens with indoctrination as their will is slowly eaten away? How did Saren feel about it? Benezia? If they're truly modeled after the Leviathan they can do it instantly. They choose not to.
Fact is, as has been said, they could have conquered and destroyed with little-to-no fighting. Indoctrinate and have them walk right into the proto-Reaper of their race, assuming that's even necessary at that point. They - or the Catalyst - made a different decision. Why?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 17:31:48 GMT
I don't think an AI should get "pleasure" out of torture. It's considered "twisted" for humans to derive pleasure out of such things, so why would it be logical for an AI? Then why torture? What do you think happens with indoctrination as their will is slowly eaten away? How did Saren feel about it? Benezia? If they're truly modeled after the Leviathan they can do it instantly. They choose not to.
Fact is, as has been said, they could have conquered and destroyed with little-to-no fighting. Indoctrinate and have them walk right into the proto-Reaper of their race, assuming that's even necessary at that point. They - or the Catalyst - made a different decision. Why?
Why indeed... That's exactly why I'm saying it makes no sense for the Reapers to torture... an AI should not derive pleasure from it the way a "twisted' organic might. According to Legion, they simply don't experience such emotions. A bloodless takeover as I described would have been a more logical approach for an AI to take... It poses the least risk of exposing themselves to harm. Introducing a virus to disable the organic's "inferior" tech and early evolution AI's should have been child's play for the Reapers. Shielding themselves from the effects of an EMP should have also been a piece of cake for them. They should possess the capability to communicate at speed we organics cannot even begin to fathom (again according to Legion about the geth AI and why wouldn't the Reaper Ai be equally capable). Why then did Sovereign even need the Citadel to communicate with the Reapers in dark space. As a species of networked AI, he should have been able to communicate with all of them instantly. In ME3, we are told that they effectively possess all of the knowledge of all the past civilizations they have harvested over the past billion or so years, so why didn't they ever learn anything from them?
The Reapers as a whole simply don't make sense and have never made sense. They were represented inconsistently from the outset and then that representation of what they were kept changing throughout the series. The Catalyst is just another idea built on an already very shakey tower of cards made up on too many different "spur of the moment" ideas.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 24, 2019 1:14:30 GMT
The Reapers as a whole simply don't make sense and have never made sense. They were represented inconsistently from the outset and then that representation of what they were kept changing throughout the series. The Catalyst is just another idea built on an already very shakey tower of cards made up on too many different "spur of the moment" ideas. The Catalyst did the thing it was created to prevent. That shows a flaw from the word go.
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Post by melbella on Apr 24, 2019 1:32:32 GMT
The Catalyst did the thing it was created to prevent. That shows a flaw from the word go. Yet somehow the Leviathan don't see this as a problem. Or their fault.
"There was no mistake."
Uh, yeah, you keep telling yourself that, buddy.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 24, 2019 1:34:50 GMT
This is just me, Having Reaper Sleeper Agents slowly breaking up various factions thru infighting and setting up a situation where joining the Reapers willing in the harvest look like a good idea.
Also New Non Husk Reaper Factions to shoot up. As much as I love my Paragon of Their Kind and Black Talons Factions, there are many possible New Non Husk Reaper Factions with each has their own unique function. Personally I don't want to have Cerberus as an Enemy Faction every other mission.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 24, 2019 14:05:04 GMT
This is just me, Having Reaper Sleeper Agents slowly breaking up various factions thru infighting and setting up a situation where joining the Reapers willing in the harvest look like a good idea. I had a post-Reaper War (Destroy) along these lines. Suppose indoctrinated agents were permanently altered? The Reapers no longer exist but the indoctrinated behave as though they did. They continue to sabotage the galaxy, continue to kill and continue to contribute to the creation of a new Reaper based on any or all races in the known galaxy. It would be really twisted. Or the Leviathan could cause similar behavior that helps them ascend to prominence in the galaxy once more. I think Destroy holds the most promise for a post-Reaper War game set in the galaxy. Synthesis seems rather bland - unless pissed off former organics still want the Reapers and Catalyst dead for what they did. With Control, any fight is over before it gets a chance to start because...Reapers. Refuse would make no sense unless we want to watch how the organics are slowly picked off.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 24, 2019 14:13:49 GMT
This is just me, Having Reaper Sleeper Agents slowly breaking up various factions thru infighting and setting up a situation where joining the Reapers willing in the harvest look like a good idea. I had a post-Reaper War (Destroy) along these lines. Suppose indoctrinated agents were permanently altered? The Reapers no longer exist but the indoctrinated behave as though they did. They continue to sabotage the galaxy, continue to kill and continue to contribute to the creation of a new Reaper based on any or all races in the known galaxy. It would be really twisted. Or the Leviathan could cause similar behavior that helps them ascend to prominence in the galaxy once more. I think Destroy holds the most promise for a post-Reaper War game set in the galaxy. Synthesis seems rather bland - unless pissed off former organics still want the Reapers and Catalyst dead for what they did. With Control, any fight is over before it gets a chance to start because...Reapers. Refuse would make no sense unless we want to watch how the organics are slowly picked off.Destroy ending that decimates, but doesn't exterminate all synthetic life. The relay network is trashed. The galaxy is knocked back into a mini-Dark Age. Time jump a few centuries. The relays are finally sorta back up and running. The events of the Reaper War have passed into myth and legend. No one is entirely sure what happened or if the Reapers are all gone. The face of the galaxy has changed. The Citadel Council is no longer the only major governing body. Some worlds have risen in power and prominence. Others have sunk to barbarism or have died out completely. No one has heard from the geth or quarians in centuries, so who knows what their status is? Shepard is a savior to some, a monster to others. No one knows what became of him/her. Some say Shepard died on the Citadel that day. Others that the Commander was rescued by the Normandy and lived out the rest of his/her life on Earth, or a nearby world. Still others think Shepard was put in stasis and will come again in the galaxy's darkest hour. A Mass Effect 4 could have (and perhaps still could) be about exploring that world. Finding out what has changed, what hasn't.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 24, 2019 21:27:59 GMT
I think Destroy holds the most promise for a post-Reaper War game set in the galaxy. It does. If Bioware chooses to go with refuse, I like for the game to start off when Commander dumba** refuses to make a choice. After seeing an Alliance ship destroyed, the dumba** runs after the thing crying like a little baby wanting to have another chance to make a choice. The screen fades-to-black. A moment later, writing appears on the screen explaining that its 50,000 years later after the reapers harvested the galaxy.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 24, 2019 21:45:58 GMT
I had a post-Reaper War (Destroy) along these lines. Suppose indoctrinated agents were permanently altered? The Reapers no longer exist but the indoctrinated behave as though they did. They continue to sabotage the galaxy, continue to kill and continue to contribute to the creation of a new Reaper based on any or all races in the known galaxy. It would be really twisted. Or the Leviathan could cause similar behavior that helps them ascend to prominence in the galaxy once more. I think Destroy holds the most promise for a post-Reaper War game set in the galaxy. Synthesis seems rather bland - unless pissed off former organics still want the Reapers and Catalyst dead for what they did. With Control, any fight is over before it gets a chance to start because...Reapers. Refuse would make no sense unless we want to watch how the organics are slowly picked off.Destroy ending that decimates, but doesn't exterminate all synthetic life. The relay network is trashed. The galaxy is knocked back into a mini-Dark Age. Time jump a few centuries. The relays are finally sorta back up and running. The events of the Reaper War have passed into myth and legend. No one is entirely sure what happened or if the Reapers are all gone. The face of the galaxy has changed. The Citadel Council is no longer the only major governing body. Some worlds have risen in power and prominence. Others have sunk to barbarism or have died out completely. No one has heard from the geth or quarians in centuries, so who knows what their status is? Shepard is a savior to some, a monster to others. No one knows what became of him/her. Some say Shepard died on the Citadel that day. Others that the Commander was rescued by the Normandy and lived out the rest of his/her life on Earth, or a nearby world. Still others think Shepard was put in stasis and will come again in the galaxy's darkest hour. A Mass Effect 4 could have (and perhaps still could) be about exploring that world. Finding out what has changed, what hasn't.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 24, 2019 21:52:04 GMT
Destroy ending that decimates, but doesn't exterminate all synthetic life. The relay network is trashed. The galaxy is knocked back into a mini-Dark Age. Time jump a few centuries. The relays are finally sorta back up and running. The events of the Reaper War have passed into myth and legend. No one is entirely sure what happened or if the Reapers are all gone. The face of the galaxy has changed. The Citadel Council is no longer the only major governing body. Some worlds have risen in power and prominence. Others have sunk to barbarism or have died out completely. No one has heard from the geth or quarians in centuries, so who knows what their status is? Shepard is a savior to some, a monster to others. No one knows what became of him/her. Some say Shepard died on the Citadel that day. Others that the Commander was rescued by the Normandy and lived out the rest of his/her life on Earth, or a nearby world. Still others think Shepard was put in stasis and will come again in the galaxy's darkest hour. A Mass Effect 4 could have (and perhaps still could) be about exploring that world. Finding out what has changed, what hasn't. Care to elaborate? To my mind, it maintains the "frontier and exploration" feeling that MEA tried to capture, while keeping a lot of the touchstones of the original trilogy, and not canonizing any particular ending.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 24, 2019 22:04:05 GMT
Care to elaborate? To my mind, it maintains the "frontier and exploration" feeling that MEA tried to capture, while keeping a lot of the touchstones of the original trilogy, and not canonizing any particular ending. Things like races dying out or disappearing between games. I do not want that, especially since one is my favorite. Then just how dismissive it is of the choices, but I know your stance on game choices so we’ll just have to agree to disagree about that.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 24, 2019 22:43:10 GMT
Things like races dying out or disappearing between games. I do not want that, especially since one is my favorite. Then just how dismissive it is of the choices, but I know your stance on game choices so we’ll just have to agree to disagree about that. Well, if all the choices are bad and further prevents something from being good, if presented with a loophole to sidestep them, would you take it because you'd rather have something good again, or stick with them, because the option of two different shades of unacceptable are better than a single outcome of good, so long as there is a choice?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 24, 2019 22:51:02 GMT
Things like races dying out or disappearing between games. I do not want that, especially since one is my favorite. Then just how dismissive it is of the choices, but I know your stance on game choices so we’ll just have to agree to disagree about that. Well, if all the choices are bad and further prevents something from being good, if presented with a loophole to sidestep them, would you take it because you'd rather have something good again, or stick with them, because the option of two different shades of unacceptable are better than a single outcome of good, so long as there is a choice? I’d keep the promise made for those games intact and have future stories respect them in future games, either by acknowledging all possibilities or if that’s not possible do something that doesn’t ruin them like perhaps going to a new location. Also good and bad in this regard is subjective.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 24, 2019 22:56:34 GMT
I’d keep the promise made for those games intact I'm just gonna say, at this point, Bioware isn't big at keeping promises. And they kept them intact for 7 years and they probably will be for another four. Give me the option to change it later. It won't even invalidate it. New option, to restore some of that wasted potential, if you choose so. Can't argue with new choice. It's new. And choice matters. Right? Also good and bad in this regard is subjective. Bad for what you'd like. And you already said you didn't like those choices.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 24, 2019 23:01:30 GMT
I’d keep the promise made for those games intact I'm just gonna say, at this point, Bioware isn't big at keeping promises. And they kept them intact for 7 years and they probably will be for another four. Give me the option to change it later. It won't even invalidate it. New option, to restore some of that wasted potential, if you choose so. Can't argue with new choice. It's new. And choice matters. Right? Also good and bad in this regard is subjective. Bad for what you'd like. And you already said you didn't like those choices. Your post is worded confusingly. Can you clarify please?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 24, 2019 23:05:08 GMT
Your post is worded confusingly. Can you clarify please? Sure. Which part are you having problem with? And what exactly is is that's got you confused?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 24, 2019 23:08:34 GMT
Your post is worded confusingly. Can you clarify please? Sure. Which part are you having problem with? And what exactly is is that's got you confused? The first part that talks about options.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 24, 2019 23:11:31 GMT
The first part that talks about options. I’m guessing it’s something like they release the game first then add options later that respect other choices or something like that? Game starts, the world picks up from where you left it, as the game progresses, you are presented with an option that can undo the previous damage. You can ignore the option, go on with the setting as it were, or fix it. Your previous choices are absolutely respected, in that concern.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 24, 2019 23:27:35 GMT
Care to elaborate? To my mind, it maintains the "frontier and exploration" feeling that MEA tried to capture, while keeping a lot of the touchstones of the original trilogy, and not canonizing any particular ending. Things like races dying out or disappearing between games. I do not want that, especially since one is my favorite. Then just how dismissive it is of the choices, but I know your stance on game choices so we’ll just have to agree to disagree about that. I wouldn't have races die out, if it were up to me. Vanished sure, because the galaxy hasn't been unified in centuries or more, and contact has been lost. The whole point of the new series would be to find out the state of the galaxy and what's happened in the intervening time. Some worlds would have flourished. Others...not so much. That's true. As for choices, well, I never felt my choices mattered much between games anyway. But at this point the SHeprd trilgy is finished, so I don't think Bioware should be beholden to past games for that. I always thought chocies should only really matter in the game where it's made anyway.
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