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Post by biggydx on Apr 25, 2019 18:22:09 GMT
I always thought chocies should only really matter in the game where it's made anyway. To me, I feel like this one of the bigger takeaways BioWare needs to adopt in order to bring greater significance to the choices we make. Things like game save data transfers and "The Keep" were good novelties, but their impact couldn't be made significant because of how many potential branching arches it could create in the story line. I have a feeling this was why Mass Effect 2 felt so appealing when it released, as it largely was untethered from the initial story set in ME1.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 25, 2019 19:39:58 GMT
I always thought chocies should only really matter in the game where it's made anyway. To me, I feel like this one of the bigger takeaways BioWare needs to adopt in order to bring greater significance to the choices we make. Things like game save data transfers and "The Keep" were good novelties, but their impact couldn't be made significant because of how many potential branching arches it could create in the story line. I have a feeling this was why Mass Effect 2 felt so appealing when it released, as it largely was untethered from the initial story set in ME1. I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 25, 2019 20:01:56 GMT
What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you? Like killing leliana?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 25, 2019 20:46:44 GMT
I always thought chocies should only really matter in the game where it's made anyway. To me, I feel like this one of the bigger takeaways BioWare needs to adopt in order to bring greater significance to the choices we make. Things like game save data transfers and "The Keep" were good novelties, but their impact couldn't be made significant because of how many potential branching arches it could create in the story line. I have a feeling this was why Mass Effect 2 felt so appealing when it released, as it largely was untethered from the initial story set in ME1. Notice how all the "big choices" made in DAI ended up being watered down to almost nothing in the epilogues.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 25, 2019 20:49:39 GMT
To me, I feel like this one of the bigger takeaways BioWare needs to adopt in order to bring greater significance to the choices we make. Things like game save data transfers and "The Keep" were good novelties, but their impact couldn't be made significant because of how many potential branching arches it could create in the story line. I have a feeling this was why Mass Effect 2 felt so appealing when it released, as it largely was untethered from the initial story set in ME1. I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you? Because in the one game, in that one story, it matters. Who cares what Revan canonically did, who the Bhaalspawn was, if the Spirit Monk followed the Open Palm or Closed Fist paths, if you are given the freedom to choose something different, and make your own story? It's when they say "your choices matter" then in the next game go "lol NOPE!" that I start getting p*ssed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 25, 2019 21:13:42 GMT
I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you? Because in the one game, in that one story, it matters. Who cares what Revan canonically did, who the Bhaalspawn was, if the Spirit Monk followed the Open Palm or Closed Fist paths, if you are given the freedom to choose something different, and make your own story? It's when they say "your choices matter" then in the next game go "lol NOPE!" that I start getting p*ssed. If there are more games taking place after to continue the story, then I care as do many others. You say you get pissed when that happens, yet suggest that that’s exactly what they should do for all the choices. This is what I was referring to when I said I knew your position so we’d have to agree to disagree.
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Post by brfritos on Apr 25, 2019 21:13:45 GMT
To me, I feel like this one of the bigger takeaways BioWare needs to adopt in order to bring greater significance to the choices we make. Things like game save data transfers and "The Keep" were good novelties, but their impact couldn't be made significant because of how many potential branching arches it could create in the story line. I have a feeling this was why Mass Effect 2 felt so appealing when it released, as it largely was untethered from the initial story set in ME1. I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you?
There's absolutely not a single problem in creating a default cannon, given what Fallout 1, 2 and FNV did.
Of course it's another selling point and it's great to see your past-choices reflected in the next game, but if they are pointless ones most of the time, why bother?
Also Mass Effect did have a cannon: start a new game without importing a save or using Genesis and you will see it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 25, 2019 21:17:01 GMT
I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you?
There's absolutely not a single problem in creating a default cannon, given what Fallout 1, 2 and FNV did.
Of course it's another selling point and it's great to see your past-choices reflected in the next game, but if they are pointless ones most of the time, why bother?
Also Mass Effect did have a cannon: start a new game without importing a save or using Genesis and you will see it.
I can think of many problems I’ve had with series that do that, to the point I no longer play some of them for that reason. Even if it is just an illusion of choice, I welcome that over the series that go “You’re wrong, this is what happened”. And no, it had a default worldstate that could be altered by your choices. The default is not the canon.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 25, 2019 21:24:02 GMT
Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. Can that be said about the gameplay as well? In the trilogy, I had the power wheel. I was able to have a squadmate use whatever power on one enemy while the other squadmate uses a power on another enemy. Along comes MEA. No power wheel.
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Post by brfritos on Apr 25, 2019 21:33:23 GMT
There's absolutely not a single problem in creating a default cannon, given what Fallout 1, 2 and FNV did.
Of course it's another selling point and it's great to see your past-choices reflected in the next game, but if they are pointless ones most of the time, why bother?
Also Mass Effect did have a cannon: start a new game without importing a save or using Genesis and you will see it.
I can think of many problems I’ve had with series that do that, to the point I no longer play some of them for that reason. Even if it is just an illusion of choice, I welcome that over the series that go “You’re wrong, this is what happened”. And no, it had a default worldstate that could be altered by your choices. The default is not the canon.
This is true for you and me that played the past games, but what about people that started from ME2 or ME3?
The rachni are dead in these games, regardless if we like it or not.
That's a cannon choice.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 25, 2019 21:36:52 GMT
Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. Can that be said about the gameplay as well? In the trilogy, I had the power wheel. I was able to have a squadmate use whatever power on one enemy while the other squadmate uses a power on another enemy. Along comes MEA. No power wheel. DAI didn't have a power wheel either, sadly. And IMO, Bioware games were better when they didn't have to worry about baggage from previous games. More attention could go towards telling a quality story NOW rather then spending resources on pointless cameos or having to account for different choices being made. I mean seriously, BG2 is arguably the best game Bioware has ever made, and it paid FA attention to player choice in BG1. Heck the only things that COULD be imported were the character sheet and a few select items if you had them in your inventory (and at the time you were better off rolling a new character anyway, so you could take advantage of the kits BG2 introduced)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 25, 2019 21:51:59 GMT
I can think of many problems I’ve had with series that do that, to the point I no longer play some of them for that reason. Even if it is just an illusion of choice, I welcome that over the series that go “You’re wrong, this is what happened”. And no, it had a default worldstate that could be altered by your choices. The default is not the canon.
This is true for you and me that played the past games, but what about people that started from ME2 or ME3?
The rachni are dead in these games, regardless if we like it or not.
That's a cannon choice. A canon perhaps, but not the canon. BioWare has said countless times how there is no canon for their games since what you do is your canon.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 25, 2019 22:56:54 GMT
Because Morrigan's child in DAO was an option, ALL possible cool ideas for it had to be discarded. THAT is how "awesome" player choice is in the end. They had to neuter that choice because it couldn't matter. This is one of those pointless wasted narrative threads that drive me crazy... I agree with those of you who say choices should only matter for the current game, or current arc at the most. Nothing of any real importance to the PLOT can ever be decided by the player for obvious reasons. Players make choices on the finer details. That is all. Let's not blow out of proportion what Bioware games offered. In terms of choices, tons of other games do the same illusion of choice thing. What made the trilogy special was having the same protagonist, the same companions grow and change over the course of three games. That was unique. That was brilliant. The level of emotional attachment to these characters unparalleled. Replayability thanks to all these little choices is great. But that's not at all unique to Bioware. And in terms of real consequences to your actions, other games offer a greater range of outcomes. As long as there isn't an evil ending, Bioware games remain inferior to, say, Fallout New Vegas. Not saying Bioware games need an evil ending. Just that choices are NOT what they do better than anyone else.
Hence my fairly indifferent attitude towards picking a canon.
I couldn't care less about the choices I made with Shepard. I had several Shepards who all live in parallel alternate universes. Just pick one version and go with it. I don't care! Sure, I have my favorite Shepard and my favorite choices, but really, any world state is valid because they are all possible.
What I cared about was the journey with the characters. Their journey is OVER. Just fast forward to a date where none of the old characters are still alive and the details don't matter much anymore.
Know what REALLY pissed me off? When they fucked up the face codes in ME3 and my Shepard didn't have purple eyes anymore. That's immersion breaking bullshit and I still can't fathom why removing sliders was considered fine. What does eye color have to do with new animations or whatever the excuse was anyway?? I care about consistency within a story and that my character doesn't morph into a hideous alien before the story is over. Once it's over, my emotional attachment to my choices ends.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 25, 2019 23:07:41 GMT
What I cared about was the journey with the characters. Their journey is OVER. Just fast forward to a date where none of the old characters are still alive and the details don't matter much anymore. I'd argue that, for some characters, the journey was barely there. At least compared to other characters. Especially for some of the best received characters in the series. I would very much like and I'm sure others along with me, if something would be done to rectify that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 25, 2019 23:09:15 GMT
What I cared about was the journey with the characters. Their journey is OVER. Just fast forward to a date where none of the old characters are still alive and the details don't matter much anymore. I'd argue that, for some characters, the journey was barely there. At least compared to other characters. Especially for some of the best received characters in the series. I would very much like and I'm sure others along with me, if something would be done to rectify that. Which ones out of curiosity?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 25, 2019 23:30:19 GMT
Which ones out of curiosity? Zaeed (RIP), Kasumi, Javik, Grunt, Samara/Morinth, Miranda, Jack. I'd add Thane, but he's dead. As is Morinth. And Legion who died because... uh, he uploaded himself? I mean, he died and I was like what? What? Why the fuck did that happen? On what fucking grounds did that happen? And yeah, Bioware explains it in a way ingame, but it's really forced. Like, really fucking forced. A lot of the things that happen in ME3 feel forced and - shit. I'm gonna stop myself there, because I am derailing myself and I am sure people have had this conversation here before. Hell, I could even make a case for Jacob, but him ditching his wife, kid and the orphanage kids he is looking after to go on an adventure would be a real dick move for his character. Bioware did enough to stuff every single bad black male stereotype they could on him. Holy hell, what a trainwreck. Still better than Liam, though.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 26, 2019 1:55:45 GMT
To me, I feel like this one of the bigger takeaways BioWare needs to adopt in order to bring greater significance to the choices we make. Things like game save data transfers and "The Keep" were good novelties, but their impact couldn't be made significant because of how many potential branching arches it could create in the story line. I have a feeling this was why Mass Effect 2 felt so appealing when it released, as it largely was untethered from the initial story set in ME1. I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you? I'd argue that their strengths with character personalities, banter, development, and party-style gameplay system, was what set them apart. I will say that I liked the extra bonuses you got in ME for having previous game saves. As for forced canons, I don't believe they're an inherently bad thing for a game to have. If you start having choices from previous games affecting subsequent titles, you wind up adding a lot of complexity to the narrative and world building you're trying to make. Make choices too impactful, then the developers would then have to put more development time into having to justify those choices in the next game. It's a tangled web problem that could spiral out of control.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 26, 2019 2:19:50 GMT
I couldn’t disagree more. Your choices affecting future games, no matter how much, is what sets their games apart from the other studios for the better. What’s the point in even having choices when future games will just ignore them and force a canon on you? I'd argue that their strengths with character personalities, banter, development, and party-style gameplay system, was what set them apart. I will say that I liked the extra bonuses you got in ME for having previous game saves. As for forced canons, I don't believe they're an inherently bad thing for a game to have. If you start having choices from previous games affecting subsequent titles, you wind up adding a lot of complexity to the narrative and world building you're trying to make. Make choices too impactful, then the developers would then have to put more development time into having to justify those choices in the next game. It's a tangled web problem that could spiral out of control. I meant to say part of what set them apart, since yeah their characters are the other thing that do.
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Post by brfritos on Apr 26, 2019 4:33:11 GMT
This is true for you and me that played the past games, but what about people that started from ME2 or ME3?
The rachni are dead in these games, regardless if we like it or not.
That's a cannon choice. A canon perhaps, but not the canon. BioWare has said countless times how there is no canon for their games since what you do is your canon.
But that's my point, there's a cannon to the game and I don't see a problem with that.
For example using the Genesis 2 DLC or starting a ME3 game without a save gives the same result regarding Mordin's loyalty mission (the genophage cure was destroyed and Maleon was killed); captain Kiharre is considered dead; the Rachni queen is considered dead; Samara killed Morinth; by default in either case Thane and Jack are considered dead (their names even appear on the Normandy memorial). Also either in ME2 and ME3 without importing a save or using Genesis means that the colony on Feros was destroyed.
This don't invalidate the player's choices or make them less important, after all is our game and our Shepard. But some events are clearly set throughout the trilogy.
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but playing a ME3 (or ME2 for that matter) without importing a save is one hell of a experience. Some dialogs change and are very good, sometimes better than when importing a save. If you didn't played one until now I recommend, there are good things to be discovered.
You lost Conrad Verner though. Well, can't have it all it seems...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 26, 2019 5:07:57 GMT
A canon perhaps, but not the canon. BioWare has said countless times how there is no canon for their games since what you do is your canon.
But that's my point, there's a cannon to the game and I don't see a problem with that.
For example using the Genesis 2 DLC or starting a ME3 game without a save gives the same result regarding Mordin's loyalty mission (the genophage cure was destroyed and Maleon was killed); captain Kiharre is considered dead; the Rachni queen is considered dead; Samara killed Morinth; by default in either case Thane and Jack are considered dead (their names even appear on the Normandy memorial). Also either in ME2 and ME3 without importing a save or using Genesis means that the colony on Feros was destroyed.
This don't invalidate the player's choices or make them less important, after all is our game and our Shepard. But some events are clearly set throughout the trilogy.
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but playing a ME3 (or ME2 for that matter) without importing a save is one hell of a experience. Some dialogs change and are very good, sometimes better than when importing a save. If you didn't played one until now I recommend, there are good things to be discovered.
You lost Conrad Verner though. Well, can't have it all it seems... My issue isn't with there being a canon that could be changed, but there being the canon that cannot. To go back to the endings, if Destroy was the default but I could choose another ending then that's fine but if Destroy is the only possibility thus the canon then it harms the game for me. And yes that would invalidate the player's choices because any future content would forever ignore those choices, treating them as wrong while the ones they stick you with are the 'correct' ones. Just like if the default they use for those games is the only possibility while what you actually did in ME1 was tossed aside.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 13:03:20 GMT
But that's my point, there's a cannon to the game and I don't see a problem with that.
For example using the Genesis 2 DLC or starting a ME3 game without a save gives the same result regarding Mordin's loyalty mission (the genophage cure was destroyed and Maleon was killed); captain Kiharre is considered dead; the Rachni queen is considered dead; Samara killed Morinth; by default in either case Thane and Jack are considered dead (their names even appear on the Normandy memorial). Also either in ME2 and ME3 without importing a save or using Genesis means that the colony on Feros was destroyed.
This don't invalidate the player's choices or make them less important, after all is our game and our Shepard. But some events are clearly set throughout the trilogy.
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but playing a ME3 (or ME2 for that matter) without importing a save is one hell of a experience. Some dialogs change and are very good, sometimes better than when importing a save. If you didn't played one until now I recommend, there are good things to be discovered.
You lost Conrad Verner though. Well, can't have it all it seems... My issue isn't with there being a canon that could be changed, but there being the canon that cannot. To go back to the endings, if Destroy was the default but I could choose another ending then that's fine but if Destroy is the only possibility thus the canon then it harms the game for me. And yes that would invalidate the player's choices because any future content would forever ignore those choices, treating them as wrong while the ones they stick you with are the 'correct' ones. Just like if the default they use for those games is the only possibility while what you actually did in ME1 was tossed aside. I agree... and I think most people saying now that it doesn't matter to them would agree IF the ending chosen by Bioware is Synthesis and forever after every creature in the game is shown to be visibly synthesized and the galaxy contained a myriad of synthesized Reapers running around and perhaps even sitting on the Council. It completely invalidates any scenario or Shepard who did not choose to synthesize the galaxy at the end of ME3 since that is the only decision that remains in play after that point. Shepards who would choose anything else simply could not have existed in ME reality.
I've proposed many times a new canon ending wherein Shepard merely dies before activating the crucible... at the point in time when he/she collapses while reaching for the console to respond to Hackett's urgent plea for help... and then Bioware tells us a whole new story about how the crucible was fired (if it was fired at all) and what happened after that. The player is then being told by Bioware that what they saw after that point in ME3 is the result of Shepard's mind conjuring up images as he/she dies. It's the most benign canon ending I can think of... one where the only loss is Shpeard... who never lives under any circumstance (or alternatively always lives if he/she is brought back to life again). Yet... it has been fervently rejected here every single time I've proposed it. Why? Because ultimately the proponents of choosing the Destroy/Lives ending feel the same... that any choice of canon that is not their own would invalidate their earlier playthroughs.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 26, 2019 13:17:29 GMT
A canon perhaps, but not the canon. BioWare has said countless times how there is no canon for their games since what you do is your canon.
But that's my point, there's a cannon to the game and I don't see a problem with that.
For example using the Genesis 2 DLC or starting a ME3 game without a save gives the same result regarding Mordin's loyalty mission (the genophage cure was destroyed and Maleon was killed); captain Kiharre is considered dead; the Rachni queen is considered dead; Samara killed Morinth; by default in either case Thane and Jack are considered dead (their names even appear on the Normandy memorial). Also either in ME2 and ME3 without importing a save or using Genesis means that the colony on Feros was destroyed.
This don't invalidate the player's choices or make them less important, after all is our game and our Shepard. But some events are clearly set throughout the trilogy.
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but playing a ME3 (or ME2 for that matter) without importing a save is one hell of a experience. Some dialogs change and are very good, sometimes better than when importing a save. If you didn't played one until now I recommend, there are good things to be discovered.
You lost Conrad Verner though. Well, can't have it all it seems... Actually given that the rachni "came back" even if we killed them makes me think that the default is really that we let them live. Even if some decisions are underplayed and such I love them being included. It is one of the things that made the ME series and the DA series so special.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 26, 2019 13:19:14 GMT
But that's my point, there's a cannon to the game and I don't see a problem with that.
For example using the Genesis 2 DLC or starting a ME3 game without a save gives the same result regarding Mordin's loyalty mission (the genophage cure was destroyed and Maleon was killed); captain Kiharre is considered dead; the Rachni queen is considered dead; Samara killed Morinth; by default in either case Thane and Jack are considered dead (their names even appear on the Normandy memorial). Also either in ME2 and ME3 without importing a save or using Genesis means that the colony on Feros was destroyed.
This don't invalidate the player's choices or make them less important, after all is our game and our Shepard. But some events are clearly set throughout the trilogy.
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but playing a ME3 (or ME2 for that matter) without importing a save is one hell of a experience. Some dialogs change and are very good, sometimes better than when importing a save. If you didn't played one until now I recommend, there are good things to be discovered.
You lost Conrad Verner though. Well, can't have it all it seems... My issue isn't with there being a canon that could be changed, but there being the canon that cannot. To go back to the endings, if Destroy was the default but I could choose another ending then that's fine but if Destroy is the only possibility thus the canon then it harms the game for me. And yes that would invalidate the player's choices because any future content would forever ignore those choices, treating them as wrong while the ones they stick you with are the 'correct' ones. Just like if the default they use for those games is the only possibility while what you actually did in ME1 was tossed aside. I think the ending could be fixed easily if we just have a remaster that changes the ending.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 13:30:37 GMT
My issue isn't with there being a canon that could be changed, but there being the canon that cannot. To go back to the endings, if Destroy was the default but I could choose another ending then that's fine but if Destroy is the only possibility thus the canon then it harms the game for me. And yes that would invalidate the player's choices because any future content would forever ignore those choices, treating them as wrong while the ones they stick you with are the 'correct' ones. Just like if the default they use for those games is the only possibility while what you actually did in ME1 was tossed aside. I think the ending could be fixed easily if we just have a remaster that changes the ending. If you read my paragraph 2 (possibly added after you responded), you'll see that nothing needs to be changed within ME3 at all. The Western Christian imagery supporting Shepard dying in that moment while reaching for the console is already there. He/she ascends to meet his/her final judgment. Shepard never makes a decision because he/she dies before he/she can make a decision. Hackett may or may not find another way to have the Crucible fire and he's doing so blindly - without even knowing what it does.
An ending change in ME3 is NOT a remaster - it is a remake. Not remaking ME3 has advantages since there would be no cost or studio time devoted to remaking it. We'd get a new game sooner and with less burden on Bioware staff (who by recent reports are already overworked).
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Post by themikefest on Apr 26, 2019 14:07:33 GMT
I've proposed many times a new canon ending wherein Shepard merely dies before activating the crucible... at the point in time when he/she collapses while reaching for the console to respond to Hackett's urgent plea for help... and then Bioware tells us a whole new story about how the crucible was fired (if it was fired at all) and what happened after that. The player is then being told by Bioware that what they saw after that point in ME3 is the result of Shepard's mind conjuring up images as he/she dies. It's the most benign canon ending I can think of... one where the only loss is Shpeard... who never lives under any circumstance (or alternatively always lives if he/she is brought back to life again). Yet... it has been fervently rejected here every single time I've proposed it. Why? Because ultimately the proponents of choosing the Destroy/Lives ending feel the same... that any choice of canon that is not their own would invalidate their earlier playthroughs. So, a whole game devoted to how the crucible was fired? Should be a very short game. If the thing isn't able to activate the crucible, then who made it up to that area to hear what the thing had to say about each choice? Did someone from C-Sec make it up there? Did Hackett send a shuttle to that area then have someone on that shuttle make a choice?
Since you say your Shepard is dead just before using the console, does that mean when the edibot talks about the green it will mention a different name for giving it a chance to survive? How about control? What about destroy? Instead of seeing an N7 dogtag, what will it show? It would be interesting to see/hear what Bioware does to explain all that if Shepard isn't the one that activated the crucible or chose not to.
For me, the game told me what the ending would be. After the coup, Hackett says that its believed the crucible has enough energy to destroy the reapers. They didn't know how that would happen. After Shepard passes out, and the crucible is docked, it fires destroying the reapers. Simple.
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