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Post by themikefest on Apr 26, 2019 14:14:27 GMT
My issue isn't with there being a canon that could be changed, but there being the canon that cannot. To go back to the endings, if Destroy was the default but I could choose another ending then that's fine but if Destroy is the only possibility thus the canon then it harms the game for me. Ok. Since your ending is the green, a question pops up asking what ending you chose. You would choose green. After the games starts, everything will be green.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 14:20:56 GMT
I've proposed many times a new canon ending wherein Shepard merely dies before activating the crucible... at the point in time when he/she collapses while reaching for the console to respond to Hackett's urgent plea for help... and then Bioware tells us a whole new story about how the crucible was fired (if it was fired at all) and what happened after that. The player is then being told by Bioware that what they saw after that point in ME3 is the result of Shepard's mind conjuring up images as he/she dies. It's the most benign canon ending I can think of... one where the only loss is Shpeard... who never lives under any circumstance (or alternatively always lives if he/she is brought back to life again). Yet... it has been fervently rejected here every single time I've proposed it. Why? Because ultimately the proponents of choosing the Destroy/Lives ending feel the same... that any choice of canon that is not their own would invalidate their earlier playthroughs. So, a whole game devoted to how the crucible was fired? Should be a very short game. If the thing isn't able to activate the crucible, then who made it up to that area to hear what the thing had to say about each choice? Did someone from C-Sec make it up there? Did Hackett send a shuttle to that area then have someone on that shuttle make a choice?
Since you say your Shepard is dead just before using the console, does that mean when the edibot talks about the green it will mention a different name for giving it a chance to survive? How about control? What about destroy? Instead of seeing an N7 dogtag, what will it show? It would be interesting to see/hear what Bioware does to explain all that if Shepard isn't the one that activated the crucible or chose not to.
For me, the game told me what the ending would be. After the coup, Hackett says that its believed the crucible has enough energy to destroy the reapers. They didn't know how that would happen. After Shepard passes out, and the crucible is docked, it fires destroying the reapers. Simple.
As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. The new game would, of course, not be devoted to how the crucible was fired. It would be described in Bioware's canon beginning to that new game and whatever story they wanted to tell out of that canon event would follow from there. If people should accept a canon destroy ending without problems (which is what the "destroy" crowd keep telling us), why shouldn't they accept a "Shepard didn't fire the crucible" ending as canon?
Maybe the story of the next game becomes how the current cycle eventually defeated the Reapers conventionally... because the Crucible never worked at all.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 26, 2019 14:36:22 GMT
As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. Your point is you want everyone to agree with your canon by saying Shepard is dead in front of the console.
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Post by 10k on Apr 26, 2019 15:04:42 GMT
As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. The new game would, of course, not be devoted to how the crucible was fired. It would be described in Bioware's canon beginning to that new game and whatever story they wanted to tell out of that canon event would follow from there. If people should accept a canon destroy ending without problems (which is what the "destroy" crowd keep telling us), why shouldn't they accept a "Shepard didn't fire the crucible" ending as canon? Maybe the story of the next game becomes how the current cycle eventually defeated the Reapers conventionally... because the Crucible never worked at all.
But wouldn't they still have to choose a canon? If shepard just dies at the controls, they still have to chose what canon to follow in order to continue, no matter who pushes the button. That just seems like more work to describe what happened if Shepard just dies at the controls. It would be better to just pick an ending, preferably the one the impacts the universe the least i.e destroy. I personally picked control, but destroy with or without Shepard is hands down the best canon to chose IMO. All that's lost is Ai, and that can be rebuild.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 15:23:48 GMT
As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. Your point is you want everyone to agree with your canon by saying Shepard is dead in front of the console. Not precisely, I'm pointing out that you have as much objection to a canon that's not "your canon" as I have. If you want me to meekly accept "your ending choice as canon," why can't you meekly accept my non-ending choice as canon? You won't... and that's my point. You're expecting others to accept what you won't accept yourself... and that's been the basis of this argument for years now.
Any canon choice made by Bioware effectively invalidates any other choice... makes it impossible for Shepard to have chosen it. So... why not invalidate them all by saying Shepard died before he/she could make a choice. What happens is totally up to Bioware. It could be a version of one of the choices offered Shepard or something completely different... the the Crucible just not firing and the next ME story being about how some other hero within the current cycle founda way to defeat the Reapers conventionally.
My preference is still that Bioware not ever choose any sort of canon ending to ME3 and simply advance the timeline far enough ahead to allow any variety of interim events to equalize the state of the galaxy. I'm quite happy if they just continue the story in Andromeda (which is effectively the canon choice Bioware had already made that you've also been basically unwilling to meekly accept). The above is my second choice. However, you shoot down both because you're bent on one thing - Destroy, Shepard lives becoming canon. You're simply unwilling to accept what you expect others to accept.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 15:24:18 GMT
As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. The new game would, of course, not be devoted to how the crucible was fired. It would be described in Bioware's canon beginning to that new game and whatever story they wanted to tell out of that canon event would follow from there. If people should accept a canon destroy ending without problems (which is what the "destroy" crowd keep telling us), why shouldn't they accept a "Shepard didn't fire the crucible" ending as canon? Maybe the story of the next game becomes how the current cycle eventually defeated the Reapers conventionally... because the Crucible never worked at all.
But wouldn't they still have to choose a canon? If shepard just dies at the controls, they still have to chose what canon to follow in order to continue, no matter who pushes the button. That just seems like more work to describe what happened if Shepard just dies at the controls. It would be better to just pick an ending, preferably the one the impacts the universe the least i.e destroy. I personally picked control, but destroy with or without Shepard is hands down the best canon to chose IMO. All that's lost is Ai, and that can be rebuild. See my response to themikefest.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 26, 2019 15:58:54 GMT
Your point is you want everyone to agree with your canon by saying Shepard is dead in front of the console. Not precisely, I'm pointing out that you have as much objection to a canon that's not "your canon" as I have. If you want me to meekly accept "your ending choice as canon," why can't you meekly accept my non-ending choice as canon? You won't... and that's my point. You're expecting others to accept what you won't accept yourself... and that's been the basis of this argument for years now.
Any canon choice made by Bioware effectively invalidates any other choice... makes it impossible for Shepard to have chosen it. So... why not invalidate them all by saying Shepard died before he/she could make a choice. What happens is totally up to Bioware. It could be a version of one of the choices offered Shepard or something completely different... the the Crucible just not firing and the next ME story being about how some other hero within the current cycle founda way to defeat the Reapers conventionally.
My preference is still that Bioware not ever choose any sort of canon ending to ME3 and simply advance the timeline far enough ahead to allow any variety of interim events to equalize the state of the galaxy. I'm quite happy if they just continue the story in Andromeda. The above is my second choice. However, you shoot down both because you're bent on one thing - Destroy, Shepard lives becoming canon. You're simply unwilling to accept what you expect others to accept.
This is why I think that any canon Bioware would pick should fall into the "none of the above" category. It should be something OTHER than Destroy, Control, Synthesis, or Refuse. Maybe borrow elements from them, but it shouldn't be one can canonically achieve in ME3. And Shepard's ultimate fate shouldn't be directly addressed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 17:09:39 GMT
Not precisely, I'm pointing out that you have as much objection to a canon that's not "your canon" as I have. If you want me to meekly accept "your ending choice as canon," why can't you meekly accept my non-ending choice as canon? You won't... and that's my point. You're expecting others to accept what you won't accept yourself... and that's been the basis of this argument for years now.
Any canon choice made by Bioware effectively invalidates any other choice... makes it impossible for Shepard to have chosen it. So... why not invalidate them all by saying Shepard died before he/she could make a choice. What happens is totally up to Bioware. It could be a version of one of the choices offered Shepard or something completely different... the the Crucible just not firing and the next ME story being about how some other hero within the current cycle founda way to defeat the Reapers conventionally.
My preference is still that Bioware not ever choose any sort of canon ending to ME3 and simply advance the timeline far enough ahead to allow any variety of interim events to equalize the state of the galaxy. I'm quite happy if they just continue the story in Andromeda. The above is my second choice. However, you shoot down both because you're bent on one thing - Destroy, Shepard lives becoming canon. You're simply unwilling to accept what you expect others to accept.
This is why I think that any canon Bioware would pick should fall into the "none of the above" category. It should be something OTHER than Destroy, Control, Synthesis, or Refuse. Maybe borrow elements from them, but it shouldn't be one can canonically achieve in ME3. And Shepard's ultimate fate shouldn't be directly addressed. Dead or unconscious matters not to me... Still possibly dreaming through the ME3 ending choices and still unable to actually fire the Crucible himself/herself.
My favorite ending is actually control... and I see a great way to incorporate it. Shepard dies or is unconscious. Catalyst ultimately fires the Crucible (because he can now that this cycle has kindly delivered it to the Citadel). The only logical choice the Catalyst would make is to continue controlling his minions. Perhaps (but not necessary), the Catalyst sees in Shepard some traits he could use to his advantage, so in the process he absorbs Shepard's essence into his own... and the story continues. Nothing is changed about the state of the galaxy... the Reapers themselves even still exist as they were.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Apr 26, 2019 17:15:04 GMT
Hard reboot.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 26, 2019 21:05:07 GMT
The longer this thread goes on the more convinced I become that letting ME stay dead and starting a new IP is the best choice. Maybe they'll learn from these past mistakes if they want a long term IP to grow and expand.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 27, 2019 22:06:01 GMT
If they added in a bunch of the cut content and a little more and took away some of the characters in ME2 (the guy who did zaeed's voice is dead so they could cut him out) In order to help deal with the problems that having so many variables created by that suicide mission (which led to some characters getting very little time in ME3 even if they were an LI). Then changed the ending to something that could be controlled better for future games...hell alot of people would buy it again just for a different ending. However add in a bunch of extra stuff and they can make a killing on it.
Look at skyrim remastered. They made the graphics a little better and made a "complete edition" (which you got already get the dlc and mods on consoles and PC) and made a killing on it. And that was ...what four years after the original skyrim came out.
I don't know if I would want a "hard reboot" but they could call it something like "Mass effect trilogy remastered plus" or something like that. I love the trilogy and don't want to see a clean sweep of it but extra stuff and a different ending(s) (their could be different variations of it like some character died and the geth or one race could be wiped out or something.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 27, 2019 22:08:19 GMT
The longer this thread goes on the more convinced I become that letting ME stay dead and starting a new IP is the best choice. Maybe they'll learn from these past mistakes if they want a long term IP to grow and expand. Why? People argue it's what they do. If you put a dozen people in a room some will still say the moon landing was fake and some other crazy stuff. Also the people on this forum number in the hundreds at most right? And despite what most say they would buy another ME game when it comes out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 1:32:53 GMT
The longer this thread goes on the more convinced I become that letting ME stay dead and starting a new IP is the best choice. Maybe they'll learn from these past mistakes if they want a long term IP to grow and expand. I thought that was the idea behind Anthem.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 28, 2019 14:40:15 GMT
The longer this thread goes on the more convinced I become that letting ME stay dead and starting a new IP is the best choice. Maybe they'll learn from these past mistakes if they want a long term IP to grow and expand. I thought that was the idea behind Anthem. Anthem was them looking at the backlash and hard feelings caused my Mass Effect and going "Hold my beer!"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 20:08:13 GMT
I thought that was the idea behind Anthem. Anthem was them looking at the backlash and hard feelings caused my Mass Effect and going "Hold my beer!" ... and wouldn't it just be a repeat of it now... if they opted to start another new IP at this point in time?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 28, 2019 21:47:04 GMT
Anthem was them looking at the backlash and hard feelings caused my Mass Effect and going "Hold my beer!" ... and wouldn't it just be a repeat of it now... if they opted to start another new IP at this point in time? Only if they keep making the same mistakes over and over. A new IP SHOULD in theory mean a fresh start.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 22:55:22 GMT
... and wouldn't it just be a repeat of it now... if they opted to start another new IP at this point in time? Only if they keep making the same mistakes over and over. A new IP SHOULD in theory mean a fresh start. Only if the internet doesn't trash it months before it releases in anticipation of "mistakes." - like they did with Andromeda and with Anthem (some even trashing that one out of fear that it might succeed and cause Bioware to move on to making multiplayer games only). If you don't believe me, just read the archives here. The fans have to also allow them to have a fresh start.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 1:58:50 GMT
Only if they keep making the same mistakes over and over. A new IP SHOULD in theory mean a fresh start. Only if the internet doesn't trash it months before it releases in anticipation of "mistakes." - like they did with Andromeda and with Anthem (some even trashing that one out of fear that it might succeed and cause Bioware to move on to making multiplayer games only). If you don't believe me, just read the archives here. The fans have to also allow them to have a fresh start. Fan skepticism doesn't magically make a game bad.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 3:00:54 GMT
Only if the internet doesn't trash it months before it releases in anticipation of "mistakes." - like they did with Andromeda and with Anthem (some even trashing that one out of fear that it might succeed and cause Bioware to move on to making multiplayer games only). If you don't believe me, just read the archives here. The fans have to also allow them to have a fresh start. Fan skepticism doesn't magically make a game bad. It doesn't magically make a game good either... but when it involves the fan essentially writing the story in their own head before the game is released, it does make it highly unlikely that the game will be about what the fan has built up their expectations for it to be... and it certainly won't be "a fresh start." It will likely be about something else and the fan will be forever trying to drag the company towards doing something exactly the way they did it before.
It's been a repeating pattern with the fans here... and I don't see it changing despite the fact that it hasn't succeeded in improving anything in over ten years... and I've seen a similar pattern also negatively affecting other game franchises as well.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 13:04:12 GMT
Fan skepticism doesn't magically make a game bad. It doesn't magically make a game good either... but when it involves the fan essentially writing the story in their own head before the game is released, it does make it highly unlikely that the game will be about what the fan has built up their expectations for it to be... and it certainly won't be "a fresh start." It will likely be about something else and the fan will be forever trying to drag the company towards doing something exactly the way they did it before.
It's been a repeating pattern with the fans here... and I don't see it changing despite the fact that it hasn't succeeded in improving anything in over ten years... and I've seen a similar pattern also negatively affecting other game franchises as well.
So if a company abandons doing what it was good at and starts doing something else badly, it's the fans' fault for having too high expectations/ Wut?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 16:49:41 GMT
It doesn't magically make a game good either... but when it involves the fan essentially writing the story in their own head before the game is released, it does make it highly unlikely that the game will be about what the fan has built up their expectations for it to be... and it certainly won't be "a fresh start." It will likely be about something else and the fan will be forever trying to drag the company towards doing something exactly the way they did it before.
It's been a repeating pattern with the fans here... and I don't see it changing despite the fact that it hasn't succeeded in improving anything in over ten years... and I've seen a similar pattern also negatively affecting other game franchises as well.
So if a company abandons doing what it was good at and starts doing something else badly, it's the fans' fault for having too high expectations/ Wut? It takes creative enthusiasm to make a great new game. The fans continually trying to lock entire companies into their past diminishes that enthusiasm within the company's staff... particularly because the fans tend to do it through brutal criticism... EVEN BEFORE RELEASE OF THE GAME. That's the key here that you keep ignoring. Anthem was criticized before its release BECAUSE people were afraid to see it succeed because they did not want Bioware moving on to multiplayer games. It was totally unknown at that time what sort of MMO Bioware could possibly produce. Andromeda was criticized heavily long BEFORE release because people did not want the franchise to move away from Shepard to a new galaxy not because of the facial animations or the unpolished state of the game at release.
The fans are adverse to new ideas... so, they'll get nothing innovative, fresh, interesting or new out of these gaming companies. They don't want the companies to write new stories... they want to limit the companies into rewriting their old stories and incorporate all the little "fanfiction" RPG moments the fans dream up for those old games. They didn't start playing Andromeda with a same curiosity they had for ME1, not because the game was so much worse... but because they had already decided long beforehand that they weren't about to accept anything but a remake of the OT itself... complete with Shepard in it. Why? Just because there's a Mass Effect in the name?
You're basically admitting this when you say it would have been better received if it wasn't billed as a Mass Effect game. I think more reasonable fans shouldn't care whether or not there's a Mass Effect in the title in the first place and certainly not to the point where they lose their objectivity when playing the game for the first time. Each game should be viewed as a NEW game... and maybe we'll wind up with something truly innovative instead of replaying the same RPG game skinned differently over and over and over and over, etc. They should have been allowed to move the Mass Effect franchise forward without "fixing" ME3's endings... and without having to drop Mass Effect from the title.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 18:03:02 GMT
So if a company abandons doing what it was good at and starts doing something else badly, it's the fans' fault for having too high expectations/ Wut? It takes creative enthusiasm to make a great new game. The fans continually trying to lock entire companies into their past diminishes that enthusiasm within the company's staff... particularly because the fans tend to do it through brutal criticism... EVEN BEFORE RELEASE OF THE GAME. That's the key here that you keep ignoring. Anthem was criticized before its release BECAUSE people were afraid to see it succeed because they did not want Bioware moving on to multiplayer games. It was totally unknown at that time what sort of MMO Bioware could possibly produce. Andromeda was criticized heavily long BEFORE release because people did not want the franchise to move away from Shepard to a new galaxy not because of the facial animations or the unpolished state of the game at release.
People have been complaining about Bioware doing MP games since ME3. But suddenly it's Anthem that gets cursed by it? Anthem isn't a "new idea" It's an old idea. A very, very old idea. Bioware jumped into an area other companies have been doing longer and better, and wonder why the reaction is tepid at best? Shoehorning another looter-shooter into an already packed market wasn't a smart idea. As for MEA, it was a classic case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. They tried to make it part of an established franchise while at the same time make it completely different. In addition, the mechanics of the game sucked, which didn't help matters. I don't get the obsession with playing Shepard, any more than I get the obsession with playing the Inquisitor, or Hawke, or the HoF. But don't pretend there wasn't much, much more to the complaints behind MEA than "Ryder's not Shepard" I'm saying people tend to go easier on "pilot episodes". Some growing pains are expected in a new franchise which people are less tolerant of in established ones. When you put "Mass Effect" in a title, you expect three games' worth of experience and improvements to go along with it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 18:27:54 GMT
It takes creative enthusiasm to make a great new game. The fans continually trying to lock entire companies into their past diminishes that enthusiasm within the company's staff... particularly because the fans tend to do it through brutal criticism... EVEN BEFORE RELEASE OF THE GAME. That's the key here that you keep ignoring. Anthem was criticized before its release BECAUSE people were afraid to see it succeed because they did not want Bioware moving on to multiplayer games. It was totally unknown at that time what sort of MMO Bioware could possibly produce. Andromeda was criticized heavily long BEFORE release because people did not want the franchise to move away from Shepard to a new galaxy not because of the facial animations or the unpolished state of the game at release.
People have been complaining about Bioware doing MP games since ME3. But suddenly it's Anthem that gets cursed by it? Anthem isn't a "new idea" It's an old idea. A very, very old idea. Bioware jumped into an area other companies have been doing longer and better, and wonder why the reaction is tepid at best? Shoehorning another looter-shooter into an already packed market wasn't a smart idea. As for MEA, it was a classic case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. They tried to make it part of an established franchise while at the same time make it completely different. In addition, the mechanics of the game sucked, which didn't help matters. I don't get the obsession with playing Shepard, any more than I get the obsession with playing the Inquisitor, or Hawke, or the HoF. But don't pretend there wasn't much, much more to the complaints behind MEA than "Ryder's not Shepard" I'm saying people tend to go easier on "pilot episodes". Some growing pains are expected in a new franchise which people are less tolerant of in established ones. When you put "Mass Effect" in a title, you expect three games' worth of experience and improvements to go along with it. ... and I'm saying they should start to play each new game as a new game... not "go easier" on pilot episodes. The company "experience" is the same whether it's game 4 of a "Trilogy" or game 1 of a new franchise. The Trilogy ended with ME3. Game 4 could have been rightfully a whole new ballgame... regardless of using Mass Effect in the name. Bioware owned rights to the name... using it is their right, not a case of trying to have their cake and eat it too. The name doesn't belong to the fans. It's the fans that keep trying to force, yes force, a continuation of THE TRILOGY... and, on top of that, they are trying to FORCE it to happen in a very specific way... destroy, Shepard lives.
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deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Phantom on Apr 29, 2019 18:30:11 GMT
without a customer base aka the fans, where would they make their money. Keep in mind that if a customer is unhappy with the product, then they will go somewhere else with their money. Like it or not, Money speaks.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 18:39:08 GMT
People have been complaining about Bioware doing MP games since ME3. But suddenly it's Anthem that gets cursed by it? Anthem isn't a "new idea" It's an old idea. A very, very old idea. Bioware jumped into an area other companies have been doing longer and better, and wonder why the reaction is tepid at best? Shoehorning another looter-shooter into an already packed market wasn't a smart idea. As for MEA, it was a classic case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. They tried to make it part of an established franchise while at the same time make it completely different. In addition, the mechanics of the game sucked, which didn't help matters. I don't get the obsession with playing Shepard, any more than I get the obsession with playing the Inquisitor, or Hawke, or the HoF. But don't pretend there wasn't much, much more to the complaints behind MEA than "Ryder's not Shepard" I'm saying people tend to go easier on "pilot episodes". Some growing pains are expected in a new franchise which people are less tolerant of in established ones. When you put "Mass Effect" in a title, you expect three games' worth of experience and improvements to go along with it. ... and I'm saying they should start to play each new game as a new game... not "go easier" on pilot episodes. The company "experience" is the same whether it's game 4 of a "Trilogy" or game 1 of a new franchise. The Trilogy ended with ME3. Game 4 could have been rightfully a whole new ballgame... regardless of using Mass Effect in the name. Bioware owned rights to the name... using it is their right, not a case of trying to have their cake and eat it too. The name doesn't belong to the fans. It's the fans that keep trying to force, yes force, a continuation of THE TRILOGY... and, on top of that, they are trying to FORCE it to happen in a very specific way... destroy, Shepard lives. First you say each game should be a whole new experience (something I certainly don't disagree with) And in the very next sentence you're all "Bioware can keep cranking out Mass Effect games all they want, be grateful and know your place, peasants!" So I'm obviously confused here.
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