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Post by themikefest on Apr 29, 2019 18:45:12 GMT
It's the fans that keep trying to force, yes force, a continuation of THE TRILOGY... and, on top of that, they are trying to FORCE it to happen in a very specific way... destroy, Shepard lives. Aren't you doing the same? You've mentioned that Shepard, your's specifically, is dead in front of the console. Have the next game explain how the crucible fired, or not, and what happened after that.
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Post by brfritos on Apr 29, 2019 18:51:25 GMT
People have been complaining about Bioware doing MP games since ME3. But suddenly it's Anthem that gets cursed by it? If only the two good doctors were still in the company...
OK, this was harsh. But I have the impression if they simply sold the company and left, Bioware franchises would gone bad even faster.
Ah EA... you never fail to disappoint.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 18:53:45 GMT
... and I'm saying they should start to play each new game as a new game... not "go easier" on pilot episodes. The company "experience" is the same whether it's game 4 of a "Trilogy" or game 1 of a new franchise. The Trilogy ended with ME3. Game 4 could have been rightfully a whole new ballgame... regardless of using Mass Effect in the name. Bioware owned rights to the name... using it is their right, not a case of trying to have their cake and eat it too. The name doesn't belong to the fans. It's the fans that keep trying to force, yes force, a continuation of THE TRILOGY... and, on top of that, they are trying to FORCE it to happen in a very specific way... destroy, Shepard lives. First you say each game should be a whole new experience (something I certainly don't disagree with) And in the very next sentence you're all "Bioware can keep cranking out Mass Effect games all they want, be grateful and know your place, peasants!" So I'm obviously confused here. I'm saying that the company has every right to use the Mass Effect name on a new story that doesn't continue the Trilogy... a spin off, if you prefer. Star Trek: Voyager was in a completely different quadrant and involved a completely different crew. If Roddenberry & co. were held to keeping Kirk and the Enterprise D in every Star Trek story, there would be a lot of great stories not told in that universe and the whole Star Trek "idea" would have died years ago.
A spin off should be received with the same open-mindedness and expectations as a "pilot" - but that's not what happened with Andromeda BECAUSE the fans were simply not prepared to let the Trilogy end the way Bioware wanted to end it... as they DID end it in ME3. The game fell under heavy criticism long before release BECAUSE of this as well... and THAT's because the fans were (and are still) being unreasonable about that.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 19:01:31 GMT
First you say each game should be a whole new experience (something I certainly don't disagree with) And in the very next sentence you're all "Bioware can keep cranking out Mass Effect games all they want, be grateful and know your place, peasants!" So I'm obviously confused here. I'm saying that the company has every right to use the Mass Effect name on a new story that doesn't continue the Trilogy... a spin off, if you prefer. Star Trek: Voyager was in a completely different quadrant and involved a completely different crew. If Roddenberry was held to keeping Kirk and the Enterprise D in every Star Trek story, there would be a lot of great stories not told in that universe and the whole Star Trek "idea" would have died years ago.
A spin off should be received with the same open-mindedness and expectations as a "pilot" - but that's not what happened with Andromeda BECAUSE the fans were simply not prepared to let the Trilogy end the way Bioware wanted to end it... as they DID end it in ME3. The game fell under heavy criticism long before release BECAUSE of this as well... and THAT's because the fans were (and are still) being unreasonable about that. You realize "Voyager is considered one of the lesser Star Trek series, right? And I already asserted that "Ryder's not Shepard" was NOT a driving force behind the dislike Andromeda received, as opposed to such details as shallow characters, cr*ppy profile system, unfinished graphics, uninteresting villain, laughable premise, and generally terrible things done to established Mass Effect lore. But please, tell me how these critiques are unreasonable because Shepard wasn't the protagonist, and that's what we REALLY wanted.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 19:01:53 GMT
It's the fans that keep trying to force, yes force, a continuation of THE TRILOGY... and, on top of that, they are trying to FORCE it to happen in a very specific way... destroy, Shepard lives. Aren't you doing the same? You've mentioned that Shepard, your's specifically, is dead in front of the console. Have the next game explain how the crucible fired, or not, and what happened after that. How many times do I have to say that my PREFERENCE is that they simply carry on the story in Andromeda however THEY planned to carry it on when they started that game?
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Post by Phantom on Apr 29, 2019 19:02:36 GMT
Please disregard for it was a stupider than average post on my part.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 19:05:05 GMT
I'm saying that the company has every right to use the Mass Effect name on a new story that doesn't continue the Trilogy... a spin off, if you prefer. Star Trek: Voyager was in a completely different quadrant and involved a completely different crew. If Roddenberry was held to keeping Kirk and the Enterprise D in every Star Trek story, there would be a lot of great stories not told in that universe and the whole Star Trek "idea" would have died years ago.
A spin off should be received with the same open-mindedness and expectations as a "pilot" - but that's not what happened with Andromeda BECAUSE the fans were simply not prepared to let the Trilogy end the way Bioware wanted to end it... as they DID end it in ME3. The game fell under heavy criticism long before release BECAUSE of this as well... and THAT's because the fans were (and are still) being unreasonable about that. You realize "Voyager is considered one of the lesser Star Trek series, right? And I already asserted that "Ryder's not Shepard" was NOT a driving force behind the dislike Andromeda received, as opposed to such details as shallow characters, cr*ppy profile system, unfinished graphics, uninteresting villain, laughable premise, and generally terrible things done to established Mass Effect lore. But please, tell me how these critiques are unreasonable because Shepard wasn't the protagonist, and that's what we REALLY wanted. You realize it lasted 7 seasons, right?... and it contains some of my favorite stories. Go with TNG or DSN, if you prefer... neither one is about Kirk and the Enterprise D. Spin-offs happen all the time... why should any Mass Effect spin off have to drop the Mass Effect name just to be received with any sort of objectivity from fans?
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Post by Phantom on Apr 29, 2019 19:06:48 GMT
You realize "Voyager is considered one of the lesser Star Trek series, right? And I already asserted that "Ryder's not Shepard" was NOT a driving force behind the dislike Andromeda received, as opposed to such details as shallow characters, cr*ppy profile system, unfinished graphics, uninteresting villain, laughable premise, and generally terrible things done to established Mass Effect lore. But please, tell me how these critiques are unreasonable because Shepard wasn't the protagonist, and that's what we REALLY wanted. You realize it lasted 7 seasons, right?... and it contains some of my favorite stories. Go with TNG or DSN, if you prefer... neither one is about Kirk and the Enterprise D. Well Do you realize that Kirk Never commanded the Enterprise D? Picard commanded both Enterprise D and E. Kirk commanded the Enterprise A.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 29, 2019 19:09:14 GMT
Aren't you doing the same? You've mentioned that Shepard, your's specifically, is dead in front of the console. Have the next game explain how the crucible fired, or not, and what happened after that. How many times do I have to say that my PREFERENCE is that they simply carry on the story in Andromeda however THEY planned to carry it on when they started that game? That may be your preference, but how many times have you said for them to have the next game explain how the crucible was used, or not, when Shepard, your Shepard, is dead in front of the console?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 19:12:22 GMT
You realize it lasted 7 seasons, right?... and it contains some of my favorite stories. Go with TNG or DSN, if you prefer... neither one is about Kirk and the Enterprise D. Well Do you realize that Kirk Never commanded the Enterprise D? Picard commanded both Enterprise D and E. Kirk commanded the Enterprise A. Sorry. Enterprise A then... I stand corrected. Never really cared for the first series anyways and it didn't break my heart when it was cancelled so quickly. Still doesn't change the basic point. What was the designation of the first Enterprise... the one commanded by Archer then?
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Post by Phantom on Apr 29, 2019 19:13:59 GMT
Archer's Enterprise is the NX-01
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 19:14:42 GMT
How many times do I have to say that my PREFERENCE is that they simply carry on the story in Andromeda however THEY planned to carry it on when they started that game? That may be your preference, but how many times have you said for them to have the next game explain how the crucible was used, or not, when Shepard, your Shepard, is dead in front of the console? If they roll to you guys demanding a continuation of the Trilogy... then I prefer they do it in a way that doesn't expunge the bulk of the endings they created in ME3... unless they expunge them all (including your beloved Shepard lives destroy ending). Shepard dying in front of the console accomplishes that end. Having the Crucible fail to work is one ending that wasn't an option in ME3 and it allows the Reaper war to just continue into another episode with a different hero. If it's fair for me to accept stashing all my endings in that "alternate reality" because the "details changed" - you can do the same.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 19:28:32 GMT
You realize it lasted 7 seasons, right?... and it contains some of my favorite stories. Go with TNG or DSN, if you prefer... neither one is about Kirk and the Enterprise D. Well Do you realize that Kirk Never commanded the Enterprise D? Picard commanded both Enterprise D and E. Kirk commanded the Enterprise A. ANd the original NCC-1701 NoLetter
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 19:35:36 GMT
You realize "Voyager is considered one of the lesser Star Trek series, right? And I already asserted that "Ryder's not Shepard" was NOT a driving force behind the dislike Andromeda received, as opposed to such details as shallow characters, cr*ppy profile system, unfinished graphics, uninteresting villain, laughable premise, and generally terrible things done to established Mass Effect lore. But please, tell me how these critiques are unreasonable because Shepard wasn't the protagonist, and that's what we REALLY wanted. You realize it lasted 7 seasons, right?... and it contains some of my favorite stories. Go with TNG or DSN, if you prefer... neither one is about Kirk and the Enterprise D. Spin-offs happen all the time... why should any Mass Effect spin off have to drop the Mass Effect name just to be received with any sort of objectivity from fans? Because people are not objective by nature?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 19:36:58 GMT
Well Do you realize that Kirk Never commanded the Enterprise D? Picard commanded both Enterprise D and E. Kirk commanded the Enterprise A. ANd the original NCC-1701 NoLetter OK. My point is still the same... Star Trek had 3 spin offs that were essentially equally successful... lasting about 7 seasons each (TNG lasting a little longer than the other 2)... and none of them were about the original cast and crew and at least 2 of them deviated significantly from the first. Had the show's writers been held to the original as strigently as you seem to want to hold Bioware to ME1's ideas... there is a lot of rather good stories we would have missed out on since the fans would have vehemently protested the spin offs long before release just because the producers were trying to capitalize on the franchise name?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 29, 2019 20:14:49 GMT
If they roll to you guys demanding a continuation of the Trilogy... then I prefer they do it in a way that doesn't expunge the bulk of the endings they created in ME3.. I don't think you could expunge them, if you tried. They're all the same cinematic. unless they expunge them all (including your beloved Shepard lives destroy ending). Shepard dying in front of the console accomplishes that end So restarting from an earlier base? Having the Crucible fail to work is one ending that wasn't an option in ME3 and it allows the Reaper war to just continue into another episode with a different hero. Technically, refusal was just that and it ended in failure. We know we can't fight the Reapers and there's no way to circumvent that. Introduction of second macguffin? I think we'd be a little too late in the war for that. Plus, it doesn't change the established fact that not firing the crucible ends in annihilation. Even so, be that as it may, how about we make a sequel that doesn't piss off the fanbase? How about we make a game that mends it? Right now, whether you, EA or Bioware likes it or not, there is a huge divide in the fanbase and this fanabse, which shielded Bioware from criticism in the past, warranted or not, is no longer going its lengths to do so, nor does it promote games like it use to, due to this divide. In fact, this divide causes a lot of arguments between fanbase members, not just here, but in other discussion boards, much bigger than this place. Very heated arguments, which further hurts the Bioware name. On top of that, you've got reviews bashing these games, gaming news outlets absolutely thrashing them, Andromeda and Anthem tanking critically and a slew of dirty laundry being outed in the media, like the Schreier articles, not to mention the unhealthy internal relation problems in Bioware. And on top of that, you have EA that's placed Bioware in the very bottom of their corporate food chain. So, without resources, without technical support, understaffed, outstressed and overworked, you want them to take Andromeda, which is a literal laughing stock, hell, even Pewdiepie ripped that game a new one, and sell people the pitch that they're making a new one. Listen, I may not have a marketing degree, but right now, I can promise you, that is a bad idea. That game, right off the bat, is dead. It will be buried so deep by the memers and the clickbait youtubers it's not even funny. That will be such an uphill battle, I don't think victory will be attainable. And even if it is, Bioware will pay for it with even more stress casualties. For their sake, I don't want them to do this. I think that, at this point, it will be suicide.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 20:21:39 GMT
ANd the original NCC-1701 NoLetter OK. My point is still the same... Star Trek had 3 spin offs that were essentially equally successful... lasting about 7 seasons each (TNG lasting a little longer than the other 2)... and none of them were about the original cast and crew and at least 2 of them deviated significantly from the first. Had the show's writers been held to the original as strigently as you seem to want to hold Bioware to ME1's ideas... there is a lot of rather good stories we would have missed out on since the fans would have vehemently protested the spin offs long before release just because the producers were trying to capitalize on the franchise name? There's a difference though. One you keep missing. The Star Trek spinoffs actually had qualities that people liked. They won over crowds who were initially suspicious, at least enough to be successful.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 20:42:16 GMT
OK. My point is still the same... Star Trek had 3 spin offs that were essentially equally successful... lasting about 7 seasons each (TNG lasting a little longer than the other 2)... and none of them were about the original cast and crew and at least 2 of them deviated significantly from the first. Had the show's writers been held to the original as strigently as you seem to want to hold Bioware to ME1's ideas... there is a lot of rather good stories we would have missed out on since the fans would have vehemently protested the spin offs long before release just because the producers were trying to capitalize on the franchise name? There's a difference though. One you keep missing. The Star Trek spinoffs actually had qualities that people liked. They won over crowds who were initially suspicious, at least enough to be successful. The Star Trek spin offs never met with the same sort of vehement objections to them that the Andromeda one did BEFORE release... BEFORE there was any opportunity for people to ascertain whether there were things people liked... then. For one thing, the Internet Youtube and Metacritic pile on wasn't a "thing" back then. If a person came here shortly after release and stated that they liked the game, they were IMMEDIATELY met with an onslaught basically telling them they had no taste, etc. There are many things I genuinely like about ME:A and a lot of that is because I actually played the game rather than listening to a bunch of naysayers who had erroneous ideas about the game based on only playing a few hours and all the while fishing for things they could meme to death criticizing... and now more than a few are "reappraising" those stances. A few aren't, but the piling on crowd have moved onto to other games - repeating the pattern though; and it's that pattern I've been saying is generally detrimental to the "creative energy" of the industry.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 20:46:19 GMT
If they roll to you guys demanding a continuation of the Trilogy... then I prefer they do it in a way that doesn't expunge the bulk of the endings they created in ME3.. I don't think you could expunge them, if you tried. They're all the same cinematic. unless they expunge them all (including your beloved Shepard lives destroy ending). Shepard dying in front of the console accomplishes that end So restarting from an earlier base? Having the Crucible fail to work is one ending that wasn't an option in ME3 and it allows the Reaper war to just continue into another episode with a different hero. Technically, refusal was just that and it ended in failure. We know we can't fight the Reapers and there's no way to circumvent that. Introduction of second macguffin? I think we'd be a little too late in the war for that. Plus, it doesn't change the established fact that not firing the crucible ends in annihilation. Even so, be that as it may, how about we make a sequel that doesn't piss off the fanbase? How about we make a game that mends it? Right now, whether you, EA or Bioware likes it or not, there is a huge divide in the fanbase and this fanabse, which shielded Bioware from criticism in the past, warranted or not, is no longer going its lengths to do so, nor does it promote games like it use to, due to this divide. In fact, this divide causes a lot of arguments between fanbase members, not just here, but in other discussion boards, much bigger than this place. Very heated arguments, which further hurts the Bioware name. On top of that, you've got reviews bashing these games, gaming news outlets absolutely thrashing them, Andromeda and Anthem tanking critically and a slew of dirty laundry being outed in the media, like the Schreier articles, not to mention the unhealthy internal relation problems in Bioware. And on top of that, you have EA that's placed Bioware in the very bottom of their corporate food chain. So, without resources, without technical support, understaffed, outstressed and overworked, you want them to take Andromeda, which is a literal laughing stock, hell, even Pewdiepie ripped that game a new one, and sell people the pitch that they're making a new one. Listen, I may not have a marketing degree, but right now, I can promise you, that is a bad idea. That game, right off the bat, is dead. It will be buried so deep by the memers and the clickbait youtubers it's not even funny. That will be such an uphill battle, I don't think victory will be attainable. And even if it is, Bioware will pay for it with even more stress casualties. For their sake, I don't want them to do this. I think that, at this point, it will be suicide. Sure, it's refusal ending without a refusal. Dying and being unable to is different than not wanting to.
I'll repeat - My absolute preference is that they just continue with THEIR plan - a plan they no doubt devised when they CHOSE to go with the Andromeda route. Andromeda was not such a disaster as you're wanting to trump it up to be and it is a story that has potential to go forward in many different ways and take on any tone and any character for the hero. The criticisms of Andromeda are not about anything permanent that needs to affect the next story. A continuation of the OT has an equal chance of being received poorly and even a greater chance because it will be expected to have Shepard as the hero different people have solidified him/her into being in their own minds. Seeing that Shepard image not realized in a subsequent will be more devastating to the franchise than anything in Andromeda. Keep in mind - it's not the same people who wrote ME1 that would be writing MEOT: take 2. It would be the same people who wrote Andromeda. They can probably write a better Ryder... but chances are they could write a worse Shepard than the idol everyone has in mind... so, careful what you wish for.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 29, 2019 20:48:03 GMT
Having the Crucible fail to work is one ending that wasn't an option in ME3 and it allows the Reaper war to just continue into another episode with a different hero. Or after Shepard learns the thing is part of the Citadel and controls the reapers, he/she refuses. Shepard calls for a shuttle. Back on the SR2, he/she explains to Hackett that destroying the Citadel might stop the harvest. Shepard jumps in the drivers seat, and while listening to AC/DC - Highway To He**, at full volume, excellent , sends the station into the sun. After that, the reapers are seen heading back to darkspace.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 29, 2019 20:48:57 GMT
There's a difference though. One you keep missing. The Star Trek spinoffs actually had qualities that people liked. They won over crowds who were initially suspicious, at least enough to be successful. The Star Trek spin offs never met with the same sort of vehement objections to them that the Andromeda one did BEFORE release... BEFORE there was any opportunity for people to ascertain whether there were things people liked... then. For one thing, the Internet Youtube and Metacritic pile on wasn't a "thing" back then. If a person came here shortly after release and stated that they liked the game, they were IMMEDIATELY met with an onslaught basically telling them they had no taste, etc. There are many things I genuinely like about ME:A and a lot of that is because I actually played the game rather than listening to a bunch of naysayers who had erroneous ideas about the game based on only playing a few hours and all the while fishing for things they could meme to death criticizing... and now more than a few are "reappraising" those stances. A few aren't, but the piling on crowd have moved onto to other games - repeating the pattern though; and it's that pattern I've been saying is generally detrimental to the "creative energy" of the industry. So your comparison with Star Trek is baseless? Now I'm REALLY confused. Especially since there WAS suspicion regarding each spinoff, the JJ Abrams movies, and the current Discovery series. Edit: And there's no small amount of sneering fanboys here who think not liking everything Bioware has to offer makes you "butthurt", "a hater" or "salty" Some of that comes from the very people running this place. So...yeah.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 29, 2019 20:55:04 GMT
Sure, it's refusal ending without a refusal. Dying and being unable to is different than not wanting to. But that still ends the same way. There is no way out. Complete annihilation of the cycle. I'll repeat - My absolute preference is that they just continue with THEIR plan Their plan was, originally, a prequel. Not Andromeda. They only made a "sequel" when the fanbase asked for a sequel. So, if what you're saying is true, then prequel, here we come. Source of prequel being the original plan is the Schreier article on Andromeda. Andromeda, according to you, should never have existed then, as that was never the plan.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 21:02:50 GMT
Sure, it's refusal ending without a refusal. Dying and being unable to is different than not wanting to. But that still ends the same way. There is no way out. Complete annihilation of the cycle. I'll repeat - My absolute preference is that they just continue with THEIR plan Their plan was, originally, a prequel. Not Andromeda. They only made a "sequel" when the fanbase asked for a sequel. So, if what you're saying is true, then prequel, here we come. Source of prequel being the original plan is the Schreier article on Andromeda. Andromeda, according to you, should never have existed then, as that was never the plan. They ultimately CHOSE to write Andromeda and they obviously had a plan to continue that story. They did not ultimately choose to write a prequel. As it is, we are in Andromeda... it IS canon to the franchise now because it WAS publsihed. A prequel has not been published. One could be done if they choose that. It's not my preference, but I would probably prefer it over a Shepard continuation with a canon ME3 ending choice. If they put Shepard in a prequel, people could still be very disappointed... because it would essentially eliminate 2 of the 3 Shepard backstories (spacer, colonist, earthborn) and 2 of the 3 personality backgrounds (war hero, sole survivor, ruthless). I would bet they default to earthborn sole survivor.
PS: It doesn't necessarily end the same way. That's up to Bioware to tell the story... devise a different way to get out of the situation they set up for the franchise.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 29, 2019 21:04:37 GMT
Voyager for example starts off from Deep Space Nine. It is a Federation Starship with almost the same capabilities as Picard's Enterprise (just a few improvements like bio-neural gel packs to augment the isolinear computers, a slightly faster warp drive and specced for different mission parameters). The ship's mission (capturing a Maquis vessel) fit right into the current events established in DS9 at the time.
It didn't suddenly have a magic transwarp drive that was just never heard of before or after in the alpha quadrant or another Data like android that we never heard of before or after. They also didn't try to fly off on their own into another galaxy for no reason whatsoever with a lot of stupid people that didn't seem to know what they were doing.
Andromeda did all the equivalents of these things in the ME universe and THAT was the main problem with it. If you want to find a proper Star Trek analogy to the Andromeda retcons that really bothered a lot of fans, me included, than talk about the new Discovery series and their spore drive. That is the best equivalent to the ODSY drive and it also caught a lot of backlash. Same for other retcons like Spock's adopted sister, etc.
I am not a big Voyager fan but one has to give it that it fit into the established TNG lore pretty well. Andromeda doesn't fit into the Mass Effect lore at all. I don't dislike the game itself (see my recent posts in the Andromeda section) but the way they forced the Andromeda premise into the ME lore was atrocious and non of the 90s ST Series did anything even approaching that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 21:12:12 GMT
Voyager for example starts off from Deep Space Nine. It is a Federation Starship with almost the same capabilities as Picard's Enterprise (just a few improvements like biomimetic neuro-gel packs to augment the isolinear computers and a slightly better arp drive and specced for different mission parameters). The ship's mission (capturing a Mquis vessel) fit right into the current events established in DS9 at the time. It didn't suddenly have a magic transwarp drive the was just never heard of before or after in the alpha quadrant or another Data like android that we never heard of before or after. They also didn't try to fly off on their own into another galaxyfor no reason whatsoever with a lot of stupid people that didn't seem to know what they were doing. Andromeda did all the equivalents of these things in the ME universe and THAT was the main problem with it. If you want to find a proper Star Trek analogy to the Andromeda retcons that really bothered a lot of fans, me included, than talk about the new Discovery series and their spore drive. That is the best equivalent to the ODSY drive and it also caught a lot of backlash. Same for other retcons like Spock's adopted sister, etc. I am not a big Voyager fan but one has to give it that it fit into the established TNG lore pretty well. Andromeda doesn't fit into the Mass Effect lore at all. I don't dislike the game itself (see my recent posts in the Andromeda section) but they way they forced the Andromeda premise into the ME lore was atrocious and non of the 90s ST Series did anything even approaching that. Voyeger STILL lasted 7 seasons... bringing it back for Season 2 of it, didn't forever trash the franchise. Andromeda can still be continued and wind up being successful. It's not the insta-turnoff that people like to claim it would be. Franchise names are regularly used for spin offs that are very different from the originals. It's not an unforgivable "sin" that Bioware used Mass Effect in Andromeda's name.
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