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Post by pessimistpanda on May 11, 2019 5:30:14 GMT
There are numerous accounts of children stealing from their parents to buy digital goods in games like Fortnite. That's a different issue that I don't think gaming regs are going to alleviate just by making items/mechancis illegal since STEALING IS ALREADY ILLEGAL and is apparently not enough of a deterrent. It will decrease the motivation to steal by getting rid of the thing in modern games that lights up the addiction centres of child brains.
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Post by duckley on May 11, 2019 16:14:10 GMT
For crying out loud - lets protect young people from spending money on games - but not from dangers they face going to school everyday. Priorities?
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Post by smilesja on May 11, 2019 16:38:06 GMT
Parents need to be responsible for their children. This is just like when Jack Thompson blamed violent video games for children's violent behavior.
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Post by Polka Dot on May 11, 2019 16:56:03 GMT
Correct me if I am wrong: considering that you have to pay with a credit card and that a minor cannot have a credit card (at least where I live) shouldn't they already be protected by default? A lot of minors have part time jobs and/or their own bank accounts with atm/debit cards that can be used just like credit cards. Offhand, I don't know of anything that prevents minors from buying prepaid cards, either. Sometimes parents will add their kids as authorized users to their own credit card accounts, as it helps them build credit. And some give their kids allowance via prepaid debit cards. Apparently, in some environments, they're being pressured/bullied into buying digital goods in games.
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Post by cankiie on May 11, 2019 19:16:58 GMT
Parents need to be responsible for their children. This is just like when Jack Thompson blamed violent video games for children's violent behavior. Except there was nothing but assumption, a bad correlation made. Lootboxes at the very least have something against it, in that it has psycological effects similar to that of gambling, according to an australian study, I personally believe it needs more study to be set in stone, but there is ground work. Either way, in some sense I don't see why people would complain about the risk of having lootboxes and microtransactions potentially removed from all games. We'd start getting games that actually competes based on the quality of the game, rather than the huge corps relying on aforementioned microtransactions and lootboxes to rake in money even after releasing a terrible product. It is the only reason indie-games are so superior to that of the triple AAA games in terms of quality, the indie-games relies on quality. In a sense it is a boon. It just sucks for all the freenium games and mobile games. But we all know who are to blame for this shit
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Post by garrusfan1 on May 11, 2019 20:48:21 GMT
There are numerous accounts of children stealing from their parents to buy digital goods in games like Fortnite. That's a different issue that I don't think gaming regs are going to alleviate just by making items/mechancis illegal since STEALING IS ALREADY ILLEGAL and is apparently not enough of a deterrent. Yeah I think when the kid is STEALING the credit card from their parents then that needs to be addressed before you go after what they buy.
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Post by garrusfan1 on May 11, 2019 21:03:34 GMT
Parents need to be responsible for their children. This is just like when Jack Thompson blamed violent video games for children's violent behavior. Except there was nothing but assumption, a bad correlation made. Lootboxes at the very least have something against it, in that it has psycological effects similar to that of gambling, according to an australian study, I personally believe it needs more study to be set in stone, but there is ground work. Either way, in some sense I don't see why people would complain about the risk of having lootboxes and microtransactions potentially removed from all games. We'd start getting games that actually competes based on the quality of the game, rather than the huge corps relying on aforementioned microtransactions and lootboxes to rake in money even after releasing a terrible product. It is the only reason indie-games are so superior to that of the triple AAA games in terms of quality, the indie-games relies on quality. In a sense it is a boon. It just sucks for all the freenium games and mobile games. But we all know who are to blame for this shit The fact that this is what the government chooses to regulate out of everything else is what makes people mad. However if you want to get technical then facebook and other forums like that cause the same feeling. When you get a like or a good comment you feel good. Even though it really means nothing and yet when you don't you feel like crap. It causes an incredible addiction which so many people have. Honestly can you think of another reason why so many people post pictures of food and stuff. And facebook researched this stuff so people would get addicted to it. The irony that facebook gets away with it with a stern talking too and then promise to fix their mistakes is ridiculous and has been repeated several times now.
So while I would be happy to see lootboxes gone I just have a very hard time dealing with this being the thing the government actually regulates
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Post by cankiie on May 11, 2019 23:57:45 GMT
Except there was nothing but assumption, a bad correlation made. Lootboxes at the very least have something against it, in that it has psycological effects similar to that of gambling, according to an australian study, I personally believe it needs more study to be set in stone, but there is ground work. Either way, in some sense I don't see why people would complain about the risk of having lootboxes and microtransactions potentially removed from all games. We'd start getting games that actually competes based on the quality of the game, rather than the huge corps relying on aforementioned microtransactions and lootboxes to rake in money even after releasing a terrible product. It is the only reason indie-games are so superior to that of the triple AAA games in terms of quality, the indie-games relies on quality. In a sense it is a boon. It just sucks for all the freenium games and mobile games. But we all know who are to blame for this shit The fact that this is what the government chooses to regulate out of everything else is what makes people mad. However if you want to get technical then facebook and other forums like that cause the same feeling. When you get a like or a good comment you feel good. Even though it really means nothing and yet when you don't you feel like crap. It causes an incredible addiction which so many people have. Honestly can you think of another reason why so many people post pictures of food and stuff. And facebook researched this stuff so people would get addicted to it. The irony that facebook gets away with it with a stern talking too and then promise to fix their mistakes is ridiculous and has been repeated several times now.
So while I would be happy to see lootboxes gone I just have a very hard time dealing with this being the thing the government actually regulates
I am aware of the social media effects on people. It is why millenials who grew up on social media are basically at war with each other over the whole cultural thing, social media makes it far more addicting to be virtue signaling, to pretend that you care about a subject for the sake of likes, to pretend that there is something wrong in the world so that you can pretend and get likes. I know that, many don't. Anyway, I agree with you, although I don't think for the politicians this is so much for virtue signaling, a sense of feeling good. But we now have two generations who grew up with video games as a mainstream hobby, a huge chunk of people in this day and age play video games. I think the politicians have noted the fight there is against these lootboxes and microtransactions and in their mind it immediately pops up. "VOTERS! I CAN GET VOTES! VOTES! VOTES! VOTES!" People should have listened several years ago, when these practises by the big gaming corps became more and more prominent, if people had listened and if people start listening, government regulations will become less of a risk. Basically, for the consumers - stop encouraging microtransactions, stop buying games that have microtransactions in them for absolutely no reason (Any game that does not require the company to provide moderation, servers, etc), for the game publishers and developers - stop having microtransactions, lootboxes, all of the crap in your freaking game if they are not there to actually pay for the game's continued expenses. If above is way too hard because people, as I have noted, just can't keep their own tools in their pants, just quit the lootboxes.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 12, 2019 1:38:04 GMT
For crying out loud - lets protect young people from spending money on games - but not from dangers they face going to school everyday. Priorities? And how does one prevent the other?
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 12, 2019 2:06:32 GMT
This "parents should be responsible" argument is total nonsense. It's not practical or fair. Did OUR parents keep us handcuffed to them every minute of the day? Are they to blame for shitty things we did as kids? To imply that parents are simply negligent, especially in today's economic climate, where both parents likely need to work, is gross.
The lootbox business model is PREDATORY. It exploits innate human psychology to prey on both children and adults. It's addictive by design, and it should be regulated. Liquor stores, tobacconists and casinos are legally required to make sure none of their clientele are minors, and the same laws should apply here.
These companies aren't victims, and don't deserve sympathy. Funny how you all flip your shit over a game having a low framerate or being 'too gay', but are perfectly fine with publishers behaving in ACTUALLY unethical ways in service of taking money from the most vulnerable members of society, goddamn children. What the fuck.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 12, 2019 3:25:24 GMT
This "parents should be responsible" argument is total nonsense. It's not practical or fair. Did OUR parents keep us handcuffed to them every minute of the day? Are they to blame for shitty things we did as kids? To imply that parents are simply negligent, especially in today's economic climate, where both parents likely need to work, is gross. The lootbox business model is PREDATORY. It exploits innate human psychology to prey on both children and adults. It's addictive by design, and it should be regulated. Liquor stores, tobacconists and casinos are legally required to make sure none of their clientele are minors, and the same laws should apply here. These companies aren't victims, and don't deserve sympathy. Funny how you all flip your shit over a game having a low framerate or being 'too gay', but are perfectly fine with publishers behaving in ACTUALLY unethical ways in service of taking money from the most vulnerable members of society, goddamn children. What the fuck. Depends on what things you are referring to. Again, consoles and computers have things that can prevent kids from using their credit cards as simple as making a password needed before being able to use it. Simple solution to a simple problem. If a parent can't spare the five minutes it would take to set that up, clearly they don't care that much if their kid does it. If they do care but don't do anything about it, then yes it is on them. And what's gross is people focusing on this non-issue rather than the thousands of kids who need things like food and shelter. Those kids are the vulnerable ones that should get the attention.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 12, 2019 4:08:58 GMT
This "parents should be responsible" argument is total nonsense. It's not practical or fair. Did OUR parents keep us handcuffed to them every minute of the day? Are they to blame for shitty things we did as kids? To imply that parents are simply negligent, especially in today's economic climate, where both parents likely need to work, is gross. The lootbox business model is PREDATORY. It exploits innate human psychology to prey on both children and adults. It's addictive by design, and it should be regulated. Liquor stores, tobacconists and casinos are legally required to make sure none of their clientele are minors, and the same laws should apply here. These companies aren't victims, and don't deserve sympathy. Funny how you all flip your shit over a game having a low framerate or being 'too gay', but are perfectly fine with publishers behaving in ACTUALLY unethical ways in service of taking money from the most vulnerable members of society, goddamn children. What the fuck. Depends on what things you are referring to. Again, consoles and computers have things that can prevent kids from using their credit cards as simple as making a password needed before being able to use it. Simple solution to a simple problem. If a parent can't spare the five minutes it would take to set that up, clearly they don't care that much if their kid does it. If they do care but don't do anything about it, then yes it is on them. And what's gross is people focusing on this non-issue rather than the thousands of kids who need things like food and shelter. Those kids are the vulnerable ones that should get the attention. It's not one or the other, knock it off with the what-about-ism already.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 12, 2019 4:22:32 GMT
Depends on what things you are referring to. Again, consoles and computers have things that can prevent kids from using their credit cards as simple as making a password needed before being able to use it. Simple solution to a simple problem. If a parent can't spare the five minutes it would take to set that up, clearly they don't care that much if their kid does it. If they do care but don't do anything about it, then yes it is on them. And what's gross is people focusing on this non-issue rather than the thousands of kids who need things like food and shelter. Those kids are the vulnerable ones that should get the attention. It's not one or the other, knock it off with the what-about-ism already. How about you address the point I brought up about how computers and consoles can already stop this first? And if this goes to a committee or the floor, then yeah it is one or the other since all that time talking about this could’ve been used for actual issues.
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Post by colfoley on May 12, 2019 5:59:39 GMT
Lootboxes are about as preadatory as chocolate cake you aren't sure the filling of.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on May 12, 2019 9:30:10 GMT
Lootboxes are about as preadatory as chocolate cake you aren't sure the filling of. Even if the filling was random, you still had a tasty chocolate cake. Lootboxes often repeatedly give low quality duplicates or consumables that you don't want or need, meaning you wasted your money or paid way too much for what you got. What about turning the tables and letting gamers buy games with a money lootbox instead of a fixed price? "Contains 5 money items, one guaranteed uncommon ($10) plus an increased chance at a rare ($20)"?
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on May 12, 2019 9:31:57 GMT
For once I agree with the Panda. It is not like the government are shredding a paper with one issue just because another issue comes up.
You have a to-do-list.
Government can have a similar "to-do-list"
So they will eventually get through every single issue... eventually.
That said.
We can avoid getting the government involved following this bill failing to pass.
Start listening to people who tell you that microtransactions and lootboxes are bad for the industry.
We have a couple of ways to get some proper games back into our hands yet again.
Self-regulation. Market pressure Government legislation.
Self-regulation is never going to happen, the ESRB is already a gaming-self-regulating system and it have absolutely failed.
Market pressure, that would require a vast majority of people who play video games to finally get their heads out of their asses and stop encouraging the inclusion of microtransactions and lootboxes into the games unless they are in fact actually necessary (Watch Apex: Legends, Fortnite, World of Warcraft... well, lootboxes can go to hell, microtransactions are fine)
We already have evidence that self-regulation and market pressure will never... ever... ever... happen. (okay, fair is fair, we actually had A LOT of market pressure for Star Wars: Battlefront 2)
What does that leave us with?
You guessed it.
Government legislation.
Certain people only have themselves to blame.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 12, 2019 15:38:20 GMT
This "parents should be responsible" argument is total nonsense. It's not practical or fair. Did OUR parents keep us handcuffed to them every minute of the day? Are they to blame for shitty things we did as kids? To imply that parents are simply negligent, especially in today's economic climate, where both parents likely need to work, is gross. The lootbox business model is PREDATORY. It exploits innate human psychology to prey on both children and adults. It's addictive by design, and it should be regulated. Liquor stores, tobacconists and casinos are legally required to make sure none of their clientele are minors, and the same laws should apply here. Meh, I think it's a bit of both. I wouldn't let parents totally off the hook ... I have my credit cards send me a notification if any single purchase or the balance exceeds a given amount ... but I agree that gambling addiction is specifically targeted by these exploitative practices and an addict, child or adult, can find some very devious ways to feed the addiction. To your point, the restriction to sub-18 is dumb. Either go after all exploitative practices or don't. How can they argue it's bad for kids but okay for adults? It's not an informed consent sort of situation.
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Post by colfoley on May 12, 2019 16:19:26 GMT
Lootboxes are about as preadatory as chocolate cake you aren't sure the filling of. Even if the filling was random, you still had a tasty chocolate cake. Lootboxes often repeatedly give low quality duplicates or consumables that you don't want or need, meaning you wasted your money or paid way too much for what you got. What about turning the tables and letting gamers buy games with a money lootbox instead of a fixed price? "Contains 5 money items, one guaranteed uncommon ($10) plus an increased chance at a rare ($20)"? Same thing with cake. They can have seriously diminishing returns depending on how much you eat and sometimes really bad filling can ruin really good chocolate. Besides the point that I'm making that in this scenario both cake/ lootboxes look yummy, they are both tempting. But you don't know what is inside them. So you have a choice, do you risk it...or not. Easier to justify when it's free cake but you have a responsibility.
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Post by Polka Dot on May 12, 2019 16:50:04 GMT
Again, consoles and computers have things that can prevent kids from using their credit cards as simple as making a password needed before being able to use it. Simple solution to a simple problem. If a parent can't spare the five minutes it would take to set that up, clearly they don't care that much if their kid does it. If they do care but don't do anything about it, then yes it is on them. Citation needed. Playing most any modern game on any platform requires the player to have an account - with the platform, publisher, or studio. I don't believe I've ever seen a configuration option for an account holder to lock out/password protect future purchases on that account. Lootboxes are about as preadatory as chocolate cake you aren't sure the filling of. … except that most rational people, upon finding the filling is not to their liking, would not purchase another piece. Also note that people's capacity for cake in any form is limited. Problem gamblers, otoh, go round after round after round until all of their familys' rent and grocery money is gone.
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Post by duckley on May 12, 2019 16:50:26 GMT
For crying out loud - lets protect young people from spending money on games - but not from dangers they face going to school everyday. Priorities? And how does one prevent the other? They don't of course. IMO governments should be passing legislation that saves lives - not wasting taxpayer's money on protecting children from the evils of loot boxes.... How about passing a law requiring parents to take parenting 101 before having children.
Apologies for my snark
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on May 12, 2019 17:05:32 GMT
Same thing with cake. They can have seriously diminishing returns depending on how much you eat and sometimes really bad filling can ruin really good chocolate. Uhm, okay... Besides the point that I'm making that in this scenario both cake/ lootboxes look yummy, they are both tempting. But you don't know what is inside them. So you have a choice, do you risk it...or not. Easier to justify when it's free cake but you have a responsibility. You also have the choice to buy your chocolate cake from a different baker, one who tells you up front what filling is inside and charges you a fixed price for it. Why defend that practice in the first place, trying to trick people into repeatedly spending money until they got the good item from the box of mostly poor stuff? It's a shady practice. Sure, people have their own responsibility to not fall for it, but that doesn't make it less shady. It's doubly shady with virtual in-game items than with cake, because every cake requires time and resources to make. In-game items require those resources only once.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 12, 2019 17:29:21 GMT
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Post by Polka Dot on May 12, 2019 17:43:55 GMT
Nice, thanks. It looks like Xbox and PlayStation have covered this (at least on current gen). How about smartphone and PC apps?
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Post by garrusfan1 on May 12, 2019 20:27:02 GMT
The fact that this is what the government chooses to regulate out of everything else is what makes people mad. However if you want to get technical then facebook and other forums like that cause the same feeling. When you get a like or a good comment you feel good. Even though it really means nothing and yet when you don't you feel like crap. It causes an incredible addiction which so many people have. Honestly can you think of another reason why so many people post pictures of food and stuff. And facebook researched this stuff so people would get addicted to it. The irony that facebook gets away with it with a stern talking too and then promise to fix their mistakes is ridiculous and has been repeated several times now.
So while I would be happy to see lootboxes gone I just have a very hard time dealing with this being the thing the government actually regulates
I am aware of the social media effects on people. It is why millenials who grew up on social media are basically at war with each other over the whole cultural thing, social media makes it far more addicting to be virtue signaling, to pretend that you care about a subject for the sake of likes, to pretend that there is something wrong in the world so that you can pretend and get likes. I know that, many don't. Anyway, I agree with you, although I don't think for the politicians this is so much for virtue signaling, a sense of feeling good. But we now have two generations who grew up with video games as a mainstream hobby, a huge chunk of people in this day and age play video games. I think the politicians have noted the fight there is against these lootboxes and microtransactions and in their mind it immediately pops up. "VOTERS! I CAN GET VOTES! VOTES! VOTES! VOTES!" People should have listened several years ago, when these practises by the big gaming corps became more and more prominent, if people had listened and if people start listening, government regulations will become less of a risk. Basically, for the consumers - stop encouraging microtransactions, stop buying games that have microtransactions in them for absolutely no reason (Any game that does not require the company to provide moderation, servers, etc), for the game publishers and developers - stop having microtransactions, lootboxes, all of the crap in your freaking game if they are not there to actually pay for the game's continued expenses. If above is way too hard because people, as I have noted, just can't keep their own tools in their pants, just quit the lootboxes. The easiest way this could be done is by just not buying lootboxes. It cost some money to put that feature in and if NOOONE used it then they wouldn't put it in there. Unfortunetly you will always have enough people do this that it will always be profitable.
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Post by colfoley on May 12, 2019 20:43:30 GMT
Again, consoles and computers have things that can prevent kids from using their credit cards as simple as making a password needed before being able to use it. Simple solution to a simple problem. If a parent can't spare the five minutes it would take to set that up, clearly they don't care that much if their kid does it. If they do care but don't do anything about it, then yes it is on them. Citation needed. Playing most any modern game on any platform requires the player to have an account - with the platform, publisher, or studio. I don't believe I've ever seen a configuration option for an account holder to lock out/password protect future purchases on that account. Lootboxes are about as preadatory as chocolate cake you aren't sure the filling of. … except that most rational people, upon finding the filling is not to their liking, would not purchase another piece. Also note that people's capacity for cake in any form is limited. Problem gamblers, otoh, go round after round after round until all of their familys' rent and grocery money is gone. With respect there is nothing rational about spending money on gambling that puts your family at risk. Yes I want to help those people out individually but it's not society or the governments responsibility to 'fix' these things. And sometimes the best way to help is tough love. Same thing with cake. They can have seriously diminishing returns depending on how much you eat and sometimes really bad filling can ruin really good chocolate. Uhm, okay... Besides the point that I'm making that in this scenario both cake/ lootboxes look yummy, they are both tempting. But you don't know what is inside them. So you have a choice, do you risk it...or not. Easier to justify when it's free cake but you have a responsibility. You also have the choice to buy your chocolate cake from a different baker, one who tells you up front what filling is inside and charges you a fixed price for it. Why defend that practice in the first place, trying to trick people into repeatedly spending money until they got the good item from the box of mostly poor stuff? It's a shady practice. Sure, people have their own responsibility to not fall for it, but that doesn't make it less shady. It's doubly shady with virtual in-game items than with cake, because every cake requires time and resources to make. In-game items require those resources only once. nothing shady about lootboxes.
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