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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2019 3:23:50 GMT
I'm pretty sure Alec didn't do it on purpose, since he was surprised when he discovered his SAM just wouldn't work with Cora. Totally his fault he didn't tell her that though. That's not to say another, generic SAM wouldn't work for her, if she really, really wanted to do it. However..... Cora readily admits - she's not a leader, not a pathfinder. Despite her training, she doesn't have the personality for it, which she recognizes. Why would you think she'd be better at the job than Ryder, just because of her prior training? She was only with the AI for 6 months prior to launch (per the book) so it's not like she had YEARS of experience on the team, despite what she says in the game. She wasn't a part of it for much longer than Scott/Sara. Doesn't really matter if he did it on purpose or not. His position was crucial enough that making sure it passed to someone qualified if something happened to him was one of his main responsibilities, and he utterly failed in a way that could have had catastrophic consequences entirely due to lack of judgement. As for Cora, I don't buy that for a second. "Doesn't have the personality of a leader"? She's perfectly confident and professional, unlike, say, Alistair. Not "feeling" like a leader isn't an excuse for shirking your responsibility when people depend on you. And if you think back to any place you've ever worked and compare your relative confidence and competence on your first day and after six months, I'm sure you'll agree that there's a more than significant difference between the two. And even besides that, she's several years older and much better trained, with better relations with other Initiative personnel. I seriously can't fathom what was going through Alec's mind or what logic Sam was working from when they decided that favoring Ryder over her as his successor for any reason was an acceptable or responsible contingency. LOL...Cassandra is driven by faith. Why wouldn't she want to follow someone she believed her god had handpicked to save the world? A rather silly and superficial summary of her character, her thought processes throughout the game, and for that matter the concept of human faith. That's... pretty much all there is to say. I really don't see what choice Alec had at the time though. Who was his options both in the short term and long term? But really who would've been better out of the pool of candidates. Liam? I don't think I need to expound too much on why this would've been a horrible idea. Any of the red shirt people who was on the team with Ryder? Don't have enough info on them but since most of them were dead and or injured by the end of the mission they were out. The Doctor that Lexi replaced? (God I need to replay Andromeda again this is embarassing). Cora? Cora was the only other real candidate and I don't see her being that much of an imporvement over Ryder (especially my Ryder). She had her own personal issues and demons which made her unsuitable for command. Yes she was 'experienced' and 'professional' but sadly she was also still trying to find and discover herself and also had a real big chip on her shoulder. Especially in light of her being adrift since getting booted out of the Huntress's she needed to find her path...and being Pathfinder was not it. Besides I know everyone loves to rag on Ryder but *my* Ryder was professional. *My* Ryder had combat and exploration experience. Yes he was young but the game allowed me to play a highly competent and professional soldier with aspirations of Special Ops hood. So in *my* game it would've practically been a toss up between the two of them.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jun 11, 2019 3:46:36 GMT
As for Alec's decision, it's been awhile since I played, but I suspect it had very little to do with who was "qualified", and everything to do with his wife. I mean, she is the only reason SAM even exists in the first place. Also maybe something to do with this Benefactor person. And the highly illegal upgrades no one was supposed to know about.
Regarding the next protagonist and their 'specialness', I guess I don't know enough about the next game to care. The only conflict we know is happening is with Solas, and I want my Inquisitor to be the one to deal with that. Anything else..eh. As long as it works for the story, I'm good.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2019 3:51:04 GMT
As for Alec's decision, it's been awhile since I played, but I suspect it had very little to do with who was "qualified", and everything to do with his wife. I mean, she is the only reason SAM even exists in the first place. Also maybe something to do with this Benefactor person. And the highly illegal upgrades no one was supposed to know about. Regarding the next protagonist and their 'specialness', I guess I don't know enough about the next game to care. The only conflict we know is happening is with Solas, and I want my Inquisitor to be the one to deal with that. Anything else..eh. As long as it works for the story, I'm good. that was pretty much it. His decision was personal and not professionally motivated but at the end of the day but even still its not like there were many available options that were *better* then Ryder. Especially at the time. I mean maaayyyyybbbbbeee Cora. But in the course of the game its at least my opinion that would have at least been a tossup.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 11, 2019 4:47:35 GMT
Of course, Alec Ryder's decision to transfer SAM to his kid isn't reviewable or revocable, according to Lexi. (Probably soluble in the long term if Ryder consents, though it's not clear why she would.) So this would mean breaking up the Pathfinder job into two roles, and there's no obvious candidate for the leadership role. Cora's plausible, I guess, but she wouldn't take it over Alec's wishes. Sloane Kelly's already deserted. Dunn, maybe; works for the salarians. Bit of an understatement in my opinion. I've yet to go through that scene where Ryder wakes up and is made aware of the new circumstance without offering it all to Cora, and feeling rather outraged when she turns me down. She's the obvious choice. She has far more experience both in the military and from assisting Alec in his responsibilities. There's no earthly reason for giving the title or the AI to an untested twenty-yearold rookie on their first day on the job over her, even to save that recruit's life or consciousness or whatever. Huh? Alec wanted Ryder to be his successor, period. I'm not sure why you'd think that this was to save Ryder's life, but nobody in the game thinks that it was anything but a deliberate decision on Alec's part to anoint his child as the next Pathfinder. I don't see how it can properly be described as incompetence on Alec's part. What happened was exactly what he intended to happen. As for whether he was running a foolhardy risk, well, he knew his kids and he knew Cora. If anything, by not asserting her right to command Cora proves that she really isn't command material. (Not surprising given what we later learn about her character.) But this just means that Alec was right. Yeah, this doesn't map well onto sexism, since Ryder can just as easily be female. It's PC-centrism. I suppose Bio could avoid this by going back to not putting women in those leadership roles in the first place. ( Are you actually asking for that? Suddenly I'm reminded of the whole Clexa debate.)
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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2019 5:07:38 GMT
At the risk of going off topic (but hell this is my thread so sue me) but in both the cases of Cassandra and Cora I don't think either of them were suited for a leadership role at the beginning of the game. And I say this as someone who considers Cass quite probably the best Female Character across fiction (I adore her). It is funny how similar the two characters are in so much as Cassandra is basically a much better-written version of Cora. Still part of the character arcs of BOTH women was learning to find their path, or a new path, accepting themselves and growing as people till by the end of the game Cassandra is probably divine and leading the Seekers. As for Cora while I am a bit more dubious on her ability to command going forward...Cora does go on a similar arc of competency throughout the game. She still might decide she is better off as Ryder's second, especially a Cora that is in a relationship with Ryder...but we may never get the answer to those questions either.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2019 13:23:24 GMT
Doesn't really matter if he did it on purpose or not. His position was crucial enough that making sure it passed to someone qualified if something happened to him was one of his main responsibilities, and he utterly failed in a way that could have had catastrophic consequences entirely due to lack of judgement. As for Cora, I don't buy that for a second. "Doesn't have the personality of a leader"? She's perfectly confident and professional, unlike, say, Alistair. Not "feeling" like a leader isn't an excuse for shirking your responsibility when people depend on you. And if you think back to any place you've ever worked and compare your relative confidence and competence on your first day and after six months, I'm sure you'll agree that there's a more than significant difference between the two. And even besides that, she's several years older and much better trained, with better relations with other Initiative personnel. I seriously can't fathom what was going through Alec's mind or what logic Sam was working from when they decided that favoring Ryder over her as his successor for any reason was an acceptable or responsible contingency. A rather silly and superficial summary of her character, her thought processes throughout the game, and for that matter the concept of human faith. That's... pretty much all there is to say. I really don't see what choice Alec had at the time though. Who was his options both in the short term and long term? But really who would've been better out of the pool of candidates. Liam? I don't think I need to expound too much on why this would've been a horrible idea. Any of the red shirt people who was on the team with Ryder? Don't have enough info on them but since most of them were dead and or injured by the end of the mission they were out. The Doctor that Lexi replaced? (God I need to replay Andromeda again this is embarassing). Cora? Cora was the only other real candidate and I don't see her being that much of an imporvement over Ryder (especially my Ryder). She had her own personal issues and demons which made her unsuitable for command. Yes she was 'experienced' and 'professional' but sadly she was also still trying to find and discover herself and also had a real big chip on her shoulder. Especially in light of her being adrift since getting booted out of the Huntress's she needed to find her path...and being Pathfinder was not it. Besides I know everyone loves to rag on Ryder but *my* Ryder was professional. *My* Ryder had combat and exploration experience. Yes he was young but the game allowed me to play a highly competent and professional soldier with aspirations of Special Ops hood. So in *my* game it would've practically been a toss up between the two of them. Then why did he make Cora his second in command?
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Post by biggydx on Jun 11, 2019 16:36:46 GMT
Then why did he make Cora his second in command? I imagine that Alec wasn't expecting to have his children take over after him on such short notice, hence why it made sense to have Cora as his second in command. I don't disagree with you on the premise though. Under a lot of metrics, Cora would have served as a better Pathfinder. She practically tells you that she was supposed to be when you speak to her about it.
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Post by biggydx on Jun 11, 2019 16:39:11 GMT
Since 'Training' is polling at the highest right now, I wonder how people would feel about having the main character having pre-established training (w/ a particular group). Or, would you'd rather they be self-taught from the beginning and then grow to become more experienced and specialized as the game progresses?
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2019 17:38:08 GMT
Then why did he make Cora his second in command? I imagine that Alec wasn't expecting to have his children take over after him on such short notice, hence why it made sense to have Cora as his second in command. I don't disagree with you on the premise though. Under a lot of metrics, Cora would have served as a better Pathfinder. She practically tells you that she was supposed to be when you speak to her about it. The guy's SA military, one of the first human explorers outside the Sol system, an N7, a veteran of the First Contact War, and was traveling to another galaxy full of unknown risks and woefully under-prepared for any kind of crisis. And his team was expected to be "the tip of the spear" for any such exploration, first contact situations, or other problems that may come up. Personal experience as well as common sense would have dictated a clear chain of command should be in place should anything happen to him. If he didn't think Cora could hack it as a Pathfinder should anything happen to him, he shouldn't have made her his XO.
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Post by theascendent on Jun 11, 2019 17:45:43 GMT
I wonder what kind of training would be interesting/unique enough to give us an advantage? I got it! We start as a slave gladiator in the Grand Proving Arena. (1) That could be the prologue, with dialogue explaining who we were, how we got there and the grand prize for winning/surviving being freedom/a boon from the Archon. We meet with our prologue party, introducing us to the main political players in the Imperium through whom they place bets on, who their gladiators are. Then just as we are about to win, plot happens. Hmm... Now that I wrote it out, it sounded better in my head. Not sure if Bioware wants to do the Bethesda route/prisoner beginning but, you never know. Just a thought. (1) "Grand Proving Arena, another architectural marvel, built in -1200 Ancient based on dwarven design. It is a triangular prism with hanging terraced gardens on the exterior, said to be a "green jewel at the centre of a stone city" (Source Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, p. 78)
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2019 18:07:04 GMT
I wonder what kind of training would be interesting/unique enough to give us an advantage? I got it! We start as a slave gladiator in the Grand Proving Arena. (1) That could be the prologue, with dialogue explaining who we were, how we got there and the grand prize for winning/surviving being freedom/a boon from the Archon. We meet with our prologue party, introducing us to the main political players in the Imperium through whom they place bets on, who their gladiators are. Then just as we are about to win, plot happens. Hmm... Now that I wrote it out, it sounded better in my head. Not sure if Bioware wants to do the Bethesda route/prisoner beginning but, you never know. Just a thought. (1) "Grand Proving Arena, another architectural marvel, built in -1200 Ancient based on dwarven design. It is a triangular prism with hanging terraced gardens on the exterior, said to be a "green jewel at the centre of a stone city" (Source Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, p. 78) Ultimately it would depend on what the "primary" threat is in the game. Likely that would be either Solas or the Qunari. For a mage, apprenticing under some specialist in a discipline that proves to be important would make sense. Tevinter is after all the greatest source of magical knowledge in Thedas. For warriors or rogues...well, a veteran of the Seheron fighting, maybe? I don't think we know a lot about Tevinter's military forces, save their Templars are basically security guards.
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Post by theascendent on Jun 11, 2019 18:42:32 GMT
Ultimately it would depend on what the "primary" threat is in the game. Likely that would be either Solas or the Qunari. For a mage, apprenticing under some specialist in a discipline that proves to be important would make sense. Tevinter is after all the greatest source of magical knowledge in Thedas. For warriors or rogues...well, a veteran of the Seheron fighting, maybe? I don't think we know a lot about Tevinter's military forces, save their Templars are basically security guards. I think Tevinter has a secret service/police branch that conduct black ops as detailed in the Seheron Codex entry in Inquisition. The quote below is the reference regarding how to conduct the war in Seheron, which is the medieval fantasy equivalent of Vietnam. "An excerpt from a training manual given to Tevinter operatives joining the Siccari, whose existence has been officially denied"
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2019 18:55:27 GMT
Ultimately it would depend on what the "primary" threat is in the game. Likely that would be either Solas or the Qunari. For a mage, apprenticing under some specialist in a discipline that proves to be important would make sense. Tevinter is after all the greatest source of magical knowledge in Thedas. For warriors or rogues...well, a veteran of the Seheron fighting, maybe? I don't think we know a lot about Tevinter's military forces, save their Templars are basically security guards. I think Tevinter has a secret service/police branch that conduct black ops as detailed in the Seheron Codex entry in Inquisition. The quote below is the reference regarding how to conduct the war in Seheron, which is the medieval fantasy equivalent of Vietnam. "An excerpt from a training manual given to Tevinter operatives joining the Siccari, whose existence has been officially denied" "To drain"? "Exhaust"? A military branch trained to bleed and wear down the Antaam?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2019 19:00:14 GMT
Since 'Training' is polling at the highest right now, I wonder how people would feel about having the main character having pre-established training (w/ a particular group). Or, would you'd rather they be self-taught from the beginning and then grow to become more experienced and specialized as the game progresses? I think for the purposes of the game it doesn't matter which it is.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jun 11, 2019 19:11:53 GMT
Since 'Training' is polling at the highest right now, I wonder how people would feel about having the main character having pre-established training (w/ a particular group). Or, would you'd rather they be self-taught from the beginning and then grow to become more experienced and specialized as the game progresses? I think self taught wouldn't be the best idea. You cannot really teach yourself how to fight with a sword effectively compared to someone who trained and sparred with a professional, neither can you teach yourself to become a real-life green barret. I can only imagine that self-teaching would work somewhat with a magic user or maaaybe a bowman - anything else would be kinda ridiculous and it would be very close to ''gifted by birth'' which we want to avoid, right? Most of the training in the field of warfare consists of the combined knowledge, mistakes and successes of uncountable generations of fighters with hands-on experience. You cannot really teach that to yourself.
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Post by biggydx on Jun 11, 2019 19:41:00 GMT
"To drain"? "Exhaust"? A military branch trained to bleed and wear down the Antaam? Maybe a specialized group of blood mages? I wonder how blood mage subterfuge would work.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 11, 2019 19:58:10 GMT
I don't see how it can properly be described as incompetence on Alec's part. What happened was exactly what he intended to happen. As for whether he was running a foolhardy risk, well, he knew his kids and he knew Cora. If anything, by not asserting her right to command Cora proves that she really isn't command material. (Not surprising given what we later learn about her character.) But this just means that Alec was right. Yeah, this doesn't map well onto sexism, since Ryder can just as easily be female. It's PC-centrism. I suppose Bio could avoid this by going back to not putting women in those leadership roles in the first place. ( Are you actually asking for that? Suddenly I'm reminded of the whole Clexa debate.) Uhm. It was Alec's responsibility to ensure a sensible path of succession. He didn't. The exact circumstances and candidates he ended up having to choose between were entirely his own doing. Extreme incompetence. And we're totally agreed that his decisionmaking on that front and Cora abiding by it are the two biggest strikes against both characters in the game, so huge that nothing else even comes close, and both are entirely a function of Bioware's patronising need to make the player feel special rather than anything that could actually happen if both characters stayed in character. Bioware could avoid it by not putting women in perfect exact leadership positions to be in charge of the player, and then making them bow down for no reason to make the player feel extra special. When the same thing happened in Dragon Age Origins with a man, that man was an insecure and traumatized neurotic wreck. When it happened in Mass Effect 1 with a man, that man really was too old to operate in the field and his influence was more effectively used at the home base, so to speak. In both of those cases, there's sensible reason for the player to step up. In one the supposed leader is clearly unfit, and there's nothing to do except take his place. In the other the supposed leader sees that he really isn't the best person for the particular job and nominates his second-in-command(not exactly how it happens, but in principle), who demonstrably is. Both make perfect sense, and happen all the time because that's how leadership actually passes on. Cassandra and Cora, on the other hand, are both more skilled and experienced and in their prime, and have both demonstrated their mettle and their sense far more extensively than the player character has. Neither of them have disqualifying issues, because surprise, minor insecurity t hat you clearly have a handle on and faith in a higher power that doesn't prevent you from recognizing the practical situation you and everyone else is in aren't disqualifying and never have been. In fact, a lot of people would point to those two things as qualifiers in and of themselves, and I don't entirely disagree. There's no reason whatsoever why the player character shouldn't have spent Andromeda and Inquisition answering to each of them, respectively. I've no idea who or what "Clexa" is. And yup, you should play the game again. It's way underrated. The only reason I don't play it through more often, aside from this issue, is that I need to get through 3 other games to get to it before my narrative-OCD is going to let me enjoy it properly. (Pretty please with sugar on top don't split my comments up into pieces when I'm already debating two other people. This is already a pain in the ass to organize replies to, and I'm sure everyone here can keep their concentration through more than one paragraph for the purposes of understanding what specific points you're addressing.) I really don't see what choice Alec had at the time though. Who was his options both in the short term and long term? But really who would've been better out of the pool of candidates. Cora? Cora was the only other real candidate and I don't see her being that much of an imporvement over Ryder (especially my Ryder). She had her own personal issues and demons which made her unsuitable for command. Yes she was 'experienced' and 'professional' but sadly she was also still trying to find and discover herself and also had a real big chip on her shoulder. Especially in light of her being adrift since getting booted out of the Huntress's she needed to find her path...and being Pathfinder was not it. Besides I know everyone loves to rag on Ryder but *my* Ryder was professional. *My* Ryder had combat and exploration experience. Yes he was young but the game allowed me to play a highly competent and professional soldier with aspirations of Special Ops hood. So in *my* game it would've practically been a toss up between the two of them. As I said, doesn't really matter if he did it on purpose. It was his responsibility to make sure a decent successor would be available if something happened to him, which was entirely possible. He could have recruited more and more reliable personnel. He could have, as Alan suggested, split the Pathfinder role into two and let the AI possessed kid be the AI possessed kid while the actually qualified and experienced leader took charge. There are countless more responsible things he could have done rather than bypass his second in line to foist leadership on a rookie banking that s/he would miraculously have what it took. All this talk about Cora not feeling like an ideal leader is ridiculous. No sensible leader ever has. She's not a wreck, she's not an idiot, she's not a coward, she's not immoral, she's not foreign to giving orders at all, and she's the most qualified candidate. If she had woken up as the new Pathfinder she would undoubtedly have taken it on the chin and done her duty. I don't see her having minor personal issues as being the least bit disqualifying, especially given that Ryder potentially has far more, and as his/her dad Alec would be uniquely unlikely to have spotted them or thought them through. I'm only going by what Cora says. Apparently you don't believe her? At this point in time, she's been on the PF team for....a year? Maybe longer? She still doesn't see herself as a Pathfinder, even though she might want to be one. But what a person wants and what they might be good at, aren't the same thing. I would also say, believing you can lead is absolutely essential to doing so successfully. Being thrust into a position you don't want and don't believe you can do isn't conducive to helping those people who are supposedly depending on you. This is exactly what Ryder does though, the very thing you want Cora to do ("buck up and do your job") yet somehow it isn't good enough unless Cora does it instead. How she feels about leadership as a concept is immaterial. She's chosen a profession and a career path that puts immense responsibility on her shoulders and includes the near-certainty that she may be forced to lead at some point, and she knew that when she took the job. And nothing about her behavior or demeanor throughout the game leads me to believe that she wouldn't do an okay job, least of all what she has to say when the person who ended up taking her position asks her. "Believing you can lead" isn't actually a thing. It either happens gradually with you barely noticing because the people around you start deferring more to your judgement when they're uncertain until there's no longer any doubt about who makes the decisions, or suddenly because whoever used to be in charge isn't anymore and the next guy needs to step up, and who that person was supposed to be is usually obvious, and if they don't then it's a pretty huge refusal of their responsibility that can screw everything up because there's no guarantee that anyone else is prepared or qualified to do the job. As there wasn't here. I don't know what teenage messiah figures you guys like to make in your character creators. My Ryders have been relatively affluent twentytwo-yearold military brats with minimal field experience way out of their depths, exactly like the game tells us Ryder is, and the reason they didn't fuck it up in any serious ways was that an AI was essentially making most of the risk calculations and judgement calls, and no really complicated situation with real stakes occurred.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 11, 2019 20:12:14 GMT
I imagine that Alec wasn't expecting to have his children take over after him on such short notice, hence why it made sense to have Cora as his second in command. I don't disagree with you on the premise though. Under a lot of metrics, Cora would have served as a better Pathfinder. She practically tells you that she was supposed to be when you speak to her about it. The guy's SA military, one of the first human explorers outside the Sol system, an N7, a veteran of the First Contact War, and was traveling to another galaxy full of unknown risks and woefully under-prepared for any kind of crisis. And his team was expected to be "the tip of the spear" for any such exploration, first contact situations, or other problems that may come up. Personal experience as well as common sense would have dictated a clear chain of command should be in place should anything happen to him. If he didn't think Cora could hack it as a Pathfinder should anything happen to him, he shouldn't have made her his XO. OTOH, sudden Pathfinder transfer is quite disruptive to the recipient if Ryder's experience is typical. If Alec had died in the middle of a crisis instead of at the end of it and Pathfinder status transferred to Cora, she'd have been in no shape to exercise any kind of command anyway. Having a competent XO who isn't the successor is actually kind of efficient. Still should've told her, though.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2019 20:24:12 GMT
I don't see how it can properly be described as incompetence on Alec's part. What happened was exactly what he intended to happen. As for whether he was running a foolhardy risk, well, he knew his kids and he knew Cora. If anything, by not asserting her right to command Cora proves that she really isn't command material. (Not surprising given what we later learn about her character.) But this just means that Alec was right. Yeah, this doesn't map well onto sexism, since Ryder can just as easily be female. It's PC-centrism. I suppose Bio could avoid this by going back to not putting women in those leadership roles in the first place. ( Are you actually asking for that? Suddenly I'm reminded of the whole Clexa debate.) Uhm. It was Alec's responsibility to ensure a sensible path of succession. He didn't. The exact circumstances and candidates he ended up having to choose between were entirely his own doing. Extreme incompetence. And we're totally agreed that his decisionmaking on that front and Cora abiding by it are the two biggest strikes against both characters in the game, so huge that nothing else even comes close, and both are entirely a function of Bioware's patronising need to make the player feel special rather than anything that could actually happen if both characters stayed in character. Bioware could avoid it by not putting women in perfect exact leadership positions to be in charge of the player, and then making them bow down for no reason to make the player feel extra special. When the same thing happened in Dragon Age Origins with a man, that man was an insecure and traumatized neurotic wreck. When it happened in Mass Effect 1 with a man, that man really was too old to operate in the field and his influence was more effectively used at the home base, so to speak. In both of those cases, there's sensible reason for the player to step up. In one the supposed leader is clearly unfit, and there's nothing to do except take his place. In the other the supposed leader sees that he really isn't the best person for the particular job and nominates his second-in-command(not exactly how it happens, but in principle), who demonstrably is. Both make perfect sense, and happen all the time because that's how leadership actually passes on. Cassandra and Cora, on the other hand, are both more skilled and experienced and in their prime, and have both demonstrated their mettle and their sense far more extensively than the player character has. Neither of them have disqualifying issues, because surprise, minor insecurity t hat you clearly have a handle on and faith in a higher power that doesn't prevent you from recognizing the practical situation you and everyone else is in aren't disqualifying and never have been. In fact, a lot of people would point to those two things as qualifiers in and of themselves, and I don't entirely disagree. There's no reason whatsoever why the player character shouldn't have spent Andromeda and Inquisition answering to each of them, respectively. I've no idea who or what "Clexa" is. And yup, you should play the game again. It's way underrated. The only reason I don't play it through more often, aside from this issue, is that I need to get through 3 other games to get to it before my narrative-OCD is going to let me enjoy it properly. (Pretty please with sugar on top don't split my comments up into pieces when I'm already debating two other people. This is already a pain in the ass to organize replies to, and I'm sure everyone here can keep their concentration through more than one paragraph for the purposes of understanding what specific points you're addressing.) I really don't see what choice Alec had at the time though. Who was his options both in the short term and long term? But really who would've been better out of the pool of candidates. Cora? Cora was the only other real candidate and I don't see her being that much of an imporvement over Ryder (especially my Ryder). She had her own personal issues and demons which made her unsuitable for command. Yes she was 'experienced' and 'professional' but sadly she was also still trying to find and discover herself and also had a real big chip on her shoulder. Especially in light of her being adrift since getting booted out of the Huntress's she needed to find her path...and being Pathfinder was not it. Besides I know everyone loves to rag on Ryder but *my* Ryder was professional. *My* Ryder had combat and exploration experience. Yes he was young but the game allowed me to play a highly competent and professional soldier with aspirations of Special Ops hood. So in *my* game it would've practically been a toss up between the two of them. As I said, doesn't really matter if he did it on purpose. It was his responsibility to make sure a decent successor would be available if something happened to him, which was entirely possible. He could have recruited more and more reliable personnel. He could have, as Alan suggested, split the Pathfinder role into two and let the AI possessed kid be the AI possessed kid while the actually qualified and experienced leader took charge. There are countless more responsible things he could have done rather than bypass his second in line to foist leadership on a rookie banking that s/he would miraculously have what it took. All this talk about Cora not feeling like an ideal leader is ridiculous. No sensible leader ever has. She's not a wreck, she's not an idiot, she's not a coward, she's not immoral, she's not foreign to giving orders at all, and she's the most qualified candidate. If she had woken up as the new Pathfinder she would undoubtedly have taken it on the chin and done her duty. I don't see her having minor personal issues as being the least bit disqualifying, especially given that Ryder potentially has far more, and as his/her dad Alec would be uniquely unlikely to have spotted them or thought them through. I'm only going by what Cora says. Apparently you don't believe her? At this point in time, she's been on the PF team for....a year? Maybe longer? She still doesn't see herself as a Pathfinder, even though she might want to be one. But what a person wants and what they might be good at, aren't the same thing. I would also say, believing you can lead is absolutely essential to doing so successfully. Being thrust into a position you don't want and don't believe you can do isn't conducive to helping those people who are supposedly depending on you. This is exactly what Ryder does though, the very thing you want Cora to do ("buck up and do your job") yet somehow it isn't good enough unless Cora does it instead. How she feels about leadership as a concept is immaterial. She's chosen a profession and a career path that puts immense responsibility on her shoulders and includes the near-certainty that she may be forced to lead at some point, and she knew that when she took the job. And nothing about her behavior or demeanor throughout the game leads me to believe that she wouldn't do an okay job, least of all what she has to say when the person who ended up taking her position asks her. "Believing you can lead" isn't actually a thing. It either happens gradually with you barely noticing because the people around you start deferring more to your judgement when they're uncertain until there's no longer any doubt about who makes the decisions, or suddenly because whoever used to be in charge isn't anymore and the next guy needs to step up, and who that person was supposed to be is usually obvious, and if they don't then it's a pretty huge refusal of their responsibility that can screw everything up because there's no guarantee that anyone else is prepared or qualified to do the job. As there wasn't here. I don't know what teenage messiah figures you guys like to make in your character creators. My Ryders have been relatively affluent twentytwo-yearold military brats with minimal field experience way out of their depths, exactly like the game tells us Ryder is, and the reason they didn't fuck it up in any serious ways was that an AI was essentially making most of the risk calculations and judgement calls, and no really complicated situation with real stakes occurred. now that is certainly an interesting idea. Sadly video games still haven't gotten to the point of divorcing protagonist from team lead. And not sure if they really can or if they even should've. How do you know she is experienced at giving orders?
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2019 20:32:10 GMT
The guy's SA military, one of the first human explorers outside the Sol system, an N7, a veteran of the First Contact War, and was traveling to another galaxy full of unknown risks and woefully under-prepared for any kind of crisis. And his team was expected to be "the tip of the spear" for any such exploration, first contact situations, or other problems that may come up. Personal experience as well as common sense would have dictated a clear chain of command should be in place should anything happen to him. If he didn't think Cora could hack it as a Pathfinder should anything happen to him, he shouldn't have made her his XO. OTOH, sudden Pathfinder transfer is quite disruptive to the recipient if Ryder's experience is typical. If Alec had died in the middle of a crisis instead of at the end of it and Pathfinder status transferred to Cora, she'd have been in no shape to exercise any kind of command anyway. Having a competent XO who isn't the successor is actually kind of efficient. Still should've told her, though. It is presumably not known if such a transfer is "typical" given SAM was "upgraded" in secret and is unique. For that matter, Alec had to authorize the transfer, so presumably it would not have happened automatically during a crisis, and would have occurred later on when Cora, or whoever, would authorize such a transfer. Or it's just another example of Alec being an idiot by not putting a warning label on SAM.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2019 20:33:03 GMT
"To drain"? "Exhaust"? A military branch trained to bleed and wear down the Antaam? Maybe a specialized group of blood mages? I wonder how blood mage subterfuge would work. Everyone knows there are no blood mages in Tevinter
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 11, 2019 20:58:09 GMT
I don't see how it can properly be described as incompetence on Alec's part. What happened was exactly what he intended to happen. As for whether he was running a foolhardy risk, well, he knew his kids and he knew Cora. If anything, by not asserting her right to command Cora proves that she really isn't command material. (Not surprising given what we later learn about her character.) But this just means that Alec was right. Yeah, this doesn't map well onto sexism, since Ryder can just as easily be female. It's PC-centrism. I suppose Bio could avoid this by going back to not putting women in those leadership roles in the first place. ( Are you actually asking for that? Suddenly I'm reminded of the whole Clexa debate.) Uhm. It was Alec's responsibility to ensure a sensible path of succession. He didn't. The exact circumstances and candidates he ended up having to choose between were entirely his own doing. Extreme incompetence. And we're totally agreed that his decisionmaking on that front and Cora abiding by it are the two biggest strikes against both characters in the game, so huge that nothing else even comes close, and both are entirely a function of Bioware's patronising need to make the player feel special rather than anything that could actually happen if both characters stayed in character. Although Alec thought his succession plan was sensible. Whether we do isn't something he cared about. And since Ryder always succeeds, there can't ever be any evidence that it wasn't. I'm just saying that it can't be "incompetence" when a strategy pays off for the guy who came up with it in exactly the way he intended it to. Alec seems to have gratuitously screwed Cora over, yep, but this is the sort of thing he did to people. It's interesting to think about a version where Cora's in command but Ryder still does everything because Ryder has the AI. I suppose that game would be straight-up linear because Cora would be picking the mission order. And maybe driving the Nomad? Nah; in that version we'd be going everyplace on shuttles like in ME2. Well, Cassandra doesn't have the whole Chosen By Andraste Herself thing going for her. Neither does the Inquisitor, but that isn't common knowledge. I'd tell you to google it, but that's a rabbit hole you don't want to go down. The tl;dr of it is that on The 100, major character Lexa was killed off immediately after beginning a romantic relationship with main character Clarke. (It's the lead TV example for Bury Your Gays.) Fans nearly rioted over it. Thing is, it was never really clear what the fans wanted done differently. Not killing Lexa wasn't an option; the entire season was about Lexa's death and what followed from it, and the actress was leaving the show to do Fear the Walking Dead. The most workable way to avoid the trope would have been to simply never have Clarke and Lexa actually get involved, but nobody would have liked that either since they'd been teasing the relationship for over a year. The point is that it isn't enough to just be against something without having a clear idea of what you'd be for in its place. Put another way, would a CRPG where the PC is constantly being ordered around actually work?
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Post by Syv on Jun 11, 2019 21:20:20 GMT
Did people read Mass effect Initiation ? Alec Ryder didn't doubt one bit about Cora. Alec Ryder planned first Cora to be the next Pathfinder at his death, after experimenting the first SAM called SAM-1 with her, if everything would have happened very well. He wanted to check first if the transfer from him to her could happen and if the adaptation between Cora and SAM-1 ( the first SAM he created without all the improvements he made with his own SAM ) could work. One of the reasons why he integrated SAM-1 to her body while she was going to investigate for him.
But it happened that the experience with the SAM -1 tied to her, ( not his own personal ) didn't work as it should, with a brutal degradation of the AI toward the end of the book, which would have ended hurting Cora in a biological way if he didn't act before it was too late, removing the AI from her. Hence Alec Ryder learned and was then certain that actually, only someone from his genetic heritage could inherit ( so, one of the Ryders ) SAM. And he would have to choose between the twins who should have to carry that big burden, who would have to become the next human Pathfinder.
He didn't tell the truth to Cora, because she was already sad. It's not a choice. And never Cora would understand why Alec Ryder she respected so much didn't choose her for the succession, why he chose his son or daughter instead of her, despite being commander in second, more ready than he/ she was, hurting her so much. Because Alec died before telling her the truth... or rather because he kept the truth for him...
Nothing to do with judgment over competence, nothing to do with having to prepare carefully his succession as pathfinder between several potential candidates. His only choice was one of his children, nothing else, whether they were ready or not, whether they were competent or not, were skilled or not. The formidable technology he developped was ironically limited in a way, and therefore limited his choices.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 11, 2019 21:42:27 GMT
Although Alec thought his succession plan was sensible. Whether we do isn't something he cared about. And since Ryder always succeeds, there can't ever be any evidence that it wasn't. I'm just saying that it can't be "incompetence" when a strategy pays off for the guy who came up with it in exactly the way he intended it to. Alec seems to have gratuitously screwed Cora over, yep, but this is the sort of thing he did to people. The point is that it isn't enough to just be against something without having a clear idea of what you'd be for in its place. Put another way, would a CRPG where the PC is constantly being ordered around actually work? If your plan only works out through miraculous luck and factors you had no knowledge of? Yup, that's still incompetence and you would still deserve to be shot for banking everybody's lives on it. The world was just fortunate enough that it didn't have to pay for your shoddy decisions. I don't see the relevance of that second point. I'm obviously for leadership being awarded to the most qualified and proven candidate rather than the most "special" one just in case that person miraculously turns out to have what it takes in a patronizing effort to manipulate the player into feeling more invested in the game. Can't believe people find that such a radical idea. Or why everyone suddenly thinks leadership is both something you have to be perfectly suited for to qualify, and at the same time so effortless and natural that someone completely unprepared might be the right choice for it. Or, for that matter, what's so unthinkable about the player character answering to someone else more suited to being in charge. Like, what? We do that in most games, some excessively so as you describe, without it ruining them at all. And we most certainly do it in real life, all of us, every day, mostly without having an existential breakdown at not always being the most "important" person in the room. Did people read Mass effect Initiation ? Alec Ryder didn't doubt one bit about Cora. Alec Ryder planned first Cora to be the next Pathfinder at his death, after experimenting the first SAM called SAM-1 with her, if everything would have happened very well. He wanted to check first if the transfer from him to her could happen and if the adaptation between Cora and SAM-1 ( the first SAM he created without all the improvements he made with his own SAM ) could work. One of the reasons why he integrated SAM-1 to her body while she was going to investigate for him. But it happened that the experience with the SAM -1 tied to her, ( not his own personal ) didn't work as it should, with a brutal degradation of the AI toward the end of the book, which would have ended hurting Cora in a biological way if he didn't act before it was too late, removing the AI from her. Hence Alec Ryder learned and was then certain that actually, only someone from his genetic heritage could inherit ( so, one of the Ryders ) SAM. And he would have to choose between the twins who should have to carry that big burden, who would have to become the next human Pathfinder. He didn't tell the truth to Cora, because she was already sad. It's not a choice. And never Cora would understand why Alec Ryder she respected so much didn't choose her for the succession, why he chose his son or daughter instead of her, despite being commander in second, more ready than he/ she was, hurting her so much. Because Alec died before telling her the truth... or rather because he kept the truth for him... Nothing to do with judgment over competence, nothing to do with having to prepare carefully his succession as pathfinder between several potential candidates. His only choice was one of his children, nothing else, whether they were ready or not, whether they were competent or not, were skilled or not. The formidable technology he developped was ironically limited in a way, and therefore limited his choices. I haven't read that book, no. Does it say anything about why the human Pathfinder absolutely must have an integrated AI? Because none of the others do, and it's kind of the premise all that logic is working from. I'm not reading anything here that suggests he couldn't have made Cora Pathfinder and given SAM to one of his kids on the team. now that is certainly an interesting idea. Sadly video games still haven't gotten to the point of divorcing protagonist from team lead. And not sure if they really can or if they even should've. How do you know she is experienced at giving orders? They absolutely have and absolutely could and absolutely should, whether we're talking about "team lead" or just relative authority. To wit, I just started Kingdom Come: Deliverance up again. Humple pie has never tasted so good. As for why Cora is experienced at giving orders, that's a weird question. She was an Alliance officer even before she was transferred to one of the Citadel's special forces programmes. Emphasis on officer. And then she became Alec Ryder's second in command. Of course she's used to giving orders. Why in the world wouldn't she be?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2019 22:42:49 GMT
Although Alec thought his succession plan was sensible. Whether we do isn't something he cared about. And since Ryder always succeeds, there can't ever be any evidence that it wasn't. I'm just saying that it can't be "incompetence" when a strategy pays off for the guy who came up with it in exactly the way he intended it to. Alec seems to have gratuitously screwed Cora over, yep, but this is the sort of thing he did to people. The point is that it isn't enough to just be against something without having a clear idea of what you'd be for in its place. Put another way, would a CRPG where the PC is constantly being ordered around actually work? If your plan only works out through miraculous luck and factors you had no knowledge of? Yup, that's still incompetence and you would still deserve to be shot for banking everybody's lives on it. The world was just fortunate enough that it didn't have to pay for your shoddy decisions. I don't see the relevance of that second point. I'm obviously for leadership being awarded to the most qualified and proven candidate rather than the most "special" one just in case that person miraculously turns out to have what it takes in a patronizing effort to manipulate the player into feeling more invested in the game. Can't believe people find that such a radical idea. Or why everyone suddenly thinks leadership is both something you have to be perfectly suited for to qualify, and at the same time so effortless and natural that someone completely unprepared might be the right choice for it. Or, for that matter, what's so unthinkable about the player character answering to someone else more suited to being in charge. Like, what? We do that in most games, some excessively so as you describe, without it ruining them at all. And we most certainly do it in real life, all of us, every day, mostly without having an existential breakdown at not always being the most "important" person in the room. Did people read Mass effect Initiation ? Alec Ryder didn't doubt one bit about Cora. Alec Ryder planned first Cora to be the next Pathfinder at his death, after experimenting the first SAM called SAM-1 with her, if everything would have happened very well. He wanted to check first if the transfer from him to her could happen and if the adaptation between Cora and SAM-1 ( the first SAM he created without all the improvements he made with his own SAM ) could work. One of the reasons why he integrated SAM-1 to her body while she was going to investigate for him. But it happened that the experience with the SAM -1 tied to her, ( not his own personal ) didn't work as it should, with a brutal degradation of the AI toward the end of the book, which would have ended hurting Cora in a biological way if he didn't act before it was too late, removing the AI from her. Hence Alec Ryder learned and was then certain that actually, only someone from his genetic heritage could inherit ( so, one of the Ryders ) SAM. And he would have to choose between the twins who should have to carry that big burden, who would have to become the next human Pathfinder. He didn't tell the truth to Cora, because she was already sad. It's not a choice. And never Cora would understand why Alec Ryder she respected so much didn't choose her for the succession, why he chose his son or daughter instead of her, despite being commander in second, more ready than he/ she was, hurting her so much. Because Alec died before telling her the truth... or rather because he kept the truth for him... Nothing to do with judgment over competence, nothing to do with having to prepare carefully his succession as pathfinder between several potential candidates. His only choice was one of his children, nothing else, whether they were ready or not, whether they were competent or not, were skilled or not. The formidable technology he developped was ironically limited in a way, and therefore limited his choices. I haven't read that book, no. Does it say anything about why the human Pathfinder absolutely must have an integrated AI? Because none of the others do, and it's kind of the premise all that logic is working from. I'm not reading anything here that suggests he couldn't have made Cora Pathfinder and given SAM to one of his kids on the team. now that is certainly an interesting idea. Sadly video games still haven't gotten to the point of divorcing protagonist from team lead. And not sure if they really can or if they even should've. How do you know she is experienced at giving orders? They absolutely have and absolutely could and absolutely should, whether we're talking about "team lead" or just relative authority. To wit, I just started Kingdom Come: Deliverance up again. Humple pie has never tasted so good. As for why Cora is experienced at giving orders, that's a weird question. She was an Alliance officer even before she was transferred to one of the Citadel's special forces programmes. Emphasis on officer. And then she became Alec Ryder's second in command. Of course she's used to giving orders. Why in the world wouldn't she be? Kingdome Come is a bit of an outlier when it comes to RPGs most of whom put you in some sort of leadership role early on from squad leader, ship commander, to powerful organization head. And sure it might be an interesting twist to not play such a character in the future...in the case of Andromeda it would've changed little. Actually one of the things I would've liked to see in 4 is playing a very Hawke like character. Someone who is just leader of a gang or something. Then as time goes on they get more embroiled into the war. If the spy plot works out your character could be locally recruited into the Inquisition and that way you spend the game reporting to a handler.
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