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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jun 11, 2019 1:03:15 GMT
I am so obsessed with them. It’s like Elvhen Clue- Who killed Mythal? Who dunnit?
I created this thread to discuss theories about what everyone thinks we will uncover in DA4 and even beyond. Just in case anyone needs a reminder of who they are:
Elgar’nan
Mythal
Ghilan’nain
Andruil
June
Sylaise
Falon’Din
Dirthamen
... and of course, Solas.
I’ll start. First, there are soooo many things to speculate... their involvement with the Titans, their true nature, their involvement with red lyrium, I could go on... but I want to begin with Mythal’s murder.
I found something peculiar when replaying DAI the other day, and this may have already been mentioned previously but here it is anyway: at the Temple of Mythal, in the section where you perform the rituals, there are two elvhen gods that Morrigan speaks of when finding their mosaics - Andruil and Falon’Din.
First, I think it’s odd that we only get dialogue about these two (besides The Dread Wolf, lol) Why just them? All of the Evanuris are depicted at the Temple of Mythal- why not give info on all, or more than JUST two? feel like it was deliberate, and the talk of death and sacrifice (if Solas is with you) is very suggestive. What’s even more disturbing is the fact that Mythal’s statue in both rooms are missing their wings. I have never seen her statue represented like that EVER - she always has her wings (please correct me here if I am wrong.)
The way her statue stands in their room like that leads me to believe they damaged her in some way.
Now, in the area, looking onto the door that leads to the Sentinels, we see two more mosaics- Mythal’s and... another, obstructed by a tree grown out from the rest of the greenery, as if nature deliberately stretched itself to confiscate the view.. of Elgar’nan.
With that being said, I think these four mosaic pieces with their placements and surroundings laid out tell a story: that Andruil and Falon’Din murdered Mythal, and Elgar’nan was responsible, but hid himself in a way that made it seem otherwise. I believe Elgar’nan, the all-powerful, could not bear to murder Mythal himself, so he had his alleged son, Falon’Din, (I believe there was this “come on man, your moms getting in the way of all the power we could have!” talk with Falon’Din. Baseless, but believable based on Falon’Din’s need for adulation.) to do it instead. That was her lover that did that. That sinks deep. I think that was Mythal’s “Betrayal.”
I could go on about the nature of this betrayal, but I’ve already written a wall of text so imma keep it short: Mythal was in her dragon form, traveling (flying lol) somewhere at the request/guidance of Elgar’nan when suddenly Andruil’s spear is thrown down on Mythal from above, impaling and incapacitating her (look at Solas’ last unfinished painting after he leaves Skyhold forever.) While she was down, I believe Falon’Din somehow took her spirit and guided it to where it could never return from - The Void. This also closely mirrors how Solas tricked the Evanuris into his trap- luring them with false pretenses toward their demise. Him trapping the Evanuris through the same technique they used to kill Mythal would be such a Solas thing to do.
I think the others were involved as well, but not in the same capacity as Andruil and Falon’Din. What are your thoughts on the Evanuris? Who is your favorite? What do you think we will uncover about them in DA4 and beyond? Do you think they are connected to the Old Gods? Evanuris Evanuris Evanuris, Evanuris?
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Post by yogsothoth on Jun 11, 2019 1:59:41 GMT
I think Ghilan'nain is one of the most interesting of the pantheon. She is the only one that was described as a normal Elf before ascending to godhood and was apparently the one that urged others taking the form meant only for gods, i.e. dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't involved in Mythal's murder since she seems to be an odd one out among the rest of the Evanuris (besides Solas).
I also imagine Sylaise (Goddess of crafts/hearth) and June (God of fire/smithing) were heavily involved with the Dwarves.
As for Mythal's murder, I think the important thing is that she describes it as a betrayal, meaning that the gods directly described as her family (Elgar'nan, Falon'din, Dirthamen) were most likely involved. Andruil is also fairly obviously involved since Mythal directly opposed her. I also think that part of Solas's character of being ironically tragic/wrong, not all of the Evanuris were involved. As I said, I have doubts that Ghilan'nain was involved. Sylaise is also seen as primarily a healer and a goddess of childbirth, and Mythal is protector goddess of motherhood, so there might not be bad blood between them (or Sylaise could be jealous of Mythal, that being her reason for murder). June is another odd one, and another toss up since there are arguments for and against his involvement.
Overall, a fun and interesting topic.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jun 11, 2019 2:46:14 GMT
I agree that not all of the Elvhen pantheon were involved. It sounds... too neat. I actually think Dirthamen counts as one of them.
In the fade scene in DAI with Flemeth, there is a statue in the background with a knife in the back, blood pouring from the eyes into a pool like tears.
Maybe Dirthamen somehow knew about the murder plot (keeper of secrets) and begged his father and brother to not go through with it, but they threatened him, and he kept the secret. After witnessing what his family could do to their own flesh and blood, he just submitted, not wanting to be the next Mythal. I don’t think Solas necessarily understands everything that occurred with Mythal’s death.
Ghilan’nain is interesting because her backstory follows a vital theme within the dragon age universe thus far: godhood, ascension to godhood, and what actually makes a god a god? I wonder if the writers have a deeper story to tell with her. In one of her codex entries, it seems that she was offered the “gods power” by Andruil.
Since we know these “gods” were just powerful mages, it makes me wonder what this power was? A foci to amass slaves? Something from the titans? Secret to immortality? Who knows.
There is a chant to Sylaise that basically cements she was not only jealous of Mythal, but other Evanuris. The “song” sure seems to me that Sylaise is empowering herself through her slaves. It is said that she mostly kept to herself, so maybe the girl had some insecurity issues lol.
And omg, I need more info on June. Something is definitely up with him and the dwarves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 11, 2019 20:36:42 GMT
This is an interesting subject and one that I have thought about a lot. It was of considerable annoyance to me that "I suspect you have questions" in Trespasser didn't allow me to pursue one very important question, who killed Mythal and how? Of course, it is hardly surprising that Solas would steer the conversation away from the latter, because whilst Mythal might not have been permanently killed, it is clear she was considerably reduced in power and effectively removed the scene at the time. Given how powerful the individual Evanuris appear to have been, it would be helpful to know the means as it might also be effective against Solas.
I'd refer you back to the mosaics that we can find scattered across the countryside. Whilst it is possible that these scenes are red herrings planted by the writers, it is also possible they do give clues. Whilst on the face of it they seem to depict scenes from ancient Tevinter, the dwarf, Gatsi, tells us on several occasions that they appear to have been tampered with and the actual scenes are far older. One in particular could be relevant to the murder. It is in connection with the one entitled the Archdemon. Now I'm going to substitute Evanuris for Magister and Elvhen for Tevinter.
I gather this one is titled "The Archdemon." Not "The Three Archdemons," and I'll get back to that. Good construction here. A nice balanced carving, if you consider Tevinters to have equal weight to the dragon's arse. Not a bad comparison, you ask me.
Seven evanuris and some easy symmetry to give a host something to sound smart about after dinner. If I had to guess, they'd go on about how four lines, and four evanuris, are part of the dragon and favored. Two lines are piercing it, so they do more damage than good. And one, that big one farthest out, has missed the thing completely.......
Now, the first thing those spits don't understand is that carving isn't just what you see. They've never made a physical thing and don't know the how of it. Depth is all tricks of shadow and such; the actual cuts are only as deep as the sculptor wants. And if you take a flat edge to this thing, what she wanted is strange. Because what I'm thinking is that this is one Archdemon and the three heads are the reaction to the three lines. Because piercing-line-one is on the same tier as the Elvhen second from left, and the middle head turned away. Piercing-line-two is the same tier as Elvhen fifth from left, and the first head turned away. And the line that misses it, that's the same tier as the big Elvhen, farthest out. And the dragon is looking straight at him. So the ones who did damage, the dragon doesn't care. The one who faked it, the dragon gives him an eyeful.
The part I've underlined would fit with your idea that a group of Evanuris actually made the killing blow on the dragon (Mythal) but she knew the one who was really behind the deed even though he took no actual part in the murder.
I also wonder if there was a significance to the way the Temple of Mythal was arranged. Andruil, Falon-Din and June were in the outer court, whilst the other four were in the inner sanctum of the High Priest. Were Andruil and Falon-Din placed outside after their confrontation with Mythal? If so, then what of June? What did he do that caused offence?
And what was the great favour did June perform for Sylaise, for which she bestowed the gift shown to us in the Vir Dirthara?
I definitely think that Falon-Din was involved though. Mythal had crossed him twice, thwarting his ambitions. It occurred to me some time back that if the elves of that time were immortal, then a god of the dead would only have subjects to guide as a result of accident, disease or war. Thus he had a vested interest in promoting conflict, which he appears to have attempted first by challenging Elgar'nan and then subsequently more generally. Also, I wonder it was he who encouraged Andruil to go hunting in the Void, thus bringing back the plague that affected her lands. Killing Mythal would surely be the ultimate prize for the God of the Dead.
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Post by theascendent on Jun 11, 2019 21:01:37 GMT
I wonder if the war between the Evanuris and the Titans was similar to the war between the Olympian Gods and the Titans, I believe that the war was called the Titanomachy. This is just me guessing that this was the war that elevated the Evanuris to be revered and that the Titans were their opponents. Unless they were fighting each other or something else.
Although I do like the thematic idea of the Elves/Primordial Spirits (the people of the air) waging a war against the Titans (the children of the earth).
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Post by yogsothoth on Jun 11, 2019 23:44:16 GMT
I agree that not all of the Elvhen pantheon were involved. It sounds... too neat. I actually think Dirthamen counts as one of them. In the fade scene in DAI with Flemeth, there is a statue in the background with a knife in the back, blood pouring from the eyes into a pool like tears. Maybe Dirthamen somehow knew about the murder plot (keeper of secrets) and begged his father and brother to not go through with it, but they threatened him, and he kept the secret. After witnessing what his family could do to their own flesh and blood, he just submitted, not wanting to be the next Mythal. I don’t think Solas necessarily understands everything that occurred with Mythal’s death. I would also agree that of those that are directly said to be family to Mythal, Dirthamen would be the most likely to be innocent in regards to her murder. A thing that I think is interesting is that Dirthamen has some parallels with Morrigan. Both are associated with ravens/crows, both are children of Mythal/Flemeth, and both are interested in the secrets of the world. I hope that this isn't all coincidental. I think the gods power is being able to turn into a dragon, as they make a big deal about punishing elves that take the form of dragons since that form is supposed to be reserved for the Evanuris. If so, then what of June? What did he do that caused offence? June was the supposed weaponsmith for Andruil. It's likely that he would have made the weapon that "killed" Mythal. Then it becomes a matter of if he knew what the weapon would be used for. I wonder if the war between the Evanuris and the Titans was similar to the war between the Olympian Gods and the Titans, I believe that the war was called the Titanomachy. This is just me guessing that this was the war that elevated the Evanuris to be revered and that the Titans were their opponents. Unless they were fighting each other or something else. Although I do like the thematic idea of the Elves/Primordial Spirits (the people of the air) waging a war against the Titans (the children of the earth). The war that made the Evanuris gods seems to have been with "The Sun," or at least some other entity/entities, mostly because the Evanuris seem to already be revered as gods before they meet the Titans.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 12, 2019 2:21:23 GMT
I always thought it was weird when he said they murdered her.
Like, really? All of them?
Mythal got Caesar'd? They pulled an orient express?
Was there a war where no one was on mythals side? Was she executed (unanimously or by majority vote) for breaking a rule and Solas considers it murder? Did they really unite and, what, ambush her? What would prompt the disparate Evanuris to all unite for the same kill? Or is Solas just conflating the evanuris's guilt and only a few are really responsible?
Perhaps Mythal stopped falon'din from doing something terrible but in doing so over stepped and violated whatever rules of conduct/ treaties the Evanuris might've used to temper their behaviour towards other? Prompting reprimand from the whole group - or atleast enough of the group?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 12, 2019 18:39:55 GMT
Perhaps Mythal stopped falon'din from doing something terrible but in doing so over stepped and violated whatever rules of conduct/ treaties the Evanuris might've used to temper their behaviour towards other? Well Solas does mention how when Mythal brought him to heel, Falon'Din was bloodied in "his own temple". That might have been considered sacrilege by the other Evanuris or at least used as a reason by some of them to gang up against Mythal. It is odd though. Mythal was the acknowledged dispenser of justice and every time one of the Evanuris got out of hand, the others seemed to look to her for judgement on the matter. Lesser elvhen also seemed to have a right of appeal to her. So she was essentially the custodian of the law and everyone saw her as such. However, she did seem to be in charge of the lyrium mining operation and this may have been the reason for her death. Solas says it was their lust for power that caused them to kill her. Lyrium is a source of power and if she was rationing it, may be the others resented the fact. Also, we don't know exactly when or how red lyrium came into being. I think it is pretty definite now it was around back then and thus so was the Blight. Was it the discovery of red lyrium that caused the revolt against her authority? Remember the idol we find in DA2 and which has been shown again in the Teaser trailer for DA4 could well have been intended to show Mythal by her dwarven subjects and we were told the thaig pre-dated modern dwarven society. Red lyrium has a bad influence on those in its vicinity but particularly those who are susceptible to corruption, so may be that is what turned them against her. |
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 13, 2019 1:24:24 GMT
Perhaps Mythal stopped falon'din from doing something terrible but in doing so over stepped and violated whatever rules of conduct/ treaties the Evanuris might've used to temper their behaviour towards other? Well Solas does mention how when Mythal brought him to heel, Falon'Din was bloodied in "his own temple". That might have been considered sacrilege by the other Evanuris or at least used as a reason by some of them to gang up against Mythal. It is odd though. Mythal was the acknowledged dispenser of justice and every time one of the Evanuris got out of hand, the others seemed to look to her for judgement on the matter. Lesser elvhen also seemed to have a right of appeal to her. So she was essentially the custodian of the law and everyone saw her as such. However, she did seem to be in charge of the lyrium mining operation and this may have been the reason for her death. Solas says it was their lust for power that caused them to kill her. Lyrium is a source of power and if she was rationing it, may be the others resented the fact. Also, we don't know exactly when or how red lyrium came into being. I think it is pretty definite now it was around back then and thus so was the Blight. Was it the discovery of red lyrium that caused the revolt against her authority? Remember the idol we find in DA2 and which has been shown again in the Teaser trailer for DA4 could well have been intended to show Mythal by her dwarven subjects and we were told the thaig pre-dated modern dwarven society. Red lyrium has a bad influence on those in its vicinity but particularly those who are susceptible to corruption, so may be that is what turned them against her. The Primeval Thaig predates the founding of the first thaig which is seems to be the start of the written memories and the official meeting of the elves/dwarves is -4600 ancient so the Thaig defininately was around in elven times . Since Mythal was fighting titans I'm sure that dwarves and elves met long before that however and when they started the memories they deliberatly chose only to include post titan independence events. Given the statues and temples in the primeval thaigs (there are atleast two based on the linked codex) I wonder if the dwarves worshipped the evanuris for awhile before deciding there were terrible too and "reseting" their history. I wonder how the red lyrium might relate to that.? Perhaps they abandoned them when their thaigs became corrupted? Since the primeval thaig predates the memories - Red lyrium therefore predates the first recording of darkspawn by a lot as they attacked their more distant thaigs first meaing they showed up after they'd built many thaigs aka long after the first thaig and start of the memories. I suppose it makes sense that you could have the taint present for a long time before darkspawn are, given that you need a broodmother to make them, which requires a female ghoul to devour large amounts of tainted flesh. So as long as there are few, if any, tainted you couldn't actually make a brood mother. Not enough flesh to devour. Maybe Mythal started quarantining the red lyrium and the other Evanuris wanted it, motivating them to kill her and inspiring Solas to stop them before they broke her quarantine any more then they perhaps already had?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 13, 2019 16:36:34 GMT
Maybe Mythal started quarantining the red lyrium and the other Evanuris wanted it, motivating them to kill her and inspiring Solas to stop them before they broke her quarantine any more then they perhaps already had? This would tie in with the story we found in the hidden chamber (in Trespasser) which seems to have been connected with Solas. There was something in the depths that the elves were terrified of and sealed in, with the message (probably from Solas): "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." That seems to confirm his assertion that he took action because otherwise they would have destroyed everyone and they killed Mythal because of their lust for power. Solas also seems to know more about the Blight than he openly admitted to. Then it is also possible that the Magisters breaking into the Golden/Black City simultaneously broke the seals the elves had placed in the Deep Roads, allowing the Blight or blighted creatures contained there to escape. Or may be they would have failed eventually anyway because of the limitation of magic caused by the Veil. Apparently the Crossroads are gradually decaying (it is something a mage/elf Inquisitor can sense there) and so that may be true of other magical structures and wards that weren't immediately destroyed by raising the Veil because at the time they were too strong but have weakened with the passage of time.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2019 8:15:53 GMT
Re-activating this thread in order to further discussion about the Evanuris and elves generally.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 7, 2019 8:19:41 GMT
Oct 7, 2019 5:27:18 GMT 1 AlleluiaElizabeth said:
The above may have also happened with the *establishment* of the Dales, not their fall. I'm iffy on that point. Depends on the timeline of Gisharel's life (assuming Gisharel was an actual person), as well as the actual age of the various ruins we see in the Exalted Plains. Cus it'd be odd for a people who had anti-evanuris tales to build bathhouses and coliseums dedicated to them. However, if the buildings were actually Arlathan-era sites that were already there when the elves (re)settled the Dales (which I think is implied by the presence of things like fade runes that lead to Dirthamen's actual arlathan-era temple being in one of them), and the elves just repurposed them without defacing them or something, then it could still work.
I got the impression from the biography for Neria in WoT2 that Gisharel was a clan leader in more recent times, as he was said to be the predecessor of the current Keeper of clan Ralaferin. The reason he is the only Keeper quoted in the texts is because it was his idea to share elven culture with the human scholars in the hope that greater understanding would lead to greater respect for the Dalish. This idea was not universally supported by the other Dalish, some of the more conservative clans (presumably like the one in Masked Empire) actually thinking less of his entire clan as a result.
I was somewhat puzzled by the ruins we encountered in the Dales. Clearly the majority were not built by modern elves but must have dated to an earlier time. I even find it hard to believe that the shrine to the Emerald Knights could be anything other than a use of an already existing construct. The reason being that is was less than 300 years from the foundation of the Dales to its destruction and given the new arrivals had to build their civilisation from scratch (or so we are led to believe), they would have had other things to occupy their time than build numerous large structures outside of the capital city of Halamshiral. To have achieved that amount of building in such a short time would have required a large amount of probably forced manual labour, which is unlikely to have gone down well with former slaves, particularly those who had just escaped such drudgery. This is why the burial place of the forest in the Emerald Graves and the enclosed area in the Exalted Plains made more sense as they both fitted the burial rites recorded in the codices and would have been a practical way of dealing with their dead.
Which begs the question, who did they ascribe the ruins to? If they realised they were relics of Elvhenan then one wonders what they made of the huge wolf statue overlooking the Exalted Plains. Presumably once the Emerald Knights with their wolf guardians were established then it was simply regarded as symbolic of them but I do wonder where the idea of wolf guardians came from. So it is possible that murals showing symbolic representations of Fen'Harel's followers protecting elves from their enemies were misinterpreted as showing real wolves.
Anyway, I seem to have steered the conversation away from the Blue Wraith but would be happy to continue the debate elsewhere on one of the elven threads.
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