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Post by biggydx on Jun 15, 2019 20:36:17 GMT
[Main quest in this case refers to missions along the critical path (i.e. missions that MUST be completed in order to finish the game)]
There may be a better term for it, but when I mention the term "exclusive missions," I'm referring to moments during the main quest where you make a choice and it leads you down one particular mission type; making the other mission no longer playable. An example of this can be seen in Dragon Age: Inquisition, where if you choose to recruit the Templars you'll be given the quest, "Champions of the Just," while siding with the Mages will give you the mission, "In Hushed Whispers." Depending on which side you chose, the other faction mission is no longer available for that playthrough. Another example (outside of BioWare games) is with Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, where you choose to either steal a chemical substance from a bank vault (to prevent a chemical attack), or you can go after the sister (and bomb-maker) of the games main antagonist.
For some players, these missions are enjoyable because it forces the player to have a make a well-defined choice (with not many other options), and the events that take place inside this mission can often have reverberating impacts throughout the rest of the main campaign. This also leads these players to try out multiple playthroughs to get different perspectives of the story, world, and/or characters.
On the other hand, some players dislike this feature because it feels like they are being punished by not having the opportunity to experience everything the game has to offer; in one playthrough. For relatively lengthy campaigns, this could mean spending several dozens - if not hundreds - of hours just to see the other side of the campaign.
From a developers standpoint, this likely leads to significantly more work, as you're essentially building multiple stories into one game. Depending on budgeting and development time, the settings in which these exclusive missions take place, how much the narrative differs within these missions, the impacts these missions have on the main quest, and how many choices the player has in each of these missions, can vary drastically. While, ideally, a developer would like each of these missions to be as distinct and pivotal to the campaign as possible, realistically this isn't always the case.
I think for me, I don't mind there being a good number of missions like these, so long as it makes sense for why the choices are so binary; or limited.
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Post by theascendent on Jun 15, 2019 20:44:02 GMT
Exclusivity in certain quests that can only be done for a specific race/class encourages replay and further grounds us in the world.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jun 15, 2019 23:24:10 GMT
Slight favor. It makes playthroughs more unique and once finished, it encourages me to do a new playthrough with a totally different character going the other way. But only a slight favor since this can get out of hand quickly, a handful of mission would be great, more than that would probably reduce the overall length of the main campaign and reduce the content for each playthrough which is bad.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jun 16, 2019 0:08:24 GMT
I voted "slightly against" since I'm not opposed necessarily, but I don't think they *should* be there. I'm all for replayability but as long as the game offers meaningful decisions along the way, I don't really think an entirely separate mission is needed.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 16, 2019 0:37:19 GMT
I'll accept this if, and ONLY if 'critical path' makes up the vast majority of the game. The critical path of DAI consists of like... 7 quests, and if it weren't for the arbitrary gating that forces you to engage in the side content, I could finish the story in like a day. I don't see why I should have to miss out on one or more main-path quests when there are hardly any to begin with.
I suppose I would also accept if the story took place over a fixed timeline, similar to the Persona series, and budgeting my time to make the most efficient gains was a core mechanic of the gameplay.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jun 16, 2019 0:48:30 GMT
Slightly support. If main quest, not too much should be different IMO. Everything else, get wacky. No, I don't love Witcher 2's alternate Acts.
But everything else go wild - as well as ending quest/epilogue situations/summaries.
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Post by Gilli on Jun 16, 2019 1:31:38 GMT
I'm against it. I want to save/help everyone, I can't do that if Option A will not let me help the people in option B.
ETA: I don't need such options to replay a game. I replayed DAI 7 times. 5 Times I helped the mages, 2 times the templars (1st time so I played it, 2nd time because it made sense RP wise) <-- reason why I only helped them twice: I do not like timed missions, they stress me out and I play games to relax, not anxiously look at the clock, if I still have time to save someone.
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Post by Frost on Jun 16, 2019 20:05:56 GMT
I voted for support. I like branching quests in general as well as class- and race-specific dialogue and side quests. I like them even if I am going to play a game only once because it makes the choices have more meaning and/or be more personalized to the pc's background.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 16, 2019 20:32:36 GMT
Support.
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 17, 2019 10:49:34 GMT
The term you're looking for is a "branching questline". I am in full support. There are different ways to do this, though. One of the best implementations I've seen so far was in Spellforce: Shadow of the Phoenix (2006), where you got modified questlines depending on whether you imported your Rune Warrior from the main game or the one from the first expansion. There were only two branch-exclusive quests (similar to DAI), but dialogue and what you did within the quests varied a great deal including dealing with different characters, meeting certain NPCs as enemies instead of friends etc.. If you play as one of the two protagonist variants, you even meet the other as an NPC. The two branches felt very different.
Another example of a branching quest that was very well done was "Captured!" in DAO. You could take your chance fighting, and one NPC would end up dead if you did, or you could let yourself be imprisoned, then escape in mainly two different ways: stealth or combat. I don't recall if you could also just wait for your companions to come for you.
So, what I want is quest complexity. It doesn't necessarily need to be a branching questline, but at the very least there should be different ways to act within quests, with *real* differences in how you go about resolving them (i.e. not restricted to dialogue) and *real* consequences (meaning, again, not restricted to a single line in a dialogue somewhere in an inconsequential corner of a companion's dialogue tree). And developers should not be afraid of differences in difficulty between the branches. If one way can bypass an obstacle, then let it be so. Maybe add a different one. But if I look for a path with the intention to avoid combat, it's hugely disappointing to be forced into the same fight nonetheless (DA2, looking at you).
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 18, 2019 2:17:25 GMT
Death to artificial replay value gimmicks! Up with player agency, down with developer's (read: author's) hubris!
Skyrim/FO4 is the best model, for me, anyway. Not only is there no exclusion of content, the main quest is entirely optional. You can even skip major portions of the main quest, and the game accommodates as best as it can.
I'd love to see a game done where no content is put behind a hard lock, but is soft locked by in-game consequences. By which I mean, suppose there is a choice between missions A and B -- like Champions of the Just vs. In Hushed Whispers. The story (NPCs, Codex, narrative) strongly discourage trying to do both. If you do A, you will lose reputation, credibility, maybe even treasure, if you also try to do B. Likewise, if you do B, you're guilty of treason and will be a fugitive if you also try to do A. You can still do both if you really want to, but you will suffer the consequences that you've been thoroughly warned about.
Now that would be a meaningful choice.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jun 18, 2019 6:59:01 GMT
I'm not a fan. It's interesting when it's a once off or if it's at the end of the game, but games like TW2 or Obsidian's recent fare drive me up the wall. It gets to a point where they're so obsessed with "choices and consequences" that they've turned the plot into swiss cheese.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Jun 18, 2019 19:10:12 GMT
I'm happy for choices to both open and close doors. I'd like to avoid filler quests and have side quests be branching too.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 20, 2019 14:53:48 GMT
I'd love to see a game done where no content is put behind a hard lock, but is soft locked by in-game consequences. By which I mean, suppose there is a choice between missions A and B -- like Champions of the Just vs. In Hushed Whispers. The story (NPCs, Codex, narrative) strongly discourage trying to do both. If you do A, you will lose reputation, credibility, maybe even treasure, if you also try to do B. Likewise, if you do B, you're guilty of treason and will be a fugitive if you also try to do A. You can still do both if you really want to, but you will suffer the consequences that you've been thoroughly warned about. Now that would be a meaningful choice. What kind of consequences are we talking about, exactly? This could get expensive. OTOH, branching's expensive too, if done right. As for the topic, I'm fine with exclusives. Sometimes you can't do everything you'd like to do. (Easy for me to say, since I'm not subject to Gamer's OCD or any of its attendant pathologies.)
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Post by colfoley on Jun 20, 2019 19:06:09 GMT
I'd love to see a game done where no content is put behind a hard lock, but is soft locked by in-game consequences. By which I mean, suppose there is a choice between missions A and B -- like Champions of the Just vs. In Hushed Whispers. The story (NPCs, Codex, narrative) strongly discourage trying to do both. If you do A, you will lose reputation, credibility, maybe even treasure, if you also try to do B. Likewise, if you do B, you're guilty of treason and will be a fugitive if you also try to do A. You can still do both if you really want to, but you will suffer the consequences that you've been thoroughly warned about. Now that would be a meaningful choice. What kind of consequences are we talking about, exactly? This could get expensive. OTOH, branching's expensive too, if done right. As for the topic, I'm fine with exclusives. Sometimes you can't do everything you'd like to do. (Easy for me to say, since I'm not subject to Gamer's OCD or any of its attendant pathologies.) hell on this topic I read an article focused on Skyrim that said for proper role play you shouldn't make your character do everything. That it often doesn't make sense to be a completionist.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 21, 2019 16:06:17 GMT
My main objection to exclusive paths is where character development of important characters is hidden behind one route or the other.
It happened in DA2 with Meredith where you only got to learn her backstory if you supported her. However, at least this made some sense because she was willing to open up to a supporter rather than someone she knew to be hostile.
Where it was annoying was in DAI with Corypheus. It was fair enough with his lieutenants but not with Corypheus himself. He was meant to be the main antagonist and yet any insights into his character only came if you chose Champions of the Just, for purely arbitrary reasons. I also felt the chose of Samson for the vessel if you chose Hushed Whispers also had no particular justification from a lore/story perspective but was purely because he was the lieutenant on that path.
To be honest I felt the choice between mages and Templars should not have impacted on the main story path the way it did. Ultimately it was a purely cosmetic choice with no impact on the outcome. I don't mind branching stories but not at the expense of character development or internal consistency in plot development.
Where choices worked better was in Origins where you ultimately resolved a main quest path by choosing either Templars or Mages, Werewolves or Elves and the help you received from then on reflected your choice. In DAI whilst the help we received in closing the Breach appeared different on the face of it, actually the one very brief scene was hardly different in its execution.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 21, 2019 22:10:09 GMT
What kind of consequences are we talking about, exactly? This could get expensive. OTOH, branching's expensive too, if done right. Consequences wouldn’t have to be full blown alternative branches. If the game has a reputation system, maybe your reputation goes from Paragon to Renegade. Maybe everything bought at a merchant costs 15% more. Maybe a companion quits your party. Maybe you have to pay a fine of 10,000 gold — and spend time in the slammer if you don’t have that much. Maybe 10x more bears spawn in Hafter’s Wood. Maybe all of the above.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 21, 2019 22:14:06 GMT
What kind of consequences are we talking about, exactly? This could get expensive. OTOH, branching's expensive too, if done right. As for the topic, I'm fine with exclusives. Sometimes you can't do everything you'd like to do. (Easy for me to say, since I'm not subject to Gamer's OCD or any of its attendant pathologies.) hell on this topic I read an article focused on Skyrim that said for proper role play you shouldn't make your character do everything. That it often doesn't make sense to be a completionist. Make that NEVER makes sense. But unlike Bioware games, Skyrim doesn’t force you to play one way or the other. You want to role play a strict Imperial and focus more on the civil war than the dragons? You can do that. Want to become the leader of every faction, from the Mages to the Brotherhood? You can do that too. Narrow or wide, shallow or deep, it accommodates all.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 22, 2019 2:36:19 GMT
It's easy to accommodate all when nothing you do matters.
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Post by biggydx on Jun 22, 2019 6:28:39 GMT
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Post by Frost on Jun 22, 2019 19:39:32 GMT
I never finished Skyrim's main quest and think that the way they handle story is a weak part of those games (with the strong part being open world/exploration).
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