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Post by Iddy on Jun 22, 2019 23:44:46 GMT
With the exception of Sera, all LIs are such goody goody people that it doesn't seem like it would be believable.
And before you ask, by evil I mean being as ruthless and shrewd as Leliana.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 22, 2019 23:47:32 GMT
I can see a character like that being able to romance Dorian or The Iron Bull.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 22, 2019 23:49:58 GMT
I can see a character like that being able to romance Dorian or The Iron Bull. How so?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 22, 2019 23:53:06 GMT
I can see a character like that being able to romance Dorian or The Iron Bull. How so? Well, Dorian seems a very pragmatic person like Leliana so with that comparison they could agree on quite a few things. And The Iron Bull is a mercenary spy so he doesn't have much of a moral compass, at least to the point where that would affect his opinion of you since he can't really talk.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,899 Likes: 24,172
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Jun 23, 2019 3:26:43 GMT
And before you ask, by evil I mean being as ruthless and shrewd as Leliana. Josephine is best friends with Leliana. I don't see why a romance with her wouldn't work, especially since she can be quite ruthless and shrewd diplomatically herself. She gets the better of the Antivan Merchant Princes, of all things.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 9:18:03 GMT
With the exception of Sera, all LIs are such goody goody people that it doesn't seem like it would be believable. And before you ask, by evil I mean being as ruthless and shrewd as Leliana. Why would Sera bad? I don't think, she would like an "evil" person. Sera can be annoying, but absolutely benevolent. If you think about, that she would like better a ruthless person, than the others in the Inner Circle, just because of she's able to kill people, then think about it: who's NOT in Thedas among our companioons.
Leliana also not "ruthless", she's pragmatic.
And what about Cassandra? A Seeker how can be goody-goody?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2019 18:04:29 GMT
With the exception of Sera, all LIs are such goody goody people that it doesn't seem like it would be believable. And before you ask, by evil I mean being as ruthless and shrewd as Leliana. Why would Sera bad? I don't think, she would like an "evil" person. Sera can be annoying, but absolutely benevolent. If you think about, that she would like better a ruthless person, than the others in the Inner Circle, just because of she's able to kill people, then think about it: who's NOT in Thedas among our companioons.
Leliana also not "ruthless", she's pragmatic. I dunno. If she's steeled towards the end of Inquisition, she does take a child hostage to force an enemy who loves him to fall in line. And Leiliana's tone of voice seems to communicate that she's more than willing to punish the kid if his aunt doesn't start watching her step yesterday. She didn't join the other Seekers in trying to exterminate the mages, she didn't even consider Lord Seeker Lucius's offer to help him destroy the world, she accepted that the Seeker order made some pretty serious mistakes and that there were people wronged by the system, and she said that she wanted to right past wrongs using the Divine's seat without stooping to avenging them. Sounds like a goody-goody to me. On topic: I romanced Dorian during my Evil Male Dwarf playthrough, but not because I thought Dorian was particularly evil himself. I just did it because I wanted a World-State where Dorian had romanced the Inquisitor. But if you're going for a ruthless LI for your ruthless character, why not Josephine? She has scruples about outright killing, sure, but some of the things she is okay with (and personally orders, if you give your blessing) aren't particularly nice either. One of the maneuvers she can make during the Ben-Hassrath mission to choose an heir in Lydes involves destroying a woman's marriage, and given how easy she claims it is you have to wonder how much practice she's had. She's perfectly okay with you sweeping Ameridan's true heritage under the rug, and willing to help you do it. Hell, during the Assassin War Table mission she advises giving Heir the go-ahead to murder someone, since "it is not for us to say she should not."
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2019 18:23:12 GMT
I don’t count the War Table lines as canon to the characters due to how often they have at least one of the advisers behave completely out of character. It’s clear they wrote the missions with one advisor in mind but since they had to have options they just put them where there were openings.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2019 18:26:15 GMT
I don’t count the War Table lines as canon to the characters due to how often they have at least one of the advisers behave completely out of character. It’s clear they wrote the missions with one advisor in mind but since they had to have options they just put them where there were openings. Fair enough. But deciding not to do that is probably the best way to find an evil LI in this game, since the companions are all mostly benevolent people apart from this. (Well that, and because you can't romance Steeled-Leiliana or Vivienne, and not only is Blackwall trying to move away from the horrible thing he did all those years ago, Iddy's male PC couldn't romance him anyway.)
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 18:30:53 GMT
Why would Sera bad? I don't think, she would like an "evil" person. Sera can be annoying, but absolutely benevolent. If you think about, that she would like better a ruthless person, than the others in the Inner Circle, just because of she's able to kill people, then think about it: who's NOT in Thedas among our companioons.
Leliana also not "ruthless", she's pragmatic. I dunno. If she's steeled towards the end of Inquisition, she does take a child hostage to force an enemy who loves him to stay her hand. And her tone of voice seems to communicate that she's more than willing to punish the kid if his aunt doesn't start watching her step yesterday.She didn't join the other Seekers in trying to exterminate the mages, she didn't even consider Lord Seeker Lucius's offer to help him destroy the world, she accepted that the Seeker order made some pretty serious mistakes and that there were people wronged by the system, and she said that she wanted to right past wrongs using the Divine's seat without stooping to avenging them. Sounds like a goody-goody to me. On topic: I romanced Dorian during my Evil Male Dwarf playthrough, but not because I thought Dorian was particularly evil himself. I just did it because I wanted a World-State where Dorian had romanced the Inquisitor. But if you're going for a ruthless LI for your ruthless character, why not Josephine? She has scruples about outright killing, sure, but some of the things she is okay with (and personally orders, if you give your blessing) aren't particularly nice either. One of the maneuvers she can make during the Ben-Hassrath mission to choose an heir in Lydes involves destroying a woman's marriage, and given how easy she claims it is you have to wonder how much practice she's had. She's perfectly okay with you sweeping Ameridan's true heritage under the rug, and willing to help you do it. Hell, during the Assassin War Table mission she advises giving Heir the go-ahead to murder someone, since "it is not for us to say she should not." So: Cassandra is "goody-goody"? Just because didn't went crazy like the others? I don't think so. (No, I don't hate Cassandra, and she's just as good as a Seeker can be, or more. But not "goody-goody".
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2019 18:31:31 GMT
I dunno. If she's steeled towards the end of Inquisition, she does take a child hostage to force an enemy who loves him to stay her hand. And her tone of voice seems to communicate that she's more than willing to punish the kid if his aunt doesn't start watching her step yesterday.She didn't join the other Seekers in trying to exterminate the mages, she didn't even consider Lord Seeker Lucius's offer to help him destroy the world, she accepted that the Seeker order made some pretty serious mistakes and that there were people wronged by the system, and she said that she wanted to right past wrongs using the Divine's seat without stooping to avenging them. Sounds like a goody-goody to me.
On topic: I romanced Dorian during my Evil Male Dwarf playthrough, but not because I thought Dorian was particularly evil himself. I just did it because I wanted a World-State where Dorian had romanced the Inquisitor. But if you're going for a ruthless LI for your ruthless character, why not Josephine? She has scruples about outright killing, sure, but some of the things she is okay with (and personally orders, if you give your blessing) aren't particularly nice either. One of the maneuvers she can make during the Ben-Hassrath mission to choose an heir in Lydes involves destroying a woman's marriage, and given how easy she claims it is you have to wonder how much practice she's had. She's perfectly okay with you sweeping Ameridan's true heritage under the rug, and willing to help you do it. Hell, during the Assassin War Table mission she advises giving Heir the go-ahead to murder someone, since "it is not for us to say she should not." So: Cassandra is goody-goody? I don't think so. I think I just demonstrated that she is. At the very least, she's too much of one to work for what Iddy's trying to do.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 18:34:19 GMT
So: Cassandra is goody-goody? I don't think so. I think I just demonstrated that she is. At the very least, she's too much of one to work for what Iddy's trying to do. And I think, nobody in the Inquisition-squad would like an "evil" Inquisitor, but everyone of them would be able to accept a cruelly pragmatic one.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2019 18:36:27 GMT
I think I just demonstrated that she is. At the very least, she's too much of one to work for what Iddy's trying to do. And I think, nobody in the Inquisition-squad would like an "evil" Inquisitor, but everyone of them would be able to accept a cruelly pragmatic one. Fair enough. There's limits to how evil this game lets you be anyway, since it doesn't usually let you do horribly evil things for the sake of it or do beyond the pale necromancy to accomplish your goals. Although there is one point during Dorian's romance quest where you can solve a problem for Dorian by committing cold-blooded murder. But Dorian breaks off the relationship after that, since he's not a fan of dealing with annoying merchants by stabbing them. Which means he's the one LI we know is willing to draw a line in the sand for moral reasons.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2019 18:38:10 GMT
I don’t count the War Table lines as canon to the characters due to how often they have at least one of the advisers behave completely out of character. It’s clear they wrote the missions with one advisor in mind but since they had to have options they just put them where there were openings. Fair enough. But deciding not to do that is probably the best way to find an evil LI in this game, since the companions are all mostly benevolent people apart from this. (Well that, and because you can't romance Steeled-Leiliana or Vivienne, and not only is Blackwall trying to move away from the horrible thing he did all those years ago, Iddy's male PC couldn't romance him anyway.) That’s why I think for a male dwarf the only options for them is that way is Dorian and The Iron Bull. Sera and Rainier aren’t interested in men and Cullen and Solas aren’t interested in men or dwarves. And Cassandra and Josephine have too much in conflict with that personality for a healthy relationship.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 18:40:55 GMT
And I think, nobody in the Inquisition-squad would like an "evil" Inquisitor, but everyone of them would be able to accept a cruelly pragmatic one. Fair enough. There's limits to how evil this game lets you be anyway... although it's worth noting that you can't take the very most evil path in Dorian's romance quest without him breaking off the relationship, since while cold-blooded murder solves his problem for him he does have some sense of proportion. So, that speaks well of him. Josie also able to accept her problem solved with murder, while doesn't like it. Dorian's no more inclined to love an "evil" guy than the others. (I didn't do the murderer way in Dorian's quest.)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2019 18:41:45 GMT
Fair enough. But deciding not to do that is probably the best way to find an evil LI in this game, since the companions are all mostly benevolent people apart from this. (Well that, and because you can't romance Steeled-Leiliana or Vivienne, and not only is Blackwall trying to move away from the horrible thing he did all those years ago, Iddy's male PC couldn't romance him anyway.) That’s why I think for a male dwarf the only options for them is that way is Dorian and The Iron Bull. Sera and Rainier aren’t interested in men and Cullen and Solas aren’t interested in men or dwarves. And Cassandra and Josephine have too much in conflict with that personality for a healthy relationship. Well, again: that's only true if you ignore a fairly large section of the game, and the section of the game where Josephine is the most active. I get why one might, but if you don't ignore it, then you'll see Josephine get her hands dirty enough to suspect that this relationship might work after all.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 18:42:08 GMT
Fair enough. But deciding not to do that is probably the best way to find an evil LI in this game, since the companions are all mostly benevolent people apart from this. (Well that, and because you can't romance Steeled-Leiliana or Vivienne, and not only is Blackwall trying to move away from the horrible thing he did all those years ago, Iddy's male PC couldn't romance him anyway.) That’s why I think for a male dwarf the only options for them is that way is Dorian and The Iron Bull. Sera and Rainier aren’t interested in men and Cullen and Solas aren’t interested in men or dwarves. And Cassandra and Josephine have too much in conflict with that personality for a healthy relationship. Again: Cassandra is a Seeker. I don't have to say more. Josie's best friend is Leliana. Iddy spoke about a Leliana-kind dwarf.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2019 19:02:01 GMT
That’s why I think for a male dwarf the only options for them is that way is Dorian and The Iron Bull. Sera and Rainier aren’t interested in men and Cullen and Solas aren’t interested in men or dwarves. And Cassandra and Josephine have too much in conflict with that personality for a healthy relationship. Again: Cassandra is a Seeker. I don't have to say more. Josie's best friend is Leliana. Iddy spoke about a Leliana-kind dwarf. You are far too biased to have the conversation with regarding Cassandra. Also Josephine doesn’t like how Leliana is acting and wants her to be her softened self again.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 20:00:09 GMT
Again: Cassandra is a Seeker. I don't have to say more. Josie's best friend is Leliana. Iddy spoke about a Leliana-kind dwarf. You are far too biased to have the conversation with regarding Cassandra. Also Josephine doesn’t like how Leliana is acting and wants her to be her softened self again. No. This is the fact, she's a Seeker. The Seekers should bring cruel decisions. Annulment for example. Cassandra was a Seeker, when they Annulled the Dairsmuid Circle. Perhaps Josie doesn't like Leliana's methods, still She's her best friend.
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gervaise21
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 23, 2019 20:29:02 GMT
I think more to the point, how many of the Inner Circle stay around to the end no matter what the Inquisitor does? I believe Dorian is the only one who will actually walk out before the final battle and that is because the Inquisitor punches him. I have no idea if it is possible to romance him and yet get him so critical of your decisions that the option to punch him is still available. It would require very low approval and that is not likely to be the case if you romance him as that requires a certain level of approval for his personal quest to trigger in the first place that leads onto it. This applies to any of the romance options, apart from Josephine and Cullen where I assume it just triggers at a certain point once you get to Skyhold.
I don't think any of the companions would necessarily criticise the Inquisitor for simply being ruthless and definitely not for being shrewd in their dealings. Dorian would not approve of you making Alexius tranquil but as that option is only available to a mage Inquisitor, the problem is not going to arise for a dwarf. Nevertheless, if you are going for a male romance I think the Iron Bull would be the better option because of his background. It is up to you whether you think your ruthless dwarf would sacrifice the Chargers or not, so that may inform your decision.
I think Josephine would actually be more pragmatic about decisions you make as a shrewd/ruthless Inquisitor than Cassandra would. Josephine is an old hand at the game and politics generally. She doesn't like killing herself but is ruthless enough at achieving her aims by other means. She has no qualms about employing a band of assassins to protect her business operation even though they were originally on the opposing side, so definitely pragmatic in her outlook if it gets the job done. The main question you should ask is would your dwarf be prepared to go through with the poetry and flowers approach required for Cassandra or would be better suited by fighting a duel?
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Post by Iddy on Jun 23, 2019 20:42:04 GMT
That’s why I think for a male dwarf the only options for them is that way is Dorian and The Iron Bull. Sera and Rainier aren’t interested in men and Cullen and Solas aren’t interested in men or dwarves. And Cassandra and Josephine have too much in conflict with that personality for a healthy relationship. Well, again: that's only true if you ignore a fairly large section of the game, and the section of the game where Josephine is the most active. I get why one might, but if you don't ignore it, then you'll see Josephine get her hands dirty enough to suspect that this relationship might work after all. Or, at least, she tolerates it enough to be friends with Leliana.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2019 20:48:32 GMT
Well, again: that's only true if you ignore a fairly large section of the game, and the section of the game where Josephine is the most active. I get why one might, but if you don't ignore it, then you'll see Josephine get her hands dirty enough to suspect that this relationship might work after all. Or, at least, she tolerates it enough to be friends with Leliana. And there is a big difference between being friends with someone who does things you don’t like and being in a relationship with someone who does things you don’t like.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 24, 2019 6:54:05 GMT
Well, again: that's only true if you ignore a fairly large section of the game, and the section of the game where Josephine is the most active. I get why one might, but if you don't ignore it, then you'll see Josephine get her hands dirty enough to suspect that this relationship might work after all. Or, at least, she tolerates it enough to be friends with Leliana. I wasn't talking about the stuff she puts up with from Leiliana, though. I was talking about the stuff she personally suggests, and personally orders if the Inquisitor okays it. She doesn't get as dirty as Leiliana, but she gets dirty. Leiliana or Vivienne would be better choices for what you're trying to do, but neither of those two is an option, and there is stuff to recommend Josephine. Fair enough. There's limits to how evil this game lets you be anyway... although it's worth noting that you can't take the very most evil path in Dorian's romance quest without him breaking off the relationship, since while cold-blooded murder solves his problem for him he does have some sense of proportion. So, that speaks well of him. Josie also able to accept her problem solved with murder, while doesn't like it. Dorian's no more inclined to love an "evil" guy than the others. (I didn't do the murderer way in Dorian's quest.) But as far as I understand it, Dorian isn't willing to accept you solving the problem this way. Like I said, he's scared off if you solve his problem with unnecessary bloodshed. (Which is a shame, since that would have been in-character for the ruthless Inquisitor I was playing. I wound up compromising by taking Leiliana's suggestion to cheat the guy.) Josephine has a problem with you solving her problems by violence (or maybe sacrificing agents to do so; I think the mission statements are a bit ambiguous) but it doesn't make the romance impossible. So as far as we can tell, he's less inclined to love a truly evil Inquisitor than Josephine, right?
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 24, 2019 8:02:59 GMT
And there is a big difference between being friends with someone who does things you don’t like and being in a relationship with someone who does things you don’t like. Actually I think a person is more likely to be in a relationship with someone who does things they don't approve of than be friends with them. How often does a person get into a relationship because they are attracted to the other and when they discover what they are really like, persist because they are either besotted with them or have the romantic notion they can change them. Why do people stay abusive relationships despite what their lover does to them, irrespective of what their partner does to other people? By contrast whilst a friend may continue to be loyal up to a point, they are less likely to be worried about jeopardising their relationship by being honest with their friend if their actions disturb them. If the person persists with such behaviour I think they would actually find it easier to walk away than a lover would. In both cases, if the person was aware of the behaviour before they became close to the person, then it is likely it would never happen, although I know of a very tragic case in my own family where someone had been warned about the true nature of their potential lover but went ahead because they were convinced they could be a good influence on him, only for that not to be the case and paying for it with their life. However, if I understand Iddy correctly, it is more a question of whether his dwarf could credibly be attracted to the person given the way they present themselves to him. This is why I have suggested he might be more attracted to Iron Bull or Josephine initially because overall their outlook seems closer to his own. It should be remembered that the Inquisitor is offered their leadership role immediately on arrival at Skyhold before any of the romances begin in earnest. There has already been time for the companions to get an idea of what kind of person you are by your behaviour up to then. If they really do not approve of you, then your approval will remain low and the romance will never get off the ground. Clearly the way the romances are presented in the game it would seem they continue once they have started regardless of what you do. By this I mean once the romance is locked in. Clearly if you do something in the personal romance quest to alter their opinion, like killing the merchant in Dorian's romance quest, then that will end it but thereafter it is only the Inquisitor who is able to end it. With some romances it is not possible to end it at all once you are locked in. I believe the only exception to this is Sera, who will end it with Lavellan if you do not say you are going to abandon your culture entirely for her, which to be honest is something I feel that Lavellan should have realised would be a sticking point before starting the relationship but, as I say above, may be they thought they could live with the criticism and Sera would learn to tolerate their beliefs. Anyway that is not going to be a problem for a male dwarf.
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