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Post by cmdrshep2183 on Jun 24, 2019 1:04:54 GMT
The first Mass Effect made quite a few references to political and socioeconomic issues of the 2000s.
For example you come across an xenophobic isolationist political party reminiscent of the American Tea Party.
You can also hear the protestors shout no blood for aliens. That is a mention for a popular anti Iraq war slogan called no blood for oil. There is also an inspection by an Alliance Admiral in ME1. He disparages the Normandy calling it can over designed piece of tin.
Some American politicians have criticized the F-22 and F-35 as overpriced and unneeded. McCain called the F-22 a "corroding hanger queen".
On the last visit to the Citadel you are asked by a negotiator to go over the legal limit of a legal drug.
There were numerous anti drug efforts in the 2000s.
Do these references add flavor to the universe? Do they make the universe and characters relatable? Or is it too heavy handed?
I don't know if I would want the problems of the 2010s to be referenced in a video game. Fake news, terrorism, economic inequality, mass shootings, and political demagogues.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 24, 2019 2:12:37 GMT
Didn't Le Guin say that good SF is always about the present?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 4:14:17 GMT
Pretty much any RPG I've played does this at least some of the time. It's pretty difficult to have a game based on making moral choices without referencing something of either historic or current issues.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2019 4:25:40 GMT
Many of those issues have existed throughout human history so they aren't so much contemporary as timeless unfortunately.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 24, 2019 12:33:40 GMT
Pretty much any RPG I've played does this at least some of the time. It's pretty difficult to have a game based on making moral choices without referencing something of either historic or current issues. Many of those issues have existed throughout human history so they aren't so much contemporary as timeless unfortunately. And those are some very valid economical and political subjects that can and should be examined, when trying to set up the universe in a certain context. It makes it believable, realistic and authentic. And it is okay to set up a premise that is contemporary to the political scene, as long as whoever is doing the writing, has a certain understanding of the politics of the time, can raise a valid question towards a certain aspect and, without being preachy, lead the player to draw their own conclusion. Which is something Avellone usually does in the games he writes for, raising some very nice and intriguing questions, regarding certain philosophical or sociopolitical aspects and, while offering some perspectives, leaving it to the player to reach their own conclusion.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 24, 2019 12:37:33 GMT
Sci-fi often repackages ideas which is fine. My only issue comes when down the line they try and squeeze their established world to reflect the political and socioeconomic issues of the day they want to comment on.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 24, 2019 13:04:08 GMT
Sci-fi often repackages ideas which is fine. My only issue comes when down the line they try and squeeze their established world to reflect the political and socioeconomic issues of the day they want to comment on. Definitely. If your political message is as shallow as "orange man bad", that is not a political message. At this point you've made up your mind about him, everything that needed to be said has already been said and anyone who isn't American, such as myself, won't find it interesting, prevalent or topical, let alone timeless. If that is what you're going to base your political intrigue on, in your game, prepare to get roasted.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 24, 2019 13:35:18 GMT
I think it's great, however in these extremely polarizing times of social politics I'm wary of what they do. Mass Effect 1 has a realistic depiction of skeptics and racism and actually deals with it as a subject. Mass Effect Andromeda had "No bigots allowed" and brushes the issue aside. I don't trust BioWare or EA to do good by this. They're too biased and I think they have a social sphere at the office that beats down any suggestion of anything that isn't all rosebuds and rainbows.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 14:57:39 GMT
I think it's great, however in these extremely polarizing times of social politics I'm wary of what they do. Mass Effect 1 has a realistic depiction of skeptics and racism and actually deals with it as a subject. Mass Effect Andromeda had "No bigots allowed" and brushes the issue aside. I don't trust BioWare or EA to do good by this. They're too biased and I think they have a social sphere at the office that beats down any suggestion of anything that isn't all rosebuds and rainbows. I disagree. Mass Effect 1 hand waved racism as well. Pressly makes a comment and then it boils down to a "I trust you" comment. Ashley made a couple of comments and, in the end, when Shepard talks with the Terra Firma party, he/she basically tells Ashley that it's not worth it and she just stands down... a point-blank hand wave if there ever was one. As I've said before, if trying to roleplay Shepard as a human supremacist, you have no option to not take any aliens aboard your ship. The excuse he/she can give Ashley that his/her hands are tied is false - Shepard is, by then, a spectre and is literally above the law. He/she could have simply thrown them off the ship at that point, gone back to the Citadel and expropriated some more Alliance for his/her team.... but the "racism" in ME1 is as much an illusion as it is in any other game in the ME series. In fact, ME:A goes a little deeper with it when we consider all the various quests involving the Roekaar in the game and the impact their racism has even within Jaal's own family... leading the Roekaar sister to shoot her own brother for merely running to greet Jaal, who had grown to become a "alien sympathizer."
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Post by themikefest on Jun 24, 2019 15:02:31 GMT
Maybe when Bioware remakes the trilogy, , Bioware might give Shepard the option not to have aliens on the ship. I would even add that option to ME2/3 as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 15:04:39 GMT
Maybe when Bioware remakes the trilogy, , Bioware might give Shepard the option not to have aliens on the ship. I would even add that option to ME2/3 as well. If they do remake the Trilogy, I doubt you'd see such an expansive change. I have said in the past though that, if they remake the Trilogy, I hope they change it enough so as to be essentially unrecognizable as the same game. I do think, if they remake the Trilogy, they would condense it into a single game. If they do that, I also think it will be the best part (i.e. the Suicide Mission) that will get axed since it is position currently in the middle of the game... unless they redraft the end of the Reaper battle to encompass something similar to the SM. I also think that we'd lose a large segment of the ME2 cast of characters... that were basically waived off in ME3 anyways.
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Post by urkibalurki on Jun 24, 2019 15:28:40 GMT
Usually pointless thread. Leave politics out of this forum, please.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2019 16:04:48 GMT
Being "topical" just means the game is gonna be dated in a few years.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 16:16:54 GMT
The first Mass Effect made quite a few references to political and socioeconomic issues of the 2000s. For example you come across an xenophobic isolationist political party reminiscent of the American Tea Party. Point of order on this one though - According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement ): Mass Effect was released in 2007, so I doubt very much that the Tea Party was the inspiration Bioware used for Terra Firma.
ETA: Which sort of illustrates lakus's point and why, possibly, Bioware keeps such references pretty vague overall.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 24, 2019 16:31:59 GMT
Being "topical" just means the game is gonna be dated in a few years. Exactly. Many people won't find it topical today even, let alone in the long run.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 24, 2019 18:30:15 GMT
I would have appreciated it if ME:A tackled more of those kinds of issues. They had a perfect opportunity to take up things like colonialism, xenophobia and the question of how far one can and has to go for survival. They barely touched those IMO and it was a missed opportunity.
So yes, in future MEs, I'd like to see difficult ethical topics challenged but of course only in a manner that fits into the story and the universe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 18:54:10 GMT
I would have appreciated it if ME:A tackled more of those kinds of issues. They had a perfect opportunity to take up things like colonialism, xenophobia and the question of how far one can and has to go for survival. They barely touched those IMO and it was a missed opportunity. So yes, in future MEs, I'd like to see difficult ethical topics challenged but of course only in a manner that fits into the story and the universe. I agree that it would have been nice if they have to added even more depth to the Roekaar's xenophobia than they did; but I still think that ME1's exploration of that issue was every bit as shallow as ME:A's. The difference people perceive is an illusion... not actual substance. ME1 blusters off some racist language and then hand waves it off... It goes nowhere really. ME:A isn't as "in your face" about saying we're dealing with xenophobia, but there is a little more substance... at least in exploring how it can affect (and tear apart) individual families. It's there as well in how the krogan never got their own ark (or even added to officially share an ark like the quarians, volus, and elcor). The krogan were just added to provide bits of security on the nexus itself. No ark even has a single krogan on it. On Aya, there are the messages to the Nexus you can collect, some of which say more about xenophobia than the short conversation with Terra Firma ever did. You can also have a discussion or two along similar veins with "concerned citizens" aboard the Nexus.
Colonialism is mentioned and explored a bit relative to the Kadara situation - where Sloane essentially took over what had been an Angaran settlement. If you opt to install the Collective, you wind up installing Keema Dargen as a "puppet" Angara government. There is also a bit explored on Elaaden where the player can opt to take over control of the water distribution or leave it in the hands of the Angaran (which is the basis of her "political" power on that planet To explore it on a broader, more in-depth scale would have required a larger Initiative contingent coming to the galaxy. There was so much resistance on the part of the fan base that centered around the size of the Initiative and "why we never heard about it" etc. that I think they were deterred from making the Initiative migration large enough to really discuss much about colonialism.
As for survival... perhaps if the game involved Ryder's little group being stranding on Habitat 7 for the entire duration of the game... but Mass Effect has never been a survival type of game anyways.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 24, 2019 19:46:49 GMT
Maybe when Bioware remakes the trilogy, , Bioware might give Shepard the option not to have aliens on the ship. I would even add that option to ME2/3 as well. Let's not kid ourselves. If BioWare remade Mass Effect they would make asari referred to as gender-fluid, non-binary, make Garrus a woman and make Udina an allegory for Donald Trump.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 24, 2019 19:50:41 GMT
I would have appreciated it if ME:A tackled more of those kinds of issues. They had a perfect opportunity to take up things like colonialism, xenophobia and the question of how far one can and has to go for survival. They barely touched those IMO and it was a missed opportunity. So yes, in future MEs, I'd like to see difficult ethical topics challenged but of course only in a manner that fits into the story and the universe. I agree that it would have been nice if they have to added even more depth to the Roekaar's xenophobia than they did; but I still think that ME1's exploration of that issue was every bit as shallow as ME:A's. The difference people perceive is an illusion... not actual substance. ME1 blusters off some racist language and then hand waves it off... It goes nowhere really. ME:A isn't as "in your face" about saying we're dealing with xenophobia, but there is a little more substance... at least in exploring how it can affect (and tear apart) individual families. It's there as well in how the krogan never got their own ark (or even added to officially share an ark like the quarians, volus, and elcor). The krogan were just added to provide bits of security on the nexus itself. No ark even has a single krogan on it. On Aya, there are the messages to the Nexus you can collect, some of which say more about xenophobia than the short conversation with Terra Firma ever did. You can also have a discussion or two along similar veins with "concerned citizens" aboard the Nexus.
Colonialism is mentioned and explored a bit relative to the Kadara situation - where Sloane essentially took over what had been an Angaran settlement. If you opt to install the Collective, you wind up installing Keema Dargen as a "puppet" Angara government. There is also a bit explored on Elaaden where the player can opt to take over control of the water distribution or leave it in the hands of the Angaran (which is the basis of her "political" power on that planet To explore it on a broader, more in-depth scale would have required a larger Initiative contingent coming to the galaxy. There was so much resistance on the part of the fan base that centered around the size of the Initiative and "why we never heard about it" etc. that I think they were deterred from making the Initiative migration large enough to really discuss much about colonialism.
As for survival... perhaps if the game involved Ryder's little group being stranding on Habitat 7 for the entire duration of the game... but Mass Effect has never been a survival type of game anyways.
I am not saying ME1 did any better, really but then, I didn't really expect it as much from the ME trilogy. The difference for me is that ME:A had the ideal setup for it, with the initiative coming into this situation in Helios. They are in dire need of resources, room to settle and just usable space to survive in. It would have been justifiable to ask how far Initiative members would have been willing to go under these circumstances, especially if the Angara hadn't been as accommodating as they were.
Yes, the Rowkaar are there but they are really only a minor side story and they are mainly viewed as dogmatic fanatics, who aren't really seen as having a reasonable argument, even by most of their own people. This and the fact that ME:A established very clear fronts immediately, with the rather cliche Kett being the absolute bad guys and the MW people being very much the absolute good guys, who even "repair" the cluster for the angara means that ME:A's story pushes those issues, which were right there inherent in the setup pretty far away and deals with them in more of a glancing way at best.
I wonder what Andromeda would have looked like if the Kett weren't even in the game but the major conflict would be with a race like the angara who make the perfectly reasonable argument that the MW Invaders should not settle on their worlds (you know, similar to how most MW races dealt with the quarian migrant fleet). If we ever get an Andromeda 2, I'd love it if they pivot the story more in that direction.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2019 19:51:26 GMT
Maybe when Bioware remakes the trilogy, , Bioware might give Shepard the option not to have aliens on the ship. I would even add that option to ME2/3 as well. Let's not kid ourselves. If BioWare remade Mass Effect they would make asari referred to as gender-fluid, non-binary, make Garrus a woman and make Udina an allegory for Donald Trump.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 24, 2019 20:00:05 GMT
Maybe when Bioware remakes the trilogy, , Bioware might give Shepard the option not to have aliens on the ship. I would even add that option to ME2/3 as well. Let's not kid ourselves. If BioWare remade Mass Effect they would make asari referred to as gender-fluid, non-binary, make Garrus a woman and make Udina an allegory for Donald Trump. Just get rid of the asari so the player doesn't have to worry about all that stuff. Garrus as a woman? Didn't Vetra have that role in MEA? Udina would be the only choice to be made the human councilor.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 21:01:14 GMT
I agree that it would have been nice if they have to added even more depth to the Roekaar's xenophobia than they did; but I still think that ME1's exploration of that issue was every bit as shallow as ME:A's. The difference people perceive is an illusion... not actual substance. ME1 blusters off some racist language and then hand waves it off... It goes nowhere really. ME:A isn't as "in your face" about saying we're dealing with xenophobia, but there is a little more substance... at least in exploring how it can affect (and tear apart) individual families. It's there as well in how the krogan never got their own ark (or even added to officially share an ark like the quarians, volus, and elcor). The krogan were just added to provide bits of security on the nexus itself. No ark even has a single krogan on it. On Aya, there are the messages to the Nexus you can collect, some of which say more about xenophobia than the short conversation with Terra Firma ever did. You can also have a discussion or two along similar veins with "concerned citizens" aboard the Nexus.
Colonialism is mentioned and explored a bit relative to the Kadara situation - where Sloane essentially took over what had been an Angaran settlement. If you opt to install the Collective, you wind up installing Keema Dargen as a "puppet" Angara government. There is also a bit explored on Elaaden where the player can opt to take over control of the water distribution or leave it in the hands of the Angaran (which is the basis of her "political" power on that planet To explore it on a broader, more in-depth scale would have required a larger Initiative contingent coming to the galaxy. There was so much resistance on the part of the fan base that centered around the size of the Initiative and "why we never heard about it" etc. that I think they were deterred from making the Initiative migration large enough to really discuss much about colonialism.
As for survival... perhaps if the game involved Ryder's little group being stranding on Habitat 7 for the entire duration of the game... but Mass Effect has never been a survival type of game anyways.
I am not saying ME1 did any better, really but then, I didn't really expect it as much from the ME trilogy. The difference for me is that ME:A had the ideal setup for it, with the initiative coming into this situation in Helios. They are in dire need of resources, room to settle and just usable space to survive in. It would have been justifiable to ask how far Initiative members would have been willing to go under these circumstances, especially if the Angara hadn't been as accommodating as they were.
Yes, the Rowkaar are there but they are really only a minor side story and they are mainly viewed as dogmatic fanatics, who aren't really seen as having a reasonable argument, even by most of their own people. This and the fact that ME:A established very clear fronts immediately, with the rather cliche Kett being the absolute bad guys and the MW people being very much the absolute good guys, who even "repair" the cluster for the angara means that ME:A's story pushes those issues, which were right there inherent in the setup pretty far away and deals with them in more of a glancing way at best.
I wonder what Andromeda would have looked like if the Kett weren't even in the game but the major conflict would be with a race like the angara who make the perfectly reasonable argument that the MW Invaders should not settle on their worlds (you know, similar to how most MW races dealt with the quarian migrant fleet). If we ever get an Andromeda 2, I'd love it if they pivot the story more in that direction.
I think there is ample foreshadowing in the narrative to deal with "colonialism" on a deeper level in the next game. As small as the AI was, they have sown the seeds of a more indepth look at colonial expansion on at least two planets and possibly all 4 of the Angaran worlds. The subtle ways it occurs - friends first and then dominate later. The Kett represent the overthrow, enslave and even assimilate aspects of "colonialism" - which is defined as " the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically." True, the Roekaar are portrayed as fanatics and, in the end, as discredited fanatics... but that doesn't mean that events couldn't occur in the next game that would cause large numbers of Angara to pick up their flag again. That pattern has repeated itself many times over in IRL history.
So, I would say ME:A is in the process of exploring it already from two distinctly different angles.
The other aspect you mention - well, the AI's survival is still at risk. Improved from the start of the game, but still a tenuous foothold at best and they haven't yet starting "making babies." There are hints that increasing the numbers of the alien individuals may not be something that goes over that well (ref: the Angaran grandmother who was so concerned about "how many of you will there be" a generation from now. The friendly relationship between the AI and the Angaran can certainly change in a heartbeat... and I can certainly see where the decision to install a puppet ruler on Kadara or have her continued to be dominated by Sloane might be a relevant decision by the player going forward, as well as who has control over the water on Elaaden... combined with how much the player "gave" to the Krogan and Morda. I think there's a possibility of a more meaningful setup here than a "glancing" one... but, of course, only time would have told whether or not Bioware, this time around, would actually follow up with anything meaningful... and we may never know unless they do a direct sequel to ME:A.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 24, 2019 21:05:16 GMT
@upagain Well, as you know, I am skeptical if we will ever see an Andromeda 2 (though I'd really like to see one). But if we do, I hope you are right and the continuation of the story will explore these conundrums in more detail.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 21:17:45 GMT
@upagain Well, as you know, I am skeptical if we will ever see an Andromeda 2 (though I'd really like to see one). But if we do, I hope you are right and the continuation of the story will explore these conundrums in more detail. I agree completely.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2019 21:23:35 GMT
I am not saying ME1 did any better, really but then, I didn't really expect it as much from the ME trilogy. The difference for me is that ME:A had the ideal setup for it, with the initiative coming into this situation in Helios. They are in dire need of resources, room to settle and just usable space to survive in. It would have been justifiable to ask how far Initiative members would have been willing to go under these circumstances, especially if the Angara hadn't been as accommodating as they were.
Yes, the Rowkaar are there but they are really only a minor side story and they are mainly viewed as dogmatic fanatics, who aren't really seen as having a reasonable argument, even by most of their own people. This and the fact that ME:A established very clear fronts immediately, with the rather cliche Kett being the absolute bad guys and the MW people being very much the absolute good guys, who even "repair" the cluster for the angara means that ME:A's story pushes those issues, which were right there inherent in the setup pretty far away and deals with them in more of a glancing way at best.
I wonder what Andromeda would have looked like if the Kett weren't even in the game but the major conflict would be with a race like the angara who make the perfectly reasonable argument that the MW Invaders should not settle on their worlds (you know, similar to how most MW races dealt with the quarian migrant fleet). If we ever get an Andromeda 2, I'd love it if they pivot the story more in that direction.
I think there is ample foreshadowing in the narrative to deal with "colonialism" on a deeper level in the next game. As small as the AI was, they have sown the seeds of a more indepth look at colonial expansion on at least two planets and possibly all 4 of the Angaran worlds. The subtle ways it occurs - friends first and then dominate later. The Kett represent the overthrow, enslave and even assimilate aspects of "colonialism" - which is defined as " the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically." True, the Roekaar are portrayed as fanatics and, in the end, as discredited fanatics... but that doesn't mean that events couldn't occur in the next game that would cause large numbers of Angara to pick up their flag again. That pattern has repeated itself many times over in IRL history.
So, I would say ME:A is in the process of exploring it already from two distinctly different angles.
The other aspect you mention - well, the AI's survival is still at risk. Improved from the start of the game, but still a tenuous foothold at best and they haven't yet starting "making babies." There are hints that increasing the numbers of the alien individuals may not be something that goes over that well (ref: the Angaran grandmother who was so concerned about "how many of you will there be" a generation from now. The friendly relationship between the AI and the Angaran can certainly change in a heartbeat... and I can certainly see where the decision to install a puppet ruler on Kadara or have her continued to be dominated by Sloane might be a relevant decision by the player going forward, as well as who has control over the water on Elaaden... combined with how much the player "gave" to the Krogan and Morda. I think there's a possibility of a more meaningful setup here than a "glancing" one... but, of course, only time would have told whether or not Bioware, this time around, would actually follow up with anything meaningful... and we may never know unless they do a direct sequel to ME:A. There's not gonna be much colonialsim as long as the AI can't defend their colonies with anything bigger than hand-held firearms.
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