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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 9:51:40 GMT
Asari already are basically. Garrus I doubt and Udina fine more reason to shoot him. There's a difference to me whether you describe Asari as "mono-gendered" or "non-binary". I won't say what it is, but I think there is a noteworthy difference.
Were they every truly represented as being "mono-gendered" though. They absolutely gave them a gender-biased appearance in ME1. I always felt the mono-gendered thing was merely lip-service... a way of soft selling the notion of an inter-species liaison to a mostly human male mainstream audience. They wanted to be able to insert a fully nude inter-species sex scene and, for whatever, reason, didn't want to make a completely different one between Femshep and a male-looking alien.
The idea of there being more "male oriented" Asari is actually introduced in ME2 in a subtle way with Liara's father. The voice is deeper, the manner is more brusquer (brushed off as being Krogan), and her "rack" is not near as prevalent as Benezia's (despite the lore that they "keep growing" as Asari age and Liara's father is as old as Benezia was).
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Aug 4, 2019 10:12:40 GMT
Were they every truly represented as being "mono-gendered" though. Yes, exactly. There's lots of girl-love for them too, and probably girl-gay love too, but truth be told there's mono-gendered as if humans were only female, and not a middle-of-the-road gender with both masculine and feminine traits. The matriarchs and commandoes have some masculinity but they also have sexy shapes and seem about as "sexy" amplified as anything does in the series, especailly in the third game for obvious reasons, but calling them "non-binary" is disingenuous and I'm only saying that because I read that in the NK Jemisin novel and I thought it was forced. Worse, I don't like the idea that once you have an established IP you start to reshape it just because times change.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 4, 2019 10:15:53 GMT
Asari already are basically. Garrus I doubt and Udina fine more reason to shoot him. There's a difference to me whether you describe Asari as "mono-gendered" or "non-binary". I won't say what it is, but I think there is a noteworthy difference.
When people say "non binary," I always think they are talking about computer code....
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Aug 4, 2019 10:56:17 GMT
There's a difference to me whether you describe Asari as "mono-gendered" or "non-binary". I won't say what it is, but I think there is a noteworthy difference.
When people say "non binary," I always think they are talking about computer code.... Yeah it's null.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 11:42:43 GMT
Were they every truly represented as being "mono-gendered" though. Yes, exactly. There's lots of girl-love for them too, and probably girl-gay love too, but truth be told there's mono-gendered as if humans were only female, and not a middle-of-the-road gender with both masculine and feminine traits. The matriarchs and commandoes have some masculinity but they also have sexy shapes and seem about as "sexy" amplified as anything does in the series, especailly in the third game for obvious reasons, but calling them "non-binary" is disingenuous and I'm only saying that because I read that in the NK Jemisin novel and I thought it was forced. Worse, I don't like the idea that once you have an established IP you start to reshape it just because times change. Isn't reshaping an IP with the times inevitable though... particularly when were talking over a total span of about 10 years. I'm sure if you analyze almost any television series that lasted that long, the subject matter and values being expressed in the series and even the language being used to express it changes over that time. It's just not a dramatic or noticeable because it occurs bit by bit rather than in a 1 episode jump 6 years later.
Also, there is an issue with the books being composed by different authors in that each author had their own different takes on the original games to start with... making breaks almost inevitable. I'm reading Valente's novel right now and, so far, finding her rather different portrayal of the elcor a little off-putting... right down to her rather extended descriptions of their feelings. In ME1, such interjections were mostly limited to a single word, but she tends to insert a fuller explanation, including uncharacteristic body movements. For example:
"Yorrick stamped his left foot against the spotless medbay floor. 'Explosive resentment: You do not understand....'"
or
"Defensively masking wounded self-esteem: 'Elcor Hamlet'"
So far, I'm just not really getting the same vibe from Valente's Elcor that I got from Caylen in ME1 or Harrot in ME2 or ME3.
I also think her portrayal of the volus is decidedly lacking in "breath sounds" being inserted into the dialogue... making them less volus-like to me.
Valente is an award-winning author, but I would say this particular book isn't, so far, looking to me to be up to that sort of standard.
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Post by burningcherry on Aug 4, 2019 12:09:02 GMT
Were they every truly represented as being "mono-gendered" though. Yes, exactly. There's lots of girl-love for them too, and probably girl-gay love too, but truth be told there's mono-gendered as if humans were only female, and not a middle-of-the-road gender with both masculine and feminine traits. The matriarchs and commandoes have some masculinity but they also have sexy shapes and seem about as "sexy" amplified as anything does in the series, especailly in the third game for obvious reasons, but calling them "non-binary" is disingenuous and I'm only saying that because I read that in the NK Jemisin novel and I thought it was forced. Worse, I don't like the idea that once you have an established IP you start to reshape it just because times change. Can't find it; you remember the chapter?
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 4, 2019 21:21:50 GMT
What would non-binary asari actually be like? Hair cues can't work, and a lack of makeup wouldn't go far. Clothing? Speech patterns?
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 4, 2019 22:14:54 GMT
There's a difference to me whether you describe Asari as "mono-gendered" or "non-binary". I won't say what it is, but I think there is a noteworthy difference.
Were they every truly represented as being "mono-gendered" though. They absolutely gave them a gender-biased appearance in ME1. I always felt the mono-gendered thing was merely lip-service... a way of soft selling the notion of an inter-species liaison to a mostly human male mainstream audience. They wanted to be able to insert a fully nude inter-species sex scene and, for whatever, reason, didn't want to make a completely different one between Femshep and a male-looking alien.
The idea of there being more "male oriented" Asari is actually introduced in ME2 in a subtle way with Liara's father. The voice is deeper, the manner is more brusquer (brushed off as being Krogan), and her "rack" is not near as prevalent as Benezia's (despite the lore that they "keep growing" as Asari age and Liara's father is as old as Benezia was).
True. It was more lip service than anything. Still I wouldn't want the asari changed really. I like them the way they are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 23:36:40 GMT
Were they every truly represented as being "mono-gendered" though. They absolutely gave them a gender-biased appearance in ME1. I always felt the mono-gendered thing was merely lip-service... a way of soft selling the notion of an inter-species liaison to a mostly human male mainstream audience. They wanted to be able to insert a fully nude inter-species sex scene and, for whatever, reason, didn't want to make a completely different one between Femshep and a male-looking alien.
The idea of there being more "male oriented" Asari is actually introduced in ME2 in a subtle way with Liara's father. The voice is deeper, the manner is more brusquer (brushed off as being Krogan), and her "rack" is not near as prevalent as Benezia's (despite the lore that they "keep growing" as Asari age and Liara's father is as old as Benezia was).
True. It was more lip service than anything. Still I wouldn't want the asari changed really. I like them the way they are. I like them the way they are as well, but if Bioware wants to change them and add ones that are more male-oriented I probably won't riot over it. I was OK when we were only seeing male Turians, Krogan and Salarians, but I haven't minded that they added female ones. I liked that there were both female and male Angara, but I didn't mind it when they changed Jaal to being bi. At my age, sexual orientation just really doesn't concern me that much any more.
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Post by burningcherry on Aug 5, 2019 1:49:51 GMT
I feel that this discussion is capable of getting too far before I re-read the book in full (couldn't find any .pdf to Ctrl+F...) so let me interject now. I remembered the "non-binary" part appearing only once, not explicitly calling the asari gender like that (since when are they "monogendered" btw.? I know that they were "asexual" in the past...), and indeed (chapter 1.): This may or may not refer to the asari, and even if yes (in what I don't believe because it seems more like a PC-loaded categorization of humans in this context), it makes a lot of sense: Cora needs to categorize people by their gender-induced behavior and the asari obviously fall into the wide category of "neither male nor female the way humans are". We even have this (chapter 2.): I read it as "those asari the game mentioned who want to be referred to with masculine pronouns exist but the race conforms to that single biological gender of theirs so overwhelmingly that you can assume it when in doubt, and that gender is close to the human concept of «female»". At the other hand, we have a literal "orange man bad" xDDDD (chapter 1.): I second your concerns Link"Guess"ski but you must have misremembered something, the book tones down what the game did if anything.
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Post by melbella on Aug 5, 2019 1:54:05 GMT
since when are they "monogendered" btw.? That's how Liara describes them in ME1. I would put her as more of an expert on the matter than Cora.
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Post by burningcherry on Aug 5, 2019 2:19:49 GMT
since when are they "monogendered" btw.? That's how Liara describes them in ME1. I would put her as more of an expert on the matter than Cora. K so it's since ME1 because Revelation's narrator stated that "the asari were an asexual species—the concept of gender didn’t really apply" (chapter 7.).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 2:32:34 GMT
That's how Liara describes them in ME1. I would put her as more of an expert on the matter than Cora. K so it's since ME1 because Revelation's narrator stated that "the asari were an asexual species—the concept of gender didn’t really apply" (chapter 7.). Asexual certainly doesn't apply though since it literally means having no sexual desires or feelings; in which case Liara would not have had such a crush on Shepard in ME1.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 5, 2019 11:23:59 GMT
Exactly this. Those issues are critical to good storytelling, but the best writers know to be neutral observers.
No they aren't. There is a time for subtly and a time to be blunt. The best storytellers aren't afraid to tell you bluntly that for example, that diversity is a good thing and that racism is wrong and Nazis are evil in the most blunt and forceful way they can and that some people who claim to be fans and watch any Twilight Zone and/or Star Trek for example TV show or movie can't seem to understand that concept, tells me that the people behind the current shows need to be more blunt and preachy and with Star Trek, in particular it's best episodes and series are the so called preachy ones. Subtly works only when people get the message at some point either when engaging with the media, thinking about it later, or talking about it with other fans, and sometimes it doesn't work at all when it's buried under so much other stuff or it some cases it's actually so subtle that it's practically not even there.
And I find the whole neutral observers thing (especially in the realm of news media) to be morally abhorrent because it lets people who should speak uncomfortable truths to power to abdicate their responsibility because it's "easier" than taking a stand. Ubisoft plays with a lot of political imagery in it's trailers than they scream: "That their games are not making a political statement" when they use settings, imagery, references, real world politicians and problems, and so on; in their games so they are making actually making a political statement they're just too chickenshit to say it or even admit that it's a political message.
I will say this for EA for all of their many faults (and they do have many FAULTS) when one of their games has a political message and they've IMHO have shown real courage that when one of their games takes a political statement they don't hide it or shy away from it they say head on "It's political statement. Get over it." Again that is real courage, not the cowardice of a company like Ubisoft.
In my opinion there is a time for politics and there is a time for entertainment. They occasionally overlap, naturally, but what I find most appalling in some current political trends is that they leave nothing untouched and nothing innocent. And if you answer "that's because nothing *is* innocent", then perhaps a reminder is in order where movements led by moral fundamentalists tended to end up.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 5, 2019 15:04:58 GMT
I've always agreed with that in theory, but in practice the bad consequences never seem to arrive.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 6, 2019 3:00:09 GMT
That's how Liara describes them in ME1. I would put her as more of an expert on the matter than Cora. K so it's since ME1 because Revelation's narrator stated that "the asari were an asexual species—the concept of gender didn’t really apply" (chapter 7.). Narrator wrong there.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 10, 2019 0:13:02 GMT
No they aren't. There is a time for subtly and a time to be blunt. The best storytellers aren't afraid to tell you bluntly that for example, that diversity is a good thing and that racism is wrong and Nazis are evil in the most blunt and forceful way they can and that some people who claim to be fans and watch any Twilight Zone and/or Star Trek for example TV show or movie can't seem to understand that concept, tells me that the people behind the current shows need to be more blunt and preachy and with Star Trek, in particular it's best episodes and series are the so called preachy ones. Subtly works only when people get the message at some point either when engaging with the media, thinking about it later, or talking about it with other fans, and sometimes it doesn't work at all when it's buried under so much other stuff or it some cases it's actually so subtle that it's practically not even there.
And I find the whole neutral observers thing (especially in the realm of news media) to be morally abhorrent because it lets people who should speak uncomfortable truths to power to abdicate their responsibility because it's "easier" than taking a stand. Ubisoft plays with a lot of political imagery in it's trailers than they scream: "That their games are not making a political statement" when they use settings, imagery, references, real world politicians and problems, and so on; in their games so they are making actually making a political statement they're just too chickenshit to say it or even admit that it's a political message.
I will say this for EA for all of their many faults (and they do have many FAULTS) when one of their games has a political message and they've IMHO have shown real courage that when one of their games takes a political statement they don't hide it or shy away from it they say head on "It's political statement. Get over it." Again that is real courage, not the cowardice of a company like Ubisoft.
In my opinion there is a time for politics and there is a time for entertainment. They occasionally overlap, naturally, but what I find most appalling in some current political trends is that they leave nothing untouched and nothing innocent. And if you answer "that's because nothing *is* innocent", then perhaps a reminder is in order where movements led by moral fundamentalists tended to end up.
In troubled times such as these it's the very moral duty and honor for those with a platform to stand up to fascists and your "innocence" is a lie because every major entertainment brand has always and still HAS POLITICAL POV, and you're either too young or stupid to notice.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 10, 2019 0:15:30 GMT
K so it's since ME1 because Revelation's narrator stated that "the asari were an asexual species—the concept of gender didn’t really apply" (chapter 7.). Narrator wrong there.
Liara: "Male and female have no real meaning for us."- ME1.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 10, 2019 0:24:32 GMT
There is a difference in Sex and gender.
Asari are a race of biological female(sex) that uses Pathnogenesis to bred with any species. Culturally, they don't have the same views as male/female dymanics as other species.
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Post by burningcherry on Aug 10, 2019 10:50:26 GMT
There is a difference in Sex and gender. Asari are a race of biological female(sex) that uses Pathnogenesis to bred with any species. Culturally, they don't have the same views as male/female dymanics as other species. Define "female".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 11:03:48 GMT
Liara: "Male and female have no real meaning for us."- ME1.
However, as I listed above, "asexual" means that they have no interest in sex. That is clearly not the case, as they are interested in having sex with every species in the galaxy. "Mono-gendered" means single-gendered, which really doesn't apply either since they do take on "father" and "mother" roles in raising their offspring; and Liara herself differentiates them (albeit rather reluctantly) in ME1 and they are further delineated based on behavior in ME2 (after we meet Liara's father and she even corrects Shepard when he/she uses the term "other mother" instead). There was always a discrepancy in how the Asari were said to be and what we were shown in game. I believe this was always intended by the story writers because Liara clearly said there were a lot of rumors and misconceptions about the Asari in the galaxy. That they continue to throw us curves in this area is, to me anyway, not surprising.
ETA: It is also somewhat inaccurate to say that "male and female" have no real meaning for them because in any Asari/non-Asari species pairing, the member of the non-asari species will never bear the children and will consistently be referred to as the "father" regardless of the actual gender of the non-asari involved. That is, a human female who identifies as being female could never bear children with an an Asari mate and would, therefore, never be referred to as the "mother" of those children by an Asari.
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Post by melbella on Aug 10, 2019 15:45:15 GMT
they do take on "father" and "mother" roles in raising their offspring; and Liara herself differentiates them (albeit rather reluctantly) in ME1 and they are further delineated based on behavior in ME2 (after we meet Liara's father and she even corrects Shepard when he/she uses the term "other mother" instead). This is probably something that happened only after the asari encountered other space-faring people with clearly distinguished male and female members (first being the salarians, I think?). It doesn't seem at all likely the asari would have developed the concept of "father" when throughout their prior history all parents were female. Like Aria tells us, "patriarch" doesn't exist in asari society, so, why would "father"?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 15:53:49 GMT
they do take on "father" and "mother" roles in raising their offspring; and Liara herself differentiates them (albeit rather reluctantly) in ME1 and they are further delineated based on behavior in ME2 (after we meet Liara's father and she even corrects Shepard when he/she uses the term "other mother" instead). This is probably something that happened only after the asari encountered other space-faring people with clearly distinguished male and female members (first being the salarians, I think?). It doesn't seem at all likely the asari would have developed the concept of "father" when throughout their prior history all parents were female. Like Aria tells us, "patriarch" doesn't exist in asari society, so, why would "father"? Possibly, but it really doesn't hold true after the asari have been in contact with and inter-breeding with other species for multiple generations. Patriarch may not yet have a meaning in Asari society, but "father" certainly does. That "male" and "female" have no conscious meaning to the Asari really just shows that they are being rather "color blind" to how that might be affecting their non-Asari partners. Jaal touches on this psychological aspect of the whole thing when he mentions that the children, although new beings, are always Asari and would, therefore, always identify as Asari. He then backs off because he senses that PeeBee is offended by the topic. The Asari do impose a "male" gendered identity on their non-Asari partners regardless of the original gender-identity of those partners. When they partner with another Asari, one of them assumes the "mother" role and the other assumes the 'father" role. Whether or not that is fluid is unknown. For example, we know that Aethyta assumed a "father" role with Benezia and a "mother" role with a hanar partner; but we don't know if she ever paired with another Asari and assumed a "mother" role.
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Post by melbella on Aug 10, 2019 16:04:06 GMT
Possibly, but it really doesn't hold true after the asari have been in contact with and inter-breeding with other species for multiple generations. Patriarch may not yet have a meaning in Asari society, but "father" certainly does. Of course it doesn't, because all asari are still female, even the "fathers." My point is, no asari parent who didn't give birth would have been called the "father" until that concept was introduced from other species with male members. It's just one more thing not completely thought through before introducing the concept in ME1. A society based on a single sex/gender is not going to have words for roles based on another sex/gender that doesn't even exist for them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 16:26:24 GMT
Possibly, but it really doesn't hold true after the asari have been in contact with and inter-breeding with other species for multiple generations. Patriarch may not yet have a meaning in Asari society, but "father" certainly does. Of course it doesn't, because all asari are still female, even the "fathers." My point is, no asari parent who didn't give birth would have been called the "father" until that concept was introduced from other species with male members. It's just one more thing not completely thought through before introducing the concept in ME1. A society based on a single sex/gender is not going to have words for roles based on another sex/gender that doesn't even exist for them. I'm not as casually convinced of that as you are. As I said, we don't yet know whether, in their society today, whether or not any, some or even an equal number of individual Asari tend to always assume the 'father" role in a union with another Asari and others tend to assume as "mother" role. Certainly, they aren't arbitrarily "female" in that they can both carry children and procreate children in another; but the possibility that some actually do consistently identify themselves with being either one or the other remains.
ME2 also briefly introduced the idea that their femininity is "in the individual eye of the beholder." In ME2, all salarians and turians we saw were male-gendered and all believed the Asari to look like their individual species and were attractive in ways they found attractive in their species. Now, I admit, I am "assuming" that the group at the bachelor party were all essentially "straight" when I'm making the reference to "femininity" in the previous sentence (but that's just for the lack of a more appropriate word in this context).
We also don't know if Aria would have saddled a female krogan with the title "Patriarch."
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