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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 1:37:11 GMT
If you believe there are no life forms on Thessia that reproduce sexually - or that the asari never would have observed, studied, figured any of it out - well, you're certainly entitled to that position.
Sigh. I don't think that. But, I also don't think asari would have adopted the human, etc. meaning of 'father' with all the connotations it brings with it into their own society before they encountered other sapient races with both males and females, and actually started producing children with males of other species.
Did anybody say they had done that? I haven't been following the thread too closely.
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Post by melbella on Aug 12, 2019 1:42:46 GMT
Did anybody say they had done that? I haven't been following the thread too closely. The implication seems to be they always used the term 'father' to describe the non-birth parent. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It just doesn't make any sense to me that they would, having no male parents in their society until finding them amongst other species.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 12, 2019 2:19:29 GMT
Liara: "Male and female have no real meaning for us."- ME1.
That's not asexual though. Asexual means no interest in sex.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 2:31:41 GMT
Did anybody say they had done that? I haven't been following the thread too closely. The implication seems to be they always used the term 'father' to describe the non-birth parent. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It just doesn't make any sense to me that they would, having no male parents in their society until finding them amongst other species. But "father" is an English word. They simply can't have used that word, and nobody's saying that they did. You seem to think that someone is arguing that the asari word which is translated as "father" is completely congruent in all aspects of meaning with the English word "father". ( Or whatever your localization is using in "father"'s place, for non-English-speakers.) Who has actually argued that?
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Post by melbella on Aug 12, 2019 3:24:11 GMT
The implication seems to be they always used the term 'father' to describe the non-birth parent. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It just doesn't make any sense to me that they would, having no male parents in their society until finding them amongst other species. But "father" is an English word. They simply can't have used that word, and nobody's saying that they did. You seem to think that someone is arguing that the asari word which is translated as "father" is completely congruent in all aspects of meaning with the English word "father". ( Or whatever your localization is using in "father"'s place, for non-English-speakers.) Who has actually argued that?
It's not the word but the concept, which is why I keep putting it in quotation marks. I'm not sure how else I can explain it.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 3:33:29 GMT
I get the concept. What I don't get is if anyone is actually arguing that the asari are using that concept. Exactly who is saying that?
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Post by thefool on Aug 12, 2019 8:52:27 GMT
But "father" is an English word. They simply can't have used that word, and nobody's saying that they did. You seem to think that someone is arguing that the asari word which is translated as "father" is completely congruent in all aspects of meaning with the English word "father". ( Or whatever your localization is using in "father"'s place, for non-English-speakers.) Who has actually argued that?
It's not the word but the concept, which is why I keep putting it in quotation marks. I'm not sure how else I can explain it.
To the asari "father, dad, papa, vater, ojciec, tama, aita, bapa, ubaba, pater, etc" is the parent that doesn't shoot the little blue baby out their azure at the end. "You mean you were her other mother, right?" shepard "No I didn't pop her out" Matriarch Aethyta
So mother = birth parent, father = non birth parent.
It's not that complex.
"Anthropocentric bag of dicks."
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 12, 2019 9:27:09 GMT
But "father" is an English word. They simply can't have used that word, and nobody's saying that they did. You seem to think that someone is arguing that the asari word which is translated as "father" is completely congruent in all aspects of meaning with the English word "father". ( Or whatever your localization is using in "father"'s place, for non-English-speakers.) Who has actually argued that?
It's not the word but the concept, which is why I keep putting it in quotation marks. I'm not sure how else I can explain it.
That's the point with aliens, no? That they have different concepts. They don't have "fathers" but the concept of "father" comes close to what they use for the parent that doesn't pop out the babies. So they use that as approximation and roll their eyes when someone takes it literally.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 12, 2019 14:43:14 GMT
Most fiction references current trends of the time it is written there is no doubt about that, but there is an appreciable difference between those narratives that do it well and those that do not.
Stories with a subtle approach to topics of the day. Tales that attempt to take a nuanced approach with the subject matter in question while taking a neutral/observational stance on things. Settings that don't allow the consistency of the crafted universe become jeopardized, or otherwise warped, just to fit with trending headlines of the day. These are the examples of a fictional work tackling social/political issues in a nuanced and mature fashion.
On the other hand, those stories that shoehorn in talking points with little to no regard to the established IP. Inserts that only serve as biased soapboxes for the author to preach to their audience about what their espoused beliefs are, and are willing to radically alter the fictional setting to fit those beliefs if need be are immature and frankly amateurish examples of writing prowess.
Unfortunately for BioWare they have been pulling from the later in their more recent titles.
It's incredibly lazy to look at the current headlines, hastily cram them into a given work, and then expect that to make said setting at all nuanced or relevant for anything beyond the immediate present.
Who is going to look at Batwoman's feminist bent as anything more than just social/political white noise five or ten years down the line? Is anyone going to remember it for being a quality superhero show?
Meanwhile, the original Star Trek series episode of "The Devil in the Dark" is faithful to the universe it's set in, while also having a theme that can still be relevant for audiences today.
Sure the production values are higher in Batwoman than the original Star Trek, but the quality of the writing is impacted trying to shoehorn in a political message above all else.
So in answer to the OP's question: I don't personally like it when BioWare references current social political topics in their works. Why? Because it's cringy, preachy, and detracts from the setting when it happens. Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins/Awakening were a bit more subtle about their take on things, but Andromeda and Inquisition are practically bringing the background narrative to a screeching halt so an after school special can be crammed in.
BioWare for ME 1 was all about creating a fresh new sci-fi IP that also paid homage to classic franchises like Star Trek and Babylon 5, whereas for Andromeda they seemed to really only care about #PrettyGoodBanging and #MakeJallBi.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 12, 2019 17:31:50 GMT
It's kinda silly to assume Asari would speak English in the first place.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 18:05:42 GMT
I thought we were supposed to assume that everybody's speaking their own languages into translators.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 18:07:49 GMT
Who is going to look at Batwoman's feminist bent as anything more than just social/political white noise five or ten years down the line? Is anyone going to remember it for being a quality superhero show? I'd have to see the actual show before placing a bet on that. You don't need to?
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 12, 2019 18:29:05 GMT
Who is going to look at Batwoman's feminist bent as anything more than just social/political white noise five or ten years down the line? Is anyone going to remember it for being a quality superhero show? I'd have to see the actual show before placing a bet on that. You don't need to? Not to see how dated it's making itself by embracing identity politics like that I don't. Meanwhile a 52 year old episode of Star Trek remains applicable to modern day audiences with it's themes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 18:40:53 GMT
But "father" is an English word. They simply can't have used that word, and nobody's saying that they did. You seem to think that someone is arguing that the asari word which is translated as "father" is completely congruent in all aspects of meaning with the English word "father". ( Or whatever your localization is using in "father"'s place, for non-English-speakers.) Who has actually argued that?
It's not the word but the concept, which is why I keep putting it in quotation marks. I'm not sure how else I can explain it.
I'm the one arguing the concept... They are a species that requires a "birth parent" and a "non-birth parent" to reproduce. This is the very basis of "sexual reproduction." It's not asexual... they NEED a second individual. Asexual reproduction takes place within a single individual. As a result, it also denotes that the asexual organism has no interest in sex or sexual relationships. The Asari reproduce sexually... biological fact as it is presented in the game. They are also not "mono-gendered" in that they can assume the role of being either "sex' when it comes to reproduction among themsevles. The relegate their non-Asari partners to being only one gender (in principle) because they ignore whatever gender identity that other parent has and always relegates them to the role of "father"... even to the point of correcting Shepard when he/she uses the term the "other mother." Their concept of gender is based on who "pops the child out" but, regardless, gender is not a meaningless concept for them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 12, 2019 19:17:17 GMT
Who is going to look at Batwoman's feminist bent as anything more than just social/political white noise five or ten years down the line? Is anyone going to remember it for being a quality superhero show? I'd have to see the actual show before placing a bet on that. You don't need to? I absolutely love Ruby Rose, goddamn Australians, I tell you, but the Batwoman trailers so far have been so full of cringe that I know it's going to be a hard watch. And I watch DC's Legends of Tomorrow. So Cringe might as well be my middle name.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 12, 2019 19:34:47 GMT
Who is going to look at Batwoman's feminist bent as anything more than just social/political white noise five or ten years down the line? Is anyone going to remember it for being a quality superhero show? I'd have to see the actual show before placing a bet on that. You don't need to?
Given that the book it's based on is a feminist pro-LGBT leftist book and that Batwoman is my favorite DC superhero because she also far more relatable to me, a straight white cis-genered man, than her over-rated first cousin Batman, with some of the most AWESOME trailers for the all of the Arrowverse shows (and I love all of those shows). So yeah I'm going to say it's going to be a damn good at the very least to a very great show at best.
Where you see cringe, I see greatness.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 20:22:23 GMT
I'd have to see the actual show before placing a bet on that. You don't need to? Not to see how dated it's making itself by embracing identity politics like that I don't. Meanwhile a 52 year old episode of Star Trek remains applicable to modern day audiences with it's themes. TOS isn't dated? Get real. Still watchable, but an obvious period piece now. As for Batwoman, I don't see any reason to bet against it. The Arrowverse shows have a solid track record, some after bad debuts (Legends,for instance.). And the sort of viewers who are really bothered by that trailer aren't all that relevant; the CW isn't interested in them because wokeness is part of their brand identity, and Berlanti and company seem to have outright contempt for them.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 12, 2019 20:37:02 GMT
Not to see how dated it's making itself by embracing identity politics like that I don't. Meanwhile a 52 year old episode of Star Trek remains applicable to modern day audiences with it's themes. TOS isn't dated? Get real. Still watchable, but an obvious period piece now. As for Batwoman, I don't see any reason to bet against it. The Arrowverse shows have a solid track record, some after bad debuts (Legends,for instance.). And the sort of viewers who are really bothered by that trailer aren't all that relevant; the CW isn't interested in them because wokeness is part of their brand identity, and Berlanti and company seem to have outright contempt for them. The episode I mentioned in my initial post isn't dated. I mean sure, if you're talking about production value and special effects compared to modern day technologies it is, but the writing in it is not. It's an episode about looking at alternative perspectives, about not jumping to conclusions and judging another based on initial assumptions; something still as relevant today as it was 52 years ago. Obviously there are other episodes in that series that are dated, such as analogues to the Cold War in several shows, but the series wasn't built on the notion of surfing trending social political topics. The Batwoman show, as indicated by the trailer, is all about wokeness and feminism, which very much dates the product its attached to once those hashtags are no longer trending on twitter.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 20:40:44 GMT
Where you see cringe, I see greatness. Could be both.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 20:51:40 GMT
The episode I mentioned in my initial post isn't dated. I mean sure, if you're talking about production value and special effects compared to modern day technologies it is, but the writing in it is not. It's an episode about looking at alternative perspectives, about not jumping to conclusions and judging another based on initial assumptions; something still as relevant today as it was 52 years ago. Obviously there are other episodes in that series that are dated, such as analogues to the Cold War in several shows, but the series wasn't built on the notion of surfing trending social political topics. So the series wasn't about contemporary issues, except for all the times that it was about contemporary issues? I just think that's a silly conclusion based on not much evidence. The ratio of ass-kicking to wokeness will be much higher than that. Put another way, the wokeness is to Batwoman what timey-wimey silliness is to Legends. As for whether people watch it 50 years from now, who the hell cares? You can't plan for that and shouldn't try.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 12, 2019 21:13:20 GMT
So the series wasn't about contemporary issues, except for all the times that it was about contemporary issues? He's making the argument that, while there were episodes which referenced contemporary issues, they weren't the focus of the show, neither the norm. I just think that's a silly conclusion based on not much evidence Batwoman talks about how she hates when a man steals a woman's achievements, then goes on to steal Batman's building, his suit, his identity, his gear and haven. I mean ... I watched an interview recently with Ruby about Kate and how her whole edgy attitude progressively mellows out, which is a good sign, otherwise you end up with an unlikable character. We'll see how it goes, I'm going to watch it and see for myself, but I won't be surprised if its terrible. As for whether people watch it 50 years from now, who the hell cares? The sequels, the companies that produce them, the fans, the actors and crew involved etc.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 13, 2019 3:01:52 GMT
One interesting thing I have noticed about BioWare, and their approach to social political issues, is that the more they try and comment on real world issues the less varied and nuanced their settings become. There is a clear line of correlation in this dichotomy as you look at their earlier games compared to later entries.
Take Mass Effect 1 compared to Mass Effect: Andromeda as an example.
For the initial title in a brand new science fiction IP ME 1 still managed to incorporate a whole slew of widely diverse alien species into the universe. Not only were there the humanoid ones like the Salarians, Turians, Asari, Quarians, Volus, and Batarians but also the non-human Thorian, Rachni, Hanar, Elcor, Geth and Reapers; many of which also had quite 'alien' perspectives on how they approached things rather than just being a human in a cheap rubber costume. Of the social political issues approached, ME 1 was rather limited in scope on that front.
Now flash forward to Andromeda and you will see the level of special interest group inserts and soapboxing increase, but at the same time the level of diversity, those 'alien' elements, began to decrease to the point where you have little to no alien elements at all.
Despite taking place over 2 million light years away from the previous trilogy the Hellius cluster felt more humanized than anywhere in the Milky Way. The flagship alien species added to the game, in the form of the Angara, did the impossible and were in fact more human than even the Asari. A brand new alien species never before encountered and within minutes of communicating they instantly can understand our idioms and finer points of our speech. Their culture is completely compatible and relatable with ours, the only real difference being that they are humans with blue/purple skin. Of course the trade off is that now we get to have LGTB representation scattered throughout the narrative. Instead of 'alien' aliens we get to have proper sexuality themed romance options. We get to hear about proper use of gender pronouns. And discover how the less than one percent explored Milky Way Galaxy was so intolerant to trans-genders that one had to literally flee to Andromeda to escape it.
BioWare's hashtags of #Prettygoodbanging and their later adoption of #makeJallBi made it pretty clear where their priorities lay. Worldbuiding and nuanced narratives weren't as important as diversity check-boxes and appealing to trending social political topics.
Personally, I would much rather have a sci-fi story that focuses on, well science fiction, rather than being a mirror for Twitter and Facebook headlines.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 13, 2019 5:09:39 GMT
One interesting thing I have noticed about BioWare, and their approach to social political issues is that the more they try and comment on real world issues the less varied and nuanced their settings become. There is a clear line of correlation in this dichotomy as you look at their earlier games compared to later entries. Take Mass Effect 1 compared to Mass Effect: Andromeda as an example. For the initial title in a brand new science fiction IP ME 1 still managed to incorporate a whole slew of widely diverse alien species into the universe. Not only were there the humanoid ones like the Salarians, Turians, Asari, Volus, and Batarians but also the non-human Thorian, Rachni, Hanar, Elcor, Geth and Reapers; many of which also had quite 'alien' perspectives on they approached things rather than just being a human in a cheap rubber costume. Of the social political issues approached, ME 1 was rather limited in scope on that front. Now flash forward to Andromeda and you will see the level of special interest group inserts and soapboxing increase, but at the same time the level of diversity, those 'alien' elements, began to decrease to the point where you have little to no alien elements at all. Despite taking place over 2 million light years away from the previous trilogy the Hellius cluster felt more humanized than anywhere in the Milky Way. The flagship alien species added to the game, in the form of the Angara, did the impossible and were in fact more human than even the Asari. A brand new alien species never before encountered and within minutes of communicating they instantly can understand our idioms and finer points of our speech. Their culture is completely compatible and relatable with ours, the only real difference being that they are humans with blue/purple skin. Of course the trade off is that now we get to have LGTB representation scattered throughout the narrative. Instead of 'alien' aliens we get to have proper sexuality themed romance options. We get to hear about proper use of gender pronouns. And discover how the less than one percent explored Milky Way Galaxy was so intolerant to trans-genders that one had to literally flee to Andromeda to escape it. BioWare's hashtags of #Prettygoodbanging and their later adoption of #makeJallBi made it pretty clear where their priorities lay. Worldbuiding and nuanced narratives weren't as important as diversity check-boxes and appealing to trending social political topics. Personally, I would much rather have a sci-fi story that focuses on, well science fiction, rather than being a mirror for Twitter and Facebook headlines. Ah, but going all PC is all "new and hip" these days. Screw that all that important story building right?* 😒 (*that was sarcasm BTW).
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 13, 2019 12:53:48 GMT
Where you see cringe, I see greatness. Could be both.
When used in the context of previews for entertainment, for me, "cringe" to me is just another way of saying "I'm a bigot".
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XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 13, 2019 13:06:27 GMT
One interesting thing I have noticed about BioWare, and their approach to social political issues, is that the more they try and comment on real world issues the less varied and nuanced their settings become. There is a clear line of correlation in this dichotomy as you look at their earlier games compared to later entries. Take Mass Effect 1 compared to Mass Effect: Andromeda as an example. For the initial title in a brand new science fiction IP ME 1 still managed to incorporate a whole slew of widely diverse alien species into the universe. Not only were there the humanoid ones like the Salarians, Turians, Asari, Quarians, Volus, and Batarians but also the non-human Thorian, Rachni, Hanar, Elcor, Geth and Reapers; many of which also had quite 'alien' perspectives on how they approached things rather than just being a human in a cheap rubber costume. Of the social political issues approached, ME 1 was rather limited in scope on that front. Now flash forward to Andromeda and you will see the level of special interest group inserts and soapboxing increase, but at the same time the level of diversity, those 'alien' elements, began to decrease to the point where you have little to no alien elements at all. Despite taking place over 2 million light years away from the previous trilogy the Hellius cluster felt more humanized than anywhere in the Milky Way. The flagship alien species added to the game, in the form of the Angara, did the impossible and were in fact more human than even the Asari. A brand new alien species never before encountered and within minutes of communicating they instantly can understand our idioms and finer points of our speech. Their culture is completely compatible and relatable with ours, the only real difference being that they are humans with blue/purple skin. Of course the trade off is that now we get to have LGTB representation scattered throughout the narrative. Instead of 'alien' aliens we get to have proper sexuality themed romance options. We get to hear about proper use of gender pronouns. And discover how the less than one percent explored Milky Way Galaxy was so intolerant to trans-genders that one had to literally flee to Andromeda to escape it. BioWare's hashtags of #Prettygoodbanging and their later adoption of #makeJallBi made it pretty clear where their priorities lay. Worldbuiding and nuanced narratives weren't as important as diversity check-boxes and appealing to trending social political topics. Personally, I would much rather have a sci-fi story that focuses on, well science fiction, rather than being a mirror for Twitter and Facebook headlines.
Then those same people would complain that "BioWare isn't listening to their fans" just like useless hardcore gamer trolls bitch about "That there is too much politics in video games". This is why BioWare and all major devs NEVER listen to their fan bases it's a waste of time and resouces. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Honestly people who hate politics in video games should NEVER buy a BioWare game because they've always had politics in their games and if you don't like it then take your business elsewhere.
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