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Post by melbella on Sept 28, 2019 16:59:26 GMT
It's been forever since I played this so I went back to it today, only to be reminded why I gave up on it. The timer. FFS, just let me play the damn game. Get rid of the timer and making me wait to proceed unless I "buy dawn" which, I don't even know what that means other than it costs real money? Which is apparently now broken anyway since all the links generate errors.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 28, 2019 19:48:18 GMT
Ok this isn't a theory or anything. Mostly just wishful thinking.
But me, as a fan who just-so-happened to skim over Nevarran lore and naming conventions, am going to be sorely disappointed if there isn't a Bram Stoker related easter egg for Nevarran lore one day (the closest we get is Buffy the Vampire Slayer references). Families over there have "van" in thier name over there and it is not unreasonable for there to be at least one vampire-equivalent somewhere in Nevarran history
...so a possible future easter egg for a "van Helsing" taking out a hunger abomination with a preference for blood isn't too much of a stretch, right? Right?
I'll still have it as a headcanon either way, but I just think it would be nice.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 28, 2019 20:48:11 GMT
Ok this isn't a theory or anything. Mostly just wishful thinking. But me, as a fan who just-so-happened to skim over Nevarran lore and naming conventions, am going to be sorely disappointed if there isn't a Bram Stoker related easter egg for Nevarran lore one day (the closest we get is Buffy the Vampire Slayer references). Families over there have "van" in thier name over there and it is not unreasonable for there to be at least one vampire-equivalent somewhere in Nevarran history ...so a possible future easter egg for a "van Helsing" taking out a hunger abomination with a preference for blood isn't too much of a stretch, right? Right? I'll still have it as a headcanon either way, but I just think it would be nice. Watch out, if Bioware feels especially trollish they may give us "van Gnisleh" I say so because John Epler was making fun from "Alucard" on his twitter account...
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 2, 2019 15:42:15 GMT
What do you guys think the "Sun" is? Since the Titans are revealed to be "The Earth" in elvhen legend, I believe that the "Sun" is also some entity not yet revealed, and a rather important one. Some things we learn in DAI: - Elgar'nan " lifted himself into the sky to wrestle" with the sun. (To me, this sounds like he took on a dragon form.) - Elgar'nan was prompted by The Sun's destruction of The Earth's creations. - Elgar'nan, from the same codex, also "threw down" the sun into a deep abyss and the world was covered in shadow and nothing could grow. ("Shadow" and "Decay" is language also associated with the blight/taint.) - Dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire. There's also this landmark in Emprise Du Loin that I'm not sure what to make of, but still wanted to put it here: "According to our legends, what remains of the sun's heat - left in the Earth when Elgar'nan threw the sun from the sky and buried it in the abyss - heats the hot springs in the Dales. The waters of the spring have healing qualities; we have always treated them as sacred. Then, of course, Orlesians moved in, scarring them with their garish statuary. But Fate is just. Last I heard, dragons had claimed the territory. Let's hope the beasts made a meal of fat nobles who couldn't escape in time." Is the Sun a spirit? The wrestling in the sky makes me think back to the dragon vs. dragon endgame fight with Cory- could it be a dragon? Whatever it is, I have a feeling that The Sun could relate to Red Lyrium. Remember the below artwork from DA2 depicting red-lyrium induced Meredith? Notice the red circle behind her - a sun instantly comes to mind. Solas, with his red eyes, also has the same circle behind him in the Dread Wolf Rises Teaser. Red Lyrium is also hot, just as the sun is hot. Let's also not forget that when Andruil hunted the Forgotten Ones in the Abyss, which is mentioned in the codex where Elgar'nan threw the sun down into the Abyss, she seemingly came back with armor made of Red Lyrium and brought out the blight. Edit: I suck at attaching images, here's the link to Meredith's art. I'm curious what you guys think?
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Post by yogsothoth on Oct 2, 2019 22:46:00 GMT
What do you guys think the "Sun" is? Since the Titans are revealed to be "The Earth" in elvhen legend, I believe that the "Sun" is also some entity not yet revealed, and a rather important one. I'm curious what you guys think? I'm still going with "The Sun" being the Great Dragons, whom Elgarnan killed in order to take their blood, assume physical form, and usurp them as ruler of the skies. The Old Gods/Archdemons are "The Sun" that was thrown into an abyss (the Deep Roads). The bit about The Sun destroying Earth's creations is either propaganda making Elgarnan look benevolent, or part of the relationship between the Great Dragons and Titans that the Evanuris (being spirits that don't understand the nuance of reality) misinterpreted.
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Post by annia on Oct 3, 2019 14:27:20 GMT
What do you guys think the "Sun" is? Since the Titans are revealed to be "The Earth" in elvhen legend, I believe that the "Sun" is also some entity not yet revealed, and a rather important one. I'm curious what you guys think? I'm still going with "The Sun" being the Great Dragons, whom Elgarnan killed in order to take their blood, assume physical form, and usurp them as ruler of the skies. The Old Gods/Archdemons are "The Sun" that was thrown into an abyss (the Deep Roads). The bit about The Sun destroying Earth's creations is either propaganda making Elgarnan look benevolent, or part of the relationship between the Great Dragons and Titans that the Evanuris (being spirits that don't understand the nuance of reality) misinterpreted. I'm hoping this is something we will find out more about in DA4, since right now we have just enough information to know that we don't know what is going on with that.
Dragons might be a possible answer, but the tale is most likely so confused that we don't really know what's up. Dragons aren't very sunlike, but the people telling the tale don't really know what the story is about either, so there might be a translation error or something confusing the matter. We know that this Sun is also mentioned in a familial context with Elgar'nan, but we don't really know who held power in Thedas before the Evanuris, so I don't really have a clue who the Sun is. A lot of people have scratched their heads over this one already.
To my knowledge the only known Sun reference is the chantry logo which has a sunburst on it. So the sun might be the Maker. Then again, the chantry teaches us that the Maker is the creator of the veil, which seems to hint that he might also be Solas's other secret identity. I'm personally not betting my money on Solas.
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Post by yogsothoth on Oct 4, 2019 0:47:08 GMT
I'm still going with "The Sun" being the Great Dragons, whom Elgarnan killed in order to take their blood, assume physical form, and usurp them as ruler of the skies. The Old Gods/Archdemons are "The Sun" that was thrown into an abyss (the Deep Roads). The bit about The Sun destroying Earth's creations is either propaganda making Elgarnan look benevolent, or part of the relationship between the Great Dragons and Titans that the Evanuris (being spirits that don't understand the nuance of reality) misinterpreted. Dragons might be a possible answer, but the tale is most likely so confused that we don't really know what's up. Dragons aren't very sunlike, but the people telling the tale don't really know what the story is about either, so there might be a translation error or something confusing the matter. We know that this Sun is also mentioned in a familial context with Elgar'nan, but we don't really know who held power in Thedas before the Evanuris, so I don't really have a clue who the Sun is. A lot of people have scratched their heads over this one already. For my idea, it's not about dragons being sun-like (though we don't know what they were like pre-Veil). It's more like Sun worshipping cultures in the real world; there's this big, powerful thing in the sky that brings daylight and makes crops grow, so better worship it and keep it happy. Regarding Elgar'nan, I'm imagining that spirits essentially "worshipped" the dragons, but Elgar'nan one day went "Why be the worshipper when I can be the worshipped?" Then he was the first of the spirits to figure out how to take down a dragon, take it's form, and eventually be seen as a god by turning himself into a dragon and gaining the worship of the other spirits. This taking of the Great Dragons blood as his own would be the "bloodline" that Elgar'nan used as his means of claiming being the child of The Sun. There could have been something the Elves had mentioning worshipping The Sun and Tevinter/other humans took this and started associating it with the Maker.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 7, 2019 18:40:40 GMT
I love your Interpretations Yogs, all of that seems very likely. Going to steer this conversation into another speculative topic- does anyone else find it peculiar that the wolf's eyes in Solas' Self Portrait borrows off the design of the Titan's eye in the Death of a Titan mural? The designs are fundamentally the same, save for the pupils. The Titan's eye is less detailed, but the architecture of the design is fully there. The wolf's eye is the same design but given more details to make it look realistic. I surely don't think it's a coincidence. Even the eyes on the wolf's hood seen in the mural of Solas removing Vallaslin has the same eye-shape design. Nick Thornborrow is definitely trying to tell us something, but what? From the same mural, it's already theorized that Solas' orb is made from a Titan's heart. There's definitely more to this, but I don't know what to make of the similarity.
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Post by yogsothoth on Oct 8, 2019 0:58:24 GMT
I love your Interpretations Yogs, all of that seems very likely. Thanks, I've probably spent too much time on how everything ties together. I'm going to be honest, I don't see what you see, but the wolf-hood eyes on the Vallaslin-removal mural have more similarity. I think the most important thing to point out is that the Titan's eye is the same shade of yellow as the other parts of the murals that indicate the Fade, spirits or magic instead of blue to indicate Lyrium. This is also clearly pre-Veil, and the eye seems to be open. The Descent also suggests that the presence of the Fade wakens the Titans. Presumably then, Solas, either by creating the Veil or in order to create the Veil, put the Titans to sleep. To extrapolate, the Titans could then be the origin for both the Fade and spirits. The Fade is also a place where separate minds interact, a trait shared with the Titans-Dwarves and the Archdemon-Darkspawn (the Archdemon does this through it's song which is similar to the Lyrium's song and the Blight is also likely tied to the Titans in some way, further tying all of this together. I already gave my thoughts on the relationship of the Titans and the Blight on the first page). I realized this pretty much entirely ignored your point, so I'll just leave it at that.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 8, 2019 7:21:02 GMT
I get the feeling that he told the inquisitor what he did to get them to do something. Like he's manipulating them by giving them particular, limited information so that they'll do something he needs for his plan to work. Cause he could of just told the inquisitor your welcome for revealing the qunari, confirmed or denied being fen harel, and then peaced out. No need to tell the inquisitor about the world burning in the raw chaos and this world must die for his etc. But he did tell them so he must want them to know, if whatever he anticipates the inquisitor doing in response to that isn't a part of the plan then telling them would be a pointless risk of that plan. Perhaps there's something he needs that has special protection from him or beings like him that he thinks the inquisitor can get to, and will because they're trying to stop him, thus giving him access/an easier target to take it from. Perhaps its more about what someone else will do when warned, and he needs the warning to come from someone trustworthy like the inquisitor for it to work. Perhaps its just so that any forces against him will ally under the inquisitors banner, someone he knows and can predict, ensuring his opposition comes from one direction as opposed to the far more difficult to defend against multiple directions with unknown leadership? I could see this being the case regardless of whether the Herald returns or we get a new pc. It's just if we play the herald then we'll presumably find out we're being manipulated and turn it around, whereas with a new pc the herald is probably being successfully manipulated/distracted/anticipated (or atleast wants it to appear that way) thus affording the new pc the opportunity to come at him sideways. I'm so glad I'm not the only one to think so. It seemed to me that he went into a lot of trouble to make sure that the inquisitor managed to find him on that particular day and I don't doubt for a second that being the trickster that he is, he had planned what he was going to say in advance. Revealing that he was going to destroy the world wouldn't benefit him unless he needed the inquisitor to try to stop him.
My head cannon is that Solas knows that taking down the veil might not cause nearly as large a devastation than he is letting us understand (hard to be certain since its never been done, though...), but he is telling the inquisitor that it will, because the inquisitor needs a creditable threat if (s)he is going to unite the world under his/her banner once more. Once Solas takes down the veil, he is letting out all sorts of nastiness from the Black City and without an army of the people wanting to stop him, they might be able to get a far too strong a foothold in the real world before they can be defeated. Just like in the Hobbit, the two armies are going to unite to fight a common enemy, which the blighted creatures in the black city certainly are.
The reason I think so is Sandal's Prophesy: One day the magic will come back, all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The Shadows will part and the sky will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see.
To me that seems to indicate that Solas is definitely going to manage to take down the veil, no question about it. I just don't think that the magic coming back will as devastating as most of the fanbase seems to think, because the ancestors of everyone alive in Thedas right now used to already live there before the veil. At least unless you believe that humans have some kind of otherworldly origins, or you believe that Thedas used to be the only continent that had magic pre-veil. Large majority of people today shouldn't be all that much more incompatible with magic than they were back then. The main reason why people have had so much trouble with spirits and demons after the veil went up is the fact that they have been desperate to get back to the real world. Once the veil is gone, they wont have the same motivation to possess people anymore.
Mages will become much more common and the trained mages will be in high demand in teaching them how not to destroy everything around them since mages will have much more power at their disposal as well. The veil going down will solve the mage problem, since mages will be so common that they will be impossible to imprison, as they will probably form the majority. We know that all Elvhen used to be mages and elves have been breeding with humans ever since they came into contact. I'd guess there are probably more humans who have elvhen blood than there are pure blooded humans these days. The humans might have had mages of their own as well.
So Solas is letting the inquisitor know his "plans" because the real plan is to get as many peopleas possible there to fight the Blight that will be released from the Black City and people aren't just going to show up because he asks nicely. He is simply taking advantage of the fact that his reputation is not the best right now, so people are definitely going to believe he is up to no good. I think the timing supports that as well: as soon as the inquisition started to lose its power because the people no longer saw the need for their excistence, since the threat that they had been formed to oppose was gone, Solas presented himself as a new one. The inquisitor had already proven that (s)he had what it takes to get people to rally behind him/her, but needed a new cause.
I actually agree with you too but then it would be hella ironic if Solas is basically just trading in one threat to another. But the key to it though is...again some people in the fandom...seem to assume that A. its going to be instantaneous like a Thanos Snap and B. that its going to kill everyone. But you are certainly right, or I believe you are...every race exisisted Pre Veil so its not going to kill us all off. Sure *something* will cause chaos, my bet is more the Evanuris then the Blight...and that Solas does not know how to stop them. Just the only problem with this theory is why didn't he just tell them that? Releasing the Blight or Releasing the Evanuris is still a pretty legitimate banner unifying threat.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 8, 2019 13:50:36 GMT
I'm going to be honest, I don't see what you see, but the wolf-hood eyes on the Vallaslin-removal mural have more similarity. I think the most important thing to point out is that the Titan's eye is the same shade of yellow as the other parts of the murals that indicate the Fade, spirits or magic instead of blue to indicate Lyrium. This is also clearly pre-Veil, and the eye seems to be open. The Descent also suggests that the presence of the Fade wakens the Titans. Basically, the eye shape is the same. The design and infrastructure is there. It's as if the Wolf's eyes are the completed drawing, while the Titan's eye is, say, the first step in the drawing. I guess think of coloring book - The Titan's eye is a blank design on a colorless page, and once drawn in, resembles the wolf's eyes. The elves in the Vallaslin mural are close, but their pupils are more round and less defined. This is what I was getting at: if one were to interpret that, it could mean that Solas purposed a Titan's "eye" (whatever the power the eye represents) for his own doing, and it became his own "eye", but the blueprints of the power still lingers. That's what I was trying to get at. Rather tinfoily, I know.
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Post by yogsothoth on Oct 9, 2019 0:44:11 GMT
I actually agree with you too but then it would be hella ironic if Solas is basically just trading in one threat to another. But the key to it though is...again some people in the fandom...seem to assume that A. its going to be instantaneous like a Thanos Snap and B. that its going to kill everyone. But you are certainly right, or I believe you are...every race exisisted Pre Veil so its not going to kill us all off. Sure *something* will cause chaos, my bet is more the Evanuris then the Blight...and that Solas does not know how to stop them. Just the only problem with this theory is why didn't he just tell them that? Releasing the Blight or Releasing the Evanuris is still a pretty legitimate banner unifying threat. Solas's entire character theme is his pride blinds him to how often wrong he is. I would be more surprised if his plan did end up killing most people. I'm going to be honest, I don't see what you see, but the wolf-hood eyes on the Vallaslin-removal mural have more similarity. I think the most important thing to point out is that the Titan's eye is the same shade of yellow as the other parts of the murals that indicate the Fade, spirits or magic instead of blue to indicate Lyrium. This is also clearly pre-Veil, and the eye seems to be open. The Descent also suggests that the presence of the Fade wakens the Titans. Basically, the eye shape is the same. The design and infrastructure is there. It's as if the Wolf's eyes are the completed drawing, while the Titan's eye is, say, the first step in the drawing. I guess think of coloring book - The Titan's eye is a blank design on a colorless page, and once drawn in, resembles the wolf's eyes. The elves in the Vallaslin mural are close, but their pupils are more round and less defined. This is what I was getting at: if one were to interpret that, it could mean that Solas purposed a Titan's "eye" (whatever the power the eye represents) for his own doing, and it became his own "eye", but the blueprints of the power still lingers. That's what I was trying to get at. Rather tinfoily, I know. The Titan's eye is much more rigid with straight lines, while Solas's wolf eyes are smooth and round. The pupils are also different; the Titans are more horizontal while Solas's are more vertical. While we're discussing eyes, the symbol in the middle (presumed to be Solas's Foci/Orb, since a circle with the same symbol is being held by Solas) is also eye-like itself, with the darker yellow being the sclera, the lighter yellow the iris, and the symbol being the pupil. There's also noticeable damage to the Titan's head. Tevinter calls them Somnaborium (Vessels of Dreams), and their purpose is to allow one to either open a Breach and enter the Fade, or close off the Fade by closing a Breach. Presumably, the Foci are, or are made from, Titan's eyes or at least some part of their head (brain being next most likely). I think all of this is just further evidence for my "Titans are the origin of the Fade" idea.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 11, 2019 19:29:45 GMT
I know I'm probably pretty late in realizing this but do you guys think that if it wasn't for Ancient Things TM (blight, Titans, Flemeth, Solas, etc.) radically changing the world as we know it in the future, that Thedas is approaching its own proverbial Age of Revolutions? Mages and templars alike were rebelling or at least pushing for change. And through both DA2 and DAI we see more and more evidence that the disenfranchised are starting to be more open to the idea of violence. I mean just look at all the forces Cory used and/or manipulated: - While most of the Venatori was made of Tevinter nationalists, we also know from word of god that a good portion of their members are (ex)slaves.
- It is reasonable to assume that a great deal of his initial red templars (i.e. those he recruited before the Mage-Templar war broke out) were recruited from templars discarded or expelled from the order.
- The Freemen of the Dales were basically nobles getting fed up with the fact that they were fighting at the whims of Kings and Queens. They basically wanted to claim the Dales "for Orlesians" instead of "for Gaspard/Celene".
I mean, manipulation and false promises aside, this shows that not only are several populations of people suffering/displeased with the current status quo but several are willing to fight against it. Even if it means joining a corrupted magister, apparently. And we haven't even gotten to the elves yet. Solas aside, we know Briala basically organized a shady elf network across Orlais which was itself preceded by set of elven unrest that resorted to the Divine herself wanting the monarchy to deal with it. And this upsurge of elven dissent isn't limited to Orlais either, the Ferelden city of Denerim has had to purge its alienage to "keep order" more and more in the last decade due to the strain of overpopulation. And I don't think it is a stretch to assume that all they would need is a charismatic leader to have them organizing into something more threatening. Change is coming for Thedas, is what I'm saying. If it isn't in the form of ancient things wrecking reality as we know it, then it will be by a set of unprecedented rebellions occurring across the map. Kind of ironic too seeing as no matter what any of our protagonists do we still more or less end up get a world state similar to how it was before.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 11, 2019 20:03:54 GMT
I know I'm probably pretty late in realizing this but do you guys think that if it wasn't for Ancient Things TM (blight, Titans, Flemeth, Solas, etc.) radically changing the world as we know it in the future, that Thedas is approaching its own proverbial Age of Revolutions?
It is probably the fact that there have been regular major threats over the last millennium that has prevented rebellion from occurring before. It is noticeable how drives for independence by nations from their empire building overlords mostly occurs between Blights, whilst Orlais and Tevinter have frequently used "saving" people from the Blight as an excuse for a bit of empire building. There is also nothing like a major external threat by strange fearsome creatures (the Qun) to bring people together and get behind their respective leaders.
The reason the mages didn't rebel sooner is probably down to the fact that the Circles were very often run by the offspring of the nobility or commoners who owed their position to noble patronage, so had a vested interest in keeping the status quo. It is noticeable that the two instigators of the rebellion (first Anders and then Fiona) were commoner mages with no position to maintain in the Circles as they had been recruited to the Grey Wardens and thus had a certain freedom of action.
Change is definitely coming; it has been hinted at enough in both DA2 and DAI but more of a world shaking change rather than simple rebellion. However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone encourages a slave rebellion in Tevinter in order to further their own ends, whether Solas or the Qun.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Oct 27, 2019 3:48:24 GMT
I expect we'll probably see more old god cults in Tevinter (ala Aurelian Titus's Cult and The Last Moon Lusacan cult). They might be antogonists in da4, or more amusingly, allies. An Old God cult could be another source of secret information to use against Solas or the Evanuris, they could have information erased as blashphemous or never publically known at all. A Razikale cult in particular could have some juicy secrets given she's the dragon of mystery.
Maybe we'll even get the chance to ally with Lusacan or Razikale? Maybe a choice about whether to risk freeing them in exchange for their help or not? I expect there's probably going to be another blight in a dragon age game eventually (probably a worse and longer one) so that'll need atleast one of the remaining old gods but gosh I'd love the chance to talk to the other.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Nov 5, 2019 0:05:07 GMT
Since the Danarius family traded for a red lyrium weapon in Deception, and even when Danarius is dead his family/apprentices presumably have access to his estate and the research he did when making fenris's marks - might we see red lyrium tattooed enemies in the future?
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Post by xerrai on Nov 5, 2019 20:05:02 GMT
Since the Danarius family traded for a red lyrium weapon in Deception, and even when Danarius is dead his family/apprentices presumably have access to his estate and the research he did when making fenris's marks - might we see red lyrium tattooed enemies in the future? Maybe. Though while I wouldn't be too sure if it would come in the form of tatoos, I can say I am confident that we will see red lyrium in the future. Seems like a too potent/powerful item for it not to show up in future games. Especially with the implication that it is impossible to contain at this point. Ever since Hawke brought up the idol in DA2, red lyrium has been more and more frequent and it pretty much overtook the Gallows. And in DAI we see red lyrium growths literally all over Thedas, from the Hinterlands all the way to Emprise Du Lion thanks in no small part due to Corypheus intentionally growing or encouraging its spread. Like, its literally impossible to completely contain at this point. Even if the Inquisition (presumably) did a decent job in curbing he spread, I find it hard to believe it won't crop up again in the future. Especially in Tevinter, where almost any power or academically inclined mage would be all but fascinated with the prospect of an odd-colored lyrium. It's going to be hard to have something that potent and not want to study/experiment it.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2019 17:38:30 GMT
And those pro-Evanuris records state very clearly that slaves were a thing in Elvenhan, with not even an attempt to call them something else. Did they actually call them slaves? I thought the records simply recorded large numbers of elves working in concert to achieve major aims under the direction of other elves. We can interpret this as slaves and overlords but the records do not state it as such. Hmmm, didn't you click the link I've provided? It's still there in the nested quote you know... "The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth.
"Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!"So yes - it's right there, among pro-Evanuris records. And it wasn't even something that has been hidden by ambiguous language. The fact that elves think that humans are responsible for the loss of their immortality only strengthens my case - because we now know how inaccurate that assumption is. Also - what records? There are no records of note, aside from ones we uncover that are from actual period. The rest are legends, myths and at best fragmented pieces we can't yet assess the accuracy of, because of the amount of knowledge we still lack. I may be wrong, but it seems like you're arguing this as if I've postulated that NOTHING in their folklore is accurate, which isn't my stance at all What I'm postulating is they aren't as accurate as you seem to think they are. The fact that they vaguely remember they were magical and immortal doesn't change the fact that supposedly most accurate memories of ancient past still don't remember the fact that the world was Veilles, how the Veil has changed it or conflicts within Elvenhan whatsoever. Now, I am of a mind that something or someone may have *helped* everyone to forget about many things (or such was one of effects of the Veil in the long run), aside from systemic destruction of historical and cultural heritage inflicted on elves by humans, but that only further strengthens my points that NONE of the records we have are accurate to a point that they can reliably tell us what exactly happened. We're actively encouraged to dig through the entirety of lore to get even partial picture. And we know that Elvenhan was mired in conflict - that Eluvians were shut across the Empire. That - according to Abelas - Elvenhan ultimately succumbed to internal conflict. And those wolves and graffiti showing fighting elves almost everywhere we went isn't just there so devs can troll us with Solas's identity, you know. They have in-story purpose as well. His rebellion may have began small, as suggested by moniker they've given to Solas that was supposed to mock him - but ultimately it was so wide-spread that Evanuris warned/threatened their people not to listen to him in a pretty straightforward propaganda pamphlets. Oh, I agree that history is always colored by whoever has the upper hand - and you know who had the upper hand over elves in past millenia? Humans. Even Dorian tells us that Tevenes would have hard time reconciling with the fact that who they have defeated weren't elves at their prime, but, to quote Abelas, it was 'the "war" or carrion feasting upon a corpse'. To admit otherwise, ironically, does away with some founding myths for both Tevenes and remaining elves whom they've subjugated. So your argument would have more merit... if we didn't know what happened to elvhen history after humans came. What elves have are fragments of fragments from which they cobbled together a pretty positive picture of the past to cling to. Elves were treated awfully for most of modern history - you think they wouldn't want a picture of their history to tell themselves they were great once, while overlooking things like internal conflicts or existence of slavery? Dunno, this may be a difference in cultural perspective IRL. I know from personal experience how piecing history after its decimation looks for people who have been subjugated for several centuries - interestingly because I lived through the period of dismantling it and seeing how much of it was... far from accurate. Bad things are mostly pushed out. Good (or 'good') things are what remains. People cling to them during tough times, yearning for golden age of yesteryear, regardless how accurate that picture actually is. That's just how it is. That's not to say that all of what modern elves remember is false. It's just that the whole idea of 'version of history being transmitted' because pro-Evanuris populace vastly outnumber those who were against them seems bizarre to me, given what we know that has happened to elves and reality of what we don't know yet. ...Okay, I CLEARLY speak of more than the details of his plan to entrap Evanuris/Forbidden Ones, so why are you making it seem like I only meant that? His motives were 100% misinterpreted, because the myths seem to have completely forgotten the context or in fact the bigger conflict which ultimately led to Evanuris/Forbidden Ones being trapped. His followers may not have known all his motives (we know from rune in Deep Roads that there was something Evanuris were doing that he was trying to prevent), but the overt call for his rebellion was about getting rid of slavery and revolt against false god-kings. We know because of direct records from his Sanctuary, among other things. The myths have virtually none of that. They make it seem like Fen'Harel acted either at random, from evil nature or 'for the LULz'. I've already very clearly stated that I don't think that their stories aren't WHOLLY inaccurate. What I disagree here is with the amount of accuracy you think there is. Like, let's be fair - what was lost weren't "some bits". Like many other factions, they only HAVE "some bits", even if they have more of those bits than others. I mean, the Dalish/elves have some stuff that is clearly more historically accurate than, say, what the Chantry or Imperium claims - we know that Evanuris 100% existed and that elves were a nation that was mightier than what most modern Thedosians could have imagined. But to say that a lot of it is accurate... I simply don't share your sentiment here, but maybe because I have a different standard for accuracy. Honestly, if Dalish stuff was so accurate many revelations across Inquisition and especially Trespasser wouldn't be as impactful as they were.
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Post by melbella on Nov 24, 2019 17:54:56 GMT
Copying my reply from the twit thread: Hmmm, didn't you click the link I've provided? It's still there in the nested quote you know... "The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth.That isn't an internal reference though. Meaning, not a description written by an ancient elf. It is the game devs' description of what the book contains. And they call them servants in the first sentence, so it's not even a consistent reference.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2019 18:24:54 GMT
Hmmm, didn't you click the link I've provided? It's still there in the nested quote you know... "The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth.That isn't an internal reference though. Meaning, not a description written by an ancient elf. It is the game devs' description of what the book contains. And they call them servants in the first sentence, so it's not even a consistent reference. This IS an internal reference, which is also recorded by an ancient elf/spirit? - as it's a codex directly from Shattered Library. It's not a "game devs description" You are confusing the way it is written with typical dev notes, but this is how most codices in Vir Dirtara are written. You can check and compare them it on relevant wikia page. The codex above and all the codices we find in Vir Dirtara are all internal references. They are written this way to make it apparent that records in Vir Dirtara aren't typical books, but instead are more like a direct memory given the shape of a book and thus convey more than just written word (thanks to that they're also decipherable by people who don't necessarily know how to read ancient Elvhen language, I'd like to note!). Many runes containing memories or information that we encounter across games are written the same way, so I admit to being surprised that this is apparently confusing to some, as it's not anything new - and definitely not external to game world (which would also be weird from DA devs side, because they virtually never break the 4th wall like that in in-story documents). Also - TOILING from dictionary: noun hard and continuous work; exhausting labor or effort. a laborious task. Archaic. battle; strife; struggle.
In other words: toiling servant = slave. At this point I can't help but to be amused with attempts to make it seem that this isn't what it is. Like, even if someone didn't use the word TOILING before 'servant', if someone uses the word 'slave' in the text, it's clear what's this about. 'Slave' is too strong of a word and concept to leave any ambiguity in this regard - never mind that it describes a scene where thousands of people just had work extremely hard to build a monument to entity declaring himself as god, which is a big can of worms in itself.
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Post by melbella on Nov 24, 2019 18:42:19 GMT
Also - TOILING from dictionary: noun hard and continuous work; exhausting labor or effort. a laborious task. Archaic. battle; strife; struggle.
In other words: toiling servant = slave. Servants who work hard are now automatically slaves?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 24, 2019 18:49:21 GMT
They are written this way to make it apparent that records in Vir Dirtara aren't typical books, but instead are more like a direct memory given the shape of a book and thus convey more than just written word. The thing is if they are written as the specific memory of an elf of that time then it begs the question, who? Was it one of the priesthood of Elgar'nan, or one of the servants or even possibly that of Fen'Harel himself? After all, he was at one time part of the status quo as the side-kick of Mythal so might well have been watching this monument being erected and was already questioning the system without having actively rebelled at that time. If it was the memory of Fen'Harel then it still isn't an independent confirmation that these workers were unwilling slaves rather than devoted worshipers erecting a statue to their patron god.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2019 18:51:39 GMT
Also - TOILING from dictionary: noun hard and continuous work; exhausting labor or effort. a laborious task. Archaic. battle; strife; struggle.
In other words: toiling servant = slave. Servants who work hard are now automatically slaves? If you use word 'slave' in the very same text as synonymous word to describe the very same group of people, then yes - it's crystal clear what 'servants working hard' is
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2019 19:16:17 GMT
They are written this way to make it apparent that records in Vir Dirtara aren't typical books, but instead are more like a direct memory given the shape of a book and thus convey more than just written word. The thing is if they are written as the specific memory of an elf of that time then it begs the question, who? Was it one of the priesthood of Elgar'nan, or one of the servants or even possibly that of Fen'Harel himself? After all, he was at one time part of the status quo as the side-kick of Mythal so might well have been watching this monument being erected and was already questioning the system without having actively rebelled at that time. If it was the memory of Fen'Harel then it still isn't an independent confirmation that these workers were unwilling slaves rather than devoted worshipers erecting a statue to their patron god. Well, I'll tell you who they weren't - they weren't unfriendly to Evanuris. We don't find virtually any ancient texts in Vir Dirtara that aren't either neutral (as in, just not mentioning them) or very favorable to Evanuris (when they do mention them). And the scraps of text we find about Fen'Harel are propaganda against him. This was an official Imperial library and has stayed as such till the very end - we know this (aside from records), because the elves trapped there by the Veil weren't friends of Fen'Harel and lamented the disappearance of their gods. The chance of there being an authoritarian theocracy that leaves materials critical of them in their official repository of Imperial records is close to that of snowflakes' in hell. Also - you realize that your (unlikely, IMO) theory that this was a record of Fen'Harel's memories who was still part of the system but questioning it already only supports the idea that these were very much slaves? I mean, unless you want to completely question if not change Solas's motivations for the rebellion or his feelings about slavery? Who do you think people who rebelled against Evanuris - disgruntled union workers or something? Did they try and overturn the system because they weren't paid 20 gold coins an hour? Like... I admit to growing a tad uncomfortable here. I mean, aside from obvious attempts to try and wiggle out of idea that there was institutionalized slavery in Elvenhan, I do find it bizarre that you don't see that Evanuris being 'patron gods' requiring worship or toiling to create ginormous statues for them (and clearly sanctioning it, given the existence of a record in the Library) is any any way better.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 24, 2019 19:48:45 GMT
Also - TOILING from dictionary: noun hard and continuous work; exhausting labor or effort. a laborious task. Archaic. battle; strife; struggle.
In other words: toiling servant = slave. Servants who work hard are now automatically slaves? Well I mean, if we take the translation as literal, no. But as with all other things elvhen, it likely depends on the context. Meaning and technical definitions just aren't as applicable to the elvhen language as other languages are. This is even noted by modern scholars who note that "Elven is often a game of intents, not direct mapping of phonetic meaning. That means it's a mess". We actually see this exemplified to an extent in the series itself. Particularly in the case of terming 'techniques of the arcane warrior'. The formal "Dirth'ena Enasalin" can used to describe the techniques just like "Ghilan'him Banal'vhen" can and still refer to the same thing. Also note that neither elvhen phrases actually has something in them directly referring to arcane warriors clearly. Or any warriors really. The closes they get in terms of subject matter is "the path" or "knowledge". And those can be just as applicable to philosophy or tactics than anything else. So the elves terming slaves as "toiling servants" sometimes actually checks out as probable. Not saying this was the actual case, but it is something to consider. But I will admit that I also thought that codex was about slaves. But I will also admit that I never made up my mind about who exactly was making the Elgar'nan statue. Was it elves? But are we talking marked elves who were legit slaves or marked elves who seem closer to willing servitude like Abelas was to Mythal? Or, if the title is any hint, is this "Sign of Victory" describing the toiling of 'servants' acquired after a major battle or war? Like thier war with the Titans? If so, this memory could possibly be describing the toiling of dwarves who the elves likely viewed as below them. For all I know the 'toiling servants' who built the statue are spirits of purpose or loyalty who were told by Elgar'nan that thier purpose was to build a statue. I love these memories/codex entries. I really do. But the are insufferably vague at times.
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