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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2019 20:26:54 GMT
Servants who work hard are now automatically slaves? Well I mean, if we take the translation as literal, no. But as with all other things elvhen, it likely depends on the context. Meaning and technical definitions just aren't as applicable to the elvhen language as other languages are. This is even noted by modern scholars who note that "Elven is often a game of intents, not direct mapping of phonetic meaning. That means it's a mess". We actually see this exemplified to an extent in the series itself. Particularly in the case of terming 'techniques of the arcane warrior'. The formal "Dirth'ena Enasalin" can used to describe the techniques just like "Ghilan'him Banal'vhen" can and still refer to the same thing. Also note that neither elvhen phrases actually has something in them directly referring to arcane warriors clearly. Or any warriors really. The closes they get in terms of subject matter is "the path" or "knowledge". And those can be just as applicable to philosophy or tactics than anything else. So the elves terming slaves as "toiling servants" sometimes actually checks out as probable. Not saying this was the actual case, but it is something to consider. But I will admit that I also thought that codex was about slaves. But I will also admit that I never made up my mind about who exactly was making the Elgar'nan statue. Was it elves? But are we talking marked elves who were legit slaves or marked elves who seem closer to willing servitude like Abelas was to Mythal? Or, if the title is any hint, is this "Sign of Victory" describing the toiling of 'servants' acquired after a major battle or war? Like thier war with the Titans? If so, this memory could possibly be describing the toiling of dwarves who the elves likely viewed as below them. For all I know the 'toiling servants' who built the statue are spirits of purpose or loyalty who were told by Elgar'nan that thier purpose was to build a statue. I love these memories/codex entries. I really do. But the are insufferably vague at times. The thing about these books-memories is that they are conveying things on more than just written word levels - otherwise, how could we explain suddenly becoming so well-versed in ancient Elvhen? The Inquisitor and their people have clearly picked up some of the language over the years, but usually if we're faced with straightforward written records (ToM puzzles, Solasan, etc) then it's indeed clear that there's enough ambiguity to make the full reading difficult. Not so with these books-memories. These books directly contextualize whatever words there are (it could also explain why plain words are so vague - because original words came with other magical elements that may have been stripped or suppressed by time or the Veil) and go as far as recording stuff like sights, sounds, smells and sentiments. The feelings especially are noted in descriptions we are presented - we know that whoever has recorded the memory of Homecoming recorded serene contentment, while whoever has recorded A Flowering Imago was clearly sad, if not distressed. Not so with other records, many of which (like Raising The Sonallium or Exile of the Forbidden Ones or Duel of a Hundred Years) seemed like something recorded by official scribes for the sake of posterity. They read a lot more like news posts or historical notes - as it happens Signs Of Victory (note the title...) reads as official record as well. And whoever has recorded that has clearly conveyed 'slave' upon whoever reads...? ...experiences? these books-memories. I'm all for wondering who these slaves may have been. Or, for example, when willing servitude may have had devolved into slavery. I do personally believe that Evanuris may have been mostly well-meaning and things may have started swell and noble and all only for things to gradually turn to be... less so. I mean... it's not like Inquisition wasn't beating us over the head with theme of encroaching corruption of institutions/factions and it having a loooong tradition in Thedas OVERARCHING THEMES AND PARALLELS - who doesn't love them, ey? ...But I don't think there's enough vagueness in what's already available to us to try and make slavery/extent of servitude (at least in late) Elvenhan a thing of ambiguity.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 24, 2019 21:22:46 GMT
The thing about these books-memories is that they are conveying things on more than just written word levels - otherwise, how could we explain suddenly becoming so well-versed in ancient Elvhen? The Inquisitor and their people have clearly picked up some of the language over the years, but usually if we're faced with straightforward written records (ToM puzzles, Solasan, etc) t hen it's indeed clear that there's enough ambiguity to make the full reading difficult.
Not so with these books-memories. These books directly contextualize whatever words there are (it could also explain why plain words are so vague - because original words came with other magical elements that may have been stripped or suppressed by time or the Veil) and go as far as recording stuff like sights, sounds, smells and sentiments. The feelings especially are noted in descriptions we are presented [...] ... Is it clear though? I know at this point my arguments are seemingly going that obstinate "well nothing is objective" route but hear me out. These book memories may be memories. That is true and I accept that true. Thus I have treated the codex entries in the Vir-Dirthara as the best first hand accounts of ancient Arlathan we currently have on record. especially since, as many have said, these are memories and not just text on a physical writing medium. But does that neccesarily mean these memory-books are infallible or even complete when they convey thier content? After all, if these memory books are indeed memories, then shouldn't they be conveying more? What do the slaves look like? Was the sun warming thier skin? A memory should have these things, and if these memories were made in real time like you would expect, then these books should be expressing far clearer and detailed picture than we currently get. I can see a few possibilities for why this is: a) The writer elf in question somehow wasn't paying attention these details, and were thus omitted from the memory because he didn't really memorize the experience in totality. b] The writer elf intentionally left out several important details when he recorded the memory c) The memory-books have been damaged or deteriorated. Likely because of the veil. d) The memory has been tampered with. Either by the libraries natural processes, or visiting inhabitants like spirits or the occasional visiting mortal. e) The reader is lacking 'something' to really experience the memory in its fullness. I think the last three options are probable given what we see of the library itself. For instance we see that a unwritten future chapter of hard in high town can be found in the library. Meaning that the library is somehow generating (and possibly revising) content based on non-ancient viewpoints. We also know that while we see the memory books as books, Sera sees something completely different, meaning that what is perceived can change based off of individual perceptions. So odds are the library partially operates off of fade rules to an extent when it comes to storing and experiencing memories...and that is something that you yourself note can potentially hold memories that are either flat out fabricated or shouldn't be taken at face value. Naturally this deterioration/tampering doesn't happen as often in the shattered library as it does in the actual fade, but it still likely happens. And I haven't even gotten into the possibility of 'emotional/experiential translation' yet and how because modern Thedosians cannot comprehend the world without a veil that may mean the Inquisitor is literally experiencing something thier brain cannot comprehend and thus thier mind either omits or changes things in order to have the memory make sense. As such, I think codex entries could potentially have a lot of ambiguity in them that should be taken into consideration. Or at the very least, we shouldn't take each codex entry in the library as an 'objective truth from the perspective of the writer' 100% of time.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 24, 2019 21:35:07 GMT
Like... I admit to growing a tad uncomfortable here. I mean, aside from obvious attempts to try and wiggle out of idea that there was institutionalized slavery in Elvenhan, I do find it bizarre that you don't see that Evanuris being 'patron gods' requiring worship or toiling to create ginormous statues for them (and clearly sanctioning it, given the existence of a record in the Library) is any any way better. Or, if the title is any hint, is this "Sign of Victory" describing the toiling of 'servants' acquired after a major battle or war? Like thier war with the Titans? If so, this memory could possibly be describing the toiling of dwarves who the elves likely viewed as below them. I must admit that it hadn't occurred to me before that these toiling servants/slaves were anything other than elves but actually it would make sense they were dwarves. Solas says the rise to godhood began with a war in which the Evanuris were leaders (as the meaning of their name indicates). So the construction of the statue could well be marking the victory of Elgar'nan and Mythal against the Titans and the beginning of their rise to godhood. The elves regarded the dwarves as lesser beings which served the Titans: "Their workers scurry, witless, soulless." So it is in keeping with this that they were described in the way they were and engaged in manual labour to transform the earth/rock that was associated with the defeated enemy, unlike the memory of the construction of the Grand Sollanium which mentions thousands of elves engaged in a magical ritual to transform raw essence of the Fade into a beautiful construct. I wasn't trying to defend the institution of slavery in Elvhenan but how the people of that time viewed their society and how that effected what was transmitted to later generations. So far as vallaslin are concerned I think the pro-Evanuris faction genuinely viewed them as signs of devotion, not markings that denoted ownership. As far back as DAO the stories of Arlathan hinted at a stratified society since Gisharel says: "And at the center of the world stood the great city of Arlathan, a place of knowledge and debate, where the best of the ancient elves would go to trade knowledge, greet old friends, and settle disputes that had gone on for millennia. Thus it is entirely possible that only the chosen followers of the Evanuris were allowed access to Arlathan and, whether called slaves or not, the servant class were denied.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2019 23:35:37 GMT
The thing about these books-memories is that they are conveying things on more than just written word levels - otherwise, how could we explain suddenly becoming so well-versed in ancient Elvhen? The Inquisitor and their people have clearly picked up some of the language over the years, but usually if we're faced with straightforward written records (ToM puzzles, Solasan, etc) t hen it's indeed clear that there's enough ambiguity to make the full reading difficult.
Not so with these books-memories. These books directly contextualize whatever words there are (it could also explain why plain words are so vague - because original words came with other magical elements that may have been stripped or suppressed by time or the Veil) and go as far as recording stuff like sights, sounds, smells and sentiments. The feelings especially are noted in descriptions we are presented [...] ... Is it clear though? I know at this point my arguments are seemingly going that obstinate "well nothing is objective" route but hear me out. These book memories may be memories. That is true and I accept that true. Thus I have treated the codex entries in the Vir-Dirthara as the best first hand accounts of ancient Arlathan we currently have on record. especially since, as many have said, these are memories and not just text on a physical writing medium. But does that neccesarily mean these memory-books are infallible or even complete when they convey thier content? Can you point me to the place where I said that these memory-books are infallible? On the contrary - I keep underlining across this discussion that these are materials that are largely pro-Evanuris and that Vir Dirtara is a repository of materials that were acceptable for the state to be there, ergo: they can't really be all immaculately objective. And it's exactly the reason why I think that the mention of slavery in this place is particularly significant. Because this isn't a source we find in Fen'Harel's Sanctuary or among Dalish legends - this is a direct, as close to first-hand it can be, ancient source from a place that has all the interest (as suggested by other ancient sources we find in the Library) in painting the Empire and its rulers in favorable light. And it STILL mentions slavery and does so rather matter-of-factly, making it quite apparent that slavery was a thing in the Empire. Context is key here. Even if we assume that the readers lacked enough depth to decipher ALL of information from book-memory, or that info may have deteriorated together with the Library... why can't it be a short record for posterity's sake? We have those here in the news or official records or encyclopedias. They are usually contextualized by other excerpts or records (or whole separate books on the topic) and there CLEARLY were more surviving in that library - we just didn't have access or time to read them all, realistically. And taking into context out-of-story intentions of writers from meta perspective - we were given a directed, reasonably-spaced glimpse on materials there, with specific language used or specific codices shown to convey certain ideas of how the Empire was. Yep - and that High In Hightown excerpt was a markedly different kind of book. No longer a book-memory, but a straightforwardly written part of a conventional book. An exception that proves the rule anywhere else in the Library. Also, I think you mean that Sera sees a different FORM, not different content of book-memories. But I'm glad you've mentioned it, because I was supposed to rise that point in the past to giggle at the fact that the Elvhen use books when the probability is high that their records may have looked different originally. But the devs had to convey that it was a library and it so happens that both the audience and modern Thedosians in-universe largely perceive books and their shape as medium carrying knowledge and information. Things can't be TOO confusing. That elves could see their records as something else is entirely plausible, especially that IRL we're also slowly move away from books as most convenient format for information storage as well. It's overall a fun observation, but irrelevant to topic at large. Sera didn't claim that what we read is different to her. We also have no indication that past records have been tampered with or revised. Even if we assume that scholarly rules against tampering with sources (without leaving records of it in itself) deteriorated as the Library did, or there's some 'leakage' or larger Fade that contaminates records, or that we don't understand the half of it, the book-memories contain intricate details of things no earlier records across all the games or books have hinted at. Aand - again - the Library overall remains pro-Evanuris. If the Library or remaining spirits have indeed revised records you'd think at least some anti-Evanuris sentiment would noticeably crop up at places (and the writers would deign to show some of it to create more ambiguity). It doesn't. The sources obviously remain biased in their own way, but at the same time they write a coherent picture that is also fairly consistent with a larger picture emerging from sources we find outside of Library in terms of what Elvenhan was - a highly advanced magical pre-Veil civilization that was also a theocracy ruled by fickle rules who claim to be gods and a society with rigid strata, which includes the strata of slaves. Like... I'm sorry, but it's splitting hair at this point when it comes to original issue of whether there was slavery or not - so while I agree that we shouldn't take *each* codex entry as "objective truth from the perspective of the writer 100% of time" - the fact that a piece of fairly well-preserved part of Evanuris-ruled chunk of Elvhen kingdom mentions slavery by name does its part in confirming picture emerging if we take the other side into account. Like... even if we ignore Solas and his direct claims, we know from ancient mosaics in the Sanctuary (notably similar to book-memories in the way they convey information) that people who found refuge WERE slaves. If if they weren't what were they - deluded? Could Solas just brainwash some people to *thinking* they're slaves while they were not? I think this is just unnecessarily over-complicating things in an already complex universe. Like... what would even be the reason for writers to make this any more complicated than it is? You'd think that fighting theocracy - or whatever Evanuris were doing that scared the hell out of Solas in Deep Roads - is enough of a noble reason to oppose them or try and pull people on his side to overthrow the system. Yet slaves and breaking their chains from under Evanuris is consistently a topic that shows up in different places. There's no reason to over-complicate this with some esoteric override of ancient elvhen understanding with ours of any record that (apparently inconveniently for some) point exactly in that direction.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 25, 2019 0:30:18 GMT
[...] Like... I'm sorry, but it's splitting hair at this point when it comes to original issue of whether there was slavery or not - so while I agree that we shouldn't take *each* codex entry as "objective truth from the perspective of the writer 100% of time" - the fact that a piece of fairly well-preserved part of Evanuris-ruled chunk of Elvhen kingdom mentions slavery by name does its part in confirming picture emerging if we take the other side into account. [...] Ah....pardon? Back up for me, because I was under the impression we were talking about if the codex entries found in the Vir Dirthara and while they may be a truth, they were neccesarily the truth and that the interpretations of reading can potentially slightly vary given what we know of the nature of the library itself? I wasn't aware the existence of legit slavery in Arlathan was even in this particular debate. I thought the series made it clear that there were classes among the elves and that later entries (particularly Trespasser) all but broadcast that there were slaves--or at least slave class equivalents--in the time of Arlathan.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 25, 2019 0:54:40 GMT
[...] Like... I'm sorry, but it's splitting hair at this point when it comes to original issue of whether there was slavery or not - so while I agree that we shouldn't take *each* codex entry as "objective truth from the perspective of the writer 100% of time" - the fact that a piece of fairly well-preserved part of Evanuris-ruled chunk of Elvhen kingdom mentions slavery by name does its part in confirming picture emerging if we take the other side into account. [...] Ah....pardon? Back up for me, because I was under the impression we were talking about if the codex entries found in the Vir Dirthara and while they may be a truth, they were neccesarily the truth and that the interpretations of reading can potentially slightly vary given what we know of the nature of the library itself? I wasn't aware the existence of legit slavery in Arlathan was even in this particular debate. I thought the series made it clear that there were classes among the elves and that later entries (particularly Trespasser) all but broadcast that there were slaves--or at least slave class equivalents--in the time of Arlathan. Such was my assumption as well! But this larger discussion stemmed from a few folks in Schmooples Den questioning whether the institution of slavery has indeed existed in Arlathan or whether it was something more...er... benign?, like willing servitude or devotion to one's god - which in itself stemmed from a discussion of how accurate the Dalish folklore is if compared to true sequence of events (especially given its pro-Evanuris bent).
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Post by xerrai on Nov 25, 2019 1:31:46 GMT
Ah....pardon? Back up for me, because I was under the impression we were talking about if the codex entries found in the Vir Dirthara and while they may be a truth, they were neccesarily the truth and that the interpretations of reading can potentially slightly vary given what we know of the nature of the library itself? I wasn't aware the existence of legit slavery in Arlathan was even in this particular debate. I thought the series made it clear that there were classes among the elves and that later entries (particularly Trespasser) all but broadcast that there were slaves--or at least slave class equivalents--in the time of Arlathan.Such was my assumption as well! But this larger discussion stemmed from a few folks in Schmooples Den questioning whether the institution of slavery has indeed existed in Arlathan or whether it was something more...er... benign?, like willing servitude or devotion to one's god - which in itself stemmed from a discussion of how accurate the Dalish folklore is if compared to true sequence of events (especially given its pro-Evanuris bent). To be fair, those ideas may have some grain of truth to them. For instance, before it became perverted into slavery, the marking system could have indeed been a means of showing devotion in the beginning before the evanuris gained too much power and corrupted it. Or alternatively, some of the more seemingly benign owners could have treated thier slaves more favorably to the point that they were closer to favored disciples rather than slaves. 'Favored" slaves who are treated better that most other 'lower' slaves are nothing new. Nor is it new that some slaves are treated so much better than others than some can claim they are barely slaves at all. Mythal in particular seemed to treat her marked slaves closer to her honored guard than anything else (if Abelas and his sentinels are any indication). But still, the very fact Solas was able to rally a rebellion at all indicates that a substantial portion of the Arlathan population were oppressed or at the very least opposed to how the evanuris ran things. But back to (I think?) the original topic of Vir'Dirthara codex entry ambiguity? Small-but-important thing, but when I talking about potential 'tampering and revision' I was referring more to the nature of the memory retainment and perceptional variance provided by the library itself. As in, it is precisely because the memory-books will try to adjust to thier readers, that the original content may shift or vary slightly in an effort to accommodate to the new perception. The result is a revised memory that may loose some of the nuance/detail of the original content. And that's just revision based on reader perception and possibly the library trying to accommodate for a different viewer base. I may not know exactly what the "librarians" did but if thier name is any indication it they were probably there to assist in finding content and/or helping maintain the complete integrity of the memory itself. I mean, when the veil went down, this library was damaged. We see it in the crumbled architecture and arguably we see it in the codex entries themselves. Memories, if properly maintained by an attentive consciousness (which the library itself and the librarians likely tried to do) are near perfect picturesque glimpses into the past. But memories are not perfect--especially if not remembered frequently. They can 'remember' things slightly differently, details can be eroded, and most importantly---they can forget. By all means the library does better at preserving them than the base fade which gets its details thrown around every which way, and in its heyday all of these problems of memory tampering/revision was probably non-existent thanks to the maintained library and uncorrupted librarians, but I have serious problems believing this remains true for the Vir Dirthara today. Odds are, the codex entries we find, despite showing almost-perfect depictions of a certain event, will have some things missing or skewed. Missing bits of memory. Or memories that are remembered just a tad differently than was originally recorded. Things like that. More a testament to the encroachment of time and the effects of the veil rather than anything more...intelligent(?).
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 25, 2019 3:31:56 GMT
Such was my assumption as well! But this larger discussion stemmed from a few folks in Schmooples Den questioning whether the institution of slavery has indeed existed in Arlathan or whether it was something more...er... benign?, like willing servitude or devotion to one's god - which in itself stemmed from a discussion of how accurate the Dalish folklore is if compared to true sequence of events (especially given its pro-Evanuris bent). To be fair, those ideas may have some grain of truth to them. For instance, before it became perverted into slavery, the marking system could have indeed been a means of showing devotion in the beginning before the evanuris gained too much power and corrupted it. Or alternatively, some of the more seemingly benign owners could have treated thier slaves more favorably to the point that they were closer to favored disciples rather than slaves. 'Favored" slaves who are treated better that most other 'lower' slaves are nothing new. Nor is it new that some slaves are treated so much better than others than some can claim they are barely slaves at all. Mythal in particular seemed to treat her marked slaves closer to her honored guard than anything else (if Abelas and his sentinels are any indication). But still, the very fact Solas was able to rally a rebellion at all indicates that a substantial portion of the Arlathan population were oppressed or at the very least opposed to how the evanuris ran things. Oh, I agree. I even mentioned somewhere above that I wonder when willing servitude or priesthood may have devolved into slavery - or when things began to slide from probably well-meaning to what they ended up being. And while I don't necessarily think that the class of Mythal's priests is the same as class of slaves, it's also probable that Mythal's priests are either the last holdovers or closest iterations to what the system may have been at the beginning. She even laughs at Inquisitor that drank from Well-Of-Sorrows and the fact that they think they are her servants. However, this couldn't have been a notion across Elvenhan, especially that Mythal is noted by Solas to be an outlier among Evanuris rather than a standard - and I don't really think that slavery would be mentioned as much as it is, if this is merely what Solas and his followers viewed willing servants or worshipers, even if those were duped. As much as Elvenhan was about metaphors and double-(or more)-meanings, the picture of rigid social strata and slavery appears to be what it is. I do however wonder how it all began - and I don't necessarily mean priesthood or willing servitude, but what gave the impulse to all that. Of course, classism and slavery doesn't have to have any sort of rational beginnings, as we know from IRL world. But it's possible that they may have in Elvenhan, especially that the rise of Evanuris itself came after what must've been a pretty significant war. And some sources, especially those from Temple Of Mythal, seem to suggest that the bond between the chosen deity and their subject is something special - so I have to wonder what it was. Did it protect people from something? Did it, in return, give Evanuris more power? The notion that belief is what's making deities/similar beings more powerful is hardly a new trope, and it would certainly be something that's congruent with DA word, with the Fade and it being powered by memory and will and so on. Plus, it could also explain why Evanuris (or at least some of them, like Falon'Din) would crave more worshipers and why the gods would subjugate people. If anything, the codices like Signs of Victory or Rising the Sonallium do support the idea of thousands of people being able to channel tremendous amounts of power in order to create elaborate marvels (plus, in Inquisition the mages also 'let their will be drawn' and channeled by Inquisitor in order to close the Breach) and it's not far from here to the idea that all that priesthood and slavery and vallaslins and whatever else was there may have had similarly amplified power of their gods. While theoretically possible, I don't think that what we are meant to overthink this too much. The sources we get in DA are already inherently biased and I don't think we're meant to add too many layers of complexity here, as much as it's fun to speculate this thing to death. All in all, I think what we were presented with wasn't straying far from original. It may have been that original record may have been more elaborate and we got the gist of it... but we did get the gist of it. Otherwise having a repository of knowledge and memories doesn't really have much sense for me, be it from in-universe or meta-perspective. I mean, even if the record accommodates to limited perception of the reader, the accommodation is probably there for the memory to be understood better, instead of just reflecting someone's biases and muddying the picture. Inquisitor even has a dialogue in which they suggest that the Library is/was a place of learning and it may even actively help them to find what they need. Seeing how we are actively being inquisitive about what that place even is and what's the history of elves is and then the Veil and so on, if the Library is indeed actively helping us (or does so via helpful Spirit Of Learning which does actively help us) to get to the bottom of it in whatever limited way it could, then the last thing it'd probably do is presenting a picture that is too skewed. The above is true across all Fade - Solas even tells us that memories are like human history books, full of biases, limitations, gaps in memory and so on. Yet some sort of picture of truth can be extracted from it and it's no different with sources from Vir Dirthara. I mean, this was never *just* about sources of Vir Dirtara - to cobble a full picture a good old method of scholarly approach of examining sources and comparing them to whatever else we've found elsewhere still needs to be done.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Nov 25, 2019 15:45:36 GMT
This was recently found in the Trespasser files. A lot to unpack here, but what makes me most curious are the other three heads that didn't make it into the game. The Dragon next to the wolf is certainly Mythal as the head is similar to the crest Flemeth often wears. The one on the far right is most likely Elgar'nan, child of the Sun. I'm not sure about the last one - maybe Dirthamen? How did Elgar'nan and Dirthamen go from helping Solas free slaves to being banished by him? I'd bet that the rebellion ties into how Mythal was betrayed.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 25, 2019 16:09:21 GMT
This was recently found in the Trespasser files. A lot to unpack here, but what makes me most curious are the other three heads that didn't make it into the game. The Dragon next to the wolf is certainly Mythal as the head is similar to the crest Flemeth often wears. The one on the far right is most likely Elgar'nan, child of the Sun. I'm not sure about the last one - maybe Dirthamen? How did Elgar'nan and Dirthamen go from helping Solas free slaves to being banished by him? I'd bet that the rebellion ties into how Mythal was betrayed. I don't know....if we are indeed attributing each rebellion picture/story to a god who supported the rebellion, and two of those were Elgar'nan and Mythal (AKA the two heads of the empire) then it makes you wonder why slavery was still such a major part of the empire if both heads were apparently willing to support abolition. Although instead of Elgar'nan, maybe Sylaise was involved? She too is associated with fire from time to time, and she may have a potential motive for going against slavery if it meant surpassing the other evanuris by means of popular support. But devil's advocate says her goal for surpassing the other evanuris may be why she would ultimately not side with the rebellion either, since a rebellion goes against the very institutions she was to rank up in (although that could tie into the "evanuris betrayal theory" rather nicely). As for the other picture though. Yeah I'm not too sure. I want to say Dirthamen too but I'm having a hard time recognizing the iconography. I mean, I can't see Falon'Din or Andruil supporting Fen'Harel if any of thier 'holy wars' and 'hunting mortals/elves' thing has any truth to it. And while I could say the icon is showing horns (thus pointing to Ghilan'nain) it doesn't quite mesh. It might be June? We never hear about that guy but you never know. That symbol could be depicting an ancient crafting device like the arulin'holm. But right now your guess is as good as mine.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 25, 2019 16:16:50 GMT
This was recently found in the Trespasser files. A lot to unpack here, but what makes me most curious are the other three heads that didn't make it into the game. The Dragon next to the wolf is certainly Mythal as the head is similar to the crest Flemeth often wears. The one on the far right is most likely Elgar'nan, child of the Sun. I'm not sure about the last one - maybe Dirthamen? How did Elgar'nan and Dirthamen go from helping Solas free slaves to being banished by him? I'd bet that the rebellion ties into how Mythal was betrayed. I think these were mostly different versions of Fen'Harel's crest and they've had 4 versions to pick from. I don't necessarily think that the 2 other heads are dragons - I think they may be more abstract representations of a wolf... or Solas's dragon form? He 100% had one, IMO. We've already seen very abstract representations for other Evanuris across different games - and in Trespasser as well, like the sleek, bird-like creature with multiple prongs/rays for Mythal. The last one isn't necessarily the sun, but sunrise - probably symbolizing a new beginning for freed elves and thus a chosen crest for the place, rather than Fen'Harel per se. I think they've ultimately picked the wolf's head to not confuse people.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 25, 2019 16:51:16 GMT
Hold up, I think I recognize a few of those sigils from the shattered library? Like, on the eluvians? Specifically the sun one and the horned one? I'm gonna need to double check though I could easily be wrong. Edit: Well I'm not sure if it something but apparently yeah, at least two of the sigils in those image are exceptionally similar to those in the shattered library. Similar but not exact. The sunlight one connects the sundered hall to the courtyard, and from there the horned one leads to the broken tower where one of the puzzles is located. This admittedly could be a coincidence. But here's a vid that can show anyone interested (3:16 for the sunlight eluvian, 3:36 to see the horned eluvian). Not sure this means anything at all. But I may as well mention it.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 25, 2019 17:19:11 GMT
Hold up, I think I recognize a few of those sigils from the shattered library? Like, on the eluvians? Specifically the sun one and the horned one? I'm gonna need to double check though I could easily be wrong. It's the head of that sleek, abstract figure of Mythal (though I suspect the 7-pronged version may represent Evanuris as a whole) that I've mentioned earlier. You can find the statue when you cross the path from Winter Palace eluvian towards eluvian for Mountain Ruins and then compare the two. The two-pronged Mythal's figure (that are from time when Evanuris may have not been a thing yet) can be found in the Deep Roads.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 25, 2019 17:38:11 GMT
Huh. Cool. I must admit I just thought the stylized eluvians were more to help with navigation in an otherwise confusing setting than anything else.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 25, 2019 17:53:32 GMT
Huh. Cool. I must admit I just thought the stylized eluvians were more to help with navigation in an otherwise confusing setting than anything else. It doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 25, 2019 19:02:08 GMT
Is it possible that originally they were going to represent the Forgotten Ones who supported Fen'Harel in his war? Up to now we have only been given the names of 3 Forgotten Ones: Gelduran; Daern'thal and Anaris. Apparently Anaris is mentioned in the secret greeting in his sanctuary. So may be there were only 3 and they were his allies. Even the Dalish tales suggest as much and also that they were the opposing group in the war that was happening immediately before he banished them all from the world. It would also confirm the idea that effectively he tricked/betrayed both sides when he imprisoned them.
The Dalish attribute negative attributes to the Forgotten Ones but that is hardly surprising given their opposition to the Creators, although the declaration of Gelduran that we find does suggest that he may have been a nasty piece of work himself as he seems to suggest that he objects to their assumption of godhood over him, not their dominance over others which he intends to claim once they are out of the way. So it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the images are symbolic of them and their similarity to that of known Evanuris is simply that they are part of the same school of iconography, or even that each of them adopted a similar representation to leading representatives of their enemies as a mockery of them.
It is a pity they didn't make it into the final version of Trespasser but perhaps the writers felt they wanted to save something for the future.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Nov 26, 2019 2:01:28 GMT
Is it possible that originally they were going to represent the Forgotten Ones who supported Fen'Harel in his war? Up to now we have only been given the names of 3 Forgotten Ones: Gelduran; Daern'thal and Anaris. Apparently Anaris is mentioned in the secret greeting in his sanctuary. So may be there were only 3 and they were his allies. Even the Dalish tales suggest as much and also that they were the opposing group in the war that was happening immediately before he banished them all from the world. It would also confirm the idea that effectively he tricked/betrayed both sides when he imprisoned them. The Dalish attribute negative attributes to the Forgotten Ones but that is hardly surprising given their opposition to the Creators, although the declaration of Gelduran that we find does suggest that he may have been a nasty piece of work himself as he seems to suggest that he objects to their assumption of godhood over him, not their dominance over others which he intends to claim once they are out of the way. So it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the images are symbolic of them and their similarity to that of known Evanuris is simply that they are part of the same school of iconography, or even that each of them adopted a similar representation to leading representatives of their enemies as a mockery of them. It is a pity they didn't make it into the final version of Trespasser but perhaps the writers felt they wanted to save something for the future. The Forgotten Ones were my first thought upon seeing 3 unknown symbols grouped with fen'harel too. It seems very possible that Solas allied with the Forgotten Ones for a time since judging by Gelduran's declaration it seems they would want to depose the Evanuris too, but for their/his own power which would probably have led to that alliance crumbling/Fen'harel betraying them aswell.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 26, 2019 3:26:23 GMT
Is it possible that originally they were going to represent the Forgotten Ones who supported Fen'Harel in his war? Up to now we have only been given the names of 3 Forgotten Ones: Gelduran; Daern'thal and Anaris. Apparently Anaris is mentioned in the secret greeting in his sanctuary. I don't think Anaris was mentioned as a name, but a word. You know, like 'Abelas' that also means sorrow - or 'Solas' that means pride, but not necessarily a specific person. In fact it was mentioned as vir-anaris... I'm not sure they were his allies - they may as well have been once, only to turn into a side that he's played. It was kind of the context for Felassan's tale in which he mentions Anaris - and he doesn't mention him as someone who is allied with Fen'Harel, but as someone who swore he'd kill him. Naturally, we can't tell how accurate (and how trollish...) Felassan's tale is, but if we take that tale at face value then it seems that Anaris was more determined to kill Fen'Harel than Andruil was at that point, who only demanded a pretty wild punishment from him. To be fair, the Creators aren't necessarily portrayed - even in favorable texts - as sugar, spice and everything nice. Falon'Din was god of death and Elgar'nan was god of anger and vengeance. We know that Mythal herself was ambiguous, being both protective and fierce. I honestly don't think they've intended to mention them much at any stage of development. Trespasser is already incredibly dense story- or information-wise - it wouldn't be wise to put Forgotten Ones into the mix, especially that the focus of the DLC was on Evanuris and establishing more concrete basics for understanding Elvenhan and what happened to it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 26, 2019 17:25:15 GMT
Naturally, we can't tell how accurate (and how trollish...) Felassan's tale is, but if we take that tale at face value then it seems that Anaris was more determined to kill Fen'Harel than Andruil was at that point, who only demanded a pretty wild punishment from him. I think the tale was more symbolic. The essential truth of the tale was that he did play off one side against the other (as Dalish tales suggest as well) whilst freeing himself (and the elves) from them both. After all, in another tale, Felassan has Fen'Harel offering very morally dubious advice to someone trying to discover the identity of an unknown girl, by essentially committing murder in order to cause another funeral to take place. Now Solas may have done some questionable things in the past but making such a suggestion seems way out of character for him, so either it was entirely fabricated or had some hidden symbolism concerning real events that we are as yet unaware of. The story of the Slow Arrow was clearly symbolic so I think they all were.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 26, 2019 18:29:18 GMT
Naturally, we can't tell how accurate (and how trollish...) Felassan's tale is, but if we take that tale at face value then it seems that Anaris was more determined to kill Fen'Harel than Andruil was at that point, who only demanded a pretty wild punishment from him. I think the tale was more symbolic. The essential truth of the tale was that he did play off one side against the other (as Dalish tales suggest as well) whilst freeing himself (and the elves) from them both. After all, in another tale, Felassan has Fen'Harel offering very morally dubious advice to someone trying to discover the identity of an unknown girl, by essentially committing murder in order to cause another funeral to take place. Now Solas may have done some questionable things in the past but making such a suggestion seems way out of character for him, so either it was entirely fabricated or had some hidden symbolism concerning real events that we are as yet unaware of. The story of the Slow Arrow was clearly symbolic so I think they all were. I agree with you that these tales were mostly symbolic. But there were ways to tell this tale without referencing what were effectively real people, so I think there may have been truth to the nature of their relationships. Never mind that we don't know who the Forgotten Ones really were. Were they even a unified group? Geldauran has left what was basically a manifesto that makes it seem like he was a lone actor. I keep theorizing that the Forgotten Ones may be Evanuris' political enemies and - as that - they don't necessarily have to be a unified faction (or maybe they unified later by common enemy). Forgetting someone seems to be a form of severe - if not ultimate - punishment in Elvenhan, as exemplified in Solasan, where the offending person is sentenced to be basically forgotten. It would also explain why Fen'Harel was counted into Forgotten Ones - because Evanuris have intended the same fate for him.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 26, 2019 20:24:19 GMT
We always associate the Titans with the beginning of the end for Elvhenan. 'Something' was uncovered underground, and it was clear the defeat of the Titans meant the evanuris all but gorged on excess power. So if the Titans were closer to the end, I took that to mean that the Forgotten Ones were closer to the beginning of Elvhenan. Because while they were certainly around durring elvhenan's height, they are not really mentioned in all that many places. Almost like they were barely a problem at all. When asking Solas how the evanuris went from mages to gods he answered "Slowly. It started with a war." and while I'm not too sure on this, I always thought this conflict was with either other elves (forgotten ones), dragons or primordial spirits. I can't see it being humans, dwarves or qunari since the elves didn't care about them until much later. So my probably wrong but general timeline of events is like this: - "A War" (Possibly with the forgotten ones). The mages that would become the evanuris win this conflict.
- Evanuris Base Group Established (Generals to respected Elders).
- Elvhenan Enters a Golden Age. The elves start gaining magical advancement knowledge and power. But especially the evanuris, who controlled most of it. (Elders to Kings)
- Elvhenan is Still Going Strong. But now we start seeing the Evanuris fighting against eachother and squabbling over sometimes petty things.
- Elvhenan Battles the Titans and Wins. The elves are brought into conflict with the dwarves and thier Titans. Likely because of how they started affecting thier cities or because the elves got greedy. But the result is acsess to lyrium, underground cities and probably the uncovering/invention of a dangerous something. *cough* the Taint *cough*. (Either Kings to Gods or Gods to Stronger Gods)
- Fen'Harel and His Rebellion. While Solas was probably already started his rebellion a long before this and became evanuris enemy #1, he started making massive gains in this time. Myhtal and he stablished spy networks, and Solas became even more motivated to make sure the other Evanuris don't take things too far. They probably already did with what they uncovered within the Titans but Mythal+Solas probably thought it sufficiently buried for the time being.
Industrial Lyrium Revolution. Because of thier access to lyrium, the elves were likely able to create several new things. Things like Spellweaver and possibly the ancient elvhen robes come to mind. Possibly the eluvians too [Since eluvians can become tainted several players have taken this as sign lyrium is one of the ingredients used to make them].
- Steady Decline of Elvhenan. This is probably the time period Andruil goes hunting in 'the void', Falon'Din does his war and has be brought down in his temple and other such things. Although Elvhenan is still ok the evanuris are becoming more and more corrupt with power.
- Mythal Is Killed. Mythal is betrayed by someone or someones. We aren't sure who exactly but we know Solas thinks its the Evanuris and he considers this the last straw.
- Fen'Harel Creates the Veil. Solas believes the evanuris would destroy the whole world with thier lust for power. Combined with thier murder of Mythal he decides to seal them away forever. He creates the veil, thus sealing them away but ultimately destroying Elvhenan in the process.
Admittedly there are a few points where i'm fuzzy. Like when exactly Elvhenan was established, and when exactly the evanuris went from elders to gods, or even if Falon'Din did his war when he did. Which is to say nothing of other things like Ghilain'nain's and Fen'Harel's ascension, the possible creation of qunari and dragons becoming a divine privilege. But this my general understanding of what went down and when.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 26, 2019 21:27:01 GMT
I took that to mean that the Forgotten Ones were closer to the beginning of Elvhenan. Well it is possible they were originally condemned to be "forgotten" at an early stage but then continued to oppose the Evanuris from the shadows, only to come to the fore again near the end. It just seems to me that the Dalish legend that has them in opposition to the Creators and then Fen'Harel tricking both sides into his trap seems to ring true with what he admits to. Bear in mind it was never stated exactly who the term Evanuris applied to. The word means leader so was given to the generals in the original war. That could have included Gelduran, Anaris and Daern'thal, so the reason they objected so strongly to the Creator faction is that they didn't accept their later assumption of godhood because they knew they had started out the same. In fact the Creator faction seem to have remembered this part because in the Dalish legend both groups are designated gods but the Forgotten Ones are the bad gods whilst the Creators are the good ones. That suggests both groups were once seen as equals by the general populace. According to WoT, which of course is always subject to revision, Arlathan was established some 3000 years before contact was made with the dwarves. So you could be right and the war that started the rise to godhood was much earlier than the one with the Titans. However, it is also possible that the Creators were exactly as their title suggests, the creators of Elvhenan and Mythal, who is remembered for her cities, founded Arlathan when her fellow Evanuris were still largely positive forces in the world encouraging the development of elven civilisation. Then the conflict with the Titans caused them to become destructive entities, which went against their original nature as creative beings, and thus led to their corruption. Again according to WoT, it was another 1500 years before humans entered the picture which was around the time that Solas created the Veil and entrapped the gods.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Nov 26, 2019 21:43:13 GMT
It's implied that Mythal and Elgar'nan both ascended to godhood by defeating the Titans, and since Geldaraun's codex mentions being against their godhood, I'd say that the Forgotten Ones came after the war with the Titans. "Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever! Linkand... "Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!" LinkI believe that when the Evanuris started lyrium-branding their slaves is when The Forgotten Ones began to form, as Geldaraun's codex also states: "I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me" "Exert will upon me," sounds similar to the power of the Well of Sorrows, how Mythal's will is exerted upon whoever drinks from it. I'd notion that all Evanuris had a way of bounding their slaves to their will - possibly with their respective orbs. Gervaise, you bringing up the point that the Forgotten Ones are also considered gods in Dalish legends is interesting. They certainly didn't call themselves gods and I doubt that the Evanuris would consider them as gods. I'm curious what can explain that. Since it's mentioned that they thrive in the "abyss," I seriously wonder if they connect with the Dwarves in any way.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 27, 2019 18:16:18 GMT
Gervaise, you bringing up the point that the Forgotten Ones are also considered gods in Dalish legends is interesting. They certainly didn't call themselves gods and I doubt that the Evanuris would consider them as gods. I'm curious what can explain that. Since it's mentioned that they thrive in the "abyss," I seriously wonder if they connect with the Dwarves in any way. Well Solas denies the concept of godhood and yet he is also named a god by the legends. There could be various explanations for this. If we assume that those named gods are the most powerful of the elves, then to the ordinary rank and file they all must be the same, so if the Creators are gods, so must the others. It is also possible that the Evanuris allowed them the rank of god so that their rebellion seemed more a falling out of equals rather than inferiors challenging their authority, as they didn't want the rest getting ideas. After all, Solas says the title Fen'Harel was given to him by his enemies and then he adopted it for his own. May be it was the same for the others and they attributed them with malice, disease and other bad stuff in order to emphasise how they should be avoided. Or may be it was simply that they dared to fly in the form of the Divine, in other words as dragons. I seriously wonder if they connect with the Dwarves in any way. I think they may be connected with the Deep Roads. The terms "Void" and "Abyss" seem to be interchangeable and the latter can refer to the Fade or the Deep Roads. If Andruil didn't go hunting them in the part of the Fade known as the Void, then possibly it was in the Deep Roads. May be they used some sort of strange magic on her or it was even the Forgotten Ones who first discovered red lyrium and how to use it as a weapon, which explains why they were also linked with malice and disease. The elves refer to the place where the Blight originated as Banalhan (the place of Nothing or Void) but what if it also meant "the place of the Forgotten Ones". If we go by the Dalish legend then during the truce the Creators retired to heaven (place in the sky/Fade/Arlathan) and the Forgotten Ones to the Abyss (Deep Roads?) after which Fen'Harel trapped them all. Of course if there were actually seven Forgotten Ones then that would point to the Old Gods being the Forgotten Ones, trapped underground in the dragon form.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 27, 2019 19:41:30 GMT
Gervaise, you bringing up the point that the Forgotten Ones are also considered gods in Dalish legends is interesting. They certainly didn't call themselves gods and I doubt that the Evanuris would consider them as gods. I'm curious what can explain that. Since it's mentioned that they thrive in the "abyss," I seriously wonder if they connect with the Dwarves in any way. Well Solas denies the concept of godhood and yet he is also named a god by the legends. There could be various explanations for this. If we assume that those named gods are the most powerful of the elves, then to the ordinary rank and file they all must be the same, so if the Creators are gods, so must the others. It is also possible that the Evanuris allowed them the rank of god so that their rebellion seemed more a falling out of equals rather than inferiors challenging their authority, as they didn't want the rest getting ideas. After all, Solas says the title Fen'Harel was given to him by his enemies and then he adopted it for his own. May be it was the same for the others and they attributed them with malice, disease and other bad stuff in order to emphasise how they should be avoided. Or may be it was simply that they dared to fly in the form of the Divine, in other words as dragons. I sort of had a similar idea - I mean, aside from not knowing what his status was *before* he began rebellion, I thought that perhaps Evanuris have added Fen'Harel for one of two reasons: either they thought that this is what rebellion was about; that they were so absorbed with politicking and gaining power for so long that perhaps they've lost touch with reality and imagined that if they add Fen'Harel to his own ranks he's going to be more or less pacified (I wouldn't be surprised if some other Evanuris didn't pull a similar stunt like this earlier, given that we know that they've warred with one another). OR that this was a tactical PR game more than anything else - that they've intentionally tried to put a wedge between him and his followers, given that he's rallied people to his side by claiming that Evanuris aren't gods and that they can be defeated. It makes Solas look dishonest AND propagates the idea that there's a distinction between Evanuris and people that they've ruled, thus making the rebellion seem futile or as something that serves as a tool to further the ambitions of Fen'Harel. Anyway - I think the whole dragon shape was mostly a status symbol reserved for gods and those they favor. In a society with a rigid social structure crossing such boundaries would likely be seen as a big no-no, especially if Evanuris have indeed put a lot of energy in making the distinction between them and an average mortal that they've ruled. While I agree that there may be a connection between Void and 'Deep Roads', I personally don't think it's a straightforward one. The Void appears to be indeed a specific section or layer of the Fade - the clearest implication of that is by none other than Solas himself, who directly states to us that he went to look for his spirit friend and noticed 'stirrings of energy in the Void', only to say that someday something new may grow there. Amusingly, with this Solas appears to confirm that there may be something to Canticle Of Andraste, which basically calls the Void the 'well of all souls' from which life starts anew. For me it suggests that the Void is probably either primordial Fade or a specific part of it through which souls and spirits venture to be reborn - or 'reforged', for lack of a better word. It also probably means that it's a bit more complex thing than either the Chantry or maybe even how ancient Elvhen viewed it, as both implicate that it's a place/dimension/state that is... well, if not straightforwardly bad than at the very least dangerous. People like Solas, however, likely view it as a lot more nuanced thing - which is probably why he may not fear this place/layer of the Fade its corruption just like he doesn't fear spirits he encounters and can become fast friends with. The Void, being part of the Fade, probably reflects minds of people back at them, so it's probable that when, say, Andruil has entered it she eventually got corrupted either by her questionable intentions or whatever she's found there that she was susceptible to. Anyway - I personally don't think that the Void in the Fade is as much connected with Deep Roads as it's with the Blight, or whatever it may have originally been (the Gangue?). I say so because both Fade and Earth are pretty consistently portrayed as two parts of a bigger whole that mirror one another. And not as much Deep Roads, but underground, the Titans and dwarves are connected to that side of the coin, or what as well may be a physical representation of the Void from which eventually the Blight has sprung.
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