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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2020 16:04:46 GMT
As far as the Bear goes... I"m not sure how Bears connect with Dirthamen's role as Keeper of Secrets. Maybe they were too damn powerful to kill even back in ancient days Someone suggested it was because bears hibernate so they appear to go into an animal Uthenera and the ancients did this to get secrets from the Fade but the bears never divulge what secrets they are given whilst in their long sleep: " No beast is more beloved by Dirthamen than the bear. When the world was new, Dirthamen gave one secret to each creature to keep. The foxes traded their secrets to Andruil for wings. The hares shouted theirs to the treetops. The birds sold theirs for gold and silver. Only the bears kept Dirthamen's gift, deep within their dens, they slept the months away in the company of their secrets and nothing else.
When Dirthamen discovered what had been done with his gifts, he snatched the wings from the foxes, silenced the voices of the hares, and turned the birds into paupers. but the bears he honoured for their steadfastness." We haven't seen any flying foxes yet (although apparently Dirthamen took away their wings as punishment) but of course in our world the Flying Fox is a bat. That is an interesting little story really for the symbolism. It probably indicates some sort of test that Dirthamen gave those wishing to enter his service to see if they were worthy of it. Some traded their secrets to other gods for their favour, some were just too keen on gossip, some could be bribed, but the "bears" were the elves he knew could be trusted in the future. It is also interesting that a servant of Dirthamen was led astray by Ghilan'nain by encouraging them to take wings. So it would seem like the Dalish story and the ancient account had some elements in common, considering that Ghilan'nain was an ally of Anduril. If Ghilan'nain had encouraged his follower to divulge some of his secrets in return for the knowledge of how to shapeshift into a dragon, it is no wonder that bear looks so angry as it grabs at the white horned female. Remember the dragon form was allowed to the Chosen of the gods as well as the gods themselves, so in time he might have allowed this follower the secret of "wings" but they betrayed his trust instead to get them more quickly. Thus he would have immediately disowned them as a Chosen one and agreed that Mythal should judge them. There was definitely some power play going on between Dirthamen, Ghilan'nain, Andruil and probably Falon'Din as well. So far as strength goes, I'd have thought a 6-eyed bear would be more powerful than a 6-eyed wolf, all else being equal.
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Post by ellehaym on Aug 9, 2020 18:18:50 GMT
The Sinner codex entry looks like it was a political maneuver by Ghilan'nain (not sure if Dirthamen was in on it) to sow discord between the People and the Evanuris. Her actions allowed people to realize that shape-shifting into a dragon is something anybody can do with enough skill and this might have lead to them questioning the powers of the Evanuris and might have even been the foundation of the rebellion.
Then there's Mythal allowing Elgar'nan judge the Sinner, which I believe made things worse due to how Elgar'nan can be.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 10, 2020 7:30:18 GMT
Her actions allowed people to realize that shape-shifting into a dragon is something anybody can do with enough skill and this might have lead to them questioning the powers of the Evanuris and might have even been the foundation of the rebellion. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine.I think it was not so much that the People weren't aware they were capable of taking the form of a dragon but that it wasn't allowed. Also, it wasn't just the gods who could take that form but also their Chosen. So if you had the favour of your patron god, then you were permitted to take the "divine" form. Ghilan'nain was clearly trying to stir things up but whether it was to inspire the ordinary elves or to score points over Dirthamen is not clear. However, they clearly had differing levels of magical ability, so it probably wasn't possible for a lot of ordinary elves to achieve dragon form or at the very least not possible without someone instructing you in the knowledge to achieve this. So the sinner probably already had a degree of magical ability above that of run of the mill elves. This is why I suggested that perhaps there is some connection with the Dalish story about the bears being the secret keepers for Dirthamen. If you wanted to be one of his Chosen "Bears" you had to prove yourself capable of keeping a secret. Ghilan'nain, who may not yet have been a god herself but just a Chosen of Andruil, suggested that if they told her Dirthamen's secret, she would give the knowledge of how to take wings. However, the authority to take wings should have come from Dirthamen as the sinner belonged to him, so he was a double traitor, both to Dirthamen in giving away his secret, and the gods generally for not obeying the law. What form someone took was clearly very much of significance to the elves. Even having form was indicative of being one of the People. When the Forbidden Ones shed the form to escape into the Fade to avoid battle with the Earth, it was clearly seen as worthy of permanent banishment from the lands of the Evanuris. The gods warn of the forms of Fen'Harel and how he varies his form to trick the unwary. So the People are familiar with the concept of shape-shifting but some forms are just not allowed without appropriate authorisation.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 10, 2020 9:33:01 GMT
This is not so much a crazy theory as a query. When the Inquisitor asks Solas about Corypheus' source of power her replies:
"Corypheus commands a false Arch-demon, a corrupted Old God. It suggests he no longer sees himself as their minion."
But wait a minute, why is he buying into the idea that Corypheus' dragon is anything more than a high dragon? Or a high dragon with a bit of Corypheus inside it and infected with the blight via red lyrium? Whilst he might not want to admit to knowledge about the split soul bit, what would be the harm in saying the dragon is just a dragon. Why make us think it is anything more?
Okay, he previously says the Dreamers of old got their power from the Old Gods, so Corypheus no longer thinks he needs to and is a power in his own right. Actually Corypheus doesn't think the Old Gods even exist anymore or aren't proper gods if they are underground instead of in the Black City. I still don't know why Solas had to reinforce the idea that his dragon is anything more than a dragon?
Then he confirms that Corypheus is getting his power partly from the Blight and partly from the orb. When talking about the powers he gets from the orb, the Inquisitor suggests the power to control the arch-demon. Except it isn't an arch-demon, is it?
Solas responds this could only be indirectly and then comes his speech about nothing in lore connecting his people with the Old God dragons who became arch-demons. So is he reinforcing the idea of the dragon being the equivalent of an arch-demon in order to get further away from the truth of what they really were? The Old Gods may have taken the form of dragons but they were so much more. Even Koslun knew that.
Leaving aside the other parts of his conversation where he is speculating about the orb being responsible for the breach, when he knows it is, and when he says he didn't think a Magister was capable of unlocking the orb and leaves out the word "safely" because after all he gave Corypheus the orb precisely so he could unlock it, there is this matter of the conversation referring to Corypheus' dragon.
Why does anyone think it is an arch-demon or even a false arch-demon? To even be remotely like the arch-demon it ought to be drawing on blight magic in its own right. All he has done is power up a high dragon with red lyrium. Also, if the Old Gods are no more than high dragons, even high dragons inhabited by a demon (like Hakkon) why would Solas be so upset about killing them? He isn't bothered about us killing Hakkon.
So from beginning to end of this conversation about Corypheus he actually tells us nothing useful that we couldn't have worked out for ourselves.
Actually, if Corypheus really believed himself their superior, why didn't he search out the last two Old Gods for himself? He ought to be able to hear their song. He doesn't have to worry about the darkspawn as he is one of them, so unlike the Grey Wardens he doesn't have to fight through hordes of darkspawn to get to them. What better display of power than to command the assistance of two true Arch-demons? So either Corypheus has dismissed them as mere high dragons or he wasn't sure he could control them. This would make sense because whilst the Arch-demon couldn't control the Architect, equally he had no control over the Arch-demon.
Instead Corypheus found an ordinary high dragon, corrupted it with red lyrium and then presented this to the world as evidence he could control an arch-demon, which for some reason everyone bought into even though there were many people around who could remember exactly what a true arch-demon was like.
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Post by grallon on Aug 10, 2020 15:51:06 GMT
Instead Corypheus found an ordinary high dragon, corrupted it with red lyrium and then presented this to the world as evidence he could control an arch-demon, which for some reason everyone bought into even though there were many people around who could remember exactly what a true arch-demon was like. Could anyone beside the Grey Wardens make the distinction? And they were 'otherwise occupied' by the time Corypheus revealed his dragon at Adamant. What IS the difference between a regular high dragon and and archdemon? Sentience alone? In which case those imprisoned in the Deep Roads would be akin to Hakkon. But then again we know there's a hierarchy in the Fade. The Faith Spirits are said to be the rearest (like the one who took the shape of the Divine?) - so what is the opposite of Faith? Which brings the question: what kind of spirits were the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones before they took shape? To be honest, I've never liked the idea of spirits crossing over, despite the existing lore about the pre-Veil Fade. Despite the evidence that Cole represents. It always seemed like a contrived mcguffin to me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 10, 2020 16:56:54 GMT
Could anyone beside the Grey Wardens make the distinction? And they were 'otherwise occupied' by the time Corypheus revealed his dragon at Adamant. What IS the difference between a regular high dragon and and archdemon? There were any number of people, including Leliana, who had seen an arch-demon up close during the Fifth Blight. Now as I understand it the arch-demon utilises a blight magic spiritual attack, which isn't nearly as deadly in game as it is in Last Flight but still pretty effective. Now the red lyrium dragon seemed to be using the same attack as Corypheus, which was a red lyrium attack. I was never quite clear, what that a spiritual attack? Anyway, whilst red lyrium is blighted, that doesn't seem exactly the same thing. As for the difference between a high dragon and an Old God, well according to Arishok Sten the Tome of Koslun says that the "Old Gods were like unto dragons as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men." Now the first human kings were Dreamers, so not just mages but ultra-powerful mages; in a similar way the Old Gods were not just dragons or even high dragons but great dragons. Furthermore unless great dragons were intelligent and gifted enough to contact others through the Fade, then it seems they must have had a co-existing spirit. So Corypheus splitting his soul and putting it into the dragon would be mimicking that part of the Old God make-up but it is not clear how that relationship works. Was Corypheus able to view the world through the dragon's eyes? Is that why his dragon was at Adamant but he wasn't? That would mean he was in a safe location somewhere in a trance to maintain contact. Or was the dragon acting independently? Anyway, I didn't find the red lyrium dragon any harder to kill than some of the high dragons we encountered in the game, which it should have been if it was anywhere near the power of an arch-demon. Another weird thing is that if Corypheus was linked to his dragon, then surely when he was killed his soul should have jumped to rejoin his other half, just as happened when we killed the dragon and it returned to him? Instead it jumped to the nearest Grey Warden. Also, if the dragon was the reason we couldn't kill him, had it been around since ancient times? Because Hawke couldn't kill him and he jumped to the Grey Warden back then as well. So there seemed a lot of loose ends about that whole explanation. Hakkon did seem to give an idea of what an arch-demon is. I would imagine the Old Gods would be stronger and there is that song they give off both before and after release. I don't believe Hakkon anything like that. So another example of how Old Gods differ from normal possessed high dragons.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 11, 2020 6:20:49 GMT
Could anyone beside the Grey Wardens make the distinction? And they were 'otherwise occupied' by the time Corypheus revealed his dragon at Adamant. What IS the difference between a regular high dragon and and archdemon? There were any number of people, including Leliana, who had seen an arch-demon up close during the Fifth Blight. Now as I understand it the arch-demon utilises a blight magic spiritual attack, which isn't nearly as deadly in game as it is in Last Flight but still pretty effective. Now the red lyrium dragon seemed to be using the same attack as Corypheus, which was a red lyrium attack. I was never quite clear, what that a spiritual attack? Anyway, whilst red lyrium is blighted, that doesn't seem exactly the same thing. As for the difference between a high dragon and an Old God, well according to Arishok Sten the Tome of Koslun says that the "Old Gods were like unto dragons as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men." Now the first human kings were Dreamers, so not just mages but ultra-powerful mages; in a similar way the Old Gods were not just dragons or even high dragons but great dragons. Furthermore unless great dragons were intelligent and gifted enough to contact others through the Fade, then it seems they must have had a co-existing spirit. So Corypheus splitting his soul and putting it into the dragon would be mimicking that part of the Old God make-up but it is not clear how that relationship works. Was Corypheus able to view the world through the dragon's eyes? Is that why his dragon was at Adamant but he wasn't? That would mean he was in a safe location somewhere in a trance to maintain contact. Or was the dragon acting independently? Anyway, I didn't find the red lyrium dragon any harder to kill than some of the high dragons we encountered in the game, which it should have been if it was anywhere near the power of an arch-demon. Another weird thing is that if Corypheus was linked to his dragon, then surely when he was killed his soul should have jumped to rejoin his other half, just as happened when we killed the dragon and it returned to him? Instead it jumped to the nearest Grey Warden. Also, if the dragon was the reason we couldn't kill him, had it been around since ancient times? Because Hawke couldn't kill him and he jumped to the Grey Warden back then as well. So there seemed a lot of loose ends about that whole explanation. Hakkon did seem to give an idea of what an arch-demon is. I would imagine the Old Gods would be stronger and there is that song they give off both before and after release. I don't believe Hakkon anything like that. So another example of how Old Gods differ from normal possessed high dragons. 1. I do think sucking him into the fade did have a great deal with finally stopping him. 2. to be fair that fight really does not make a lot of sense when you get done with it. Going into it with full crafted gear and full level I've gotten through each section of the fight like within seconds. granted I am playing on normal...
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Post by telanadas on Aug 11, 2020 7:03:55 GMT
Anyway, I didn't find the red lyrium dragon any harder to kill than some of the high dragons we encountered in the game, which it should have been if it was anywhere near the power of an arch-demon. Another weird thing is that if Corypheus was linked to his dragon, then surely when he was killed his soul should have jumped to rejoin his other half, just as happened when we killed the dragon and it returned to him? Instead it jumped to the nearest Grey Warden. Also, if the dragon was the reason we couldn't kill him, had it been around since ancient times? Because Hawke couldn't kill him and he jumped to the Grey Warden back then as well. So there seemed a lot of loose ends about that whole explanation. I thought the dragon was simply a minion of Corypheus' that he directed using the blight's connected hive mind. I'm not sure Corypheus' dragon itself is ancient because if he corrupted it with red lyrium (which we know he learnt about through Bianca) then how could he be soul-linked to it anytime before this? He was clearly not using red lyrium in DA2. I think the dragon was more a symbol of his aspirations to godhood - everyone has heard of an archdemon but not necessarily seen or experienced one. Even if members of the Inquisition knew what a true archdemon was really like, I think the fact that Corypheus could even control a blighted dragon would be enough to fool the everyday person. But again, I think he must have gotten the idea for proving his godhood from somewhere, and the fact he tried using the dragon to "ascend" is further evidence to me that the old gods are linked to the elven ones. I don't think it was ever fully explained why the wardens determined it was better to imprison Corypheus than to kill him, but the fact that they imprisoned him, similar to how Solas only imprisoned the evanuris, also points to the fact the old gods are linked to the elven gods and that they already knew the secret of effective immortality in the unchanging world. Perhaps this would have been a dangerous secret to give out by the evanuris because if Corypheus had in fact succeeded, he may have been able to overpower/destroy the evanuris themselves? Exiling the wardens was probably the best case scenario for everyone because if there were any wandering around Corypheus could have easily jumped into them even if his dragon was killed. The revelation about Hakkon was interesting because it seems to be the writers trying to explain why the old gods went silent. When spirits are bound to mortal flesh they can't access the fade. "All he could do was kill" But even if this applied to the old gods it still doesn't explain how all of them were bound after the magisters entered the fade, each in their own respective prisons..it just seems too convenient. Maybe the imprisoned false gods used the sleeping dragons as a conduit between the fade and the real world. But surely Solas would have thought of this and worked out a way to block them from accessing people's dreams? There is definitely something differentiating Hakkon from the old gods though. The mystery of what Flemeth intends to do with Urthemiel's soul is one of the biggest ones. The fact that Solas says he believes the old gods and elven gods existed in the same breath indicates to me they are highly likely related in some way. But there's just too many gaps to fill into even imagine what that could entail
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Post by telanadas on Aug 11, 2020 7:08:19 GMT
Also, maybe the new map artwork has some new lore info? Some pretty interesting references to the sun and moon in there
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Post by colfoley on Aug 11, 2020 7:09:51 GMT
Also, maybe the new map artwork has some new lore info? Some pretty interesting references to the sun and moon in there is that the map from TVN?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2020 7:45:25 GMT
I do think sucking him into the fade did have a great deal with finally stopping him Yet where did the Inquisitor get that idea from? It was not what we were told was the secret to defeating him. We had spent much of the game trying to stop him entering the Fade and then apparently that was the key all the time? According to WoT2 it was thought by scholars that he would have perished in the Fade because we had completely demoralised him and "it has been written that nothing that knows doubt can survive the Fade". I'm not sure where that was written, some part of the Chant of Light that we haven't yet seen? Still, the Inquisitor must have really done their homework to come up with that idea on the spur of the moment. I repeat, that was definitely not how Morrigan explained the way to defeat him. 2. to be fair that fight really does not make a lot of sense when you get done with it. Going into it with full crafted gear and full level I've gotten through each section of the fight like within seconds. granted I am playing on normal... If you only do the main plot path then it is at least a bit challenging. I rushed through the story first run, leaving places like the Hissing Wastes until later and not killing any dragons. That meant he at least got time to throw out his various insults and the dragon did feel like a proper test. Next run I did everything before fighting him and he was a piece of cake. He never even got the chance to troll my party, I had killed so many dragons already I had got it off to a fine art and basically we were all too strong for him. Third run, my Knight Enchanter could probably have taken him down on his own with his Jedi light sabre, sorry spirit blade. According to the Wiki his dragon was only at 50% health to start with, so I suppose that could account for the ease with which we killed it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2020 7:59:58 GMT
I thought the dragon was simply a minion of Corypheus' that he directed using the blight's connected hive mind. So did I until Morrigan came up with that whole split soul thing. That was what puzzled me about the whole theory. There was no dragon in evidence when he survived Hawke killing him, just a Grey Warden on hand for him to jump to. Then Morrigan said something about there was no limit to the range that he could jump (I'm sure she said that) so it didn't matter if we had sent all the wardens out of Orlais, he could still find them. Morrigan had read Flemeth's Grimoire so it made sense she knew a bit about soul jumping. Back in DAO she said how the more alike the recipient is, then the greater the chance of success. So Grey Warden tainted, Corypheus controlling their mind so they do not oppose it, did make sense. They locked him up originally because it would seem he had such control over the minds of Wardens that none of them could actually strike him. Then Morrigan said that because he had split his soul with the dragon, killing it would (temporarily) interfere with his soul jumping ability. So I'm assuming that was only a recent thing he had done since being freed and in fact his arrogance and pride in wanting to appear a god through his control of the dragon was his downfall, which had a nice irony to it. So far so good when it comes to things making sense. Then the Inquisitor out of the blue comes up with the idea of sending him into the Fade. First time I saw this I though they actually opened a rift inside Corypheus, sort of blowing him apart from the inside, which was gruesome but final and again had a neat sort of irony to it. Then WoT2 blew that idea apart by saying we had actually sent him into the Fade, which to my mind made no sense at all. Why would we send him the one place he had always wanted to be? How could we be certain he would perish there? So perhaps it is better for me to ignore everything in WoT2, since the writers often do, and go with how I originally understood the matter, even if it wasn't actually what happened, because that at least made a degree of sense to me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2020 8:44:50 GMT
The revelation about Hakkon was interesting because it seems to be the writers trying to explain why the old gods went silent. When spirits are bound to mortal flesh they can't access the fade. I don't think this explained it. Both Wynne's spirit of faith and Anders' Justice could still access the Fade; in fact Justice is in full command in the Fade. Also the Old Gods were communicating to their faithful for hundreds, may be even thousands of years after being locked away. What seemed to block Hakkon was the nature of Ameridan's magic which was holding them in a time capsule, unable to communicate with the outside world. Now Solas' prison did seem to prevent the Creators from communicating with their faithful. The Dalish quite clearly say this is how they account for the gods no longer helping them or answering their prayers. This would seem to suggest that the Old Gods weren't entrapped by him, except of course they are on this side of the Veil rather than somewhere within it. It is even possible that the Evanuris were trapped in an in-between place, similar to the Crossroads, so effectively cut off from both the Fade and the Waking World. Alternatively, if his magic somehow made entering the Eternal City instead a gateway to the Void, that would explain how the blackness was originally on the inside and if they are locked in the Void it is not possible to contact anyone via the Fade. The Old Gods could simply have been in uthenera. According to Mihris that is how the ancients could stay in contact with their followers throughout the world. She said they could give them useful information about their enemies and even send spirits to aid them. Presumably if the ancient elves could do this, so might ancient demons inside a dragon or using a dragon form. (Of course that is basically what I think the Evanuris were originally, powerful spirits that adopted various "forms"). Anyway that would explain how the Old Gods would have originally contacted their human acolytes. With the majority of elves having gone into retreat, if you want to work with active individuals then humans were the only option, dwarves not being contactable through the Fade. So they found promising humans to work with and the humans found that making the requisite prayers and sacrifices did get tangible results, so naturally they continued with it. After all, we know that Dreamers can even kill through the Fade, so if you pray to the god to kill your enemy and that enemy dies in their sleep, you are going to be pretty impressed. Thus, whatever link the Old Gods may or may not have with the ancient elves, they were using the same process by which to communicate with their faithful and respond to their prayers, using dream sleep. I would assume, therefore, that if breaking into the Black City wasn't their aim to begin with, something about it broke their connection with the Fade and thus their communication channel. There is a curious passage in WoT timeline, where it says the Old Gods were communicating from the Black City. An errata in WoT2 corrected "Black" to "Golden" but it didn't correct the part about the communication actually coming from the City itself. That, of course, does point back more to a link with the Evanuris. Plus both human and elves have always seen the Eternal City as the home of their gods. Even the Avvar see it this way, calling it Belenas (which is very close to the elven Bellanaris which means Eternity) and believing that it was once accessible to mortals but they proved such a nuisance that the Lady of the Skies lifted it up beyond their reach. So may be the Old Gods were using the Eternal City as a sort of amplifer to project their thoughts throughout the world. Breaking into it, broke that contact they had from their prisons, leaving only the dead whispers that Corypheus could hear when he was there. May be the "song" that attracts the darkspawn and the Grey Wardens can hear is the Old Gods still trying to regain contact with their faithful but their mental projection no longer gets as far as the Fade. That still makes me feel that the Old Gods are already tainted in their prisons. This is the reason they were using the Black City rather than the ordinary Fade to make contact with mortals. Another reason to think they were already tainted is their insistence on their worshipers indulging in blood magic. This seems to be necessary to get their aid. Solas maintained that blood magic interfered with his connection to the Fade. If the Old Gods were tainted, they were probably finding it difficult to contact via the Fade. So they used the only place with a connection to the Void, the Black City, and encouraged the use of magic that also by-passed the Fade.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 11, 2020 12:45:20 GMT
Still, the Inquisitor must have really done their homework to come up with that idea on the spur of the moment. I repeat, that was definitely not how Morrigan explained the way to defeat him. yeah that was confusing for me too. I guess that means the Inquisitor could theoretically open rifts anywhere they wanted..Corypheus' body looked like it was disintegrating so maybe it's just his spirit that was rendered to the fade. Or maybe they're actually planning on bringing him back in some different form in the next game. I don't think this explained it. Both Wynne's spirit of faith and Anders' Justice could still access the Fade; in fact Justice is in full command in the Fade. Also the Old Gods were communicating to their faithful for hundreds, may be even thousands of years after being locked away. What seemed to block Hakkon was the nature of Ameridan's magic which was holding them in a time capsule, unable to communicate with the outside world. I was under the impression Hakkon "went silent" immediately after they bound the spirit and Ameridan's time magic was just what made hakkon "vanish" for 800 yrs. In fact the reason why Ameridan went to kill Hakkon in the first place was because it had gone mad and could "only kill" after they bound it, so surely it's access to the fade had something to do with it. It almost seems akin to forcible tranquility performed on spirits. Wynne and Justice do seem to counter this theory but maybe the spirits they carried came across willingly, even subconsciously. Maybe Justice didn't realise it at the time but he took up a mortal form because the Baroness had yet to be fully brought to justice. I realise it's a stretch but I don't see why they would have specifically added the bit about Hakkon without alluding to similarities with the old gods. I'm definitely behind the the black city is arlathan theory though. If it's not I will actually be disappointed considering all the foreshadowing towards this being the case. I think it is also highly likely the olds gods are already corrupted. The fact the song can be heard from the old gods prisons (supposedly) lends credence idea to this as well. The question is though, what is the thing keeping the darkspawn at bay in between blights? Is it really just a matter of digging the dragons out? That also reminds me, there was that weird blood ritual in the descent with the ritual that drained bodies of blood. Maybe the scaled ones also have something to do with the elves' dabbling in blight magic (maybe they were trying to bring the darkspawn to the bastion?)
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Post by grallon on Aug 11, 2020 13:16:30 GMT
Then the Inquisitor out of the blue comes up with the idea of sending him into the Fade. First time I saw this I though they actually opened a rift inside Corypheus, sort of blowing him apart from the inside, which was gruesome but final and again had a neat sort of irony to it. Then WoT2 blew that idea apart by saying we had actually sent him into the Fade, which to my mind made no sense at all. Why would we send him the one place he had always wanted to be? How could we be certain he would perish there? So perhaps it is better for me to ignore everything in WoT2, since the writers often do, and go with how I originally understood the matter, even if it wasn't actually what happened, because that at least made a degree of sense to me. That's exactly how I've always seen it: he opens a rift and tear the villain apart. Which indicates an impressive level of control on the Iquisitor's part by the end of the main game. This is no doubt why Solas destabilizes the Anchor by the time of Trespasser, and lure the Inquisitor to him. Not to save our lives, since we have been told several times by then, by several people, that the mark was permanent and unusable by anyone but the Inquisitor - but rather to remove a potential threat to Solas' plans.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 11, 2020 14:26:48 GMT
That's exactly how I've always seen it: he opens a rift and tear the villain apart. Which indicates an impressive level of control on the Iquisitor's part by the end of the main game. This is no doubt why Solas destabilizes the Anchor by the time of Trespasser, and lure the Inquisitor to him. Not to save our lives, since we have been told several times by then, by several people, that the mark was permanent and unusable by anyone but the Inquisitor - but rather to remove a potential threat to Solas' plans. That is a really interesting (and dark) interpretation that I never thought to consider! I always presumed Solas had good intentions by luring the Inquisitor out and "saving" them, but looking at it this way...maybe he told the Inquisitor more than he should have (that he was going to destroy the world, and that it was his moment of weakness) because he'd succeeded in eliminating the threat that was the anchor. So his pride might really have gotten the better of him by revealing his plans to them. I suppose if the Inquisitor could open rifts anywhere they could potentially walk in the fade again. I wonder if they even thought to consider trying to open a rift to a different part of the fade after Corypheus..I mean it would be crazy of course, but I think the curiosity would also be enough considering how rare of a feat it was to begin with. But on the flipside would anyone have even known about Solas or his plans if he hadn't lured the Inquisition to begin with? He could have just carried on with his ritual in the fade without telling anyone anything and no one would have been any wiser until the veil came down. Unless of course he was being hounded by the qunari, but he seemed to deal with them easily enough. Or maybe they caused more havoc behind the scenes than we thought. I also just remembered Sera does write in her journal that the Inquisitor's hand "looks bad" at the start of Trespasser, so maybe it would have imploded anyway with/without Solas' interference. But still... could have neutralised it instead of taking the arm? I know story-wise the writers wanted to get the anchor out of the picture. But evil Solas with an ulterior motive sounds like a good headcanon for my low approval Inquisitor.
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Post by grallon on Aug 11, 2020 15:10:59 GMT
I also just remembered Sera does write in her journal that the Inquisitor's hand "looks bad" at the start of Trespasser, so maybe it would have imploded anyway with/without Solas' interference. But still... could have neutralised it instead of taking the arm? I know story-wise the writers wanted to get the anchor out of the picture. But evil Solas with an ulterior motive sounds like a good headcanon for my low approval Inquisitor. I recruited Sera only once in all my playthrough, and found her so annoying that I hardly bothered following up on her and what she was doing. Therefore I was unaware of that detail. The Anchor was stable throughout the entire game and the DLCs, something like a year or a year and half in length. It began destabilizing at some point before the conclave, an itch at first, which got progressively worse as we went further along through the Elluvians. To me, Solas was always the culprit. Remember, it was his orb which created the mark, specifically to allow the bearer to enter the Fade physically. Why then would it be inherently unstable? Corypheus claims he crafted it to 'assault the heavens', which the Divine later confirmed in the Fade. But did he? Or did he simply studied it and discovered that particular 'pre-programmed' function before he tried unlocking it? You really have to wonder how Solas can ever succeed in his plans since his grasp constantly seem to exceed his reach. He says he was to weak to unlock the Orb after his long slumber. Why then didn't he just wait to have regained his strength to unlock it himself, rather than take the risk of allowing Corypheus to find and use it? But I digress. It will be a great pity not to have a final showdown between our Inquisitor and the Dread Wolf - they are natural antagonists.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2020 16:04:19 GMT
That is a really interesting (and dark) interpretation that I never thought to consider! The Anchor was stable throughout the entire game and the DLCs, something like a year or a year and half in length. I think it was a combination of factors that de-stabilised it. I think it was always programmed to re-charge but with us constantly closing rifts that kept the energy levels manageable. Then the big effort to close the rift at the end probably drained it enough, together with the odd small rift we had to deal with, that it wasn't a problem but by Trespasser it was building up again. Also when we were running through the old library section it reacted to the elven magic there and re-charged even more. However, Solas saying only he could have borne the mark and lived was simply because only he knew how to control it. I think he could have warned the Inquisitor, had he wished to, about the potential to be unstable and then explained how to keep it under control but he didn't. In one of my own stories I had my Inquisitor say it was a god-like power. That was exactly it. So as you say, Solas could never have allowed the Inquisitor to keep it. Ultimately it would have been a threat to him. So he bided his time, waiting for it to be a problem, when he could step in and appear the benevolent benefactor.
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Post by grallon on Aug 11, 2020 18:24:14 GMT
However, Solas saying only he could have borne the mark and lived was simply because only he knew how to control it. I think he could have warned the Inquisitor, had he wished to, about the potential to be unstable and then explained how to keep it under control but he didn't. In one of my own stories I had my Inquisitor say it was a god-like power. That was exactly it. So as you say, Solas could never have allowed the Inquisitor to keep it. Ultimately it would have been a threat to him. So he bided his time, waiting for it to be a problem, when he could step in and appear the benevolent benefactor. Yes, I suppose that could also be an explanation. After all, it was Solas who stabilized it in the first place, at Haven. Arg, it frustrates me to no end that we won't be able to finish that treacherous dog ourselves! Instead, we'll be saddled with unknowns who will have no stakes in this.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 11, 2020 22:41:45 GMT
However, Solas saying only he could have borne the mark and lived was simply because only he knew how to control it. I think he could have warned the Inquisitor, had he wished to, about the potential to be unstable and then explained how to keep it under control but he didn't. In one of my own stories I had my Inquisitor say it was a god-like power. That was exactly it. So as you say, Solas could never have allowed the Inquisitor to keep it. Ultimately it would have been a threat to him. So he bided his time, waiting for it to be a problem, when he could step in and appear the benevolent benefactor. Yes, I suppose that could also be an explanation. After all, it was Solas who stabilized it in the first place, at Haven. Arg, it frustrates me to no end that we won't be able to finish that treacherous dog ourselves! Instead, we'll be saddled with unknowns who will have no stakes in this. Hopefully we continue as the Inquisitor in DA4.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 12, 2020 7:02:43 GMT
That is a really interesting (and dark) interpretation that I never thought to consider! The Anchor was stable throughout the entire game and the DLCs, something like a year or a year and half in length. I think it was a combination of factors that de-stabilised it. I think it was always programmed to re-charge but with us constantly closing rifts that kept the energy levels manageable. Then the big effort to close the rift at the end probably drained it enough, together with the odd small rift we had to deal with, that it wasn't a problem but by Trespasser it was building up again. Also when we were running through the old library section it reacted to the elven magic there and re-charged even more. However, Solas saying only he could have borne the mark and lived was simply because only he knew how to control it. I think he could have warned the Inquisitor, had he wished to, about the potential to be unstable and then explained how to keep it under control but he didn't. In one of my own stories I had my Inquisitor say it was a god-like power. That was exactly it. So as you say, Solas could never have allowed the Inquisitor to keep it. Ultimately it would have been a threat to him. So he bided his time, waiting for it to be a problem, when he could step in and appear the benevolent benefactor. this does remind me of Fallassans story about him firing an arrow into the air.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 27, 2020 9:33:09 GMT
Small crazy theory here which harks back to exactly what relationship Andraste was said to have with the Maker. Now the Chantry and even Ameridan seem to regard the whole "bride of the Maker" thing as a big deal and what makes Andraste special and semi-divine. However, there is an earlier instance of this in Andraste's own culture, that of the Alamarri/Avvar, and that is Tyrdda Bright-axe.
"Tell the tale of Tyrdda Bright-Axe, mountain maker, spirit's bride:
Now it is easy to miss this reference and so when the saga mentions her "leaf-eared lover", that this is a physical person but it also says she is the "laughing lady of the skies". Well the Lady of the Skies is an Avvar goddess and was likely an Alamarri one too since the Avvar were an offshoot of the Alamarri and we know from the Avvar that their gods are essentially just spirits of varying power. So the possibilities are that the Lady of the Skies was called into a mortal vessel, simply took on a mortal form or in fact never left the Fade and they enjoyed an intense spiritual relationship. Now if the first of these, the mortal vessel would have been an elf because of the "leaf-eared" reference but there were not likely to be many of those around at that time and in any case, since Tyrdda was a human, why not a human lover? Which is also the argument against the spirit simply taking a tangible form. However, if the Lady in the Fade took the form of an elf then as Tyrdda might will have no experience of elves, the only way she could describe her Fade lover was "leaf-eared".
Tyrdda was a mage and could well have been a Dreamer as well, so able to enter the Fade at will and shape it to a large extent. We know that Solas can make it appear very real when we are there with him (I'm sure it was him doing this and not the anchor) and much of our romance with him is actually conducted in the Fade, which does seem very real to the PC. Even this section can be explained as a Fade dream.
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dwarf-Friend Chieftain, with her leaf-eared lover lay, Woke she did to love-sweat morning, lover gone in light of day. Dream-words whispered, spoken soft, still the silence crushed and crashing, Dead her tribe, unless a child could keep her line in warrior fashion.
Why would her lover be gone when daylight came? Why would the lover's advice be described as "Dream-words". Unless that lover was a spirit with whom she lay with in the Fade. That would seem confirmed by the fact that she is described as a "spirit's bride." The Lady wanted to nurture the line of Tyrdda, which was not going to be possible without a child to follow her, so she encouraged her to wed/bed Hendir and so gave birth to the daughter that the Lady had already named Aval'var, from whom the tribe took their name. Then after many years, Tyrdda finally succumbed to age and re-joined her lover in the skies/Fade.
The reason I mention this is that if this was something recognised among the Avvar at least, and Maferath was an Avvar, then may be Andraste wasn't simply praying for deliverance but her song was specifically intended to try and attract a god who could give her the aid and advice that the Lady of the Skies gave to Tyrdda, for which you needed to be a "spirit's bride". Just a thought.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 27, 2020 22:25:39 GMT
My crazy theory: DA4 is going to be good.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 3, 2020 8:44:31 GMT
So in the realm of the Crazy Theory I am not sure I have gone into this too much...though I have touched on elements of this theory before. So basically as background 'singing' in Dragon Age has always been pretty important/ mysterious/ even a portent of doom. References to singing in general might be the second most important and esoteric theme of the series next to the Blight:(as an aside now I am having trouble remembering all the examples I was going to use ) -Dumat 'called/ sang' to Corypheus and co and got them to go to the Black City. -The Old Gods call to the Darkspawn until they find them and release them starting a Blight with an Archdemon. -The Blight has a sound to it. -Lyrium has a sound song to it. -In Here Lies the Abyss there is something said to be 'waiting' in the Red Lyrium and other references of such by Cole. -Even Flemeth herself talked about 'alas as long as the music plays...we dance. -And according to Chantry orthodoxy when the Chant of Light is sung from the whole world the maker will come back to his creation. ...Which would seem to fit the pattern. So what if 'the Maker' or at least the entity that the Chantry has gotten confused with the Maker ends up being the absolute worse and biggest bad of the series? Granted there are a few issues here like the series would devolve into a 'god off' instead of the much more interesting corruption versus preservation theme we have seen... but it is something I have been thinking about.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 3, 2020 9:08:36 GMT
...Which would seem to fit the pattern. So what if 'the Maker' or at least the entity that the Chantry has gotten confused with the Maker ends up being the absolute worse and biggest bad of the series? Granted there are a few issues here like the series would devolve into a 'god off' instead of the much more interesting corruption versus preservation theme we have seen... but it is something I have been thinking about. Don't forget the bit about Andraste singing to get the Maker's attention. Song seems a major theme in this universe. Now this occurred to me in the past few days as well? It started when someone asked whether Flemeth was trying to avoid someone's attention when she was smuggled to the Freemarches in DA2. The question was asked, could there be a third person, other than Solas and Flemeth? Well of course the idol depicts three people. Allegedly the central one is comforting the front one but what about the one round the back? Then I realised that for a world that has a parody of real world monotheistic religion, with spirits (angels) and demons (fallen angels), it is missing one vital element, the Devil, or Lucifer or Satan, call him what you will, the leader of the demons, Prince of Darkness. In Dalish mythology they have one, it is Fen'Harel, once brother to the gods, who betrayed them, except of course he now says that was not done so he could rule the Fade, as the Dalish suggest, but for a variety of reasons. However, whatever his motivations, he does not feature in the Andrastrian religion, unless he really is the Maker she spoke with. In the Chant of Light, the Maker is the Wellspring of Creation, he is the life force and the symbol associated with him is the Sun, the source of light and life. Whereas the Blight is the Darkness, the source of corruption, disease and death. So either the Maker became corrupted at some point, becoming his own antithesis, which would fit the idea put forward by Solas that a demon is merely a spirit forced to do something opposed to its nature, or there is an ultimate big bad out there that is still to be encountered that was the original cause of the Blight in direct opposition to the Maker. Or there is no Maker and no Devil, just the beings we are able to interact with and the opposite of the Wellspring, the source of life in the Fade, is the Void, the source of the Darkness.
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