I think a dwarf would be slightly thicker (thicc-er?) around the waist.
Yeah. Too lean, too long. Definitely doesn't strike me as dwarf-proportioned. Just imagine where her legs would end...
At the end of the day though, it could just be an artistic fub, and it is a dwarf... but that's definitely not my takeaway from the image.
Good point about the legs. You can just see the top of one knee. Obviously, her whole lower leg extends from there about 24 scaled inches. If she were dwarf height, her feet should be just beneath the edge of the image, her knee above the cutoff point, and tapered much differently.
OMG, if we're going to see the catapulted qunari...!
In fact I can totally see it happening, especially if they're going to try and scale Minrathous' walls.
As the film clip shows, for this to work you have to have very gentle catapults and conveniently placed wagons of hay inside the walls that you just happen to hit correctly. So, for realism's sake, I really hope they don't have catapulted Qunari (or any other race) because it just wouldn't work in reality if you want the people to get to the other side alive.
Armies have been known to catapult dead bodies to damage morale and diseased bodies in the hope of spreading it inside the walls but the body is then just a dead (literally) weight like any other missile they choose to aim at the walls.
I thought the flying aravels in Last Flight were absurd and lore breaking (the sails on normal aravels help speed them along the ground, not through the air), so if they introduce the power of flight to anything other than species that can do it naturally or shapeshifters, I shall be extremely disappointed. (I didn't like it for Corypheus either).
In the comic series, Deception, when the Qunari are invading the city, one of the leading assailants is shown in exactly the same pose as the one on the cover. They haven't been shot over the walls but seem to have been hyped up to great feats of athleticism (possibly by red lyrium but may be just specialist Qunari training).
I thought the flying aravels in Last Flight were absurd and lore breaking (the sails on normal aravels help speed them along the ground, not through the air),
But that only works on flat ground. A Blight-ravaged war zone landscape isn't going to be flat. That's why the Dalish aravels in DAI were stuck....they couldn't travel over the rough ground. If they were able to float instead, no problem.
OMG, if we're going to see the catapulted qunari...!
In fact I can totally see it happening, especially if they're going to try and scale Minrathous' walls.
As the film clip shows, for this to work you have to have very gentle catapults and conveniently placed wagons of hay inside the walls that you just happen to hit correctly. So, for realism's sake, I really hope they don't have catapulted Qunari (or any other race) because it just wouldn't work in reality if you want the people to get to the other side alive.
Armies have been known to catapult dead bodies to damage morale and diseased bodies in the hope of spreading it inside the walls but the body is then just a dead (literally) weight like any other missile they choose to aim at the walls.
I thought the flying aravels in Last Flight were absurd and lore breaking (the sails on normal aravels help speed them along the ground, not through the air), so if they introduce the power of flight to anything other than species that can do it naturally or shapeshifters, I shall be extremely disappointed. (I didn't like it for Corypheus either).
I know one words that can deal with a problem of landing: ENCHANTMENT!
...And I bet a mountain of gold that Dalish aravels are based on flying elvhen ships. It just makes sense especially that we know (per Solas) that entire palaces floated in the air in Arlathan.
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
...And I bet a mountain of gold that Dalish aravels are based on flying elvhen ships. It just makes sense especially that we know (per Solas) that entire palaces floated in the air in Arlathan.
Probably floating in that in-between space that is really close to the Fade, plus back in the day there was no Veil so there were many things that were possible then that aren't now. Still, I see where you are coming from with this. May be Dalish discovered ancient murals depicting aravels with sails and so stuck some on their own without realising they were meant to be for actual flight rather than acting as land surfers.
they couldn't travel over the rough ground. If they were able to float instead, no problem.
Which is exactly why the idea in Last Flight didn't match what we knew in game. If it was possible to enchant the aravels to make them fly over the rough ground then surely the clan we met in the Exalted Plains would have done just that.
Mind you, Dorian made some quip about floating cows over Minrathous so it would be beyond the bounds of possibility that they decided to introduce some form of flying ship in the future.
I know one words that can deal with a problem of landing: ENCHANTMENT!
I just feel that if anyone could have developed such an idea it would be Tevinter because it would require a number of mages working together and there seems no evidence of them having done so. There is a Levitate spell but that only works on inanimate objects.
Enchantment by a certain savant dwarf might be used on an individual to help them gain access somewhere but it is unlikely with more than one or in the heat of battle.
Still, red lyrium has been shown in the past to allow ordinary mortals to do super human feats (Meredith) so if it were an external influence rather than simple training, it is likely it would be attributed to that. In fact it does seem the go to response to any challenge that something should not be possible. Look at Corypheus levitating mountains.
Which is exactly why the idea in Last Flight didn't match what we knew in game. If it was possible to enchant the aravels to make them fly over the rough ground then surely the clan we met in the Exalted Plains would have done just that.
Why? It was a novel idea in Last Flight and only borne out of a need for speed, basically. It also required A LOT of magic. The only mage in the DAI clan that we see is the keeper. Even if he thought to do it, and knew how, he might not have enough power.
Also, griffins pulled them in Last Flight; they didn't sail on their own.
...And I bet a mountain of gold that Dalish aravels are based on flying elvhen ships. It just makes sense especially that we know (per Solas) that entire palaces floated in the air in Arlathan.
Probably floating in that in-between space that is really close to the Fade, plus back in the day there was no Veil so there were many things that were possible then that aren't now. Still, I see where you are coming from with this. May be Dalish discovered ancient murals depicting aravels with sails and so stuck some on their own without realising they were meant to be for actual flight rather than acting as land surfers.
We see chunks of mountains floating when we fight Corypheus in DAI (also, you did mention flyingh cows, plus we see depictions of Minrathous where large parts of buildings are held up by magic) - lifting a few aravels with blood magic shouldn't be a feat impossible to accomplish in a Veiled world.
Which is exactly why the idea in Last Flight didn't match what we knew in game. If it was possible to enchant the aravels to make them fly over the rough ground then surely the clan we met in the Exalted Plains would have done just that.
There's no reason to think that at all. Why do you think there's anyone in the clan that can match Isseya in power or knowledge how to use magic? She was a Grey Warden and Grey Wardens are usually more liberal magic users (esp. blood magic) than most people and that includes Dalish clans. Plus, griffons were used to pull aravels (because it's one thing to make things float and another to propel them. We know this since we were able to lift balloons and then blimps in the air).
Last Edit: Jul 26, 2019 20:05:02 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Why? It was a novel idea in Last Flight and only borne out of a need for speed, basically. It also required A LOT of magic. The only mage in the DAI clan that we see is the keeper. Even if he thought to do it, and knew how, he might not have enough power.
Also, griffins pulled them in Last Flight; they didn't sail on their own.
There's no reason to think that at all. Why do you think there's anyone in the clan that can match Isseya in power or knowledge how to use magic?
I base my assertion on what is actually stated by Isseya in the book as to where she got the idea in the first place. When she suggests using aravels, Amadis is dismissive of the idea.
"You mean landships? Like the Dalish use? Great big wagons that fly through the trees. They aren't real."
"They are real," Isseya said, "and it's magic that lets them pass through the forest........
Calien pushed his hood back completely. "Do you know how to enchant an aravel?"
"No," Isseya admitted. "I'm not a Dalish. I don't have their lore. But we know it can be done, so we should be able to find our own way."
So the implication is clear. Isseya is aware that the Dalish landships can do this, pulled by halla, so what she is suggesting is not an entirely novel idea for Thedas, just for people not part of the Dalish clans. I must admit that it came as a complete surprise to me. In fact previous information given about the sails on aravels suggested they were more decorative than functional, used to display the clan banners. As I say, if they did have a practical purpose, I thought that the sails on the aravels were to help propel them along the ground, like land surfers, so making it easier on the halla, but it had never occurred to me that the Dalish were using magic to ease their passage by levitating them above the ground. Yet, clearly Isseya is not just going on hearsay but has actually witnessed them doing this, hence her insisting that "we know it can be done."
Last Edit: Jul 26, 2019 20:43:58 GMT by gervaise21
Why? It was a novel idea in Last Flight and only borne out of a need for speed, basically. It also required A LOT of magic. The only mage in the DAI clan that we see is the keeper. Even if he thought to do it, and knew how, he might not have enough power.
Also, griffins pulled them in Last Flight; they didn't sail on their own.
There's no reason to think that at all. Why do you think there's anyone in the clan that can match Isseya in power or knowledge how to use magic?
I base my assertion on what is actually stated by Isseya in the book as to where she got the idea in the first place. When she suggests using aravels, Amadis is dismissive of the idea.
"You mean landships? Like the Dalish use? Great big wagons that fly through the trees. They aren't real."
"They are real," Isseya said, "and it's magic that lets them pass through the forest........
Calien pushed his hood back completely. "Do you know how to enchant an aravel?"
"No," Isseya admitted. "I'm not a Dalish. I don't have their lore. But we know it can be done, so we should be able to find our own way."
So the implication is clear. Isseya is aware that the Dalish landships can do this, pulled by halla, so what she is suggesting is not an entirely novel idea for Thedas, just for people not part of the Dalish clans. I must admit that it came as a complete surprise to me. In fact previous information given about the sails on aravels suggested they were more decorative than functional, used to display the clan banners. As I say, if they did have a practical purpose, I thought that the sails on the aravels were to help propel them along the ground, like land surfers, so making it easier on the halla, but it had never occurred to me that the Dalish were using magic to ease their passage by levitating them above the ground. Yet, clearly Isseya is not just going on hearsay but has actually witnessed them doing this, hence her insisting that "we know it can be done."
"But we know it can be done, so we should be able to find our own way."
Whatever Isseya has witnessed or heard, her method is NOT one used by the Dalish. From the excerpt it's quite apparent that she merely uses whatever she's heard or witnessed to push her idea and make it a reality.
As I said before - there's no reason to think that the Dalish overall have knowledge to make their aravels float. Some clans somewhere may have the knowledge to have floating aravels, maybe? But Isseya has used a novel method to lift her makeshift aravels off the ground and used gryphons to move them about.
Last Edit: Jul 26, 2019 22:37:16 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Why? It was a novel idea in Last Flight and only borne out of a need for speed, basically. It also required A LOT of magic. The only mage in the DAI clan that we see is the keeper. Even if he thought to do it, and knew how, he might not have enough power.
Also, griffins pulled them in Last Flight; they didn't sail on their own.
There's no reason to think that at all. Why do you think there's anyone in the clan that can match Isseya in power or knowledge how to use magic?
I base my assertion on what is actually stated by Isseya in the book as to where she got the idea in the first place. When she suggests using aravels, Amadis is dismissive of the idea.
"You mean landships? Like the Dalish use? Great big wagons that fly through the trees. They aren't real."
"They are real," Isseya said, "and it's magic that lets them pass through the forest........
Calien pushed his hood back completely. "Do you know how to enchant an aravel?"
"No," Isseya admitted. "I'm not a Dalish. I don't have their lore. But we know it can be done, so we should be able to find our own way."
So the implication is clear. Isseya is aware that the Dalish landships can do this, pulled by halla, so what she is suggesting is not an entirely novel idea for Thedas, just for people not part of the Dalish clans. I must admit that it came as a complete surprise to me. In fact previous information given about the sails on aravels suggested they were more decorative than functional, used to display the clan banners. As I say, if they did have a practical purpose, I thought that the sails on the aravels were to help propel them along the ground, like land surfers, so making it easier on the halla, but it had never occurred to me that the Dalish were using magic to ease their passage by levitating them above the ground. Yet, clearly Isseya is not just going on hearsay but has actually witnessed them doing this, hence her insisting that "we know it can be done."
Using magic to "pass through the forest" doesn't mean they are floating.
If they are traveling in a forest, wind isn't going to help them move because the trees will block the wind. They will have to use magic or pull them the old fashioned way.
At no point is anyone here confirming they fly. Isseya is only saying the aravels are real, maybe because she's seen them? That part isn't clear from the excerpt either.
But again, just because Dalish 400 years ago in the Free Marches maybe knew how to float them, that doesn't mean every Dalish everywhere knows, or even can. Dalish clans back then may also have had more mages around to help with the effort. I seriously doubt the Keeper in Exalted Plains would be able to do it by himself, even if he knew how.
As I said before - there's no reason to think that the Dalish overall have knowledge to make their aravels float. Some clans somewhere may have the knowledge to have floating aravels, maybe? But Isseya has used a novel method to lift her makeshift aravels off the ground and used gryphons to move them about.
At no point is anyone here confirming they fly. Isseya is only saying the aravels are real, maybe because she's seen them? That part isn't clear from the excerpt either.
Thedas has caravans, wagons and carts that people everywhere use, so why would the Dalish having aravels (essentially caravans) be significant in rescuing the people of Wycombe? The problem they have is that the Freemarches are swarming with darkspawn so evacuating them by caravan on the ground just won't do and they do not have enough ships to get them away by sea. This is the problem that causes Isseya to have a light bulb moment and suggest aravels. It is not the fact that aravels exist that is important; it is the fact that the Dalish use magic to levitate them above the ground. What Isseya does is then translate that into raising them higher off the ground, which is possible to maintain because they have gryphons instead of halla to pull them.
If the implication wasn't meant to be that the Dalish have floating aravels, why mention them at all? Isseya is a mage, Calien is a mage and levitate is a spell found in the Core Rule Book, so why not just have the mages suggesting that if you can lift smaller objects with magic, then perhaps they could lift larger ones as well? If the idea to use gryphons to pull them is inspired by other beasts of burden, they could point to horses or oxen.
After they had built their first proto-type aravel, Isseya reflects "Their aravels would never float smoothly through the forests as the Dalish ones did...." Once again the idea is reinforced that the Dalish aravels float above the ground and this was the inspiration for Isseya.
This is why it so puzzled me Isseya making that declaration about the Dalish. It had never previously been suggested the Dalish used magic to make their aravels cross the landscape, whether in forests or across plains. They simply used halla in the same way as other people use horses or oxen.
However, there is a Dalish nursery rhyme in WoT2 called Passing By, which is apparently sung to Dalish children in order to teach them how to prepare and drive an aravel. There are several mentions of topsail, mainsail and sails generally, so clearly the sails are functional but that would still be appropriate to land ships that stay on the ground. However, there is a line "Now we fly on wheels and wings". I realise they could just be speaking metaphorically but Halla do not have wings and if they are raising them above the ground with magic, then that would be literal wings.
Regardless, Isseya was inspired to her idea by what the Dalish do. It is because their aravels appear to have been moved by magic that she is confident that they can do the same. If Dalish were doing this back during the 4th Blight, even if it was something originally only done by one clan (very convenient that Isseya happened to see that one), there has been sufficient time for the clan to have passed on their knowledge via the Arlathven. If Isseya and 3 other mages were able to raise a flotilla of 20 boats with their magic, that makes 5 aravels per mage. Thus, it should be possible for a Keeper to do so with the smaller aravels serving a clan of around 50 individuals (the number given for the clan in Masked Empire), even if they restricted themselves to levitating only a few of the heavier aravels (like the one with their food stores or extra weapons). It also would make sense of the necessity of having at least one mage per clan because otherwise their aravels would be land bound.
Returning to the topic. I wonder why they chose those particular individuals for the cover. Is it to show the major factions and storylines that will feature in Tevinter. Qunari invasion, Grey Warden civil war, Elven uprising and Dwarven affairs? (Can't really tell if the archer is a human of Dwarf)
Returning to the topic. I wonder why they chose those particular individuals for the cover. Is it to show the major factions and storylines that will feature in Tevinter. Qunari invasion, Grey Warden civil war, Elven uprising and Dwarven affairs? (Can't really tell if the archer is a human of Dwarf)
I'm not sure if these are characters we'll follow or whether they are tied to any specific events or situations that you mention, but I think they are meant to represent how many different stories from different background will be in the anthology.
Also, I suspect that these may be outsider stories - or at least stories of people who aren't necessarily the Vintiest Vints.
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
As I said before - there's no reason to think that the Dalish overall have knowledge to make their aravels float. Some clans somewhere may have the knowledge to have floating aravels, maybe? But Isseya has used a novel method to lift her makeshift aravels off the ground and used gryphons to move them about.
At no point is anyone here confirming they fly. Isseya is only saying the aravels are real, maybe because she's seen them? That part isn't clear from the excerpt either.
Thedas has caravans, wagons and carts that people everywhere use, so why would the Dalish having aravels (essentially caravans) be significant in rescuing the people of Wycombe? The problem they have is that the Freemarches are swarming with darkspawn so evacuating them by caravan on the ground just won't do and they do not have enough ships to get them away by sea. This is the problem that causes Isseya to have a light bulb moment and suggest aravels. It is not the fact that aravels exist that is important; it is the fact that the Dalish use magic to levitate them above the ground. What Isseya does is then translate that into raising them higher off the ground, which is possible to maintain because they have gryphons instead of halla to pull them.
Well there you go - that's the entirety of relevance of Dalish aravels: Isseya merely uses it to push her idea. Whether the aravels really floated or not is irrelevant. What matters is that she has a viable idea in a time of need and she believes it can be done.
(also - you're asking what's the relevance of aravels compared to other caravans? It's simple - you look at aravels and you think they they'd make much more sense on water or even in air than they are on ground, compared to other landbound vehicles. Also - the shape of a boat also helps to cut through the air more effectively, if we're talking pure design perspective; plus boats are usually bigger than wagons or carts, hence they can take more people. All of this is probably why Isseya had a lightbulb moment in the first place)
If the implication wasn't meant to be that the Dalish have floating aravels, why mention them at all? Isseya is a mage, Calien is a mage and levitate is a spell found in the Core Rule Book, so why not just have the mages suggesting that if you can lift smaller objects with magic, then perhaps they could lift larger ones as well? If the idea to use gryphons to pull them is inspired by other beasts of burden, they could point to horses or oxen.
Because it gives her outlandish-but-maybe-viable idea in a tight spot some sort of legitimacy. She can say that she didn't pull it out of nowhere. Have you never seen or heard about people who used similar argument to push their limited time or resources to try? Isseya gambled and the gamble has paid off.
After they had built their first proto-type aravel, Isseya reflects "Their aravels would never float smoothly through the forests as the Dalish ones did...." Once again the idea is reinforced that the Dalish aravels float above the ground and this was the inspiration for Isseya.
This is why it so puzzled me Isseya making that declaration about the Dalish. It had never previously been suggested the Dalish used magic to make their aravels cross the landscape, whether in forests or across plains. They simply used halla in the same way as other people use horses or oxen.
Isseya is not the first elf who has a very idealized picture of the Dalish and isn't the first elf we meet who has pushed that idealized picture on others. Heck, a considerable portion of ToM was about Briala shaking off the idea that the Dalish are as special as they were in her mind.
However, there is a Dalish nursery rhyme in WoT2 called Passing By, which is apparently sung to Dalish children in order to teach them how to prepare and drive an aravel. There are several mentions of topsail, mainsail and sails generally, so clearly the sails are functional but that would still be appropriate to land ships that stay on the ground. However, there is a line "Now we fly on wheels and wings". I realise they could just be speaking metaphorically but Halla do not have wings and if they are raising them above the ground with magic, then that would be literal wings.
Regardless, Isseya was inspired to her idea by what the Dalish do. It is because their aravels appear to have been moved by magic that she is confident that they can do the same. If Dalish were doing this back during the 4th Blight, even if it was something originally only done by one clan (very convenient that Isseya happened to see that one), there has been sufficient time for the clan to have passed on their knowledge via the Arlathven.
I think you are way overestimating what Arlathvens are or can do for propagation of knowledge between clans. If they did, the Dalish wouldn't be so different between one another.
We know since DAO - from internal elven sources - that even among themselves elves joke that clans go their separate ways because the leaders can't stand one another and most Arlathvens either start or end with furious shouting.
You think that such atmosphere fosters exchange of ideas or doesn't make clans clam up about whatever secret knowledge gives them an edge?
Nevermind that we don't know whether indeed all Dalish clans the ever exist can take part in Arlathvens. This isn't XXI century where they can just book a flight or a train ticket. There are realities of distance and moving whole mobile villages of people and most of it done while trying to avoid humans or other dangers. And what about those clans that DON'T want to take part in Arlathvens?
Let's also not ignore the reality of the fact that even if somebody has passed the knowledge it doesn't mean that any other clan has means to implement this magic technology to realistically use it.
If Isseya and 3 other mages were able to raise a flotilla of 20 boats with their magic, that makes 5 aravels per mage. Thus, it should be possible for a Keeper to do so with the smaller aravels serving a clan of around 50 individuals (the number given for the clan in Masked Empire), even if they restricted themselves to levitating only a few of the heavier aravels (like the one with their food stores or extra weapons). It also would make sense of the necessity of having at least one mage per clan because otherwise their aravels would be land bound.
You and I both know that no mage is alike in terms of power. And Isseya is both Grey Warden and a blood mage.
I can definitely see some powerful Keepers or Firsts occasionally lifting singular aravels in a tight spot (if every mage in our party, including Inky, can lift the big-ass metal grating in Coracavus without breaking a sweat then some other skillful mages probably can lift something as heavy too), but given that we've only heard of floating aravels and never saw one in any clan we visited mans that it simply ain't something many/any clans do.
Also, Isseya and and her fellow mages use such aravels only during an emergency. And their floating boats are makeshift, so they are less concerned about them after they serve their role. A nomadic tribe like the Dalish one has to rely on aravels constantly and there are less resources to keep them in shape. You think the Keeper would even risk lifting them off the ground or have the strength to do everything else clan needs AND keep them afloat - when we know that clans don't just experience a surplus of mages, but deficiency of them as well, just like was the case with Sabrae clan?
It's like the whole Seeker-Templar issue we once discussed - if Seekers are a safer and more reliable choice then why did Chantry pick Templars? Well, because Templars are, effectively, a cheaper solution. Wheels are also cheaper than magic... and have also less of a chance of attracting said Templars to Dalish clans.
Honestly, I think there may be too much overthinking of this. The aravels are likely an echo of floating boats of Elvenhan. Whatever memory of them got conflated and appropriated to the Dalish. Such things happened. Then Isseya remembered reading or hearing or seeing something (maybe even a mural) and used that knowledge to push her idea, which she effectively implemented thanks to Grey Warden resources.
And I'd like to point out that despite many, many, maaaaaaaany more people witnessing or even surviving thanks to these makeshift aravels... none seem to have thought it's a good idea to replicate them (or never got the idea off the ground) - and that's despite floating modes of transportation being useful to absolutely everyone: traders, military and so on. Yet not anyone, not even the Grey Wardens, use this technology DESPITE us knowing 100% that they have a working method. Dunno - maybe we'll see something like that in Tevinter, but something tells me that even there it's rare.
That means that, in this day and age as is 400 years ago, this thing is possible, but probably way too resource-heavy and difficult to apply in day-to-day use.
Last Edit: Feb 22, 2020 5:31:43 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Thedas has caravans, wagons and carts that people everywhere use, so why would the Dalish having aravels (essentially caravans) be significant in rescuing the people of Wycombe? The problem they have is that the Freemarches are swarming with darkspawn so evacuating them by caravan on the ground just won't do and they do not have enough ships to get them away by sea. This is the problem that causes Isseya to have a light bulb moment and suggest aravels. It is not the fact that aravels exist that is important; it is the fact that the Dalish use magic to levitate them above the ground. What Isseya does is then translate that into raising them higher off the ground, which is possible to maintain because they have gryphons instead of halla to pull them.
Well there you go - that's the entirety of relevance of Dalish aravels: Isseya merely uses it to push her idea. Whether the aravels really floated or not is irrelevant. What matters is that she has a viable idea in a time of need and she believes it can be done.
(also - you're asking what's the relevance of aravels compared to other caravans? It's simple - you look at aravels and you think they they'd make much more sense on water or even in air than they are on ground, compared to other landbound vehicles. Also - the shape of boats also helps to cut through the air more effectively, if we're talking pure design perspective, plus boats are usually bigger than wagons or carts, hence they can take more people. All of this is probably why Isseya had a lightbulb moment in the first place)
If the implication wasn't meant to be that the Dalish have floating aravels, why mention them at all? Isseya is a mage, Calien is a mage and levitate is a spell found in the Core Rule Book, so why not just have the mages suggesting that if you can lift smaller objects with magic, then perhaps they could lift larger ones as well? If the idea to use gryphons to pull them is inspired by other beasts of burden, they could point to horses or oxen.
Because it gives her outlandish-but-may-be-viable idea in a tight spot some sort of legitimacy. She can say that she didn't pull it out of nowhere. Have you never seen or heard about people who used similar argument to push their limited time or resources to try? Isseya gambled and the gamble has paid off.
After they had built their first proto-type aravel, Isseya reflects "Their aravels would never float smoothly through the forests as the Dalish ones did...." Once again the idea is reinforced that the Dalish aravels float above the ground and this was the inspiration for Isseya.
This is why it so puzzled me Isseya making that declaration about the Dalish. It had never previously been suggested the Dalish used magic to make their aravels cross the landscape, whether in forests or across plains. They simply used halla in the same way as other people use horses or oxen.
Isseya is not the first elf who has a very idealized picture of the Dalish and isn't the first elf we meet who has pushed that idealized picture on others. Heck, a considerable portion of ToM was about Briala shaking off the idea that the Dalish are as special as they were in her mind.
However, there is a Dalish nursery rhyme in WoT2 called Passing By, which is apparently sung to Dalish children in order to teach them how to prepare and drive an aravel. There are several mentions of topsail, mainsail and sails generally, so clearly the sails are functional but that would still be appropriate to land ships that stay on the ground. However, there is a line "Now we fly on wheels and wings". I realise they could just be speaking metaphorically but Halla do not have wings and if they are raising them above the ground with magic, then that would be literal wings.
Regardless, Isseya was inspired to her idea by what the Dalish do. It is because their aravels appear to have been moved by magic that she is confident that they can do the same. If Dalish were doing this back during the 4th Blight, even if it was something originally only done by one clan (very convenient that Isseya happened to see that one), there has been sufficient time for the clan to have passed on their knowledge via the Arlathven.
I think you are way overestimating what Arlathvens are or can do for propagation of knowledge between clans. If they did, the Dalish wouldn't be so different between one another.
We know since DAO - from internal elven sources - that even among themselves elves joke that clans go their separate ways because the leaders can't stand one another and most Arlathvens either start or end with furious shouting.
You think that such atmosphere fosters exchange of ideas or doesn't make clans clam up about whatever secret knowledge gives them an edge?
Never mind that we don't know whether indeed all Dalish clans the ever exist can take part in Arlathvens. This isn't XXI century where they can just book a flight or a train ticket. There are realities of distance and moving whole mobile villages of people and most of it done while trying to avoid humans or other dangers. And what about those clans that DON'T want to take part in Arlathvens?
Let's also not ignore the reality of he fact that even if somebody has passed the knowledge it doesn't mean that any other clan has means to implement this magic technology to realistically use it.
If Isseya and 3 other mages were able to raise a flotilla of 20 boats with their magic, that makes 5 aravels per mage. Thus, it should be possible for a Keeper to do so with the smaller aravels serving a clan of around 50 individuals (the number given for the clan in Masked Empire), even if they restricted themselves to levitating only a few of the heavier aravels (like the one with their food stores or extra weapons). It also would make sense of the necessity of having at least one mage per clan because otherwise their aravels would be land bound.
You an I both know that no mage is alike in terms of power. And Isseya is a Grey Warden and a blood mage.
I can definitely see some powerful Keepers or Firsts occasionally lifting singular aravels in a tight spot (if every mage in our party, including Inky, can lift the big-ass metal crate in Coracavus without breaking a sweat then some other skillful mages probably can too), but given that we've only heard of floating aravels and never saw one in any clan we visited mans that it simply ain't something many/any clans do.
Also, Isseya and and her fellow mages also use such aravels only during an emergency. And their floating boats are makeshift, so they are less concerned by them. A nomadic tribe like the Dalish one has to rely on aravels constantly and there are less resources to keep them in shape. You think the Keeper would even risk lifting them off the ground or have the strength to do everything else clan needs AND keep them afloat - when we know that clans don't just experience a surplus of mages, but deficiency of them as well, just like was the case with Sabrae clan?
It's like the whole Seeker-Templar issue we once discussed - if Seekers are a safer and more reliable why did Chantry pick Templars? Well, because Templars are, effectively, a cheaper solution. Wheels are also cheaper than magic... and have also less of a chance of attracting said Templars to Dalish clans.
Honestly, I think there may be too much overthinking of this. The aravels are likely an echo of floating boats of Elvenhan. Whatever memory of them got conflated and appropriated to the Dalish. Such things happened. Then Isseya remembered reading or hearing or seeing something (maybe even a mural) and used that knowledge to push her idea, which she effectively implemented thanks to Grey Warden resources.
And I'd like to point out that despite many, many, maaaaaaaany more people witnessing or even surviving thanks to these makeshift aravels never seem to have thought it's a good idea to replicate them (or never got the idea off the ground) - and that's despite floating modes of transportation being useful to absolutely everyone: traders, military and so on. Yet not anyone, not even the Grey Wardens, use this technology DESPITE us knowing 100% that they have a working method. Dunno - maybe we'll see something like that in Tevinter, but something tells me that even there it's rare.
That means that, in this day and age as is 400 years ago, this thing is possible, but probably way too resource-heavy and difficult to apply in day-to-day use.
you also have to consider that normal people severely outnumber mages...if there is a reason that this isn't used regularly... it's that.
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Then answer this: if they are meant to float, why do they have so many big wheels on them?
Landing gear? Isseya's "aravels" also had wheels on them despite originally being boats.
However, I'd say the real answer would be that the design of aravels was always as landships with no intention by the original writers they should be anything other than firmly land bound. Then the writer of the novel introduced this idea for a heroic rescue and the overseers at Bioware didn't see a problem with it, despite the fact that you would think if Isseya had effected such a rescue it would have been mentioned somewhere before now and it might have been used against the Qunari when they invaded, plus it messed with what we had previously been told about the Dalish.
To be honest the Last Flight didn't really fit with the rest of the game world and the writer didn't seem aware of historical timelines, with Garahel making a joke about sleeping with a Qunari when they didn't appear in Thedas until 100 years after the 4th Blight, nor the Warden plotline in DAI allegedly affecting both Ferelden and Orlais, whereas in the novel Ferelden Wardens were operating normally.
Well there you go - that's the entirety of relevance of Dalish aravels: Isseya merely uses it to push her idea. Whether the aravels really floated or not is irrelevant. What matters is that she has a viable idea in a time of need and she believes it can be done.
Of course whether aravels really floated or not is irrelevant to the plot as written. What I was arguing is that it is clearly implied that the Dalish do use levitation magic or something similar on their aravels according the Isseya in the novel but this seems contrary to everything we know about aravels in game.
I'm not saying it should be regarded as part of the lore of Thedas that they do this but seeing as they introduced the idea in a novel and you also said that you thought it was likely something the ancient elves did, then all I am saying is that according to the novel the Dalish are already aware of this.
I think you are way overestimating what Arlathvens are or can do for propagation of knowledge between clans. If they did, the Dalish wouldn't be so different between one another.
No, they have changed the relevance of the Arlathvhen since DAO and World of Thedas 1. It specifically says that the massive 10 year gathering of the clans is where "lore keepers exchange stories and knowledge.....old ways of the elves are celebrated... sad lessons of the destruction of both Arlathan and the Dales are also recounted and discussed. It is an important time for the clans, a show of unity for an otherwise isolated people." The Dalish regard one of their main purposes in life is to keep the old customs alive and recover as much of their ancient history as they can. Sharing what individual clans have discovered over the decade since the last Arlathvhen is an important part of this. Now I can see the logistics of clans travelling from all over Thedas doesn't really work, so I would accept that there is a different Arlathvhen for the clans of the Freemarches from those in Ferelden or Orlais. However, apparently the Keeper of Lavellan clan sending someone hundreds of miles to a human gathering doesn't seem odd to the writers, so why wouldn't Keepers of the clans in one area send an individual to represent them at the gathering in another one?
Yet, now it is a case, according to Solas, that there is no sense of unity among the clans or uniformity in culture or customs kept and thus any time things differ from what we have previously been told, the writers can now excuse it with the standard "the clans are growing apart with the years". Thus it would seem that Gisharel's desire to share his people's culture with human scholars so that they might better understand them was ultimately doomed because if every clan does things differently then there is nothing about specifically "Dalish" culture to appreciate..
I think you are way overestimating what Arlathvens are or can do for propagation of knowledge between clans. If they did, the Dalish wouldn't be so different between one another.
No, they have changed the relevance of the Arlathvhen since DAO and World of Thedas 1. It specifically says that the massive 10 year gathering of the clans is where "lore keepers exchange stories and knowledge.....old ways of the elves are celebrated... sad lessons of the destruction of both Arlathan and the Dales are also recounted and discussed. It is an important time for the clans, a show of unity for an otherwise isolated people."
Yet, now it is a case, according to Solas, that there is no sense of unity among the clans or uniformity in culture or customs kept and thus any time things differ from what we have previously been told, the writers can now excuse it with the standard "the clans are growing apart with the years". Thus it would seem that Gisharel's desire to share his people's culture with human scholars so that they might better understand them was ultimately doomed because if every clan does things differently then there is nothing about specifically "Dalish" culture to appreciate..
They have changed nothing. WOT1 is written from perspective of Thedosians and Thedosians more the like of Genitivi - the mainstream historians of their time - instead of Dalish insiders (we don't even have texts on yellow backgrounds that indicate different sources/excerpts than WOT 'writers'). The DAO codex however is known to be an internal Dalish source. You only get access to it if you play the Dalish Warden. So outsiders don't really know how contentious Arlathvens can be... and why should they? These are Dalish internal affairs.
That doesn't mean that Arlathvens aren't, at least in spirit, meant to be what they thought they are, or that they are of no use or something. But even the fact that there's a meeting once in maybe a decade of people scattered all across the continent can tell whose version of usual events is closer to actual truth.
Like, this isn't about the elves or the Dalish - in fact, if elves are just like other people, one can see how Arlathvens aren't really some miraculous meetings where the clans are able to seamlessly transfer their findings or traditions to one another (with 'regional' Arlathvens probably faring better than those where a lot of clans from distant places take part in).
The Dalish regard one of their main purposes in life is to keep the old customs alive and recover as much of their ancient history as they can. The Dalish regard one of their main purposes in life is to keep the old customs alive and recover as much of their ancient history as they can. Sharing what individual clans have discovered over the decade since the last Arlathvhen is an important part of this.
Yea, because each person in each group has exactly the same idea how to do that, right ? We all know that some of the most vicious conflicts stem from people in the same general group having very different ideas of how to achieve same goals. Wasn't a lot of DAI about this? At first, the Chantry has declared people like Cassandra and Leliana - both very devout - to be heretics!
And those decade-ish long periods in which most clans exist in their own bubbles can only exacerbate the issue. Distance and isolation do have their effect, even if we don't count in all active oppression and other obstacles.
Now I can see the logistics of clans travelling from all over Thedas doesn't really work, so I would accept that there is a different Arlathvhen for the clans of the Freemarches from those in Ferelden or Orlais. However, apparently the Keeper of Lavellan clan sending someone hundreds of miles to a human gathering doesn't seem odd to the writers, so why wouldn't Keepers of the clans in one area send an individual to represent them at the gathering in another one?
It's pointed in DAI, I think more than once, that clan Lavellan is unusual in what they did or how they are, which should tell us something about the differences existing between clans.
I mean, it's not like the Keeper of clan Lavellan has just decided to send some of important members of their clan (be it a First, or a capable warrior/hunter), but because she thinks the Conclave is of paramount importance and will impact the Dalish/elves in one way or another. Yet she was apparently one of the few - or only (unless we assume that other spies/envoys didn't make it or didn't reach the Temple of Sacred Ashes for whatever reason) - Keeper who's acted this way.
Last Edit: Jul 28, 2019 5:10:26 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Well there you go - that's the entirety of relevance of Dalish aravels: Isseya merely uses it to push her idea. Whether the aravels really floated or not is irrelevant. What matters is that she has a viable idea in a time of need and she believes it can be done.
Of course whether aravels really floated or not is irrelevant to the plot as written. What I was arguing is that it is clearly implied that the Dalish do use levitation magic or something similar on their aravels according the Isseya in the novel but this seems contrary to everything we know about aravels in game.
I'm not saying it should be regarded as part of the lore of Thedas that they do this but seeing as they introduced the idea in a novel and you also said that you thought it was likely something the ancient elves did, then all I am saying is that according to the novel the Dalish are already aware of this.
Yes, but I've hardly argued whether the Dalish are or aren't aware of this, but whether they're actually able to do this, especially across different modern clans. Maybe some of they can or could have had 400 years ago - we don't know, and don't see any Dalish method used to lift the caravans. Isseya has merely used the idea she head or saw somewhere to give her plan some legs and eventually succeeded in geting her rescue plan off the ground.
(going back to Arlathvens, especially those of centuries past - once can see how some clans may have not reached to share their knowledge, or some knowledge may have even been lost, because of all the Blight at the time)
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”